cope and stick micro shaker?

[David Zaret]

has anyone done a cope and stick micro/skinny shaker setup, or is the consensus that it's always a miter wrap? i talked to Great Lakes a while back, and they hadn't seen it (or at least my rep hadn't), curious what others have done. i would much, much rather make them on the shaper than at the slider or chop saw. thanks!

-- dz

[Kevin Jenness]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

[John Pendery]

I did a micro shaker kitchen about ten years ago before I’d even heard the name for them and did a miter wrap. I was not crazy about the build, but the finished look was nice and clean. If doing again today I would also try to figure out a way to do them on my shaper. Seems like this style is taking off at the moment. I’ll be very interested to see what you come up with, David, and how others have done this style cabinet.

[David Zaret]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz

[Cary Falk]

I have never made them and had to do a search to see what you were talking about so take my opinion for what you paid for it. My first hit on my search shows a rail and stile which is clearly visible in the center door. I would do a cope and stick on a shaper if I were doing it. It would be quicker and easier for me. I think I would even do a dowel or Domino at every joint since they are so narrow and have little glue surface. I hate making mitered picture frames.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

I posted about my quick, simple method for simple, slim, Shaker rails with the router table and dado not too long ago. Some of this may apply.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?303122-Joining-3-4%94-face-frame-rails-and-stiles/page2&p=3251823

[Kevin Jenness]

Yeah, I had to look it up too. Basically a picture frame surrounding a recessed man-made panel with the panel rather than the frame providing the structure. I too would opt for a cope/stick joint rather than a miter wrap. I don't see why a groover and a pair of straight cutters would not work, but if I wanted a rounded inside corner I would have corrugated knives cut. Flushing the back should not be a problem in any case.

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

[Jared Sankovich]

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

Shaker now is anything flat panel. "fancy shaker" is a flat panel with a sticking detail or applied moulding. The illogical next step is raised panel shaker which will come full circle and redefine "shaker" as a door of any style.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

The Shaker Village and museum in Infield NH is neat to visit. The Shakers sure have a pleasing aesthetic. They also found very beautiful places to make their settlements and built things that stand the test of time.

https://shakermuseum.org/

Canterbury NH Too.

https://www.shakers.org/

[Warren Lake]

over the years ive seen the drawers on some higher end kitchens done in some sort of narrow wood around a panel. Ive not done it before and thought ill think about it one day but since I do rail and styles its not been a thing ive needed or asked to do. To me the three doors shown are two different things. The white is rail and style the other two are a panel banded in solid, more than a quarter inch solid in width and overlapping the panel and having some profile. There isnt much meat to be machining on the narrow examples.

Ive noted that type of construction on drawers enough times and seems to me its always some sort of profiled raised banding solid wood that is mitred at every corner. On regular doors rail and style doors I don't see mitred rail and style doors even though its done. I can see it in a very high end veneer job like some past stuff. Its a different thing.

Likely seen the one or two banded samples on doors for the first time. Not up on the latest. Where ever it was I looked and enough that I remember now but takes me time to digest stuff and wasn't sure how I felt about it Are designers leading us around. Is this a money driven change. It would cut solid cost down. Reinventing the wheel. Konegsigg making carbon fibre wheels for his cars, I get that.

Does some one have a photo of this showing a finished piece, is it a better look in some way or just a change. When drawers fronts are narrow then your rails take up a lot of panel area so most people reduce the rails to some amount. Easier with a flat panel than raised unless you did a panel like Moser used to do with a very small cope on the outside of the panel.

[Kevin Jenness]

Shaker now is anything flat panel. "fancy shaker" is a flat panel with a sticking detail or applied moulding. The illogical next step is raised panel shaker which will come full circle and redefine "shaker" as a door of any style.

Chris Becksvoort's Shaker Legacy is a good reference for variations in traditional Shaker cabinetwork, which includes raised and fielded panels and beaded frames. It doesn't show any "skinny Shaker" doors, but who knows what use they might have made of plywood? They certainly were not averse to technological innovations.

