How to age maple?

[John TenEyck]

I'm having a bit of an issue with a customer who wants the hard maple and mahogany I used to have a more golden glow, with less contrast between the two woods. The table is essentially built, so whatever I do has to be done on both woods unless I do some very careful masking which I'd really like to avoid for obvious reasons.

Does anyone know how to give maple that aged yellow look? I'm hoping for some sort of chemical process that effects maple but not mahogany. Long shot, I know. I'm open to any approach, actually. I'm well versed in using dyes and stains, too, but that's not a good option unless I mask off the mahogany to do it.

Does UV light age maple? Seems like it would.

Any help, direction, etc. appreciated.

John

[Jamie Buxton]

To my eye, the ambering of oil-based varnish has a big effect on maple, but not as much on dark woods like mahogany. Sure, it does change mahogany, but to me not as noticeably as maple.

[John TenEyck]

That's right, Jamie, and that's one avenue I'm looking at. What I've tried, however, is not reducing the contrast between the maple and mahogany enough. Any idea who's varnish has the most amber hue? Arm-R-Seal is very pale. True Value's is pretty amber and has a much more pronounced (beneficial) effect. I've never used Waterlox so I don't know how dark it is.

Amber shellac has a similar effect, but less than varnish.

Thanks,

John

[Ben Ellenberger]

I got some garnet shellac flakes that mixed up to a dark, aged look. I don’t particularly care for it, but it might be what you are looking for.

I’ve only used blonde shellac before, so I’m not sure how big of a contrast that garnet has compared to amber.

[Ron Citerone]

That's right, Jamie, and that's one avenue I'm looking at. What I've tried, however, is not reducing the contrast between the maple and mahogany enough. Any idea who's varnish has the most amber hue? Arm-R-Seal is very pale. True Value's is pretty amber and has a much more pronounced (beneficial) effect. I've never used Waterlox so I don't know how dark it is.

Amber shellac has a similar effect, but less than varnish.

Thanks,

John

The jewelry armoire I just posted in the project forum has Waterlox on it if you want an idea.

[Christian Hawkshaw]

What about boiled linseed oil?

[Rob Luter]

I know this will sound silly......

I made a dovetail box for the hearth several years ago. We use it to store pine cones for fire starting. It's soft maple with some misc spalting and mineral streaks and I wanted an "Antique" look. I had a Mason jar full of mineral spirits that I had used to clean a stain brush. The spirits were a amberish/brownish color as a result. Basically a VERY diluted stain. I wetted a rag and gave the whole box a good rubdown. Once dry I applied shellac. It looks like a vintage piece. Original thread with crappy photos here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?102162-First-quot-Real-quot-Dovetails&highlight=Maple+Box

[John TenEyck]

I hate BLO. But I did try tung oil and it doesn't give enough color change so I suspect BLO alone won't either. I also tried the 1/3 varnish, 1/3 tung oil, and 1/3 mineral spirits approach. Looks great, but far too light.

John

[John TenEyck]

That's the best approach I've found so far. I've made a lot of samples using amber shellac, with and without the addition of one or the other Transtint dye to it. The best combination so far has been the addition of Dark Vintage Maple or Brown Mahogany, and then the OB varnish topcoat. The Dark Vintage Maple dye gives an amber look, while the Brown Mahogany gives it more of a reddish tone. Actually, that one gives the least contrast between the maple and mahogany, though it does not meet the golden glow definition.

John

[John TenEyck]

That's pretty much the color I'd like Rob. Any recollection of which stains were in that mélange?

John

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for that Ron. That's not nearly golden/dark enough, so you saved me money and time not chasing Waterlox.

John

[Edward Weber]

Does UV light age maple? Seems like it would.

Any help, direction, etc. appreciated.

John
In my area, I would just set a sample piece out in the sun for a few hours, it will darken.
I don't know what your weather conditions are but it may br worth a try.

[John TenEyck]

I'll give that a try if the sun shines in the next few days. I suspect it will take a long time here in WNY for it to have much effect. Cherry darkens noticeably in a few days, but I think maple has a slower response. Given we aren't likely to see consistent sunshine for another month or so, this probably isn't going to be an option, as much as I'd like to go that route if it worked.

