Why is Baltic Birch 5X5 instead of 4X8?

[Rich Engelhardt]

I know there has to be a reason that I'm too befuddled or addled to see.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Here is a cut and paste from the SMC archive.
Because BB is produced in countries using metric measurements and it is 1.5 meters x 1.5 meters and 12mm or 19mm thick. Not 5' x 5' and not 1/2" or 3/4" thick.

[George Bokros]

If I recall correctly from what I read is it originated in Europe and that is the size of their sheet goods.

From Maurice's post 1.5 meters converts to 4.92 ft.

[Paul F Franklin]

Some suppliers carry Baltic-like birch in 4 x 8 sheet sizes. Same general construction with uniform plies and no voids, just in US sheet sizes. No idea where it originates.

[jack duren]

It’s came in 4x8 and 4x6. Usually 4x6 will be only a few bundles of 4x6.

[Larry Edgerton]

5x5's work out great for cabinets when using adjustable feet. they also work out better for the 30" deep cabinets I often incorporate into kitchens. I like.

[John Pendery]

My local supplier carries both 4x8 and 5x5 Baltic birch in most thicknesses. Pretty sure I remember seeing the edge of the 4x8 stuff stamped with Russia, just like most 5x5 sheets, but could be wrong. I know some Baltic products are manufactured in Finland, and I assume across the entire “Baltic” region. Like Larry I usually prefer/buy 5x5 sheets. The 4x8 they stock around here are annoyingly a true 48”x96” as opposed to being slightly oversized for squaring up

[jack duren]

Many shops around here stopped using it because of the price..

[Christopher Herzog]

My supplier stopped carrying it. Too expensive and inconsistent sourcing. I miss it....

Chris

[Ray Selinger]

The Baltic birch I got was from Russia, which might explain the supply issue. It's metric. The supplier would have 4x8 sheets,as well as the 1.5m x 1.5m, but still in metric thickness . I got one of his last 12mm 4x8 sheets recently. Dado stacks aren't a problem, but router bits require a trip to the tool store.

[mike stenson]

Why would there be an imperial thickness?

[John TenEyck]

My supplier stopped carrying it. Too expensive and inconsistent sourcing. I miss it....

Chris

The price has come down to reasonable levels from my supplier, maybe 10% higher than pre-pandemic. He always had material in stock, too, but the quality was poor for a while. Check with your supplier again if you want/need some, or look for a new one, because it's available.

I've never seen 4 x 8 ft sheets with Cyrillic writing on it, only 1.5 x 1.5 m.

John

[Mark Wedel]

When I bought a bunch of baltic birch ~4 years ago, it was in 4x8 sheets and from Russia (Cyrillic writing on it)

More recently I've bought some, also in 4x8 sheets (different supplier), but it is coming from Vietnam or other place in SE Asia. Sort of blurs the meaning of 'Baltic'. But the material looks otherwise identical to the Russian material (same surface, no voids, etc). Price seems reasonable now - at one point, BB was selling for ~3x the price of the stuff I bought 4 years ago - now it might be more like 1.5x the price.

I do wonder if location has any impact on the source of the BB - I'm on the west coast, so importing from Asia vs Europe may make sense via shipping, but opposite might be true for east coast.

[John Pendery]

It’s strange how varied pricing and availability seem to have fluctuated from region to region here in the US since Russia invaded Ukraine. Prices here doubled for a short period and have since gone down considerably to what I consider normal and acceptable. Availability was never an issue from my closest supplier a few miles from my shop (Aetna). I was there a few days ago and they had stacks of it in every thickness from 3mm to 25mm

[Patty Hann]

For a while BB (at the supplier I use) was a little more than 2.5 X pre-pandemic pricing (PPP).
All 5x5 and typical metric thickness, [approx] 1/8" to 3/4".
It's come down to a little more than 2X PPP. It seems to be the same quality.
I don't like the price but I don't use much and (so far) I can still use it without breaking the budget.

[Earl McLain]

I hadn't looked in a while--place near me is now at $81 for 5 x 5 18mm ($78 for 4-9 sheets). I'm thinking that 18 months or so it was in the $150 range, but that is a fuzzy memory. Seems reasonably close to pre-pandemic and pre-war.

[roger wiegand]

This thread begs the question of why 4 x 8? When and how did building in the US standardize on doing things in 2 ft increments with 16 or 24" spacing? There's no indication in older houses that the spacing was anything other than whatever looked good to the carpenter involved, and plenty where there is no particular consistency within a single structure.

1.5 M square seems as sensible as any other measurement for cabinet plywood-- does it fit 32 mm cabinet dimensions particularly well? Construction in most of Europe uses vanishingly little sheet goods and US standard construction methods with stud walls is regarded as a very inferior method suitable only for temporary structures and cheap commercial space, if that. (Masonry and framing timbers being the norm)

[Warren Lake]

because they fit in the wallywagon.

