Are your tools dangerous?

[Edward Weber]

Do you consider tools as dangerous?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/how-to/g2394/10-workshop-tools-that-can-kill-you/
I came accross this article and it struck me, that I don't consider my tools as dangerous or not. To me it's just a tool. Sure, some tools can cause greater injury than others but I don't think about it like that. If I'm using the tablesaw, I take the appropriate action so I am comfortable with the cut. This is no different with whatever tool I'm using.
The list made me laugh a bit as I own multiples of many of them.
Also, I believe that it's ladders that cause the most injuries.
https://porch.com/resource/most-dangerous-tools

[jim sauterer]

I agree ed all tools can cause injury some more than others.but as you said respect the tool an always follow safe operating procedures.good post I think we all need to be reminded.

[Lee Schierer]

Getting out of bed in the morning can be dangerous, but then again staying in bed could also be dangerous as lots of people die in bed. We all take various levels of risk every day. If you are going to use a tool, whether it is a pencil, a table saw or a race car, you need to know how to properly use it to avoid injury. The most dangerous tool is the one you aren't using properly between your ears.

[Bill Howatt]

Being a turner, my favorite cautionary quote is: "other tools can maim you, your lathe can kill you" and this has happened along with very severe head injuries.
A lathe looks like a pretty safe tool compared to something with spinning blades and cutters. High risk is usually by exploding blanks due to cracks or burls that have not easy to see cracks or the supporting wood gets turned away and the burl is only held together with convoluted bark. Centrifugal force is the problem so the pieces can fly in any direction.

[Edward Weber]

I really asked because I constantly hear people saying "tablesaws are dangerous", I just don't look at it that way.
Sure, I could do serious damage to myself if I don't pay attention to my tools.
Anything can be dangerous. as I linked to, ladders cause more injuries than tablesaws by a mile.

From the list/s I linked to, I regularly use about 80-90% of the tools listed, apparently I'm just a danger junkie or have some sort of death wish or just like pain or something.
IMO, tools need to be better understood, then respected, not simply irrationally feared.

[Robert Hayward]

A 6' stepladder worries me more than any power tool ever has. Over the years I have operated machines and tools from a D9 dozer to a 16" circular saw while hanging over the edge of a seawall and too many smaller tools to mention. It is still the 6' stepladder that scares me.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have heard from several sources that woodworking tools are the most dangerous industrial machines, because of razor sharp blades traveling at very high speeds and unlimited availability.

[Thomas McCurnin]

When I was a framing carpenter, the most dangerous and most common dangerous tool was . . . .

The hammer.

No joke, the straight claw ones hit guys in the head. The 22oz waffle headed ones crushed fingers.

[mike stenson]

More people use ladders than tablesaws. I am not sure how you can argue that a tablesaw is not an inherently dangerous tool.

[Tony Shea]

As of 2 nights ago, the tool that has caused the only accidents I've encountered is the Drill Press!! Believe or not this tool has had 2 very close calls, both were caused by my stupidity. 99% of the time the reason a tool becomes dangerous is due to improper use. First lesson that I hear in the safety meeting at least once a year at work is wearing gloves with spinning equipment is so dumb! Second lesson, don't clean the debris off the drill bit with your finger while the drill press is still running!

.517485

517486

517487

[Edward Weber]

More people use ladders than tablesaws. I am not sure how you can argue that a tablesaw is not an inherently dangerous tool.
If you use the tool as it's designed to be used, it is not dangerous, IMO.
When the operator does something he/she shouldn't, is usually problems occur. The wood sometimes contributes but most of the time it's humans.

I just don't view tools as dangerous or safe like some do.

I have a chainsaw with a three foot bar and an exacto knife, which one is more dangerous? which one have I cut myself with?

Everything in my shop can injure you in one way or another if used improperly.

[mike stenson]

If you use the tool as it's designed to be used, it is not dangerous, IMO.
When the operator does something he/she shouldn't, is usually problems occur. The wood sometimes contributes but most of the time it's humans.

I just don't view tools as dangerous or safe like some do.

I have a chainsaw with a three foot bar and an exacto knife, which one is more dangerous? which one have I cut myself with?

Everything in my shop can injure you in one way or another if used improperly.

Exactly. You just confirmed that it's inherently dangerous to operate. Like firearms, chainsaws, explosives, etc.

I do lots of inherently dangerous things. I just never blow off that they're dangerous. That, is a bad combination.

[Tom Trees]

Yes obviously.... well kinda, but I'm working on it, and it'll not be getting wired up until then.
517498!517497517503
Lot's to do yet, getting closer to an overhead crown guard made, one that will actually work is my intention,
(unlike some versions which seemingly don't offer the same protection, and can lift freely)
Not got round to an outfeed, which I'll be trying to mount to the mobile saw.
I'll probably have to make an infeed seperate.

Not got round to making a UK HSE spec fence system yet either, (see Roy Sutton's safe wood machining on YT)
as I've not found an off the shelf extrusion, and those companies who have the capability
of making such, will under no circumstances offer something which would make them lose a sale.

And not got round to making Shaw guards for trench cuts, (as also seen in Roy's video)
but still overall, a lot easier job than what ye folks have to deal with, considering most old iron from the USA doesn't have a riving knife.

Go buy a new saw, some might say, but my old Startrite has a lot going for it, i.e a substantial cast iron table,
compared to some of the newer offerings, which weigh a lot less, and as such, questionable how flat those tables will stay,
or indeed how substantial of an insert one could fit, which is also a very important hidden feature of sorts.

Tom

[Patty Hann]

I really asked because I constantly hear people saying "tablesaws are dangerous", I just don't look at it that way.

Someone said that to me...actually, several people have.
My response: So are cars.

[Warren Lake]

we took down a 80 -90 foot spruce leaning back over a cottage last year. I worked ropes and cut up stuff up that was down already between him needing me on the ropes. When he was down we were talking and I told him I think a table saw is more dangerous than a chain saw he just stared at me blank.

[Edward Weber]

Exactly. You just confirmed that it's inherently dangerous to operate. Like firearms, chainsaws, explosives, etc.

I do lots of inherently dangerous things. I just never blow off that they're dangerous. That, is a bad combination.

I don't quite follow your logic and I don't "blow off" safety for any tool.

I just don't view tools as being dangerous, as in being worried about injury.
I try to understand all I can about how tools work and then there is less of a cause for concern.
A tool after all, is an intimate object and only does what the operator makes it do, this is what makes it dangerous or not, IMO

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Two of my Danger Ranger spokes people are E.R. doctors. One of them says his most detested tool is the chain saw. The other says hers is the ATV.

[Mike Cutler]

Yep, all of them are dangerous. If it's fun, there's risk. It's just the way the world is.
Sometimes I work on my shotguns in the shop. :eek:
Gotta agree about ladders though. I have absolutely zero fear of heights. Ladders scare the heck out of me.
Chainsaws don't scare me, trees do. Trees are wicked fast!

All kidding aside, any tool can present a danger. You have to respect the tool, and what it can, and cannot, do.

[Bill Dufour]

The one that surprises many, including myself, is the grinder coming up to speed and the wheel exploding into shrapnel.
BillD

[Tom Trees]

The one that surprises many, including myself, is the grinder coming up to speed and the wheel exploding into shrapnel.
BillD

I've got scolded for that before, glazed wheels that is, what said to heat up the stone, which is one way for that to happen apparently.
IIRC, (don't quote me on this) some say you can hear when a wheel has a fracture, not that I've ever tried tapping one.
It kinda seems like a good way to make that happen to me...

That said, I've never even looked to see some evidence of the damage an exploding grinding wheel can do,
as I suppose it likely could be the same deal with tablesaws...some folks coming away less scathed than others.
I've read of someone cutting fillets before, and the offcut harpooning someone's thumb off, which is likely somewhat of a freak incident,
i.e not so common, nevermind an amputation.

I'd sure find it interesting to read, whether this is huge grinding wheels we're talking about, where safety goggles aren't enough,
or if indeed someone could potentially be killed by their 6 or 8 inch wheeled grinder.