I looked into UV bulbs, but that's out due to cost.

John

[Rob Luter]

That's pretty much the color I'd like Rob. Any recollection of which stains were in that mélange?

John

Not a clue. I've slept since then ;).

When I made the box (2009) It seems I was experimenting with Mission style finishes. It could have been a Golden Oak or a Fruitwood, or a mix of both. I'd been using it to clean brushes. It looked like strong tea or weak coffee in the jar.

Here it is 15 years later.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53600326538_560989485c_b.jpg

[roger wiegand]

I understand that violin makers use sodium nitrite and UV or sunlight to "tan" maple prior to varnishing. I have no experience with that, but might be worth a look.

[John TenEyck]

I found an article about using sodium nitrite and UV/sunlight, Roger, at makingtheviolin.com. Interesting article. I can't see myself trying it though, because of all the testing involved and the need to find a way to get uniform UV exposure on the table.

Ammonia fuming was another approach. Not going to try that either for the same reasons.

Thanks for making me aware of that idea.

John

[Edward Weber]

I put a piece of maple out in the sun this morning, I'll check back in after an 8 hour sunbath

[John TenEyck]

Here's a picture of one of the Lane Acclaim tables, at least 50 years old, so the colors include the effect of aging.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP3VA5l4fEzimz0xp7dynj0zofE395eJX0JuoiLoJzmcJ cH-jYePmBC5zGa9McfQjoJUX8yv8RExSXuum5kOMBwHrqjK5w0M4X th8NLO9-1KlMC04HQtWn0M_LU5LitaXP0bzkkjDPqvfE0OJaaEEi8Aw=w7 20-h479-s-no?authuser=1

These tables typically were made from walnut and oak, but that doesn't look like oak to me. In any case, that's the golden glow my customer is referring to.

Here is a finish recipe I previously proposed:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczOxb5t18nCnhff4LnAYCDOVCbiELeRUMFSMsdH5_rTog0 1uCXQ5GyJMgFiCeup_t5PMLQG0PvosvprmNLwyfkr-KPqXRo7-hlAtX3QAJ4BQTfdDeZ_6tu5IkgsdyXpmVwHeFRmfLGmH_QORaX cANfvUrg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1


I've made dozens and dozens of specimens. Here are a couple more after I started looking at OB varnish as the topcoat to get a golden glow.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNvftBN9sbzXlX0Eejy87Y9sTE45PNDttqmbFOX8U2S90 49G2vn1BPbmAyzGmXg46j2itIxGAyUfYpqV1yqL5bkJWZ2hCjW maYb2jFu9gzoHiS5rpk5ehg-OEZQ2hfR_vHD6Rk5V6gvPrPWkZr2_Ol4wg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczN5dVaZkAg4YdW8ly2oVnQiyHQA_p-3jD1V0jecAU8t1W_16vds1WlUl9SPhOsPZo8I3T4LPwqESJnsI VT10-dG_7SWtl6DC590dEfDN0uo7mVDMcJMvoWec5eoWIBGARbcgrbv 8YsoFA_YEHIxUN4ZYg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1

I haven't shown the last two specimens to my customer yet. The first one seems directionally correct, but I'd like to get a little deeper amber on the maple. It was made with amber shellac + some Transtint Dark Vintage Maple, followed by the OB varnish, just one coat so more might make it darker. The other obvious idea would be to add more dye to the amber shellac.

Any thoughts?

John

[Todd Zucker]

This is not going to help much, but maybe some reference to help you save some Transtint samples if you go that route.

517267

The table top on the bottom is 1/2 vintage maple, 1/2 medium brown, .5 oz per pint total, on soft maple, with a few coats of Arm R Seal gloss, from a few days ago. Darker than what you want. The small piece on top is half honey amber half golden brown on hard maple with several coats of Arm R Seal (from about 1 year ago, if that matters, but sitting on a shelf and not in daylight).

[Todd Zucker]

One more, just because the color comes out better from the other direction.

