Hybrid Tablesaw Alternatives

[Andy Haney]

Also posted on another forum. Sorry for the repetition for those of you visiting both places.

I decided to check this out at the WW Show last weekend, and was a little disappointed in what I found. I would like to reduce the footprint in the garage for storage purposes. I'm stuck with something like this (hybrid) if I buy now due to power supply limitations I'm unwilling to overcome. If necessary, I can live with what's here until I grow up and get a "real" shop.

Delta and General had their saws at the show but, according to the reps on the floor, both have tabletop mounted trunnions. I may be mistaken, but I consider that to be a contractor's saw with the motor hanging below, nothing more. Please let me know if that's an over-simplification.

I've sent a copy of the Grizzly G0478 owner's manual to the printer, and will try to evaluate that machine based on their book.

The newer Craftsman saws have cabinet mounted trunnions, and look to me to be a pretty solid buy.

What other alternatives are there to be evaluated? Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Jim Becker]

The Hybrid saws basically all have table mounted trunions like a contractors' style saw. I'm not familiar with the Craftsman that you mention, but if the trunions are mounted to the cabinet with a floating table top...that's a cabient saw. (Has nothing to do with the hp of the motor, although the hybrids and contractors' style saws are almost always below 1 3/4 hp, both for torque and electrical reasons.

There really isn't anything wrong with starting with a quality contractors' style saw or one of the current hybrids...a great percentage of us have done that. If you don't have the ability to supply 240v power, they will be your best choice, IMHO. Buy quality with a good fence...or consider a used unit from someone moving up as an interim step to a larger machine later when you can support it.

[scott spencer]

Hi Andy - Contractor saws were originally intended to be an accurate portable alternative to bringing field work back to the shop where there was usually a stationary saw like a cabinet saw. The motors hang out the back for easy removal for transport, but the saws are still pretty heavy to relocate from site to site. With the invention and improvements to portable jobsites saws, the conventional contractor saw design is becoming more obsolete. Traditional contractor saws are rarely used for field use now, and instead are typically used as stationary saws in small shops like that of a hobbyist....they're capable, affordable, and reliable. The motor out the back has always made dust collection somewhat difficult, and has always made the overall footprint of the saw larger than the standard table area. It also makes storage a bit more difficult. There's also some risk of hitting things with the motor while bevelling the blade, which can skew the alignment. Table mounted trunnions have always been more difficult to align than those of a cabinet saw because they're harder to reach, and they tend to not hold alignment as well as a cabinet saw. Another issue with some contractor saws is a tendency for heeling due to twisting of the connecting rods in part from the motor being cantilevered out the back.

The pure hybrids have addressed the footprint and DC issues with the full enclosure, but there are other benefits as well. The internal motor not only takes up less space, it also uses a shorter drive belt which has lower vibration and improved power transfer. They all still use table mounted trunnions but virtually all that use connecting rods offer larger diameter connecting rods than those found on a contractor saw, and the motor isn't cantilevered so the potential for heeling is reduced. The DeWalt, GI and Grizzly all use a cast blade shroud instead of connecting rods which reduce heeling too. The Sears models are not true hybrids in the sense that they use cabinet mounted trunnions like a cabinet saw, but they're not the massive industrial duty types you'll find on a General 650. They appear similar in duty to the hybrids with connecting rods, but are slightly larger to accomodate the span. I'd love to see those with cast blade shrouds add cabinet mountedt trunnions or vice-versa. The hybrids, and especially the Sears versions, offer more mass than a conventional contractor saw. High end contractor saws like the GI and PM weigh in at around 300#. The Craftsman 22124 weighs 425# and is more stable than any contractor saw I've encountered while having more footroom near the base. The 22114 weighs around 385#. There are currently hybrids of some form out by DeWalt, Jet, Delta, GI, Grizzly, Craftsman, and Hitachi, plus others we may not currently see in the US, and are priced from ~ $400 to upwards of $1500 equipped with sliders and long rails. I suspect we'll be seeing more and more of these designs to replace contractor saws in the future.

So while the hybrids and the Craftsman "home duty cabinet" saws (or however you want to classify them) certainly won't keep pace in an industrial shop with a full 3-5hp PM66 or Unisaw, they fill a niche for many home shops by eliminating some of the primary issues of a contractor saw, offer many of the advantages of a cabinet saw, and still usually run on a standard 110v circuit. With the correct blade, most users find there's plenty of power, although obviously not on par with most of the bigger motors. I've ripped 3" hard maple on my 22124 with a 24T FTG TK DeWalt and Leitz blade at a fairly fast clip, and overall I find it has many advantages over a contractor saw. At this stage of my life and my wwing needs, I just can't justify the difference in price for a full cabinet saw vs what I paid for the 22124.

[Andy Haney]

Guess I wasn't clear enough, Jim. I do have a CS. It is a 1980(ish) Emerson made Craftsman with PALS and segmented belt. It does alright, but is still a pain to adjust after any attempts at angled cuts.

I'd rather have something more reliable. I want something better, but don't have the space I want for a shop now. I expect to be moving (at least to a different house) when/if I retire in a handful of years. That place WILL HAVE space for a dedicated shop!