Not trying to make one trawl through the net to find something, a brief recollection would do.
Cheers for posting Bill, I'll keep that in mind to stand off to one side on startup, as I can't recall that particular aspect said before.

Tom

[Bill Dufour]

Only time I almost saw it was cutoff wheel in a skillsaw. Wheel had ben dropped and a small divot taken out. Started it up and it shook a bit but not crazy. Bounded up and down in the cut. It did not smooth out just got worse and worse.
Bill D

[Michael Burnside]

Exactly. You just confirmed that it's inherently dangerous to operate. Like firearms, chainsaws, explosives, etc.

I do lots of inherently dangerous things. I just never blow off that they're dangerous. That, is a bad combination.

My sentiments exactly.

[glenn bradley]

My tools are way more safe than something like an automobile. That being said they are, of course, used with a degree of risk directly proportional to your training, experience, and personality :D. Many a macho dingbat has been laid low by reality infringing on his version of the world. I forget how many folks are seen for injuries from clawing themselves in the face with a framing hammer per year. A nice sharp chisel will open you up easily with no electrons involved whatsoever . . . except maybe for the overhead lights :). Anyone who has worked with multi-ton machines has a serious respect for physics or has a nice obituary in their home town paper. I once nicked my finger with a cutoff wheel on an angle grinder. Six months later I did it again, same finger, same spot, showing someone how I did it the first time . . . talk about embarrassing. Know your tools. Know your self. Rely on your training and stay safe out there.

[Cameron Wood]

Screwdrivers are responsible for a lot of ER visits.

[Steve Demuth]

Most tools are not in and of themselves dangerous (in the way, that, say, a dog with a violent impulse is) - they're not going to suddenly turn on you and cause an injury out of malice or just for (their) fun. Using some tools is inherently dangerous. There is no way to use a chainsaw that does not put you at heightened risk of injury compared to not using it. How we use tools can drastically reduce the danger of injury from them, or it can dramatically increase the danger. But within that general rule, there are tools that are far easier to hurt yourself or someone else with, or which when things go wrong cause more catastrophic injuriies, and ones that are far harder or cause less serious injuries.

The tool on my place that is probably most likely to cause me a serious injury, and which is certainly most likely to kill me, is either my tractor or my chainsaw. Just so many ways for things to go badly wrong with those tools, given what I use them for. But I've never actually been injured in a way that required attention, by either. On the other, hand, my drill press has hurt me pretty badly more than once, and ditto for my pin nailer. Why? Because I am less careful with them. I do things I shouldn't, and I get bit as a result.

So which is more dangerous? I'd still go with the tractor or chainsaw, but I can see arguing the other way, too.

[Roger Feeley]

The one that surprises many, including myself, is the grinder coming up to speed and the wheel exploding into shrapnel.
BillD
I was aught to stand aside while the bench grinder is coming up to speed. I’ve never seen a wheel fail but not being in line with it is no bother.

[Michael Schuch]

It was late, I was tired, the Philips screw driver (hand tool) slipped and went right into the joint at the base my fore finger on my other hand. Right to the bone! Instant buzzing nerve pain which has been slowly dissipating over the past day (I still get an ever lessening buzzing nerve pain when using the finger too much or putting it under too much strain... "R", "T", "F", "G", "V", and "B" can make me flinch a bit when typing them).

Yes! ... all tools can be dangerous! Some times the tools you take for granted can be the most dangerous. I remember my high school shop teacher preaching the dangers of the drill-press because students neglect to give it the respect it deserves. He had a great story about a big clump of long hair he found wrapped around the spindle of the drill press one time.

[Jerry Bruette]

The one that surprises many, including myself, is the grinder coming up to speed and the wheel exploding into shrapnel.
BillD


I've got scolded for that before, glazed wheels that is, what said to heat up the stone, which is one way for that to happen apparently.
IIRC, (don't quote me on this) some say you can hear when a wheel has a fracture, not that I've ever tried tapping one.
It kinda seems like a good way to make that happen to me...

That said, I've never even looked to see some evidence of the damage an exploding grinding wheel can do,
as I suppose it likely could be the same deal with tablesaws...some folks coming away less scathed than others.
I've read of someone cutting fillets before, and the offcut harpooning someone's thumb off, which is likely somewhat of a freak incident,
i.e not so common, nevermind an amputation.

I'd sure find it interesting to read, whether this is huge grinding wheels we're talking about, where safety goggles aren't enough,
or if indeed someone could potentially be killed by their 6 or 8 inch wheeled grinder.

Not trying to make one trawl through the net to find something, a brief recollection would do.
Cheers for posting Bill, I'll keep that in mind to stand off to one side on startup, as I can't recall that particular aspect said before.

Tom

I've never seen a grinding wheel blow up myself, but I've seen pictures it's impressive and scary.

When I was in the Navy our ship was contacted for aid to a civilian commercial ship. A grinding wheel blew up striking the operator in the head. Before we could get to the other ship they cancelled the call for aid. The person who got struck died. Even though we never saw the accident sight it was a wakeup call.

As for "ringing" a wheel before installing it, that's something that's so easy to do I think a six year old could do it and if you don't you're playing with everyone's safety. You also need to have your tool rest and tongue guard properly adjusted for safety reasons.

[mike stenson]

I don't quite follow your logic and I don't "blow off" safety for any tool.

I just don't view tools as being dangerous, as in being worried about injury.
I try to understand all I can about how tools work and then there is less of a cause for concern.
A tool after all, is an intimate object and only does what the operator makes it do, this is what makes it dangerous or not, IMO

If a tool isn't inherently dangerous to operate, no training is required to use one without injury. I don't go off saying that scuba diving isn't dangerous because I'm trained to do so. Because I'm trained to do so I KNOW it's dangerous. I wear safety equipment when downhill mountain biking, or when climbing, etc. Why? Because they're inherently dangerous activities.

I don't understand the whole point of trying to whitewash an activity as 'completely safe'. Unless you're not using the equipment. Then sure, it's "safe".

[Dave Anderson NH]

There is no question that the operators of table saws are dangerous. My point being that used when tired, used carelessly, or having your attention lag when doing a large number of repetitive motions all people can generate potential accidents. When my son bought his house and started to build up a basement shop we gave him a contractor style table saw as a Christmas/birthday present some 20+ years ago. Yes, his birthday is unfortunately December 28th. The day I helped him set it up we had a safety discussion and particularly concentrated on the dangers of ripping operations. I brought along a 4 foot long piece of scrap polyethylene from work about a foot wide and an inch thick. I made him stand in the danger zone holding a piece of plywood covering him from the neck to crotch. I used the polyfoam to induce a kickback which hit him just above the waist. I have since suggested this type of demo to friends teaching new users. It is a real attention getter and clearly shows the speed at which something bad can happen.

[Michael Burnside]

If a tool isn't inherently dangerous to operate, no training is required to use one without injury. I don't go off saying that scuba diving isn't dangerous because I'm trained to do so. Because I'm trained to do so I KNOW it's dangerous. I wear safety equipment when downhill mountain biking, or when climbing, etc. Why? Because they're inherently dangerous activities.

I don't understand the whole point of trying to whitewash an activity as 'completely safe'. Unless you're not using the equipment. Then sure, it's "safe".

Exactly, Mike. I don't quite understand the 'inanimate' argument either. I mean yea a bike or table saw isn't dangerous until you use it, but "dangerous", to me, means what can happen to me when using it...I mean what else is there? I never thought about my DH rig being dangerous sitting in the garage, but I'm not all geared up for nothing because I don't think the act of using it isn't LOL. That categorized mindset will get you hurt, even if you're an "expert". Which, by the way, I raced super-D and cyclocross for 10 years as Cat II/III and this "expert" ate plenty of dirt.

[Edward Weber]

If a tool isn't inherently dangerous to operate, no training is required to use one without injury. I don't go off saying that scuba diving isn't dangerous because I'm trained to do so. Because I'm trained to do so I KNOW it's dangerous. I wear safety equipment when downhill mountain biking, or when climbing, etc. Why? Because they're inherently dangerous activities.