517268

[Christian Hawkshaw]

Here's a picture of one of the Lane Acclaim tables, at least 50 years old, so the colors include the effect of aging.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP3VA5l4fEzimz0xp7dynj0zofE395eJX0JuoiLoJzmcJ cH-jYePmBC5zGa9McfQjoJUX8yv8RExSXuum5kOMBwHrqjK5w0M4X th8NLO9-1KlMC04HQtWn0M_LU5LitaXP0bzkkjDPqvfE0OJaaEEi8Aw=w7 20-h479-s-no?authuser=1

These tables typically were made from walnut and oak, but that doesn't look like oak to me. In any case, that's the golden glow my customer is referring to.

Here is a finish recipe I previously proposed:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczOxb5t18nCnhff4LnAYCDOVCbiELeRUMFSMsdH5_rTog0 1uCXQ5GyJMgFiCeup_t5PMLQG0PvosvprmNLwyfkr-KPqXRo7-hlAtX3QAJ4BQTfdDeZ_6tu5IkgsdyXpmVwHeFRmfLGmH_QORaX cANfvUrg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1


I've made dozens and dozens of specimens. Here are a couple more after I started looking at OB varnish as the topcoat to get a golden glow.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNvftBN9sbzXlX0Eejy87Y9sTE45PNDttqmbFOX8U2S90 49G2vn1BPbmAyzGmXg46j2itIxGAyUfYpqV1yqL5bkJWZ2hCjW maYb2jFu9gzoHiS5rpk5ehg-OEZQ2hfR_vHD6Rk5V6gvPrPWkZr2_Ol4wg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczN5dVaZkAg4YdW8ly2oVnQiyHQA_p-3jD1V0jecAU8t1W_16vds1WlUl9SPhOsPZo8I3T4LPwqESJnsI VT10-dG_7SWtl6DC590dEfDN0uo7mVDMcJMvoWec5eoWIBGARbcgrbv 8YsoFA_YEHIxUN4ZYg=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1

I haven't shown the last two specimens to my customer yet. The first one seems directionally correct, but I'd like to get a little deeper amber on the maple. It was made with amber shellac + some Transtint Dark Vintage Maple, followed by the OB varnish, just one coat so more might make it darker. The other obvious idea would be to add more dye to the amber shellac.

Any thoughts?

John


Dying seems like the way to go...your first sample does look like it is in the neighborhood, but just more dye is needed. Todd's sample is close as well. You are definitely more patient than me doing so many samples :).

[andrew whicker]

517276

Nitric acid below:
517277

This looks too yellow:

517278


The book: the art of coloring wood by Brian miller

[andrew whicker]

517279

More info on maple

[Prashun Patel]

John, which OB varnish are you using?

My initial instinct is to use Waterlox. It's on the darker side of the OB varnishes.

Or, dying with Amber Additive Transtint followed by your OB varnish?

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much, Andrew. The NGR recipe is pretty much what I'm looking for. I made a specimen with Transtint Honey Amber, but it was far too yellow. This recipe adds a little Golden Brown to it to tone down the yellow.

John

[John TenEyck]

John, which OB varnish are you using?

My initial instinct is to use Waterlox. It's on the darker side of the OB varnishes.

Or, dying with Amber Additive Transtint followed by your OB varnish?


The darkest varnish I have is actually from True Value. The maple drawer fronts on the armoire Ron talked about above were done with Waterlox and looked much too light. Do you have any maple you've done with Waterlox?

The specimen I made with Honey Amber Transtint produced a very bright yellow. I'll evaluate it again with a much lower concentration. It looked great on the mahogany though. Anything with a yellow or orange tint looks really good on the mahogany.

Thanks.

John

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much Todd. That is exactly the same recipe as in the reference Andrew showed.

Gotta order some TT Golden Brown.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox. I did this yesterday. YMMV.



517322

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for doing that, Prashun. Is that mahogany or Sapele? The maple looks just about right. And which Waterlox did you use, OSF, or? FYI, I need a satin sheen, too, and I'd rather not have to run it out to get there.

What a wonderful thing it would be to use nothing more than a wipe on varnish. Arm-R-Seal alone looks nothing like that, practically no change in color.

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

John

[Prashun Patel]

That's "Honduran" mahogany or so I was told when sold. It is definitely not sapelle.

