Transition to brushing WB

[Kent A Bathurst]

I got to be pretty good at brushing on OB finishes, but it did take a long learning curve, and trials of different brushes to get there. Our relocate/downsize to a condo canceled the VOC options, and nuked any chance to start with spraying.

Had a lot of difficulty making the transition to brushing WB. GF Endurovar and Hi-Perf both were problematic with brush strokes. Could not get around the problem, even trying different foam applicators and different brushes. Got better, but still not there. Got a lot of good assistance in various threads here, but I couldn't make it happen.

And so - Based on comments in another thread here, I changed products again - sampled both Minwax Oil-Modified and Polycrylic on the underside of a cherry table top. Switched brushes, again, to Purdy Nylox [clear improvement - for me - over Purdy Syntox and the Lee Valley nylon bristle].

And - added 3%-4% by volume of GF Enduro Extender [left over from my earlier dances with the GF finishes]

I went with the Polycrylic on the good side. I'm getting zero residual brush strokes on the cured finish. I also don't have to worry about finishing the underside - plenty of coveraget by different products there.

I am confident that there are a lotta folks here that can do much better than I, but I finally got to a happy place. Thanks to all who answered my questions along the way.

[John TenEyck]

Good for you, Kent, to do the work to find a solution that works for you. What I found with the Minwax Oil Modified Poly is that you have to apply it very, very thinly, about 180 degrees from most OB varnishes. I use a foam brush and get zero brush marks.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thx John

Your comments in some other thread led me to the oil-mod poly and the polycrylic so grateful there

I’ll give the foam brushes a test drive on those two, but they kinda freak me out. Must need an incantation and incense

Regards

[roger wiegand]

I found that the Grammercy brushes for waterborne finishes (https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-WBBRU.XX/Gramercy+Tools+Finishing+Brushes+for+Waterborne+Fi nishes) made a huge difference in my ability to use these finishes (mostly Emtech products for me, including some of the "spray only" versions for small things). Pricey, but way better than any other brush I've ever used. Same kind of experience as switching to their natural bristle brush for shellac, which is beyond amazing. I've been using my shellac brush several times a week for the last four years and it still seems good as new, so their brushes can last a good long time. Yes, at those prices you need to wash it out rather than throw it away!

I've had essentially no success with foam brushes of any sort with any finish, so I've quit trying to use them.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Roger - note in my opening sentence "trials of different brushes" for OB. Those are the Grammercy OB set. Huge improvement over everything else. $$$$ - but you get what you pay for.

I have a 1" and 3" Nylox, went looking for a 2" Grammercy - as your link shows, out of stock. I contacted them. They "needed to switch suppliers" whatever that means. The replacement source is "getting close" but not there yet.

I'm with you - had there been a 2", I'd have it - no questions asked. My current prohect is a 40" x 40" table top, so the 3" is the correct size. The Nylox is doing fine, so no need to get another, but rather than get a 2" Nylox, I'll wait for a bit on Grammercy.

[John TenEyck]

Kent, have you looked into Rubio Monocoat or Osmo Polyox? No brush required; in fact, nothing more than a little plastic spreader and white non-woven pad. Nothing is easier to apply. Neither has much odor. They are not traditional film finishes but both are very durable, and stupid simple to repair if needed.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

John - nope. I only became aware of these products in the last couple years ( sidelined for reasons outside my control). I had been assuming there would be the standard odors from oil-based finishes. Not the case, eh? I’ll have to fire up my brain’s ponder cells

[John TenEyck]

John - nope. I only became aware of these products in the last couple years ( sidelined for reasons outside my control). I had been assuming there would be the standard odors from oil-based finishes. Not the case, eh? I’ll have to fire up my brain’s ponder cells

RM, in particular, has almost no odor and is VOC free. It's nothing like traditional wipe on varnishes, in any way. Osmo PolyOx has some VOC, but the odor is minimal to me.

John

[Rob Sack]

In regards to foam brushes, they vary in quality. The big box stores carry brushes with a more open foam and they do not work as well as the ones I get from commercial supply houses. These brushes seem to have foam that is considerably denser and they leave a much better finish. They also hold more finish.

[Kent A Bathurst]

RM, in particular, has almost no odor and is VOC free. It's nothing like traditional wipe on varnishes, in any way.
John


OK - something is simply not clicking for me. I don't "get it" on the RM info I read.

Is it one part? Two parts? What is Part A only? What is 2C? When-where-why-how. I'm generally pretty clever, but not here.

Can I fill grain with, say, AquaCoat first? Use Rennaissance wax after? Or maybe this is a "me only" type of finish.

Ima get me a sample/20ml size and drive it around the block, but I'd prefer to be less ignorant first.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Kent, the primary Rubio Monocoat is two part; there's the finish (2C or the new higher sheen version) and there's a catalyst part B that you put a very small amount in to help it cure much faster. The mix isn't critical, either. RM and Osmo Polyx are about the easiest finishes that you can find for hand-application. If you want to try it out, you can buy the smallest size off Amazon in the color you want to try (Natural or one of the many with tinting) for about thirty bucks and it will cover a LOT of ground because the actual application is so sparing for a coat. I'm not normally a fan of oil based finishes (other than BLO on decorative items) and have been very enamored with the results I got with RM on two pieces I made for our older daughter recently. I mostly use waterborne finishes and spray them, just to level set, and primarily Target Coatings products.

