Graule ZS135 Radial Arm Saw voltage question

[Brian Holcombe]

Recently purchased this Graule at auction in Germany, it went for cheap but import and shipping resolved that bargain aspect pretty quickly.

I'm rather unsure of what the voltage is, the tags seem to be giving mixed signals. I wrote the company, but I expect it'll be a while before they provide any insight.

517656 517657517658

[mike stenson]

I take this back, that's a pretty damaged plate.

Ingress protection (IP) is 7,5a/400v

[Edward Weber]

https://www.graule.de/en/radial-arm-saw/zs-135-n

single phase is 230
three phase is 400

[Brian Holcombe]

Interesting, I want to say I've seen some of these machines market 230v/380v so I'm not sure they have always been divided up into 1ph/3ph

[mike stenson]

Since the EU uses wye, it's 230 L(x) to neutral and 380 L1, L2, L3. I've seen a lot of equipment that can do either.

[Edward Weber]

Just a little reference chart
https://www.wpowerproducts.com/power-generation-resources/voltages-and-frequencies-by-country/

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, the machine tag on this is gone, likely from having the dust chute replaced at some point.

Here is a similar listing for a similar machine (not the same) which shows dual voltage, just like you are saying.

https://www.hoechsmann.com/en/77124 (https://www.hoechsmann.com/en/77124)

Im tempted to plug it into 230v/60hz 3ph and see if it has full power, but I may wait a few days and see what kind of info I can dredge up.

[mike stenson]

At worse case, it'd be like it lost a couple legs. Safer as trying to shove 380v down a circuit configured for 230 :D

The one you posted is the same type at least. What does the power whip connections look like in the box?

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s starting to occur to me, and you and Edward have suggested this, that 230v in Europe is only single phase. If that’s the case, I would think this might need a capacitor, but rather I would just run a vfd and leave it at 380v.

Im going to open up the box soon and take note of how it’s connected.

[Edward Weber]

It’s starting to occur to me, and you and Edward have suggested this, that 230v in Europe is only single phase. If that’s the case, I would think this might need a capacitor, but rather I would just run a vfd and leave it at 380v.

Im going to open up the box soon and take note of how it’s connected.

Europe is also 50hz, here in the states it's 60hz.
I think you're going to need some type of step down transformer.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m confused on the input voltage, If I can get it running on 230v three phase, I plan to use a VFD and will plug in 50hz. If the swap to 230v requires single phase, then I will find another path forward.

[mike stenson]

Europe is also 50hz, here in the states it's 60hz.
I think you're going to need some type of step down transformer.

Transformers don't impact frequency.

[mike stenson]

It’s starting to occur to me, and you and Edward have suggested this, that 230v in Europe is only single phase. If that’s the case, I would think this might need a capacitor, but rather I would just run a vfd and leave it at 380v.

Im going to open up the box soon and take note of how it’s connected.

Correct, 230v is single phase. It's a single line (brown generally, may be black or grey) and neutral (blue).

[Bill Dufour]

Hate to be obvious but single phase will only have two hot wires with a ground wire. Three phase will have three hot wires with a ground.
In Europe I think ground is often green with yellow stripe. Meter it out to be sure.
BilL D.
https://usa.p3connectors.com/electrical-wiring-colors/

[mike stenson]

Hate to be obvious but single phase will only have two hot wires with a ground wire. Three phase will have three hot wires with a ground.
In Europe I think ground is often green with yellow stripe. Meter it out to be sure.
BilLD

Single phase delta will. Europe uses, the vast majority, single phase wye. Which is a single hot and a neutral.

Grounds are indeed green/yellow.

[Rod Sheridan]

Brian, the machine nameplate is 400V, 50Hz, 3 phase which is a standard 3 phase voltage in Europe

You’re going to need a VFD that can produce that from a 240 v single phase input, or use a suitable transformer on the VFD input

Regards, Rod

[Brian Holcombe]

Some me of the Hitachi WJ200 400v series are rated for 380-480v single phase input. Which I assume can be created with a transformer.

https://www.hitachi-ies.co.jp/english/products/inv/wj200/specification.htm

Any thoughts on this?

[andrew whicker]

This is your motor, my man (Hanning H8J2-171):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125973328422

3 phase, 380v, 4.9A, 50 Hz (oops : )

[Mark Gibney]

Can't help you on the electrical questions, but I'd like to know why you sourced a RAS in Europe?
You like good machines, is this one better / different to a good ol' Merican RAS?

[Matt Tebo]

Brian,

I think the black box is the motor starter and it has different ampacities at 400 vs 230v. The second pic shows the motor tag, 400v, 50 hz.

matt

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, gents! Andrew, I think it’s 380v but the tag is just worn looking.

Mark, I like the compact format of this saw combined with the very sturdy build. The overall dimensions are pretty tiny, but it’s all cast, sturdy as heck and it can cut 5.314” x 16.92”

The next size up can handle 6.7” and the largest saw can handle 7.8”

By comparison a Unipoint will cut 4.5” thick

The Omga radial arm can handle 3.5” or 4.5”

I often build with 5” thick material, so I wanted something that could handle it in one pass without taking up tons of space.