I don't understand the whole point of trying to whitewash an activity as 'completely safe'. Unless you're not using the equipment. Then sure, it's "safe".

I know some of you will pick apart every word no matter what I say but I'll say it anyway.
ANYTHING can be considered dangerous if used improperly, I think we've at least established that. A pillow can be dangerous if used improperly, yet most of us sleep with one.
People are what make tools dangerous, for innumerable reasons.
"If a tool isn't inherently dangerous to operate, no training is required to use one without injury."
Interesting view, Does everyone who buys/uses tools get training or is everyone with a tool in imitate danger of somehow injuring themselves?

My point is that I do not consciously think, "now I'm going to use the tablesaw, possibly the most dangerous tool in the shop" That's ludicrous. For me tools are useful and to be respected, not feared. Use them as they're designed to be used and follow any and all safety precautions applicable to you. If you do that, most all perceived potential "dangers" can be easily avoided. Everyone should be aware of what could happen when using tools, the more you know the better off you are,
While I don't dismiss any dangers that could happen, I don't dwell on it.
I also don't think I ever said "completely safe" that's just false. I'm also not whitewashing anything, it's just my personal viewpoint.
I'm not trying to label the machine one way or another, I'm talking about a frame of mind.

[James Jayko]

My buddy's dad is a microsurgeon, reattaching fingers and stuff. He said table saws put his kids through college. So not NOT dangerous...

[Michael Burnside]

I know some of you will pick apart every word no matter what I say but I'll say it anyway.
ANYTHING can be considered dangerous if used improperly, I think we've at least established that. A pillow can be dangerous if used improperly, yet most of us sleep with one.
People are what make tools dangerous, for innumerable reasons.
"If a tool isn't inherently dangerous to operate, no training is required to use one without injury."
Interesting view, Does everyone who buys/uses tools get training or is everyone with a tool in imitate danger of somehow injuring themselves?

My point is that I do not consciously think, "now I'm going to use the tablesaw, possibly the most dangerous tool in the shop" That's ludicrous. For me tools are useful and to be respected, not feared. Use them as they're designed to be used and follow any and all safety precautions applicable to you. If you do that, most all perceived potential "dangers" can be easily avoided. Everyone should be aware of what could happen when using tools, the more you know the better off you are,
While I don't dismiss any dangers that could happen, I don't dwell on it.
I also don't think I ever said "completely safe" that's just false. I'm also not whitewashing anything, it's just my personal viewpoint.
I'm not trying to label the machine one way or another, I'm talking about a frame of mind.

No disrespect Edward, but there is a lot of "fluff" in here that while I agree in principal with some of it, your original post was "Are your tools dangerous?" The simple answer is yes. If you don't like that answer and continue to post and force others to defend their reasoning be prepared to have those replies picked apart as is the nature of forums. ;)

[Edward Weber]

No disrespect Edward, but there is a lot of "fluff" in here that while I agree in principal with some of it, your original post was "Are your tools dangerous?" The simple answer is yes. If you don't like that answer and continue to post and force others to defend their reasoning be prepared to have those replies picked apart as is the nature of forums. ;)
""Are your tools dangerous?" The simple answer is yes. If you don't like that answer and continue to post and force others to defend their reasoning be prepared to have those replies picked apart as is the nature of forums. "

Now who's "forcing" their opinion?

Telling me my opinion or viewpoint is wrong and letting me know that if I continue to have this stance I will be picked apart by those who disagree.

I really don't believe anyone was forced to do anything, you are not obligated to reply.
When the original meaning of my post gets skewed out of recognition, I will defend it.
If yuo don't understand the original context, you can simply ask.
To you they're dangerous, to me they're not.
Different ways of looking at things, that's all.

[Tom Bussey]

There is not one tool in the world that is dangerous. Also how many die each year in car accidents. Yet nobody wants to talk about that. The care in itself is not dangerous. Or how many die from lung cancer or drug overdose? One can die from lung cancer even if they don't smoke but one can't overdose if you don't take the drug. A tool, like a care will remain inert and unmoving until acted upon by a person or thing.

The common denominator is the person. I drove to a town about 1 1/2 hours away today and came accosted 4 cars in the ditch. The only way one can get in a ditch is by loosing control of the care. I don't know for sure because I didn't stop to find out why they were they were there. My guess is they were driving to fast for the weather conditions, because the conditions were not very good today.

You can't fix stupid

[Larry Edgerton]

My Unitronix has a metal tag from the factory that says "Failure too blah, blah, blah will cause DEATH!" I love it! No generic warnings here.

[Edward Weber]

My Unitronix has a metal tag from the factory that says "Failure too blah, blah, blah will cause DEATH!" I love it! No generic warnings here.
Too funny, that reminds me of the stickers you often see
517544
So, as long as you don't touch, you're good.

[Tom Trees]

Most older tablesaws I've seen in the USA certainly are very dangerous... compared to the the much older and heavier duty saws, or indeed the regular stuff in Europe.
That is unless, one calls not retrofitting a true riving knife like below "user error"
+ everything else necessary, that's the only way I could see such a machine as not being treacherous.

Money to be made here for someone, perhaps the inventor sells'em already, and no worries about getting a patient nicked from overseas, seeing as useful add ons aren't made for anything, which would risk losing out on selling new and shiny machines.

Sean Lennon's riving knife is a great example for the thread in regards to the old iron, Imagine all the people...
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one!

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133210-Delta-34-350-12-14-quot-riving-knife-retrofit



(https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133210-Delta-34-350-12-14-quot-riving-knife-retrofit)

[Patty Hann]

How many folks here remember this? I first saw posted in the ET shop (electronics) when I was in the Navy.

ACHTUNG!

Das machine is nicht fur gerfingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der Sprinngwerk, blowenfusen und
poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das Dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das Pockets, relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights...

[Warren Lake]

Not seen that before but makes me think of Siegfried from Kaos, I can hear him reading it.

I looked at the adjustable riving knife. Im not getting it. I see what is done just looking quickly. This last saw I bought had an aluminum riving knife, crudely made and not close but its irrelevant, it will do the job even as it is. David Kumm was the first person I heard talk about making riving knives out of old saw blades. Thats a great idea.

Tom Am radio said yesterday that 80 percent are smokers, so 20 percent prove your point. Past someone told me of a friends son having died from cannibis as there was Fentenyal in it. Sadly proving your point. Friday night drove home from the cottage show in Toronto at 8:30 in the bigfest snowfall this year. Roads not plowed they were leaving it till later. I was amazed no one was crashing. Most were going slower and leaving way more space than normal. Few cowboys blew past and sometimes they are the ones you see later and pass, them in the ditch. No one was so it was a good night. Dangerous machines but most operators paying attention.

[Tom Trees]

I had a great laugh at that Patty, it would make a great poster for the shed. :)

@Warren, here you go, perhaps the most simplest to explain things would be the first two links of the UK HSE
The second PDF for regarding the riving knife setup.



https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
Or
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

And some links to the old UK forum, before most folks left after the deceitful conglomerate takeover....
which has many great threads in the archives.
Might as well number them for folks wanting to study, in no particular order... just to drill it home for the newcomers who's likely unaware of all this,
as ones fingers are fairly important.

