Band saw bolting

[Mark Gibney]

My 32" Centauro ST 800 band saw vibrates like crazy, and I'm thinking of bolting it to the concrete floor.
The wheels are balanced, they have max 10/1000" run-out on the edge of the rim, just a few thousandths on the rim, they are coplanar. The brand new blade is welded straight.

The saw has a sheet metal body, and so is not that heavy, maybe about 1,000 lbs.

Any thoughts?
Should I use a dampener of some type, maybe like this one?
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thanks, Mark

[Jamie Buxton]

Your bandsaw vibrates like crazy. That’s not right. I’d track that down, and fix it.

[Tom Trees]

You could try aligning your bottom wheel and motor to suit the upper wheel.
Either by a scribing beam on wheels accurate enough to draw a straight line,
or laser pen on an extended shaft affixed in place of the wheel retaining bolt & washer,

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And if your Centauro has a foot mounted motor, and not a flange mounted one, then it's likely readily adjustable without
determined intervention.
i.e adjustable mounting plate for flange mounted motor.
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That plate being adjustable on two axis, provided column is checked prior to adjusting co-planar..
(not wanting to do this, if likewise, then you'd better have loose belts, cuz things can get nasty in an instant)

Some tips for levelling and checking that portion of the column might be of interest
Old blade being suggested for such checking, due to the set of the blade being compressed.
Four blocks for settling both levelling plumblines, backlight, could use tape instead of magnets
a third line for wheel depth, or accounting for differing tire thickness, the latter not likely important on Centauro saws.
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I was chasing my tail attempting wheel alignment with a beam and rule, until I used the tape on the base,
as the beam (now with scribing function)
showed that a 24" wheel needed to have the faces or the rim, dressed to within 0.2/0.3 or thereabouts, and not 0.5mm as my upper wheel was,
in order to draw a straight line...
as depending on where the beam is placed beforehand, would potentially give a misreading of around 4mm.
So if trying with a scribing beam, rather than laser, then check every spot on the wheel, in order to see the pen landing on the line,
i.e not getting another line parallel to it.
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I'm sure you can find the rest of the spiel.

All the best
Tom

[John TenEyck]

Take the blade off and turn it on. If the vibration is the same as with the blade on, then the problem is somewhere in the lower wheel/bearings/drive motor. If it doesn't vibrate then the problem is in the upper wheel/bearings or blade.

John

[Andrew Hughes]

I would like to suggest you look for a twist on the base. I had a laguna saw that had a nasty vibration sitting in one spot but ran smoothly in another.
My remedy was to shim under the base on one corner.
The base metal was very thin on the laguna saw.
Good Luck

[Mark Gibney]

John, the saw runs without any vibration without the blade being installed.
The bearings are new, the wheels are all balanced, and I think they are not out of whack on any axis - but I'll have to read Tom's method a few times to gain a better understanding.
Plus it's the same outcome, vibrating like a banshee, with three different blades.

Which has me thinking about bolting to the floor, but if there are specifics I should look at regarding the upper wheel that I'm not aware of, I'm happy to follow any line of inquiry.

Andrew I'll look into the frame being possibly twisted, thanks.

Jamie, for sure. That's my hope!

[Jamie Buxton]

Andrew's post leads to another thought, or maybe its the same one. Maybe your floor is not flat, so the saw is rocking - more than it is vibrating. With the power off, try rocking the saw. If it does rock, slide a thin wedge or shim under one of the high corners until it doesn't rock. The turn the saw on, and see if you've fixed it.

[John TenEyck]

Mark, if the saw has no vibration with the blade off, and it vibrates with 3 different blades installed, then that suggests the problem is in the upper wheel/bearings/spring/carriage. Were the wheels statically or dynamically balanced? Static balancing doesn't necessarily mean all is well, but if you are confident the wheels are ok, then I'd be looking at those other things.

If the saw runs smoothly with the blade off, then bolting it to the floor doesn't seem like it's necessary.

John

[Richard Coers]

John, the saw runs without any vibration without the blade being installed.
The bearings are new, the wheels are all balanced, and I think they are not out of whack on any axis - but I'll have to read Tom's method a few times to gain a better understanding.
Plus it's the same outcome, vibrating like a banshee, with three different blades.

Which has me thinking about bolting to the floor, but if there are specifics I should look at regarding the upper wheel that I'm not aware of, I'm happy to follow any line of inquiry.

Andrew I'll look into the frame being possibly twisted, thanks.

Jamie, for sure. That's my hope!
I suspect the top bearings won't last long if you do bolt it to the floor. The vibration will still be in the machine and it has to go somewhere. That means the bearings. Take the blade off and spin the top wheel. If the vibration is really that bad, the heavy spot in the wheel will always end up on the bottom. Mark that spot and spin a few more times. If that spot always ends up at the bottom, zip tie a few washers to the top. Drill two small holes through the wheel and zip tie if you can for a permanent solution. You could epoxy the weights on there as well.