I've only read good things on the boards about the new C'man, a lot of that from Scott's posts, and was just looking to see what realistic alternatives are out there, for now.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Andy

[Michael Ballent]

I am afraid that there are not too many choices out there... The hybrids are pretty new to the market and so there aren't too many choices out there. They are all 15Amps or less and will run on 110/220v depending on how you decide to get them wired up. I had the Dewalt 746 early during their introduction and was very happy with it, I have since upgraded to a SawStop cabinet saw and it still does the same work as my old Dewalt, only I do not have to worry about binding the blade and blowing the circuit. Now my concern is kickback and that hunk-o-wood flying back at me since I am pretty sure that it will not bind up and blow the circuit. ;) If you are happy with what you have then I do not see a need to upgrade. The PALs system is pretty nice. I can say that aligning the Dewalt was a piece of cake compared to my friend's Powermatic 64a. I must have spent over 2 hours trying to dial that thing in and it would just shift around. On the Dewalt it was about 30 minutes and it stay like that for 6+ months.

The reason for the upgrade was the LOML decided that it was more important for me to have all my fingers than a new MM16 :o Still a pretty good deal in the long run. Otherwise I would still have that Dewalt :) Good luck on your search.



Guess I wasn't clear enough, Jim. I do have a CS. It is a 1980(ish) Emerson made Craftsman with PALS and segmented belt. It does alright, but is still a pain to adjust after any attempts at angled cuts.

I'd rather have something more reliable. I want something better, but don't have the space I want for a shop now. I expect to be moving (at least to a different house) when/if I retire in a handful of years. That place WILL HAVE space for a dedicated shop!

I've only read good things on the boards about the new C'man, a lot of that from Scott's posts, and was just looking to see what realistic alternatives are out there, for now.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Andy

[Doug Shepard]

Guess I wasn't clear enough, Jim. I do have a CS. It is a 1980(ish) Emerson made Craftsman with PALS and segmented belt. It does alright, but is still a pain to adjust after any attempts at angled cuts.
...


Are you the guy that bought my old saw? If the fence is also never parallel unless you measure and tweak both fore and aft of the blade about 6 times each - then it must be you.:D
Anyway - take a look at the shorter fence versions of some of the cabinet saws. I didn't have room for a full sized cabinet saw when I upgraded either. I ended up getting the 30" fence version of the Powermatic 66. It's more or less about the same footprint as my old Craftsman. Overall it's maybe a few inches longer, but it has a shallower depth due to the motor not hanging out the back.

[Bill Fields]

Scott Spencer said it all-but here's my story. My shop is taking up 2 of the three bays in a 3-car garage. BUT, I needed to shrink it down to just one bay whhen I have to.

I bought the Hitachi CF 10L about a year ago---$499 at Lowes--compared this to the Jet contractor saw for same price.

After modifying it, I can say it works well for me:
-replaced belt w/ linked belt
-Designed remote guard release-no need to get inside the saw for this
-Discarded included retractable casters-built mobile base instead
-Designed "quick-release" rear panel so I can lift off the panel and replace in seconds
-Last week--researched, and ordered from HF, pair of CI ext. wings, replacing the stamped steel wings. Measuring/drilling/tapping involved.

Hitachi should do all these things and charge another 100 bucks or so.

Good points:
-Dust collection adequate--comparable to a low-end cabinet saw
-15 amps off a TEFC motor - adequate for 3/4 ply
-low runout on arbor/blade- +/- .010" or better
-good location and design for OFF "slam-switch"
-good riving knife (I sharpened mine) and anti-kickback pawls
-Adequate heft--weighs about 300#
-Good customer support from Hitachi America


Poor:

-Retractable casters (fixed)
-flimsy base--2 gauges thicker is required--think $7 more retail
-clumsy guard/riving knife remove-replace (fixed)



Since I got the EZ GUide System, this saw and my radial arm saw will get even less use--especially on sheet goods.


Good luck on your choices. Having a large and dedicated shop area changes things. Considering the time and effort I spent on making a "silk" purse out of a sow's ear--well--maybe I should have done something else.

But--I don't think so--I'm happy with this saw.

BILL FIELDS

[tim walker]

I have a Powermatic 64A and it is a royal pain to align, and I have the PALS system. Of course I want it to 0.001" tolerance. MAybe its me that is being stuborn and not the machine. AND I will never try a beveled cut again. I had it aligned twice, and nect thing I knew after attempting a 45 bevel was that it was 0.1" out. And hours getting it back in line. Next saw will definitely be a cabinet saw. Its not worth the trouble (for this saw anyway) and I now have 220 30A circuit to work with. Anyone know what the alrgest HP saw that can run on that without a problem? Was thinking 3 HP. My MM16 runs without issue on that.

Thanks all,

tim in Houston

[Charlie Plesums]

I went from a contractor saw to a combination machine with 8 1/2 foot sliding table, 16 inch jointer, etc. I can still occasionally get one car in the two car garage. You can do it too! Space shouldn't be the primary issue if you plan VERY carefully. Let's not discuss cost, though.

[Michael Ballent]

Remember Amps x Voltage = Watts

Watts / 746 = HP

So in your case the theoritical max HP you could have:

220v x 30amps = 6,600 Watts
6,600 Watts / 746 = 8.847 HP

Now that is absolute max HP you can expect, but that does not take into account startup draw, efficiency of the motor yada yada ...


I have a Powermatic 64A and it is a royal pain to align, and I have the PALS system. Of course I want it to 0.001" tolerance. MAybe its me that is being stuborn and not the machine. AND I will never try a beveled cut again. I had it aligned twice, and nect thing I knew after attempting a 45 bevel was that it was 0.1" out. And hours getting it back in line. Next saw will definitely be a cabinet saw. Its not worth the trouble (for this saw anyway) and I now have 220 30A circuit to work with. Anyone know what the alrgest HP saw that can run on that without a problem? Was thinking 3 HP. My MM16 runs without issue on that.

Thanks all,

tim in Houston