1
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...-guard.129299/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/just-use-the-blade-guard.129299/)
2
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...-again.134819/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/push-sticks-again.134819/)
3
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...k-back.134376/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/how-do-these-cuts-not-cause-kick-back.134376/)
4
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...-angle.104772/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saw-crown-guard-angle.104772/)
5
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...n-here.145770/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/why-is-this-dangerous-kit-being-advertised-on-here.145770/)
6
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads.../#post-1316680 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/tablesaw-safety.119840/#post-1316680)
7
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...e-2#post-55548 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/kickback-ouch-that-hurt.5111/page-2#post-55548)
8
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads.../#post-1237571 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/saw-stop.113506/#post-1237571)
9
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...0/#post-464040 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/new-us-table-saw-injury-report-statistics.39610/#post-464040)
10
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...le-saw.130321/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/how-to-use-push-sticks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/)
11
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...ard-on.133301/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/good-reason-to-leave-your-table-saw-guard-on.133301/)
12
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...3/#post-398582 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saw-accident-week.34693/#post-398582)
13
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...op-usa.145976/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/saw-stop-usa.145976/)
14
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...ut-them.10490/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/dado-cutters-please-what-is-so-dangerous-about-them.10490/)
15
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads.../#post-1504540 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saws-riving-knives-and-how-to-trench-cut.132631/#post-1504540)
16
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...-guard.129299/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/just-use-the-blade-guard.129299/)
17
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...sticks.124516/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/)
18
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads.../#post-1352165 (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/why-safety-goggles-are-important.122446/#post-1352165)
19
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...al-mod.118878/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/riving-knife-higher-than-the-blade-potential-mod.118878/)
20
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...blocks.107009/ (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/push-blocks.107009/)



Good luck, and all the best.
Tom

[Carl Beckett]

The surgeon that put the pins in my thumb after a TS kickback noted that he sold ALL his WW tools, after seeing so many injuries, especially TS accidents.

Personally I try not to fall into the trap of thinking I am so 'experienced' or 'skilled' that accidents are not possible.

[Larry Edgerton]

Personally I try not to fall into the trap of thinking I am so 'experienced' or 'skilled' that accidents are not possible.

Carl, I have a fair amount of experience and I can tell you that machines are always looking for a new and exciting ways of messing you up. I don't trust them either.:D

[James Jayko]

There is not one tool in the world that is dangerous. Also how many die each year in car accidents. Yet nobody wants to talk about that. The care in itself is not dangerous. Or how many die from lung cancer or drug overdose? One can die from lung cancer even if they don't smoke but one can't overdose if you don't take the drug. A tool, like a care will remain inert and unmoving until acted upon by a person or thing.

This is a false equivalency, and sorry, but, kind of nonsense. Saying the object, not in use, is not dangerous is silly. Driving a car is inherently dangerous, and cars are meant to be driven. Using a table saw is inherently dangerous, and a table saw that isn't cutting things is just a table. Acknowledging that things are inherently dangerous just means that one has to always be aware and be careful. Is a RAS inherently dangerous? Of course. Can you do things to minimize those risks? Yes, but some risks remain.

"Dangerous: adjective. Able or likely to cause physical injury." (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dangerous)

[Warren Lake]

Originally most of the people in the trade had equipment that was unaffordable to consumers, likely little cheap consumer equipment way back like now. The people in the trade got training and had a chance to hang on to digits. The people who bought from big box when that arrived had not teaching. Someone taught me how not to get whacked so it was up to me if I listened to what I was originally taught over the years.

Big box and other dont teach you. I bet more of you have been whacked and are missing digits proportionally than people that had teaching. You have limited time compared on the machines, no deadlines and no pressure, no material suppliers letting you down and all that goes with being self employed in a hard way to make a living. Non of the pressures but more of you have lost fingers proportionally. I dont know for sure no statistics. But logic says its so. Enough content creators have not made it any better as some amount dont know they dont know. Even some of them id think would. There are many bad examples out there and id be one of them but at least I know when im doing something wrong. Enough of them dont.

Tom thanks but I dont need all that stuff but will look at what it is later. The riving knife post I just looked at it as a ton of work to make that riving knife go up and down and thought great machining but why you just need a riving knife it does not have to have a linear guide, not to raise it up and down.

[Edward Weber]

This is a false equivalency, and sorry, but, kind of nonsense. Saying the object, not in use, is not dangerous is silly. Driving a car is inherently dangerous, and cars are meant to be driven. Using a table saw is inherently dangerous, and a table saw that isn't cutting things is just a table. Acknowledging that things are inherently dangerous just means that one has to always be aware and be careful. Is a RAS inherently dangerous? Of course. Can you do things to minimize those risks? Yes, but some risks remain.

"Dangerous: adjective. Able or likely to cause physical injury." (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dangerous)


Just for the fun of it, I asked about 5 or 6 AI chatbots to answer the same question.
Are tools inherently dangerous?
Here is one answer but they all are essentially the same.

Tools themselves are not inherently dangerous, as they are merely objects designed to perform specific tasks. However, the way in which tools are used by individuals can pose a danger if not used correctly or with proper care. It is important for individuals to receive proper training and follow safety guidelines when using tools to minimize the risk of accidents or injuries.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Edward, tools can be dangerous, and yes the list was a bit odd in my opinion.

If you consider most tools dangerous then you'll take risks to mitigate those dangers, so it's a good practise to consider tools dangerous.

Some tools are very dangerous, some such as a rubber spatula not so much.

Regards, Rod.

[Edward Weber]

When someone asks me if a tools is dangerous my typical initial reaction is to ask, who's using it?
It all comes down to humans and how we interact with everything.
JMHO

[Michael Burnside]

This thread is therefore nonsensical if we're not discussing a tool when used. Good grief.

[mike stenson]

This thread is therefore nonsensical if we're not discussing a tool when used. Good grief.

it's a ridiculous standard of definition. Unless, that is, you're a tool collector.

[James Jayko]

Just for the fun of it, I asked about 5 or 6 AI chatbots to answer the same question.
Are tools inherently dangerous?
Here is one answer but they all are essentially the same.

Tools themselves are not inherently dangerous, as they are merely objects designed to perform specific tasks. However, the way in which tools are used by individuals can pose a danger if not used correctly or with proper care. It is important for individuals to receive proper training and follow safety guidelines when using tools to minimize the risk of accidents or injuries.

Well, I had AI do my NCAA bracket and I was eliminated on day 1, so...take with a grain of salt?

[Edward Weber]

This thread is therefore nonsensical if we're not discussing a tool when used. Good grief.

Putting your rather declarative statement aside,
With respect, I feel you still fail to see that this is a point of view thread, not a carved in stone definition type of thread.
The entire point is that we humans (woodworkers) determine whether or not a tool is "dangerous" in how we use them.
What one person views as dangerous others do not.

Feel free to start a discussion about tools in use, it will still be human interaction that dictates to what extent there is a danger.

[Carl Beckett]

I did a search on youtube for dangerous tools.

Indeed I found many, especially some in third world countries, that "I" deem to be dangerous tools. Frighteningly so.

[Edward Weber]

Here's a blast from the past
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?52570-Most-Dangerous-Tool-poll

[Patty Hann]

Not seen that before but makes me think of Siegfried from Kaos, I can hear him reading it. .

Oh yes... had to stop and think for a few seconds... Get Smart :)

[Warren Lake]

yes cone of silence, Hemmie the robot AI with a heart. I said the military consulted with them but think it might have been James Bond, one of them anyway.

Think the first show Max drove a Ferrari. And 99. Okay ill be quiet now.

[Aaron Inami]

That popular mechanics article feels like it's targeted to general consumers (not necessarily woodworkers and DIY enthusiasts). Though, there is one tool I have seen that seems stupidly dangerous (or dangerously stupid, lol):

https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-14t-carving-disc-58013.html

What do you guys think?

[Warren Lake]

Hey Tom

took a look at a bit and will take a look at more. Its lots of homework there for a guy on a saw for a lifetime with no riving knife or anything. Do have a saw with a riving knife now and I like it. Feels like cheating but its a good thing. 9 Hp will kick if it wants to but so far its been very well behaved.

I once saw a british guy red lab coat and two long push sticks. He had little control of the material. At first I thought it was a joke.

This saw came with an aluminum riving knife which I find interesting then same time its less likely to stay flat like making them from a saw blade. I have a fair number of large blades that can be turned into riving knives. that thing you posted the riving knife looked too close the blade as well. Better aluminum that steel but it doesnt need to be stuck up against the blade. It will still do its job sitting back some amount.