[Bill Dufour]

Trees in the taiga are stunted and short. Much easier to get peeler logs 5 feet long then 8 feet. Especially if you are trying to get knot free wood.
BilL D

[Simon Dupay]

I believe the Finn's equipment was 5x5 when they where teaching the Russians how to make plywood is why they made 5x5 (btw they also make 4x8 too)

[Larry Edgerton]

My local supplier carries both 4x8 and 5x5 Baltic birch in most thicknesses. Pretty sure I remember seeing the edge of the 4x8 stuff stamped with Russia, just like most 5x5 sheets, but could be wrong. I know some Baltic products are manufactured in Finland, and I assume across the entire “Baltic” region. Like Larry I usually prefer/buy 5x5 sheets. The 4x8 they stock around here are annoyingly a true 48”x96” as opposed to being slightly oversized for squaring up

John, look for Columbia. I use it in prefinished maple and it is 96.5 x 48.5 and pretty consistent.

[Larry Edgerton]

The Baltic birch I got was from Russia, which might explain the supply issue. It's metric. The supplier would have 4x8 sheets,as well as the 1.5m x 1.5m, but still in metric thickness . I got one of his last 12mm 4x8 sheets recently. Dado stacks aren't a problem, but router bits require a trip to the tool store.

I take my old 3/4 bits in to a sharpening shop and they grind them to fit metric. I know you can buy metric, but this is almost free and I can have them in small increments to fit whatever.

[Larry Edgerton]

Full lift pricing for 4x8 3/4" BB/BB is currently $98. 10+ is $107 Just before Covid I was paying $57 full lift and $65 full lift for Columbia 3/4 prefinished maple 2 sides. I have not bought any since as I bought several lifts just before Covid, but it says "Call for price" which always makes me flinch. I am almost out, so I will know soon.

[John Pendery]

John, look for Columbia. I use it in prefinished maple and it is 96.5 x 48.5 and pretty consistent.


Larry, yes I also get Columbia pure bond prefinished maple a lot for cabinet interiors. I guess I was just trying to say that the 4x8 Baltic birch throws me for a loop being undersized compared to the Columbia products you point out.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry, yes I also get Columbia pure bond prefinished maple a lot for cabinet interiors. I guess I was just trying to say that the 4x8 Baltic birch throws me for a loop being undersized compared to the Columbia products you point out.

Ah, got ya. I hate finishing or I would use baltic for everything.

[John Pendery]

Ah, got ya. I hate finishing or I would use baltic for everything.

Larry, I completely agree. I would too, as I feel baltic is superior in every way except that I have to finish it! I too hate finishing…

[Jimmy Harris]

When I bought a bunch of baltic birch ~4 years ago, it was in 4x8 sheets and from Russia (Cyrillic writing on it)

More recently I've bought some, also in 4x8 sheets (different supplier), but it is coming from Vietnam or other place in SE Asia. Sort of blurs the meaning of 'Baltic'. But the material looks otherwise identical to the Russian material (same surface, no voids, etc). Price seems reasonable now - at one point, BB was selling for ~3x the price of the stuff I bought 4 years ago - now it might be more like 1.5x the price.

I do wonder if location has any impact on the source of the BB - I'm on the west coast, so importing from Asia vs Europe may make sense via shipping, but opposite might be true for east coast.

It's probably still coming from Russia, but routed through Vietnam and relabeled there for export. I'm not sure that it's totally legal, but it's a pretty common practice in lots of stuff these days, in order to avoid tariffs or other restrictions. Basically, everyone puts a little money in their pocket to look the other way and business still gets done.

I mean, there aren't many, if any, birch trees growing in Vietnam. It's too warm there. Certainly not enough to support the export of it.

https://us.eia.org/report/20220930-russian-conflict-birch/

[Warren Lake]

think I was told past the materials were sent to china and then made there. They have been buying our logs for 40 years and slicing thinner venner than we can.

This is a common thing, told Hardwood floors past made in quebec then rough material sent to china and made there and shipped back. They told me it was cheaper than here which is hard to fathom considering all the travel and back and forth. I was told by a supplier once there were even some shops on boats. I remember that as he said junk was dumped in the ocean. Maybe that stopped.

Nothing new how many tools past made in the US are made off shore.

Pretty sure I was told past the baltic birch was inconsistent as it was not always made in the same place even if the materials came from baltic states Latvia Estonia and Russia. Was told The trees grow harder and denser there from the cold. I can accept that as the red oak I bought from Michigan was different than the red oak from Pennsyvannia. At one point buying from both places and machining at the same time.

[Mark Wedel]

I know that offshoring of the production is what has resulted in a lot of lumbermills on the west coast shutting down. Instead of the material being milled here and then shipped out, raw logs were being shipped out and processed in Asia.

It used to be (and probably still is) that shipping stuff from US to Asia was fairly cheap, because the ships (and containers) had to return to Asia anyways to pick up whatever the US was importing, so there was excess capacity in that direction. So it just becomes an analysis of does the lower production cost offset more than the shipping cost, and in most cases, the answer seems to be yes.