I used Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (Original formulation).

Are you building a film? OSF tends to settle from gloss at application to semi-gloss at cure.

Also, as I know you know, if you don't build film with this, it will be satin. You could seal with it, high grit sand, then final polishing coat.

[John TenEyck]

That's "Honduran" mahogany or so I was told when sold. It is definitely not sapelle.

I used Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (Original formulation).

Are you building a film? OSF tends to settle from gloss at application to semi-gloss at cure.

Also, as I know you know, if you don't build film with this, it will be satin. You could seal with it, high grit sand, then final polishing coat.

Thanks Prashun. From my reading Honduran mahogany was grown in Honduras. It's no longer exported so you either got stuff still in the pipeline, of someone sold you Genuine mahogany and called it Honduran. The good news is Genuine mahogany is the same stuff but came from one of the adjacent countries where it grows. That's what I'm using for my table.

OK, back to Waterlox. There is Waterlox Original High Gloss Finish, Waterlox Original Satin Finish, and Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. From the literature, the Sealer/Finish can be used on its own, or as a sealer and then topcoated with the High Gloss or Satin Finish.

You're using the Original Sealer/Finish. How do you typically use it? I'm not the high grit sanding type. 325 is about as high as I ever go. I'm a complete newbie about Waterlox.

Thanks,

John

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (make sure you get "Original Formula" not "VOC formula") is can be applied exactly as you do your ArmRSeal. It's just a wiping phenolic varnish. High Gloss Finish and Satin Finish are higher solids full strength varnishes. Also - and this is critical for you - for some reason those two latter products are much lighter in color than the Original Sealer Finish.

I use the OSF as a top coat all the time as a sealer (under Target WB finishes for color) or as the top coat for other things.

It's about as durable as ArmRSeal.

I sand to 400-600, then flood on a couple coats, then sand w 600 and maybe even 1000. Then I wipe on maybe 2 final coats.

But you can use whatever normal wipe-on varnish regimen you like. It can be brushed on (if you prefer bulletproof), or wiped on/wiped off "in-the-wood".

It won't be rocket science for you.

I should also note that this product is pretty durable. I have it on a shower bench that is about 6 years old. Still going strong.

Also, note that Waterlox has a stronger odor out of the can than most other products I've used.

You mentioned you use a varnish from True Value. I wonder if it's the same private label brand that I once got from Ace Hardware, which was also a phenolic resin varnish and looked/applied much like Waterlox.

[John TenEyck]

Funny, the can of varnish I have actually is from Ace Hardware and it's pretty dark. After seeing the photo you took of Waterlox OSF earlier, I went and got the sample I had applied one coat of the Ace varnish to, and then applied another. Here's what it looks like. It's gloss, but the table will get a satin finish.



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNqnWmDu4N9bfx-2zsA4gY7TtHqeD_X7KpVozqOKpVeSZBVRNmt3wQCYCzWJy5hA7 1ghsfNCNftf09ep2iAiiwDaOnwJYTScJIpqdDZv7DfBHgLiAAd RggdyctFwQu46Zk4Ng81rwkF22ffhwzgYzM8kw=w1574-h885-s-no?authuser=1

And the samples you prepared, for comparison:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczOpCQcf7zdLR4x5ilP6WnwHAMwMHqhiBVC-nQqhPD2VGtBssWnY7-qs2hZHtj0Hf6fBrjnQyLGzKxYww6cHKItOdis_2p_QS6lpBPoS yCaaVhnmdZy_VO3FSOdR3HKpcm46eoEbrnnPSpDqzScxHV243w =w664-h885-s-no?authuser=1

The Waterlox looks a lot darker on the mahogany, but it wasn't sanded and is quite a bit darker than the wood I used. It's darker on the maple, for sure, especially if you only used one coat. So, I'll get some and try it, both by itself and over the NGR dye in Andrew's post.

Thanks very much for your continued help, Prashun.

John

[Stan Calow]

Interesting discussion. I've bought Honduran Mahogany in the last several years from this place:https://greenerlumber.com Sinker logs to be precise.

Regarding UV darkening, anyone ever used tanning beds was a practical option for faster results?