[Tom Trees]

8mm according to HSE in Europe, and certainly not aluminium.
The standards used to suggest further, as per Roy Sutton's old video, but things have changed since.
Some stuff in the video (it's on YT) might be quite surprising to some, i.e Shaw guards for trench cuts, movable fence for ripping solid timbers, (dependant on blade height,)
crown guard being also required, and a pair of 450mm long push sticks minimum.
Jack Forsberg has some other useful videos on the matter, on his very old Wadkin saw.

I guess the Unisaw and the likes were first designed for some use during the war effort, or some reason like that?
Saying this, there has been some UK produced dodgy machines in-between the Wadkin or Robinson saws, and my old Startrite, or newer old Wadkins from around the same era...
like the older Multico's which have tilting tables instead! :eek:
so perhaps just took some ironing out to simplify things.
Could it be, there might have been some patients involved, stopping ye from getting the same?
I've not stumbled across any concrete answers to that, though I've not really looked either.
It would be interesting to know why.

Tom

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[Steven O Smith]

I do hand and power woodworking, blacksmithing and metal machining, hobbies all and at home. I was greatly amused when I had to fill out a form at my doctor's. One question was "is there anything dangerous in your home?". I asked if I could have extra pages.

[Edward Weber]

That popular mechanics article feels like it's targeted to general consumers (not necessarily woodworkers and DIY enthusiasts). Though, there is one tool I have seen that seems stupidly dangerous (or dangerously stupid, lol):

https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-14t-carving-disc-58013.html

What do you guys think?

There is certainly potential there for damage if you're not prepared.
This is a good video by carvers, explaining these tools
https://woodcarvingillustrated.com/blog/2016/07/21/chainsaw-carving-discs-for-angle-grinders/

Many people have gotten injured by these tools, what percentage, I don't know.
There are many alternatives to these that vary in aggressiveness of cut, which most people equate to how dangerous they can be.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I do hand and power woodworking, blacksmithing and metal machining, hobbies all and at home. I was greatly amused when I had to fill out a form at my doctor's. One question was "is there anything dangerous in your home?". I asked if I could have extra pages.
Next time list - toilet(s).

There were 40,000 toilet related accidents last year.
Compared to - 30,000 table saw related accidents.

[Edward Weber]

Next time list - toilet(s).

There were 40,000 toilet related accidents last year.
Compared to - 30,000 table saw related accidents.

Trying to be thorough, I looked up some stats.
PTI estimates that are approx 9.5 million tabesaws in use in the U.S.
There are approx between 30,000 and 40,000 TS accidents per year in the U.S. (Depending on your source)
A horrible statistic to be sure but from a strictly numbers perspective, that's only about 1/2 of a percent of users having accidents.
This also goes to why there aren't more safety standard on power tools, the numbers just don't justify it in many cases.
I certainly don't know where the tipping point is but less than 1% is not a strong position to bargain from.

[Michael Burnside]

Next time list - toilet(s).

There were 40,000 toilet related accidents last year.
Compared to - 30,000 table saw related accidents.


What are the number of toilets in use compared to the number of table saws? I’m sure many, many orders of magnitude not only in number that exist but the frequency with which they are used per day. The numbers don’t even compare.

For automotive safety standards toilets fall well within DPPM targets but table saws, by comparison, do not even come close.

[Rich Engelhardt]

My point was - who would have thought 40,000 accidents occurred via a toilet.
When I think of "dangerous" - I don't really think of a toilet as being something that is dangerous.

[Michael Burnside]

My point was - who would have thought 40,000 accidents occurred via a toilet.
When I think of "dangerous" - I don't really think of a toilet as being something that is dangerous.

Might be for elderly or people that are intoxicated LOL

[Carl Beckett]

Rugs ultimately cause a lot of deaths. Elderly people trip and break a bone or hip, mobility never recovers, and decline rapidly from there.

So rugs are also dangerous.

Falls are a leading cause of unintentional injury among adults age 65 years and older. Loose, unsecured rugs and damaged carpets with curled edges, are recognized environmental hazards that may contribute to falls. To characterize nonfatal, unintentional fall-related injuries associated with rugs and carpets in adults aged 65 years and older.

[Edward Weber]

What are the number of toilets in use compared to the number of table saws? I’m sure many, many orders of magnitude not only in number that exist but the frequency with which they are used per day. The numbers don’t even compare.

For automotive safety standards toilets fall well within DPPM targets but table saws, by comparison, do not even come close.
Please explain
Auto standards of some type comparing toilets and tablesaws?


And Ive been accused of using false equivalencies in this thread (not by you)

All I can say is be safe on the toilet, I guess
or at least meet some automotive safety standard or something

[Tom Trees]

I just googled "toilet amputations" but didn't find anything. :confused:

[Warren Lake]

okay next try zippers

they need saw stop technology.

[Patty Hann]

I just googled "toilet amputations" but didn't find anything. :confused:
MAybe you aren't looking it up right.
Maybe you have to Google "commode amputations", or "water closet amputations", or even "loo amputations".
Accuracy matters, juneau...;)

[Edward Weber]

Now that I think we've gotten to the point where everything is dangerous, I guess nothing is. :confused:

You can look up zipper injuries yourself, I did and the numbers are just ridiculous.
Pay attention to what you're doing, be safe.

I'll add, after the last couple of posts, the shop is sounding not so dangerous after all :D

[Michael Burnside]

Please explain
Auto standards of some type comparing toilets and tablesaws?


And Ive been accused of using false equivalencies in this thread (not by you)

All I can say is be safe on the toilet, I guess
or at least meet some automotive safety standard or something

LOL, it was more in gest from a high-level. But....if all injuries are serious, let's just say they're the same at 30k injuries. Given we have 250 million toilets (used by everyone, including children) vs. 10 million tablesaws (used by a fewer population set) the injury per million is 25 times higher with a tablesaw even completely and utterly ignoring use models, exposure and controllability models. In summary, be careful in the shop and the bathroom!

[Cary Falk]

I think I have caused myself more harm with a box knife than any of my large tools. LOL

[Ron Citerone]

Oxford dictionary

dan·ger·ous

/ˈdānj(ə)rəs/


adjective



able or likely to cause harm or injury.

[Ron Citerone]

I think I have caused myself more harm with a box knife than any of my large tools. LOL

My Father in Law worked for a fiberglass fabrictor/repair company. They did a lot of work for a major chemical company who did not allow box knives in their factories.

[Randy Heinemann]

All power tools are inherently dangerous and, while we all believe we are constantly trying to use them safely and have spent time learning how to use them safely, we all make mistakes. If we're fortunate and the mistakes only involve remaking a project part, then there is no problem except spending additional time and money to remake the piece. However, it only takes a fraction of a second of the user's mind to be drawn elsewhere to create a dangerous situation with any power tool. I once was using a belt sander early in my woodworking journey. The belt sander caught my shirt, pulled the sander into my stomach and quite a layer of skin was taken off. It was stupid (at least I felt it was) because I should not have been wearing a baggy shirt at the time. I learned, of course, one thing not to do when using a belt sander (although belt sanders aren't a significant part of my woodworking anymore). That same sort of misstep can happen with any power tool. So, are tools dangerous? Of course, but we all try to use them in a way that doesn't cause us permanent injury (any injury really).

[Cameron Wood]

There was an entertaining story in Harper's magazine years ago about blue jean injuries.

Compiled from emergency room reports in the UK, it included ironing the jeans while wearing them, and a common one was face plant while walking with hands in the pockets.

[Ray Selinger]

The tool I've given me the most bites is bench grinder, because I'm more careless with it. I've used a DeWalt for over 60 years and am still very careful around it. It's scary. For the old carpenters I worked with that were missing parts of their fingers, it was the jointer .

[Edward Weber]

Since I'm the only one that doesn't think his machines are inherently dangerous, I'll ask this.
There are 30-400k TS injuries per year, how many liability lawsuits come from those injuries?
A guess would be a heck of a lot less than 30,000, since typically you need to prove that the tools design, manufacturing or marketing was st fault.
If the tool isn't at fault, it must be the operators actions that are the dangerous part of the equation, regardless of the reason.

For me, using tools is like dealing with nature, it's neither for you or against you, it's simply intolerant of mistakes.

