Putting my toe in the water...

[Kevin Herber]

Recently I was reviewing my motivations with WW. I decided that I want to concentrate heavily on fine joinery of the Neanderthal type. I have a pretty full setup of power tools but I have almost no hand tools.

I'm thinking my first quality hand tool purchase will be a saw and chisels for dovetailing. The question is, what kind of saw and chisels?

I've read about Japanese pull saws and also back saws. I need advice and opinions on using one style or the other. Please recommend brands too.

Going hand in hand (pun intended) with the saw will be chisels. I would appreciate information on those as well.

I'm willing to spend a bit to get top quality as I've learned "you get what you pay for." As I am a complete newby in this area, if I've left out any pertinent considerations I would appreciate everyone's insight.

Thanks! -- Kevin

[Tim Leo]

You left out the third leg of the hand tool trifecta...saws, chisels, and hand planes.

Be careful...it is a very slippery slope.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm going to offer an opinion that may be different than what you're looking for.

Rather than go full bore into hand tool work, add hand tool techniques slowly to your woodworking. For example, make a chest or bookcase and cut the dados and rabbets by hand, but use power tools for the rest of the project. Ask some woodworkers in your area for advice or take a class on the subject.

If you're happy with the work and it meets your quality standards, add dovetails to your next project.

In other words, move into hand tools slowly. There's too much there to do it all at once. If you try, you'll make a lot of mistakes in your purchases. Also, while it may seem romantic to do woodworking by hand, it's hard work, both physically and to obtain the same precision that you can get with power tools. MANY people try hand tools and then decide it's just not worth it and go back to power tools.

That being said, you really should have a few hand tools, even if you mostly work with power tools. A good set of bench chisels is a start. A good (high quality) set is the Hirsch set offered by Lee Valley, but a set of the Marples blue handle is an excellent starter set, and can be used for rough work after you graduate to a higher quality set.

You should have a block plane, and here I do recommend a high quality plane, either the Lee Valley or Lee-Nielsen low angle plane. Both are high quality.

For a saw, I'd recommend starting with one of the disposable Japanese pull saws.

You also need to learn how to sharpen the chisels and plane blades.

There's a bunch more but go slow.

Mike

[Mark Stutz]

Kevin,
Mike brings up some good points. The other thing to ask yourself...is "What do I want out of this?" A little over a year ago I was strictly a 'Normite", and I say that fondly. I got interested in hand tools, primarily from reading this forum and exposure to our own Dave Anderson's shop! I jumped in with both feet! The result is that for the last year I have spent a lot of time slowly acquiring tools...some new, some old and in need of rehab. I've learned to sharpen the cutting edges reasonably well, and have spent a lot of time making practice joints, lots of shavings, and haveing a great time.
What was my "shop output" during that time? Nada, zero, zip, nothing! Now this doesn't matter a lick to me, since it is primarily the process that has mattered. LOML is happy because I'm happy and out of her way! But if you have a lot of projects in the works on the waiting list, then working into it gradually is a good idea, just not the way I chose.
Stay tuned however, for a completely Neander project, hopefully to be completed in the next month!
I'll let others chime in on what to get...vintage vs. new, Japanese vs. western, etc. And lest I forget...Welcome to the dark side!:D ;

Mark

[Michael Gabbay]

Kevin - Mike has good advice. Take it one tool or joint at a time. I recently did a buch of drawers with handcut dovetails. 6 drawers in all. I really enjoyed doing them by hand. Each time I got better at it. Now I can cut DTs with confidence and know where I screwed up! :D DTs are good since you get saw, chisel and planing work in one.

Take it slow and play around with scrap. Also, sharpening and tool setup are really key to enjoying hand tools or hating them.

HAVE FUN!