Years ago I showed a visiting French cabinetmaker the flat panel doors in the fireplace surround at my grandmother's 1840's house in western Maine. He said the doors were backward because the panel raises were on the reverse face. The maker had chosen a flat recessed "Shaker" panel look and beveled the backs so as to use panel stock at hand.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Kevin Jenness, I watched a YouTube book review for Shaker Legacy and requested the book via I.L.L.
I.L.L. is a free service offered by most libraries.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzEdnTkdPXU

[John Pendery]

The need for a flush door back to receive hinges was one reason I opted for the miter wrap in the past. My shop is much better equipped now, but still toss around the best build method for this style cabinet door. One thing I do remember being nice about a miter wrap method was milling the “rails and stiles” was super simple, and with stops setup cutting to length was also very quick. Doing it over I would potentially want to develop an efficient cope and stick method, but I still wonder the best method considering the rails and stiles here don’t provide any structural support as they normally do and seem more like glorified edge banding. If you wind up with the job I’ll be interested to see how you choose to tackle it.

[David Zaret]

The need for a flush door back to receive hinges was one reason I opted for the miter wrap in the past. My shop is much better equipped now, but still toss around the best build method for this style cabinet door. One thing I do remember being nice about a miter wrap method was milling the “rails and stiles” was super simple, and with stops setup cutting to length was also very quick. Doing it over I would potentially want to develop an efficient cope and stick method, but I still wonder the best method considering the rails and stiles here don’t provide any structural support as they normally do and seem more like glorified edge banding. If you wind up with the job I’ll be interested to see how you choose to tackle it.

i wouldn't consider doing a cope and stick with a floating panel - it would still rely on a full thickness panel, flush on the back, to use standard euro hardware. the only difference would be the corner joints, and the efficiency of using the shaper to make them.

[John Pendery]

David, understood. I was only thinking out loud in my previous post if this style is in fact more efficient to build how one would traditionally do cope and sticking on the shaper of if this is an exception due to just how narrow the parts are. Really was just echoing your original question I guess. Maybe it gets as simple as differing from one shop equipped with a stile and rail cabinet door clamp to another with miter door clamping table.

[Rich Engelhardt]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

[David Zaret]

David, understood. I was only thinking out loud in my previous post if this style is in fact more efficient to build how one would traditionally do cope and sticking on the shaper of if this is an exception due to just how narrow the parts are. Really was just echoing your original question I guess. Maybe it gets as simple as differing from one shop equipped with a stile and rail cabinet door clamp to another with miter door clamping table.

yeah it's a strange situation. very large project, big money on the line, and the competitor we are up against seemingly specified "cope and stick." i think that the architect might actually not know the answer. we have a query in with them to get clear info.

if i had more space, i would have a big case/door clamp. and a SLRS. oh, and a 13' edge bander. oh, and an enormous heated panel press. ... but alas, there's no room, and my shop can't be further expanded. oh well. first word problems.

[John Pendery]

yeah it's a strange situation. very large project, big money on the line, and the competitor we are up against seemingly specified "cope and stick." i think that the architect might actually not know the answer. we have a query in with them to get clear info.

if i had more space, i would have a big case/door clamp. and a SLRS. oh, and a 13' edge bander. oh, and an enormous heated panel press. ... but alas, there's no room, and my shop can't be further expanded. oh well. first word problems.


Haha I feel ya man! I feel the pain of shop squeeze everyday. It can be irritating when architects and designers weigh in heavily on construction details, sometimes not quite knowing what those details really mean from a practical or aesthetic standpoint. Good luck with the bid and hope you land the job. Keep us posted how you execute if it gets there. If a micro shaker job ever comes my way again I’ll reference back to your experience!

[David Zaret]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz

[andrew whicker]

So how do the hinges work on this narrow of a band? You use euro hinges directly into the panel? (edit: I guess they do just go into the panel)

Edit: Here is a thread on the Festool page w/ some good photos. I'm having a hard time deciphering the words the guy uses to describe, but maybe I'm just not in the proper headspace at the moment. I did work until 1 last night!