Be safe everyone

[Thomas Pender]

Am now recovering from an injury to my right hand caused by an infection of unknown origin. Caused me to spike a white blood cell count of 21,600 - close to general sepsis according to my MD son. Resulted in emergency surgery so I am now doing physical therapy and anxious to get back to woodworking. Physical therapist (a hand expert) told me most common reason for hand PT are table saw accidents, followed by dog bites. Bottom line is our tools can be dangerous, but sometimes we do not even know what dangerous is. I agree that machines are intolerant of mistakes, but offer that Staph infections are even less tolerant.

[John C Cox]

One of the most important ideas they teach us in the safety training at work is to trigger at the danger. People recognize that a table saw with it's spinning blade is dangerous. People often do not trigger any existence of danger from standing on a chair or climbing onto a counter top. Simply looking at the statistics for accidental deaths tells the story. Things like drowning, falling, and choking at your own house are very high on the list where other, commonly touted "Dangers" (for example, being killed by shark bites or alligators) barely even makes the decimal trash on the bottom of the list.

[Tom Trees]

It's a bit silly to be making these comparisons like toilets, chairs and whatever else,
when tablesaws sold in Europe are fundamentality different, and thereby much safer when those features are utilized,
which in turn requires a much different approach to most operations, compared to the in-complete designs like the Unisaw's and similar.

There's no argument about that in Europe, whilst in the USA, the common reoccurring theme being folks trying to defend
their unsafe tablesaws, simply because they're either too lazy to read how things are done, as per the links I've given,
or indeed too busy/short sighted/masochistic/ignorant to make their machines a whole lot safer, like they should be.

This is very evident seeing as there's a market for the Sawstop in the USA, compared to the UK, where there's little value placed on such technology
as safe working practice using properly equipped tablesaws being the norm.

In general, the only folks who get injured across the pond from you folks, usually are not complying with the rules,
as they likely have been too ignorant to learn how to do things properly, likely because they don't know what they don't know,
and copied some dangerous stuff they seen on youtube.

For example...the short "shoe" designs of pushsticks being a common thing to see from newbies, who think they're equipped to work safely!!! :eek:
and things are only getting worse, as the "consumer machine" that is the internet, tailored to favour any auld hay that's coming from unscrupulous sellers and sponsored utoobers alike,
With the main aim being for folks to have terrible accidents, and as such push the agenda that is Sawstop TM.

Truly shameful carry on, and anyone attempting to pretend their in-complete Unisaw or the likes are no different to any other machine, are playing their part "in the game". :mad:

Regards
Tom

[Warren Lake]

Whats a short shoe. Shak wears a size 23. Oh sorry its only 22.

[Tom Trees]

Anything what puts your hand over the blade, for instance.... any/all examples, as seen from any youtuber selling pusher tools.

The minimum requirement for any pushers/push sticks/push blocks, are 450mm long in the UK, though that might not cut the mustard for blades over 12".

Tom

[Steve Demuth]

Since I'm the only one that doesn't think his machines are inherently dangerous, I'll ask this.
There are 30-400k TS injuries per year, how many liability lawsuits come from those injuries?
A guess would be a heck of a lot less than 30,000, since typically you need to prove that the tools design, manufacturing or marketing was st fault.
If the tool isn't at fault, it must be the operators actions that are the dangerous part of the equation, regardless of the reason.

For me, using tools is like dealing with nature, it's neither for you or against you, it's simply intolerant of mistakes.

Be safe everyone

The interesting thing is that we start with different premises (tools are / are not inherently dangerous), and reach the same conclusions. You think they are not - the the danger is attributable to improper use or other human mistakes, so it's important that we all be trained on and vigilant when using these tools. The "are dangerous" crowd says, these things are inherently dangerous, so it's really important that we all be trained on and vigilant when using these tools.

I don't sense much disagreement here at all.

Nature, by the way, is loaded with phenomenon and living things that are inherently dangerous. Having watched a tornado come through my place 20 some years ago, I can say with absolute certainty that it's just a matter of luck, and not not making mistakes, that my family came through uninjured. We did everything we should have in the situation, but if the twister had tracked 200ft further West, it would have reduced our house to matchsticks (instead of just laying waste to some standing trees, and removing shingles from the house).

[Tom Trees]

Training starts with a suitable machine, so perhaps if you've got some older American made machine,
you could mention where you got your fence extrusion from, as I've been looking for something up to spec.
517743

Cheers
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Nothing like a runaway saw blade...


https://6abc.com/watch-oregon-man-has-close-call-with-runaway-saw-blade/14593723/

[jim sauterer]

Doesn’t get any closer than that.

[Patty Hann]

Nothing like a runaway saw blade...


https://6abc.com/watch-oregon-man-has-close-call-with-runaway-saw-blade/14593723/

I'm still sitting here with a major jaw drop.
That is absolutely horrifying.
It was incredible (providential?) that no one else was in its path, and that it hit the store wall and not the door. Just unbelievable (except that... there's the video)

[Lee Schierer]

Nothing like a runaway saw blade...


https://6abc.com/watch-oregon-man-has-close-call-with-runaway-saw-blade/14593723/

Apparently it is not rare for concrete saw blades to run away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apFzT11_h5s

[Edward Weber]

The interesting thing is that we start with different premises (tools are / are not inherently dangerous), and reach the same conclusions. You think they are not - the the danger is attributable to improper use or other human mistakes, so it's important that we all be trained on and vigilant when using these tools. The "are dangerous" crowd says, these things are inherently dangerous, so it's really important that we all be trained on and vigilant when using these tools.

I don't sense much disagreement here at all.

Nature, by the way, is loaded with phenomenon and living things that are inherently dangerous. Having watched a tornado come through my place 20 some years ago, I can say with absolute certainty that it's just a matter of luck, and not not making mistakes, that my family came through uninjured. We did everything we should have in the situation, but if the twister had tracked 200ft further West, it would have reduced our house to matchsticks (instead of just laying waste to some standing trees, and removing shingles from the house).

I really appreciate the thoughtful reply.
I'm also "lucky" when it comes to mother nature.
In 2020, there was a grass fire that started between 1/4 and 1/2 mile from my house. Luckily the wind just happened to be blowing the other direction that day, which is unusual. The fire ended up being 700 acres, which barely makes the news. This is what I saw looking over my back fence.
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[Warren Lake]

years ago a tornado went through and over a cottage our father built. when i went up there trees down that would have taken the cottage out but they came down parallel to it instead of on it. Other trees roots were snapped in the ground but trees still standing and leaning. The lady next door would not sleep in her cottage and her hydro line had been taken out by a tree. I cut trees up that I could on the ground and as I was there a helicopter flew over very low and reminded me of the sound of helicopters in apocalypse now. It was low and loud.

Went back with a friend and we took down 8 trees. The one that was threatening her cottage and a few for her on her property. Same as Edward we were lucky on the direction that thing travelled it saved the cottage.

Flying saw blade is wild, Ninjas would be proud, who needs Nunchuks.

[Tom Trees]

Doesn’t get any closer than that.

How about a carbide tip in the white of the eye?
Makes a whole lot of sense to use a crown guard, which one will use every time.
if they've got a suitable high/low fence extrusion, as seen in Roy's old video.

Jack Forsberg recently made a video on the matter of dangerous tablesaws, vs ones what's up to spec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJKTNqeySA

[Tom Trees]

Seems that the recent Sawstop thread about such tech becoming possibly mandatory in the New York Times got removed?
Seeing as the thread got few replies, I'm left supposing it was me mentioning that the Sawstop saws were unsafe,
due to not having a suitable high/low sliding fence extrusion,
and also suitable riving knife which accommodated a proper crown guard, (as per Roy's video)...
and not an add on overhead type which was rigid enough to do the same job.

Thus giving an illusion of safety, which is certainly very dangerous, especially in an educational environment.

Surely mentioning those important factors wouldn't be seen as being unreasonable,
when all I'm trying to do is be able to buy a suitable fence extrusion for my old machine, which then would bring it up to EU/UK spec,
albeit forcibly or otherwise, doesn't really matter as it's in the name of safety, and I've obviously got no skin in the game.