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Kevin, I only have experience with western saws and I think a saw is a very personal tool since handle size and shape, blade thickness and sharpening can all affect the way the tool performs. I prefer a pistol grip saw with a fairly thin kerf sharpened very aggressively. An aggressively sharpened saw is a little harder to start, but I like the way they cut better. I don't think you have to spend a lot of a saw as long as you think the handle is comfortable and its sharpened to your liking. Any good brand chisel will do the job and be fairly durable, I think the handle size and length of the chisel are important. Again, its up to you to determine what you like. I prefer a smaller chisel for dovetailing, but you may not. I see you are in RR, I live in SA and would be happy to have you come down some weekend and try out a few different chisels and saws I have on hand.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Kevin,

Since you live near Austin , I highly recommend taking the one day hand tool class at Homestead Heritage School of Woodworking (http://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/woodworking.html) up near Waco. They will teach you how to layout, mark and cut dados, mortice & tenon, and dovetails with a really basic kit of inexpensive hand tools. The Woodcraft up here in Dallas offers a good hand tool class so I would check out what the Woodcraft in Austin offers.

Wendell

[Kevin Herber]

Kevin, I only have experience with western saws and I think a saw is a very personal tool since handle size and shape, blade thickness and sharpening can all affect the way the tool performs. I prefer a pistol grip saw with a fairly thin kerf sharpened very aggressively. An aggressively sharpened saw is a little harder to start, but I like the way they cut better. I don't think you have to spend a lot of a saw as long as you think the handle is comfortable and its sharpened to your liking. Any good brand chisel will do the job and be fairly durable, I think the handle size and length of the chisel are important. Again, its up to you to determine what you like. I prefer a smaller chisel for dovetailing, but you may not. I see you are in RR, I live in SA and would be happy to have you come down some weekend and try out a few different chisels and saws I have on hand.
Thanks for the offer Dennis. That sounds like a bit of fun. I'll keep it in mind. I think I may go for the class idea below and then I'll have a better feel for what you offer.

[Kevin Herber]

Kevin,

Since you live near Austin , I highly recommend taking the one day hand tool class at Homestead Heritage School of Woodworking (http://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/woodworking.html) up near Waco. They will teach you how to layout, mark and cut dados, mortice & tenon, and dovetails with a really basic kit of inexpensive hand tools. The Woodcraft up here in Dallas offers a good hand tool class so I would check out what the Woodcraft in Austin offers.

Wendell
That's a great idea Wendell. I went up to Homestead Heritage some time ago but unfortunately they were closed that day. So I haven't taken a class. I see their handtool class fills pretty quickly so I assume it is pretty good. I think I'll grovel for SWMBO and see what happens....:D

[James Owen]

Recently I was reviewing my motivations with WW. I decided that I want to concentrate heavily on fine joinery of the Neanderthal type. I have a pretty full setup of power tools but I have almost no hand tools.

I'm thinking my first quality hand tool purchase will be a saw and chisels for dovetailing. The question is, what kind of saw and chisels?

I've read about Japanese pull saws and also back saws. I need advice and opinions on using one style or the other. Please recommend brands too.

Going hand in hand (pun intended) with the saw will be chisels. I would appreciate information on those as well.

I'm willing to spend a bit to get top quality as I've learned "you get what you pay for." As I am a complete newby in this area, if I've left out any pertinent considerations I would appreciate everyone's insight.

Thanks! -- Kevin

Kevin,

Welcome to the old-fashioned way of woodworking!!

Mike H has some good advice.

Here are a couple of ideas that I haven't seen anyone else in this thread cover yet:

Books: Before you sink a lot of money into tools, you might want to read up a bit. Here are a couple of books that I found to be full of useful information: The Handplane Book; Traditional Woodworking Techniques; both of David Charlesworth's books; Old Ways of Working Wood; Hand Tools:Their Ways and Workings; The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools; Choosing and Using Hand Tools; and Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools. There are other excellent books out there; these are just some of the ones that I've read and can whole-heartedly recommend.

Saws: The Shark and Z Saw brands are pretty decent for replaceable blade Japanese saws. I really, really like Lie-Nielsen's dovetail saw! Others will recommend an old Disston; I don't have any experience with them, so I'll refrain from further comment. Perhaps Mike Wenzloff or Bob Smalser could chime in here -- they're both much more knowledgeable on saws than I'll ever be.