[Mark Gibney]

I don't know what the terms static and dynamic balancing mean, and I spent about ten minutes trying to get an understanding from googling the terms, but am none the wiser. Most search results come back about car wheels and the computerized dynamic balancing available.

I spun each wheel over twenty times, marking where it settles, and adjusting with small added weight if necessary. The repeated the 20+ spins.
The upper wheel didn't have any repeated pattern of where it stopped. The lower wheel did, and I added about 1/2 oz weight. After this it was random for 25 more spins.

My local band saw place said they can balance the wheels, but they use the exact same method, just some dude spinning the wheel by hand and so on.

[Chris Parks]

My 20c worth. If you bolt it down something is going to break so that would not be a good idea. I presume you have spun the bottom wheel using the motor with no blade and it does not vibrate, now get a socket and adaptor for a drill and spin the top one and see what happens, if that is ok add the blade and remove the motor and drive the assembly with a drill. The vibration is caused by something rotating so it needs to be tracked down systematically. Balancing as you have tried is static balancing, dynamic balancing is done with the part rotating at a fairly high speed which could be attempted using a drill but it would be very hit and miss and not something I would do.

[Bill Dufour]

My little mill/drill had a sheet metal guard vibrate like crazy. I was going to paint it inside with grafting seal to soak up the vibration. I stuck a free harbor fright magnetic parts tray on the side and it no longer makes any noise. that extra weight was enough to calm things down.
BilLD

[Jay Norton]

What is the condition of the tires on the saw?

I saw big vibration improvements on a 14” Delta clone I had after replacing the old rubber tires with urethane tires.

[Warren Lake]

bill dux seal works best, it comes in pugs past 5 lbs now cant find the same supplier I did my general bandsaw covers big difference but need to do the base. Been tryhing to find a supplier for quantity and the distrbutor gave me their places and they are whacked price wise id pay less a home depot stupid. Past bought it wholesale in quantity so still trying to find a supplier of it and will.

[Bill Dufour]

Grafting seal is very similar to water based roofing tar. Truck bed lining is possible as well.
Bill D

[andy bessette]

What is the condition of the tires on the saw?...

Good question.

[Mark Gibney]

"Take the blade off and spin the top wheel. If the vibration is really that bad, the heavy spot in the wheel will always end up on the bottom. Mark that spot and spin a few more times. If that spot always ends up at the bottom, zip tie a few washers to the top."

Richard, I've already done this, as I said on the first page. I guess this is what I now know as static balancing. Perhaps dynamic balancing would be of more benefit.

[Ole Anderson]

My Craftsman/Rikon vibrated like crazy until I noticed the drive belt was coming apart.

[Mike Cutler]

Mark

Yes, it can be bolted to the floor. I would not use any type of dampener unless I needed to.Through bolt it through some dense, rubber matting, ie Stall Mat from Tractor supply.
A Hilti or drop in anchor can be used. If you can, use a drop in anchor, it's better, as it's easier to hide when you sell your house. It's not going to hurt the machine to bolt it to the floor. It may not help either, but you have a big bandsaw, and it wouldn't take much to get it dancing around.
Static balancing is what you have been doing. If your wheels are interchangeable, you could just swap one with the other, but that may still leave you with issues.
Have you always this issue with the saw?

[Mark Gibney]

Mike, this is an older saw that I've been restoring, for a couple of years. I finally got the time to get it over the line so I just recently got it running.
I'll look now for that rubber matting. Thanks.

[Bill Dufour]

Dynamic balancing is done with the wheel off placed onto a machine. The wheel is spun up to some speed and smoke and mirrors figure out where to place weights to get it balanced. used by most tire shops these days. It balances in three axis not just one with gravity.
In theory a wheel shop can do your bandsaw wheel but they have to make it fit their machines hub which is usually too large to fit a small bandsaw wheels center bore. Maybe a bicycle shop?
Biill D.

[Roger Feeley]

Warren,
id never heard of dux seal and had to look it up. I would kind of like to add some soundproofing to my bandsaw. I see that dux seal is a putty. How would you apply it? Now I wonder what they use on SS sinks?

[Bill Dufour]

Duct seal stiff brush or putty knife.
BilL D

[Jerry Bruette]

I got duct seal at Menards in the electrical department. Lowes or Home Depot may have it. It's used for sealing up conduit in a box. You just work it with your hands like modeling clay and stuff it in the conduit and mold it around the wires.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, this is an older saw that I've been restoring, for a couple of years. I finally got the time to get it over the line so I just recently got it running.
I'll look now for that rubber matting. Thanks.