[andrew whicker]

you are correct sir!


Thanks, gents! Andrew, I think it’s 380v but the tag is just worn looking.

Mark, I like the compact format of this saw combined with the very sturdy build. The overall dimensions are pretty tiny, but it’s all cast, sturdy as heck and it can cut 5.314” x 16.92”

The next size up can handle 6.7” and the largest saw can handle 7.8”

By comparison a Unipoint will cut 4.5” thick

The Omga radial arm can handle 3.5” or 4.5”

I often build with 5” thick material, so I wanted something that could handle it in one pass without taking up tons of space.

[Mark Gibney]

That's impressive capacity. How do you find out about all these top-of-the-line machines?
Rhetorical question!

[John Pendery]

I’ve been on the lookout for a Graule for sale in the states for years and haven’t seen one yet. I’ve been afraid of importing machines more from paranoia of damage during transit than anything else. Congrats on a sweet saw! I’d sell my Omga in a heartbeat if I could get my hands on one of these! Increased depth of cut would be a huge benefit, and I never come close to using the crosscut capacity of my RN700.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Mark! I mostly here about these types of things from Joe Calhoun

John, I tried to find one in the US for a while and gave up. I bought this one at auction with Höchsmann in Klipphausen, they are a little difficult to communicate with, but they did all of the stuff that needed doing. They sourced air freight for me and communicated with my import broker.

The cost of shipping wasn’t much more than freight within the US and they crated the machine for me very well.

[Rod Sheridan]

Some me of the Hitachi WJ200 400v series are rated for 380-480v single phase input. Which I assume can be created with a transformer.

https://www.hitachi-ies.co.jp/english/products/inv/wj200/specification.htm

Any thoughts on this?

Sure, except they are far too large for your saw.

Regards, Rod

[Edward Weber]

Transformers don't impact frequency.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough
A step down transformer and frequency convertor.
These are not that uncommon with European tools being brought to the U.S.
Here is just a rough example

https://www.vevor.com/variable-transformer-c_10755/vevor-step-up-down-transformer-voltage-converter-2100w-240v-110v-110v-240v-us-uk-p_010874527238?adp=gmc&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=20324005678&utm_term=&gad_source=1

[Brian Holcombe]

https://youtu.be/TC1S5MU0WTQ?si=s7WtG4v57srDFnHo

This is a good look at these types of saws,

[John Pendery]

Brian, interesting and good to know. For import machines do you get around the 50 Hz thing by just planning ahead on running them with a VFD? I have a couple old simple machines with VFD’s, but run the majority of my machines with phase perfect generated three phase. I assume this would be problematic on machines with a lot of electronics and motors designed for 50Hz?

[Warren Lake]

video clipped at 30 seconds as the saw auto feeds towards the operator. As the past british guy taught us use a straight arm and that wont happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l2mwResyvA

[Edward Weber]

video clipped at 30 seconds as the saw auto feeds towards the operator. As the past british guy taught us use a straight arm and that wont happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l2mwResyvA

The video Brian linked to, the Geaule ZS135, has a cable that pulls the saw back. Adjusted properly, the saw can not self feed. MANY Ras's have this feature, that go by different names.
Return mechanism, recoil mechanism, Automatic reversal spring, etc.

The video you linked to is a Stromab US12 RAS, it has a "Spring-operated carriage return"

If the saw is auto feeding, the return mechanism is not adjusted properly.
There is no need for the straight arm technique, unless that's what makes you comfortable.

[Warren Lake]

really ?

the one I posted has a cable and the saw took off.

If a cable could stop a saw from auto feeding then you could not pull it out. It took off cause of his technique, wrong blade maybe didnt look. Even if the right right blade it was still took off and thats why they cut the video. I saw the saw start to accelerate, I didnt have the sound on. most of the time you get a warning, sometimes not much.

I put the video on the one i posted and this time with the sound on, can hear it as well. Radials in shops ive worked in or been in didnt have cables either way the saw took off at 30 seconds showing the cable doesnt hold it back.

[Joe Calhoon]

The Graule with the horizontal handle would be difficult to operate straight arm. Not necessary's anyway. These saws have a positive feed different from other radials I’ve used. In addition to the return spring mine has hydraulic damping. I have it turned way down and would only use it if cutting a lot of rough lumber. That’s where you can get in trouble with radials. Cutting rough thick lumber if bow keeps it from being tight to the fence. These saws are very accurate for cutting well planed material. They are also used a lot for cutting aluminum.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, Doing some reading on this and sounds like a 380v IEC motor is wired in wye. My understanding is that the delta configuration for that runs on 220v.

I found this info on the Mike Holt forum by contributor Jraef
”In the IEC motor world, more specifically Great Britain (and Australia / New Zealand), THEY use Delta or Wye winding configurations for voltage changing. A 380/220V motor is connected with its windings in "Star" (Wye) for 380V line supply, Delta for 220V (380 / 1.732 = 220). Their system essentially rates the motor based on the Delta configuration as well, but because you are changing the applied voltage, the power remains the same. We don't do that here in the US because we don't have the same ratios of voltage supplies.”