I can mention, I'm certainly not the only one who wants to bring my machine up to EU/UK spec.
Lots of machine users in the USA with older saws could benefit from such.

Question for ye
If I and others keep mentioning this, does anyone think someone will eventually produce something suitable?

(Regarding this for those with such ability, too many saws have such fences in the EU/UK already, and the market is small by comparison, so not likely gonna happen here.)

Cheers
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Tom, the thread got removed because people were posting in a manner not consistent with the Terms of Service for SMC. That's happened quite a few times on that subject so hopefully, this thread will not also suffer the same fate. There is no "free speech" in any forum like this and the TOS is what governs behavior.

[Tom Trees]

Good to know that, I thought it was me who was seen as being unreasonable, concerning the TOS.
Cheers Jim.

All the best
Tom

[Warren Lake]

if this was toms post last night of the british guy and Jack id not be adapting those techniques. The two push sticks and one so long you have to stand in the next room give you no control of the material.

[Tom Trees]

Your fingers Warren, though worth mentioning the HSE advice doesn't particularly stipulate what type/shape of stick you have to use,
just noting that 450mm long, (minimum) or longer is required.You can do what you like in your own workshop, like disregarding true riving knives, and crown guards,
but suggesting others do different to the HSE UK or EU advice is dangerous to newcomers, who likely have no clue about the numbers of incidents
in which tablesaws cause.
There's much emphasis across the pond, on not calling matters which are negligent or could have been avoided, "accidents".

All the best
Tom

[Warren Lake]

At least we drive on the right side of the road :)

Im half british. Not arguing with you, but I dont agree at all with two push sticks like shown. I think not having control of the material is more dangerous than having control. Im no roll model and ive said that many times but ive ripped tons of material and have some experience.

Ill take a photo of a push stick as I have no idea what I used last ones a bit longer than the original I got from the germans. There is no chance id feed material like shown as well as past the british guy in the red lab coat, its more dangerous to not have control of the material. One push stick right hand left hand on the material stop before the blade.

I constantly see guys on saws that dont have a clue. here is one I saw the other night. Ive not had a riving knife to now so that is what im used to past. One cabinet maker showed me a good trick that maybe one day ill share need to see a lawyer first about liability on you tube and if you are or not

For this cut id have two hands not in that position. A reality is distance between the blade and fence and as it gets smaller then more need for a push stick, I dont know what my number is and sure ive broken it enough times however push stick has been used tons of times. stupid plastic thing here as well.

517835

[mike stenson]

it really is no wonder my grandfather was missing the fingers on his right hand.

[Joe Calhoon]

How about a carbide tip in the white of the eye?
Makes a whole lot of sense to use a crown guard, which one will use every time.
if they've got a suitable high/low fence extrusion, as seen in Roy's old video.

Jack Forsberg recently made a video on the matter of dangerous tablesaws, vs ones what's up to spec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJKTNqeySA

Tom, that old UK saw in the Fosberg video is a very dangerous setup. I had seen that years ago and tried it out on my slider by putting a 20” blade in raised all the way up with the fence pulled back like in the video. No thanks for ripping like that! After that we toured some shops in the UK and they usually had one of these saws somewhere in the shop. I questioned the owners about these and they said they were very dangerous and would never let employees use them. The other fault of these saws is the lack of fence adjustment fore and aft.
The HSE are better than what we have in the US for sure but if you want better more up to date safety regs look at the German bghm safety manual.
Ripping can be done more safely on a sliding saw and for that reason you rarely see conventional table saws in mainland European shops anymore. It is possible to rip safety on a conventional saw. Here are a couple photos of ripping narrow pieces on my vintage old iron T17.
the method is right out of the bghm manual.
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Safer yet is ripping on the slider if you have one using F&F
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[Joe Calhoon]

Link to online bghm manual.
https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Seminare/Holzbranche/TSM-Web_BG_96.18.pdf

[Warren Lake]

Lots of interesting ways they do stuff. As a guy on a cabinet saw for over 40 years and recently a small slider enough doesnt apply but have my own ways on stuff not having the same type of saws shown there.

One question for you they show the knife projection as 1.1 MM and is that as Tersa set up? 1.1 is .043 and way past after testing I ended up and always have set up to .050 projection which is pretty close. this wont apply to machines with knife grinders where they are up a fair bit higher figuring you will work the knives five or six times loosing approx .005 each time. It wasnt clear to me on what is lost grinding and honing and I have different thoughts on honing how its done as ive seen it past where I can hear the knife cause the heal from honing is hitting. That is why some of the manuals say not to get wider than 1/32 on honing. I get it it, they need a hone at a steeper angle then the heal wont hit

Getting back to that question. If you measure your tersa what is the difference from the head to the knife tip? I did email Tersa to ask. Past asked about their tolerance and if as stated its excellent could not ask for better just now im curious on knife projection number on tersa after scanning down through what you posted.

I see the lady using the radial and the negative rake, get it as most of us do,. Then I see the two hands on the radial one to pull it out and the other hand on the blade guard. Id skip that and do what the british guy taught us. Straight arm, its never failed me ever.

A friend from school who got a job in a top shop actually the old guy got him a job there told me once he was working on the planer and a board kicked out hit him in the stomach and bounced back into the planer and carried on. He had built in padding not hurt and started laughing.

Thanks for posting that

[Brian Holcombe]

As a practical measure toward better safety, I have air clamps on some machines. On the chop saw this frees up one hand, so if I have a short off cut, I hold the off cut with a push stick so that the off cut doesn't get pulled into the fence or dust chute. I've seen little off cuts become a dangerous projectile or nearly damage the saw a few times.

On the shaper and Maka mortiser I have air clamps also.

I'm setting up the Graule and have plans for building air clamps to hold down material.

For miters, I used to cut them on the chop saw, I stopped doing that a long time ago. I now cut them on the tablesaw, which I used to do by tilting the blade. Now I have a dedicated fixture which clamps to the table. The table itself slides forward. I typically cut with a dado stack so that it wastes all of the material and all of the material becomes sawdust. No flying off cut.

I rarely rip on the tablesaw, much rather use the bandsaw with feeder then run the part through the planer afterward.

[Edward Weber]

If I may ask, what air clamps do you use?

[Jim Becker]

Brian makes a good point..."sharp tools" certainly can do damage, but so can the material. Good workholding fixtures and techniques can help deal with that additional risk. I like the idea of air clamps in that respect and if I was doing the production work it would even be more important because it adds speed to the clamping process.

[Brian Holcombe]

If I may ask, what air clamps do you use?

I made the clamps using Bimba cylinders.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I don't consider my tools as being dangerous.
I do treat them as though they are though.
I believe that's called - respect.

Sort of like our Coon Hound/ Great Pyrenees mix Quigley. Friendly as can be - right up to the point you get in between him and some turkey. The dog goes insane when there's turkey around. You have to respect the fact that he's 105 pounds of turkey-induced-frenzy.

[Edward Weber]

I don't consider my tools as being dangerous.
I do treat them as though they are though.
I believe that's called - respect.


Exactly, this is the way

[Edward Weber]

I made the clamps using Bimba cylinders.
Thanks, I'll look into them

[Tom Trees]

Link to online bghm manual.
https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Seminare/Holzbranche/TSM-Web_BG_96.18.pdf

Vielen Dank, Joe, das ist das beste Dokument, das ich je gesehen habe! :D

So glad you posted this, I've been glossing over some very interesting stuff the last few days.
Certainly miles better than the UK HSE documents I've linked to.
Lots of stuff to go through, which I've not got the chance to research yet,
as many things mentioned are certainly worthy of a thread of it's own

To say it's very much appreciated, would be an understatement,
Cheers

All the best
Tom

[Joe Calhoon]

Agree with Brian about the air clamps, makes everything a more predictable operation. I do a few off line rips on the short stroke slider but if I didn’t have the straight line rip would be doing them on the large format slider or the bandsaw a Brian does. Used a Unisaw for ripping many years and don’t miss that.
Warren, the lady with the hand on the blade guard is running a swing saw. Quite a different animal than the radial. I recently got rid of my crappy Dewalt radial that I used only for rough cutting. It was convenient for production but a little dangerous. To save the blade on the Graule using the chain saw with a jig now.
also never liked mitering on the chop saw. Even the Omga. Prefer the Double miter on the slider. Good that it throws the small off cuts away from the operator.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Joe, couldnt really tell. I saw the negative rake and got that. In the real world ive had to use them enough times with no negative Rake. The british guy that taught us keep the arm straight was right. Probably the only thing learned from him. Sitting with a coffee and my brain is starting to fire ive had two hands on them past as well but mostly one arm straight. It works and ive proven it enough times, it can creep when you do that. You tell what the saw what to do not the other way around.