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/various-woodworking-crafts-topics/how-are-slim-shaker-cabinet-doors-and-drawer-fronts-made/

[Jared Sankovich]

So how do the hinges work on this narrow of a band? You use euro hinges directly into the panel? (edit: I guess they do just go into the panel)

Edit: Here is a thread on the Festool page w/ some good photos. I'm having a hard time deciphering the words the guy uses to describe, but maybe I'm just not in the proper headspace at the moment. I did work until 1 last night!

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/various-woodworking-crafts-topics/how-are-slim-shaker-cabinet-doors-and-drawer-fronts-made/

They are usually 3/4 panels with applied moulding on the perimeter and flat backs. I've seen some with floating panels and full sized rails/stiles on the back, but with micro fronts.

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

This is how I do it. A pair of 10" discs for tenon side and an adjustable groover for the the cope. I always do 1" shouldered tenons. but thats just me.

[William Hodge]

Enfield Shaker Village has flat panel cupboards, but the entry, interior, and closet doors have moldings, and some raised panels. The cope and stick refers to the cutters.

[Rich Engelhardt]

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz
It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

[David Zaret]

It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

absolutely agree. we'll see what the architect says.

[Joe Calhoon]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
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[John Pendery]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
517506

Joe, you have articulated my line of thinking very well here. The inside edge radius was one of the reasons I chose for the miter wrap back when I did that kitchen in this style, along with the flush back to the panel. Glad I’m not all alone and completely crazy!

[Joe Calhoon]

John, I would picture a section something like this. Glue and clamp with PVA double coating the ply. Would be plenty strong.

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[John Pendery]

Joe, that’s exactly how I constructed the doors and drawer fronts. Milling the edging in longer runs and cutting to length made for quick work. The flush seam on the back was what bothered me, but I couldn’t figure a way around it for hinges. I’m not sure why it bothered me as I remember it coming out nicely, but it’s my lingering memory for some reason

[David Zaret]

the architect came back calling for a mitered corner. so i'm proceeding that way, but i'm going to do a slightly more complex profile. 1" x 1" frame, but i'm going to do a groove profile, and run a rabbet on the panel. i'll design it so that the bottom lines up flush, i won't have to worry about vertical movement, and i'll account for a radius on the top and bottom edge covering the face to account for finish bridging. we'll see how it goes.

[John Pendery]

David, I really like your idea of a groove profile paired with a rabbet on what I assume would be the backside of the panel. Post pictures once you get into it if you have time.

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes, the rebate and groove sounds like a good idea.

[Warren Lake]

waltzcraft makes those doors, saw them in a past flyer. have to look up what they look like in a kitchen application.

[Larry Edgerton]

John, I would picture a section something like this. Glue and clamp with PVA double coating the ply. Would be plenty strong.

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Sometimes I do doors with a bead that way. Square M&T doors with a wrap. No issues. Sometimes I put the bead on the door rather than the face frame to gain that little bit of drawer space and still keep my proportions right.

[David Zaret]

the architect came back and wants only 1/2" visible on the face. my gut feel is to do a cutter approximating this - again, i really want to cut the intersection of the frame and the panel so that the finish doesn't bridge.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

Chris Becksvoort's Shaker Legacy is a good reference for variations in traditional Shaker cabinetwork,

Thanks Kevin Jenness! the Shaker Legacy is a remarkable book. I have looked at all of the pictures and read a few paragraphs. I had previously read about the Shakers utopian philosophy and wisdom concerning Women's rights and Civil Rights. They really nailed it on many levels. It is too bad their philosophy also makes them destined to become extinct.
I learned from the book that the doors, windows, rake, and some other artifacts at my inlaws summer camp near Enfield NH are made by or are copies of the produce of the Enfield Shakers.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I finished the book. I was brought up by Post-Puritans and married a Post-Puritan young lady. The fact that 4 of the Shaker Gatherings went on to become prisons and / or correctional institutions resonates in a dark, ironic, and rather confusing way. I liked the authors take on the tapered drawer sides. I wish I could see the end grain in the image where he proposes that off cuts of clapboard siding were used. When quarter sawn clapboards are "gotten out" in the most thrifty way they are naturally tapered.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The "Dark Day" is an interesting bit of Shaker history. This article tells more of the story.

https://www.shakermuseum.us/sun-not-appear-dark-day