Chisels: I like the Japanese chisels that Woodcraft sells. Moderate price and they hold an edge well.

Planes: First, I wouldn't bother with the new-manufactured Stanleys or similar-cost planes, unless you want to spend a LOT of time and effort tuning them up; even then, the results may be just so-so....

For metal planes, I'd recommend either older Stanley, MF, Sargent, etc., (pre-WW II vintage) or new Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or Clifton.

The older Stanleys, etc., can be had for very good prices (as little as $20 or $30, including shipping) for some of the common sizes (#4 or #5). A little cleaning and a couple of hours tuning will give you an excellent, very usable plane.

Or, you could go with new. My preference in new planes is for the LNs, but many others will recommend the Veritas. The Veritas tend to give a bit more plane for the $$. Both companies make excellent planes and have exceptional customer service. The Cliftons are nice, too, so you really can't go wrong with any of the three.

And then there is the entire world of wooden planes.... My experience and knowledge in this area is pretty limited, so maybe someone else more versed in wooden planes can cover them in detail.
_____

Once you start using this method of woodworking, you'll find that you have much more control over what happens to the wood, and that being able to listen to music or hold a conversation while working on your piece of wood is a real plus.

Best of luck, and keep us informed on how you're coming along.

James

[Jerry Palmer]

Good thing someone mentioned your living around Austin or I wouldn't have noticed it. I'm just down the road in Cedar Park.

Gotta disagree with one thing Mike said, that about getting the accuracy of your power tools with hand tools. Even with a mediocre smoothing plane you can expect to get shaving in the neighborhood of .002". The ability to consistantly remove shaving of wood that thin is well beyond power woodworking tools. 1/64" is a bit more than .015". A decent shoulder plane will give you perfect tenons a few thousandths of an inch at a time. The micro adjuster for my table saw rip fence has more thread slop than that. No longer will you need to mess with adding and losing shims to your dado stack. If you've only got a couple to do, mark the piece to be cut with the piece that it will house and cut perfect dados and grooves in less time than it would take to set the dado set up.

So forget putting your toe in the water, dive on in, you'll be glad you did.

[Jamey Amrine]

James mentioned books above. If you can find them, outstanding books on traditional joinery methods (showing various ways to do just about any joint you could imagine) are those by Bernard Jones. At least one of them is out of print. After searching for it for a few months, I stumbled upon it for $7 in a local used book store. They are called the Complete Woodworker (the better of the two) and the Practical Woodworker. Amazon claims to have them in stock now. I got the Pratical Woodworker through them with no problem. I am guessing that the other was on the verge of a new printing and that is why they couldn't track it down. You can buy the pair for $25 with free shipping right now.

As for tools, I would focus on a jack and block plane, a backsaw for joinery, a panel saw, a set of bench chisels, a mortise chisel or two (1/4" first, then maybe 3/8" and then 1/2"), a mallet, and good marking and measuring tools. Add a brace and bits and an eggbeater drill, and there is very little you can't do with that kit. You can fill in other planes and such as they are needed. Other than what I have listed above, the only tools in my shop that get frequent use are my plow plane and smoother. You could survive at first without those. Obviously a jointer comes in somewhere, and then you could start thinking about specialized planes like shoulder and rabbets and such as the need arises.

Anyway, there you have my two cents.

-Jamey

[Mike Wenzloff]

Saws: The Shark and Z Saw brands are pretty decent for replaceable blade Japanese saws. I really, really like Lie-Nielsen's dovetail saw! Others will recommend an old Disston; I don't have any experience with them, so I'll refrain from further comment. Perhaps Mike Wenzloff or Bob Smalser could chime in here -- they're both much more knowledgeable on saws than I'll ever be.
Well, I'm sure Bob knows much more than I. He certainly has a broader experience. Old tools are a great way to begin, albeit sometimes a slower way.