What is your knife projection on the tersa?. Photo 2b looks like Tersa and its 1.1 MM which is 43.3 thousands of an inch which is .0433. I see they also show high speed steel 2a the same at 1.1mm. I always set to .050 so im right on track. stopped using wood blocks and went with a dial. You dont know what your knife projection is with wood blocks.

[Joe Calhoon]

That sounds about right Warren. I have a Tersa drawing somewhere, when I get a chance I’ll look for it. Two totally different animals though if you are trying to compare to a normal straight knife head.

[Warren Lake]

Years ago I did testing with different knife heights. The higher I went then more noise and I could feel the knives more. This was General stuff so lighter machines smaller heads and thinner knives. I decided on a knife projection of .050. When I got SCM stuff I just went with that rather than what ever the last owners were using. Probably should have dropped rollers but didn't but can at any time.

The SCM stuff worked great with the same knife projection. The machines were heavier, heads were larger, knives were thicker.

Reading your info I see the projection I arrived at was .0057 different than the Tersa. So the German knife projection recommendation on high speed steel and Tersa is the same. Tersa emailed me back and said 1mm, I emailed this and they said they had not seen it and figured it was correct.

Here is your info. 2a is high speed steel, 2b is tersa.

I stopped using wood and went to a dial long ago so I could set to a number every time and have always set to .050 which is one full rotation of that model Dial.

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[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Warren, you probably already know this however 1.1mm is the maximum allowable knife projection for hand fed machines (MAN rated) in the EU.

A shaper with a feeder still requires MAN rated tooling in the EU as the shaper could be hand fed by not using the feeder.

Regards, Rod.

[Warren Lake]

No I didnt. I'm from a different time. Ive hand fed and power fed old school tooling for a long time. I get new stuff minimizes snatch. Proper set up was fine on old school tooling.

The German info does not say maximum or less than it only states 1.1 one so i took that as that is what those are both set to. Maybe in the German writing it says other wise. Id have to send it to some friends to translate if so but the picture should be fine. On my own I already determined that number as working the best for me.

[mike stenson]

Here's your translation.

Adjust the knife protrusion using a gauge. Max 1,1mm

[Larry Edgerton]

Warren, I think the noise from the extra projection comes from the distance to the chipbreaker being less. The noise comes from air compressing and decompressing as the knives pass the chipbreaker, similar to tires. Tire companies recognized this and that is why truck tires are so much quieter now. I experimented on an old Delta I had moving the chipbreaker in really close to the knives and it sounded like a siren. With the Tersa's unique gullet design there is very little air trapped and I suspect that is where the quiet comes from.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Larry makes sense, it was not major, the cut quality decreasing was relevant and not major but heard a different sound. its interesting that I found a number and its the same as what they have for added safety. I think I went lower and it was loading up more. Too long ago to remember. I stick all the time to that number. Also easy as its one full rotation of the dial.

[Rod Sheridan]

How many folks here remember this? I first saw posted in the ET shop (electronics) when I was in the Navy.

ACHTUNG!

Das machine is nicht fur gerfingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der Sprinngwerk, blowenfusen und
poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das Dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das Pockets, relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights...

It hangs in my shop, a present from a German company owner I worked for.

Regards, Rod

[James White]

This is why I rarely turn. Not because I am afraid of the machine. I am just unable to enjoy it due to the anxiety of having a catch as you get closer and closer to the final product. It's not so much worrying about getting hurt but rather loosing all the work you put in. LOL With that said if the lathe was powerful enough to literally wrap you around the part being turned. Then I probably would be afraid.


Being a turner, my favorite cautionary quote is: "other tools can maim you, your lathe can kill you" and this has happened along with very severe head injuries.
A lathe looks like a pretty safe tool compared to something with spinning blades and cutters. High risk is usually by exploding blanks due to cracks or burls that have not easy to see cracks or the supporting wood gets turned away and the burl is only held together with convoluted bark. Centrifugal force is the problem so the pieces can fly in any direction.

[James White]

Automobiles are dangerous!


I really asked because I constantly hear people saying "tablesaws are dangerous", I just don't look at it that way.
Sure, I could do serious damage to myself if I don't pay attention to my tools.
Anything can be dangerous. as I linked to, ladders cause more injuries than tablesaws by a mile.

From the list/s I linked to, I regularly use about 80-90% of the tools listed, apparently I'm just a danger junkie or have some sort of death wish or just like pain or something.
IMO, tools need to be better understood, then respected, not simply irrationally feared.

[Bill Howatt]

This is why I rarely turn. Not because I am afraid of the machine. I am just unable to enjoy it due to the anxiety of having a catch as you get closer and closer to the final product. It's not so much worrying about getting hurt but rather loosing all the work you put in. LOL With that said if the lathe was powerful enough to literally wrap you around the part being turned. Then I probably would be afraid.

Losing the work you've put into it is how view routers :). Really bugged me watching router-based TV shows years ago when they'd zip the thing around with no issues at all which didn't seem to align with my experience.
Instances of turners being wrapped around the workpiece are typically related to loose clothing getting caught resulting is some serious injuries.

[Warren Lake]

done tons of work with routers not had issues with them. Snapped some bits pushing too hard, operator error.

[Edwin Santos]

Seems like a thread about semantics more than woodworking. Next time consider running a poll format.
"Are your tools dangerous yes/no"?
Remove the obfuscation, and I think the votes will come in overwhelmingly on one side. But would the results make anyone smarter?

[Brian Holcombe]

Perhaps consider instead ‘are your methods and practices dangerous’.

[Edward Weber]

Edwin, I think you and Brian are correct, I could have worded the question better but I fear none of it would make a difference.
In gross generalizations
Some who responded simply didn't get what I was trying to reveal.
Others refuse to believe that their methods are more of a danger than the tool being used.
And yet others seem to think that adding "safety" features to a tool absolve them of responsibility.

The entire point is that the tool does what you make it do, you're the operator, you're the one in control, at least you should be. Getting a tool that stops the blade or shuts off or whatever, doesn't solve the underlying issue of what cause the accident.
It's exceedingly difficult to encourage people to work safely when they project their mistakes onto the tool.

Of course there are variables but there are with everything we do.

As for semantics, I believe words matter.
Did the saw cut his finger? OR Did he cut his finger on the saw?
There is a difference, maybe not to his finger but in how the injury is characterized.

Please pay attention ans work safe

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I saw this at a coffee shop & thought of this thread.

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[Edward Weber]

I saw this at a coffee shop & thought of this thread.

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Thanks Maurice, I love it :)

[Mike Henderson]

This is why I rarely turn. Not because I am afraid of the machine. I am just unable to enjoy it due to the anxiety of having a catch as you get closer and closer to the final product. It's not so much worrying about getting hurt but rather loosing all the work you put in. LOL With that said if the lathe was powerful enough to literally wrap you around the part being turned. Then I probably would be afraid.

I often think about that with every project I do - more furniture than turning. As the project develops you have more and more time and effort invested in it. A mistake (such as cut something too short) at the beginning of the project generally means getting a new piece of wood and starting over. A mistake towards the end of the project will ruin a lot of time and supplies invested. And make you question whether you want to do it all over again.

I try to do things that I might mess up on early in the project.

Mike