[John TenEyck]

Kent, you can only use RM's stains underneath it. No filler of any kind. No need for wax afterwards; in fact, it would get in the way if repair is needed. So, yes, it's a "me only" type finish. Try it. You'll more than like it, especially on walnut and other dark woods. This was done with RM Pure, one coat:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP-VociYyBIzzAmT9DkG-Njt9uK3E_9zTLQjZ1gR52jL4LlRNYit-DPUXOLcamatiTh9hOXM-q5V3IjA9f1VOYA1UeJgWdZoCfQZrgSQekGkrDqv3BIZ9sodZe7 NPv28FCnrjo6ZEYAGcze-s1xYuFarg=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1


And this piece was done with Osmo PolyOx, two coats.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP9ykpRCzqdsWFwPzzREfZ6Zx1cCDkkXKQKT6Hk2YG65p 1dGFGyTxFe6PWb9uVtnHaFiXHO6Pbd0CfKb3E68aMfBR_niVgY fuTH8UW75FZTGLYSbIuevNLuC34firE2ecF6lmQnWDeUu3M0MG Rr2iUcZw=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1



John

[roger wiegand]

My first use of RM was on our curly maple kitchen island, which gets seriously used and abused (though not cut directly on)-- lots of water, foods that stain, and black iron stains from my pans and cleaver. 18 months in it's holding up very well, way better than the pure tung oil I'd used in previous refinishings. It seems to stain less and I'm able to get most of the stains out (eg with Bartender's Friend on the iron, a bleach-containing cleanser for the food stains) more successfully. Not bulletproof, but way more robust than I might have expected. I'm impressed. Two coats on the 42 x 108" surface used well less than a half-pint can of finish, so while the initial price was shocking it really does go a long way.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Uncle

Got some Oil plus A ordered, and also 2C which includes B. Small amounts so I can test things out. I have plenty of material - air dried walnut, cherry, curly cherry, QSWO, HM, curly soft maple........surprising how much stuff you can get in a condo bedroom/shop when you "have to".

Meanwhile. the Polycrylic top is at rest for a few weeks before rubbing out.

PLUS - I'd never heard of stop-loss bags until a recent thread here. I've transferred all my partial cans/mason jars, and washed/reclaimed a couple hundred marbles. What am I supposed to do with those marbles? That's on you fellers.

[John TenEyck]

Kent, you can rub out the Polycrylic in 7 days, and probably after only a day or two. I'm using some Minwax Oil Modified Poly, making samples for a customer so time is in short supply, and apply 3 coats and rub them out the same day! Just 0000 steel wool w/o lube. Amazing how fast that stuff gets an initial cure.

Curing for a few weeks is for OB finishes, but even those I have rubbed out after 10 days w/o issue. Where the curing really impacts behavior is in chemical resistance. 3 weeks makes a major difference over 7 days, even for WB products.

We're getting old. We can't afford to wait. Get on with it!

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......... Just 0000 steel wool w/o lube.........

John

Whoooa...steel wool on WB? seems counter-intuitive to me. Would love to do it - got 9/10 of a 1 kg Liberon roll lurking about.

Not arguing with you, Sir, just asking whaaaaa?

[roger wiegand]

Steel wool after it's dry!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Steel wool after it's dry!

I hear that!! Water-based slurry wouldn't help much. I's expect that also implies "full cure".

Plus - I can save my micro-mesh stash until I chew through the 0000. That Liberon roll is like an endless ribbon. It's is so finely made and tightly wound, almost like taking nothing off.

[John TenEyck]

As Roger said, steel wool on a WB finish that's dry and not going to be topcoated again is fine as far as I can tell. It does not have to be fully cured, just dry. You can use micro mesh, etc., but steel wool works better for me on wood where I haven't filled the grain, which is nearly everything that comes out of my shop. The steel wool gets down into the pores better so you get a uniform sheen. Sheet materials can't get down into those pores so you end up with a rubbed-out surface with little shiny spots in the pores, not pretty.

If you are leery about using steel wool, use brass wool.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

John - If you say it's good, then I'm good. Plus you've cleared up another dilemma/knowledge gap for me. Without filling grain to rub out, I can use steel wool on unfilled surface to rub out and eliminate dust mites and finish defects/bubbles. Only need to fill pre-rubout when I want the dead flat texture for the surface. Which I sometimes do.

Youse guys are all about making my life easier. Ima keep paying attention.

A lot changed in my world with the move to a condo, which forced a switch in finish materials and methods, and overall WW methods and techniques. I feel like I'm playing catchup on a lot of stuff that was missed when I was forced to take time off. I don't mind - for me these days its as much about the process as the product. I get reeeeaaaal bored doing something the Nth time, so education for the sake of education is cool.

[Jim Becker]

One important thing, Kent, with these hardwax oils, etc., is that the workpiece has to be absatively, posolutly clean before you apply them. Rubio even pushes their cleaner, but some of us use mineral spirits or DNA...just blowing it off is not enough. Do the prep for the best results.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim - great grooming tip. Thanks. Will do. Lotsa DNA to hand

[Kent A Bathurst]

Explain the RM colors to me. Are they the equivalent of, say, a dye stain.

What's the program here? Are they translucent or opaque? When would you use them?

Thanks again

Kent

[Jim Becker]

I have limited experience with the colors, but, for example, the Morning Mist grey provided a heavy aging look to the ash on this table, as the pigment mostly affected the very open grain but didn't stick to the very hard areas away from those pores. Some folks like to use the whiter tints with white oak for "that look". Rubio has actual dyes/stains in addition to the 2C finishes in colors. So I'll say that there is a wide range of possibilities depending on the product(s) and the specific wood species you are using.

517852 517853

[Kent A Bathurst]

Hip Cat. Definitely you.

I just got back from a 30 minute ramble through their many many levels of products [yikes] and hit on the 2C colors section. They did a very nice job of showing the colors with different species.

[Jim Becker]

Hip Cat. Definitely you.
That's Harry, my daughter's tuxedo cat. He has (literally) a white lightning bolt on his forehead IRL. Hence, his name. Clearly a wizard cat :D