Mark

I have an 5HP, 850lb. commercial washing machine. Unloaded and with the water turned off to it, spinning dry, it will still dance around the floor if it's not bolted down.
If nothing else, bolting it down may help you find the problem.

[andy bessette]

Unsubscribed.

[Tom Trees]

What is the condition of the tires on the saw?.



Good question.

No doubt of huge importance there, but I'd personally see what things were like in regards to alignment,
and be sure of things first, so one could try some tricks with the expensive tires before splashing out...
Tires which might likely be grooved if the same as the Centauro SP, which sounds like this "sheet metal body" saw to me?

Just might be the case of the apex of the camber being nibbled off, so a little tape in the groove might just work.
Though with that said, I'd bet with aligned wheels, one wouldn't have such trouble, and merely experience beam tension issues.

If the changeover to fixed motors were made today from the best in the business, I reckon fixing the tires, even if it may sort things for now,
wouldn't be in anyway seen as a preferable way to do things, even for the busy folks.
Seems those are seemingly happy to have one wheel facing east, and the other wheel facing west?

Aligning wheels not too overcomplicated a concept really,
I've posted things in detail on a recent Centauro thread, and just going to perhaps give some clearer pictures,
if some older pics might get the point across, (even if some changes were made on the CO 600 thread mentioned above)
Right side of the wheel shown earlier, and here's the left of the wheel for ye now! ...
The lines drawn won't meet up in the middle, and if you try splitting the difference between the errors mentioned earlier, or other sequences for that matter..
the 4mm error dependant on where you choose to place the timber will not give a true reading
if the edges of the wheel aren't accurate enough. (if using a scribing beam, i.e spirit level with a pen on the end)
enter someone selling some cheap tat from overseas for bandsaw wheel alignment?... nah, those same companies would rather keep schtum instead! ;)

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And pray the motor will be in line if one has a non adjustable flange or face mount....
Better have loose belts to test that.

Not wishing to know, then you might just experience sound bearings working themselves loose in the wheel bores,
especially if you plan of feeding miles of timber through the saw.
Not being able to afford an engineer to fix, I had to bodge things with a sleeve from a toaster, which I was a bit apprehensive about as you can imagine.
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And sure hoping something like this won't happen some day
Skip to 1:02 if ye ne'r see a bandsaw jump before!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkpxKWKkME

[Warren Lake]

comes in pugs of two sizes usually,. Its a very thick stringy putty like stuff so you just pull some amount off and press it onto the bandsaw cover. Ordered it one time and came in a can as a brush on, wrong stuff.

Home depot has it Duct Seal DS110 1 lb pug Gardner Bender is the brand

[Chris Parks]

Mike, this is an older saw that I've been restoring, for a couple of years. I finally got the time to get it over the line so I just recently got it running.
I'll look now for that rubber matting. Thanks.

Why not sort out the vibration issue. Rotation causes the problem there are 4 things that rotate on a bandsaw and it is one of those that is causing the problem.

[Mark Gibney]

The vibration issue - yes - this thread is about sorting out the vibration issue.
My time to work on the machine is sporadic and I'll update the thread when I have something interesting to contribute.

[vince mastrosimone]

If you have a dial indicator, check the run out of the top wheel both the vertical and horizontal planes. The wheel may not be round or flat.

[Tom Trees]

Run-out is a scary word, it suggests something along the lines of the wheel bores not being accurate.
I was getting the exact same scribed lines before and after having to sleeve my bearings.
which I done before dressing the face/lip of the wheels.
I was worried that some kinda thing like a skewed bore or something along those lines prior to that, which wasn't the case at all.

And regarding a possible heavy spot, not that I had issue there
I would be leaving that out until everything else was ruled out, a rather unanimous rule of machinery.
but...
If dressing the faces/lips of the wheels in order to lay something onto them with surety,
one would likely notice the correlation of a small discrepancy in the thickness of the lip, and the highest spot when tramming or a clock if somehow getting the job done cleanly,
as the nice eased edge on most wheels, does a very good job of hiding things, and that's with inspecting them with a keen eye,
If unbalanced wheels did turn out to be problematic thereafter, one could ease that edge roundover more favourably.. what might be chosen to be done after one swaps the wheel back to front and addresses most of the meat on the other side.

Though for a Centauro, which most likely has an accurate groove machined into the wheels, no need to worry about aligning tires flush with the edge of the wheel,
so worth making a tool for the job if tolerable, likely a more popular or intelligent choice, well...for a foot mounted machine like the specific era CO for instance.

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A bit messy for a dial indicator, and I only had a mere 0.5mm of a discrepancy. (unnoticable by eye)
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I ended up turning my file upside down with the messy cast iron draw filing, so making sure the stock is thick enough instead,
so one cannot use it upside down.
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I understand the dial would be useful for those wheels with a taper lock system, ala Forrest, but not on any of the "modern" Italian wheels I've ever seen.
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Tom