From reading through the replies, I think I take away a few really good pieces of advice. One is to pick up tools as you need them, another that tools are a personal choice. Though spoken concerning saws specifically, it is pretty true of each hand tool selection.

Regardless of whether you begin to do more and more with hand tools, it seems to me that a decent set of chisels will serve you well no matter how far down the slope you go--so that's what I would select first. With those are the saws--just as you indicate, Kevin. So I would try out different flavors of saws specifically related to what you desire to make. In other words, there's no sense in obtaining a full size saw if you want it to cut smaller joinery.

And, as also mentioned, visit stores, visit other wood workers, and try out everything you can get your hands on. In other words, make an informed decision. Then as you begin to use the tools on real projects, you will be better able to judge other needs and wants.

I wish I could just give you a list that would end up being "the right" choice. But I cannot. The next best thing is to simply say, buy the best you can find--and they are not necessarily the most expensive nor even new tools. But do it after trying different types.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

For books, I'll toss "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making" by Ernest Joyce, Alan Peters, and Patrick Spielman. I picked this book up for less than $4 used on Amazon, it came from a used book dealer in Washington.

I also have the "The Complete Woodworker" by Jones, which a local galoot gave to me at a recent BAG-A-THON, but the Joyce book is better, IMO.

If you want a good book that deals with joinery primarily, my kids gave me a book for the holidays called "Success with Joints" by Ralph Laughton, which could have meant something entirely different during the '60s, but this is a woodworking book!;-)

Also, Frank Klausz has a great video on creating a dovetailed drawer, very interesting style he uses, with very little if any marking tools. It's a great way to practice, IMO, as it gets you to cutting dovetails without spending a lot of time with the setup.

Rob Cosman's dovetail videos are highly reccomended also, I have learned some nice tips from them.

Others gave you quite a bit of info, I prefer a western style saw myself, and would highly reccomend the LN dovetail saw (which I don't own). I own a lot of old vintage saws, and I can tell you first hand that the majority are useless until sharpened. If you do decide to go the vintage saw route, plan on getting a file or two and learn how to sharpen it. While the LN dovetail saw is on the pricey side, there are few vintage saws wtih a dovetail profile (i.e., shorter, thinner blade, with fine rip teeth). The LN seems to take time for folks to use, but it's a great saw and I have one very similar to it (an 8" Harris made in London).

There are many saws for $10-$30 on ebay, but be prepared to sharpen most of them. Local fleas are good to find saws as well. As pointed out, a saw is a personal choice.

To get going, you might consider getting a set of 4 Marples chisels at Woodcraft, a used dovetail/tenon saw (like a 10" Disston, while not a dovetail saw specific, it can be used for dovetails and other joinery), and a couple planes (block plane and/or smoother). You probably have a square already, and a sliding bevel helps for laying the joinery out.

Consider Mike Wenzloff's saws that he's producing now, or Leif Hanson's "Norse Woodsmith" saws that he's starting up again, or the LN, Adrias, etc...but before you do that why not just get an inexpensive used saw. Someone on SMC might be able to help you out. I would be willing to sell you a decent saw at a fair price and would sharpen it for you if you wanted. Be careful with new inexpensive saws, because many of them need a good sharpening before being useful also. I found that out with a new Crown gent's saw I bought recentely to put a new handle on as a gift, it was useless on hardwoods until it was sharpened. This also presents another saw, there are many gent style saws available and they cut joinery well. An old Disston 68 is a terrific saw if you can find one at a reasonable price. And Japanese saws are decent also, and many folks have found them easy to use. I have a disposable Dozuki, it's not a bad saw. I originally bought it when I got interested in dovetail joinery, but find it useful for others tasks.

It really depends on how much $$$s you want to invest. You can get started on very little, and you can invest quite a bit if you want really good tools. Test the water out before dumping a boatload of $$$s. Once you get started, it's not half bad to keep a lifeline on hand, it could assist you from sliding down the slippery slope...;)