So, I plan to open up the peckerhead and take a detailed look at the wiring configuration.

[andrew whicker]

You may not have an option to re-wire the motor by simply moving the dog bone connectors in the motor. If the motor is hardwired (3 connector) for Wye, I believe you are stuck with Wye. The motor data plate on the eBay motor doesn't make sense to me... someone smarter can chime in, but none of the calculators I used seem to match the data plate... (using 0.85 power factor). Regardless, the data plate ONLY shows one voltage and amperage so I would think the motor is hardwired. All the motors I've seen w/ LV and HV tell you on the data plate.

From my personal experience, I have three 3 phase motors: one is direct wired (3 wire), one is a 6 connector and one is a 9 connector. There are also 12 connector motors. The 3 connector motor is HV only and my shop has LV (Delta.. 208v or 220v, can't remember).. so I'm effectively slowly burning the motor up, but it was a super cheap dust collector so I don't mind. And the HP is low enough that the additional amperage I'm putting thru the motor is hopefully negligible.

I think theoretically it's better to use a higher voltage than rated vs using a lower voltage than rated (due to additional heat added by additional amperage). However, arcing can also be a problem w/ higher voltage.

Anyway, I'm no expert. Just some guy who has gone down this rabbit hole before. My advice is free and probably worth about the same : )

https://control.com/technical-articles/3-phase-motor-wiring-infographic/

[Brian Holcombe]

Andrew, I greatly appreciate your insights and the conversation going here, it’s incredibly helpful to be able to ask a question as abstract as this one and spit ball potential answers.

I think this could be quite helpful for anyone considering going down this rabbit hole.

From what I can find, The saws are typically labeled for dual voltage even though the motors are not. The part that carries the machine tag was likely damaged at some point and replaced (it’s a different color).

So, in any case, I’ll do some sleuthing today and take some photos of what’s under the peckerhead.

[andrew whicker]

I also enjoy "power electronics" more than I should. Learning it is fun for me. I'm curious what you find.

I did find this online and I think it does match your data plate and it makes more sense to me given what you posted above from another forum. I.e. the difference btwn line and phase voltage. And the power lines up pretty well w/ the given amperage and voltage.


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Good stuff! Really would be interested what you actually receive.

edit: fixed the phase angle in calculator

[Brian Holcombe]

Here is what’s inside the peckerhead.

517789

There are 6 wires, but one appears to be a neutral and another appears to be a ground.

[Brian Holcombe]

Opened up the motor, this is what I found:

517801517802

[mike stenson]

I know some motors can be configured either way. I don't know about this specific one.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m going to remove part of the insulation and find out if it can be wired in delta. If not, I’ve got a few avenues of recourse, I can get it rewound 240v or wait and see if they sell a new motor in 240v 3ph. I’m waiting to hear back on a replacement for the broken housing end and fan cover.

[Rod Sheridan]

The 2 extra wires may be a thermal overload switch, that’s fairly common in those motors

Regards, Rod

[Chris Parks]

I have a lot of experience both with VFD's and running motors over and under speed due to the electrical power supply hz. The 10hz difference on Brian's saw will not be a problem and the only noticeable change will be the blade speed. My Clearvue with the original Leeson US sourced motor has been running at 70hz for years and every Clearvue sold in Australia runs 50hz motors at 60hz or more. Our grid runs at 50hz which is a problem with dust extractors as it means a 33% or thereabouts reduction if motor speed.

[Brian Holcombe]

I put in an order with the OEM for a new motor (and some other parts) in a larger size (3kw) that is wired 240v 60hz 3ph.

[Brian Holcombe]

Little paint, fix a part, wha-lah

518356518357

[andrew whicker]

Get it!

Turns out the woodshop a few blocks from me has a 90's version and the owner was telling me about it. He did say he quit using keyed blades because the motor stopped so suddenly that it would unspin the blade nut I think? It's been a while since we've talked about it. But he just uses a standard round hole in the blades.

[Brian Holcombe]

These are just a standard 30mm arbor with a left hand bolt.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brian, thank you for letting me tag along on your motor order! Just installed the new three phase motor and wow what a difference! Snaps on instantly, cutting like butter on a 5X 8” timber. The single phase motor was very weak on any 8/4 hardwoods. The other nice thing is this one has a brake.
my saw originally came from Mahogany Masterpieces back in the 80s. The Europeans do not do well with single phase motors. The ones I have overheat badly.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Joe! Glad to hear it!

I think the original single phase motors in this case are actually a 3ph motor with a capacitor on one leg, so it cuts the HP down a bunch.

[Joe Calhoon]

I wonder if that is the case with my Hema Bandsaw Brian? It also originally came from Mahogany Masterpieces with a single phase motor from Europe. It is slow starting and tends to run hot also.

[Brian Holcombe]

Certainly could be the case.

When I received my super surfacer from the previous owner, someone had rigged up the 3ph motor with a start and run capacitor and over stamped the name plate with a 1. I could not figure out how they originally wired it, so ultimately replaced it with a newer 3ph motor since it was an easy swap.

It seems this was a common treatment.