Spindle gouge bevel angle?

[John Kananis]

I have a 1/2" sorby detail gouge that I have ground at 40° (also removed the heel) and it works ok now that I moved away from the jigs and started sharpening by hand... but it's still just an ok tool. I now have a d-way detail spindle gouge (1/2") on the way and was thinking about trying a 25° bevel when it suddenly occurred to me that I shouldn't just trow arbitrary angles at the work and ask some folks that know better. I've watched and read a ton but there's so much that's either left vague or that contradicts the last thing I read. Thanks for the guidance.

[Richard Coers]

I can't see how a bevel angle makes a difference from an okay tool to a great tool. I only find the quality of the steel to make that difference. Your arms can adjust to work with any and every angle, so why would that change performance?

[Edward Weber]

There is no single correct answer on bevel angle.
The bevel angle on a spindle/detail gouge partially determines how aggressive the cut is.
With a low, 25 degree bevel angle, you get more of a paring cut. This can be great for softer woods and fine detail work but does dull more quickly.
With a higher, 40 degree bevel angle, you get more of a scoop like an SRG or bowl gouge. This can be good for harder woods, making the edge last longer but does not provide a fine enough point for some detail work.
this is one of my detail gouges, ground between 35-40
516464

[Bill Howatt]

I consider this a good place to start and then if you think you need something better, try it. Sharpening always seems to turn into a "personal choice" thing very quickly.

https://thompsonlathetools.com/sharpening/

[John Kananis]

I can't see how a bevel angle makes a difference from an okay tool to a great tool. I only find the quality of the steel to make that difference. Your arms can adjust to work with any and every angle, so why would that change performance?

Richard, I'm surprised to hear this - are certain angles not easier to work with under any particular circumstances? Thanks for chiming in.


There is no single correct answer on bevel angle.
The bevel angle on a spindle/detail gouge partially determines how aggressive the cut is.
With a low, 25 degree bevel angle, you get more of a paring cut. This can be great for softer woods and fine detail work but does dull more quickly.
With a higher, 40 degree bevel angle, you get more of a scoop like an SRG or bowl gouge. This can be good for harder woods, making the edge last longer but does not provide a fine enough point for some detail work.
this is one of my detail gouges, ground between 35-40
516464

Edward, than you - this actually helps me grasp things a bit better. I notice that in your picture, you don't grind off the heel of the tool?...I thought I was supposed to.


I consider this a good place to start and then if you think you need something better, try it. Sharpening always seems to turn into a "personal choice" thing very quickly.

https://thompsonlathetools.com/sharpening/

Bill, thanks for the link. I use a Wolverine platform but I've move onto sharpening with just the platform. I also have the turner's jig for my tormek, which I don't use any more either. The grinder is located 1 pace from my lathe and I like touching up in 5 seconds and getting back to work. Regardless, moral of the story is I can handle creating the profiles by hand, I'm just often unsure of which profile to use.

[Richard Coers]

I don't know John, after 39 years of turning I've never stopped turning, ground on a different bevel angle, and then declared that it was now a better tool. Could be just me, but all that 40/40 talk and one bevel angle over another from touring turners has always baffled me since curls fly off the wood no matter what the angle is.

[John Kananis]

I couldn't possibly answer the question as I don't even have 39 months as a turner. My lack of knowledge and experience is what brings me here to ask questions. I've not heard this from anyone else (that angle doesn't matter) yet but I have very little access to experienced turners so thanks for sharing.


I don't know John, after 39 years of turning I've never stopped turning, ground on a different bevel angle, and then declared that it was now a better tool. Could be just me, but all that 40/40 talk and one bevel angle over another from touring turners has always baffled me since curls fly off the wood no matter what the angle is.

[Thomas Wilson80]

I don't know John, after 39 years of turning I've never stopped turning, ground on a different bevel angle, and then declared that it was now a better tool. Could be just me, but all that 40/40 talk and one bevel angle over another from touring turners has always baffled me since curls fly off the wood no matter what the angle is.

I agree with this to some extent (and certainly respect your experience as I’ve only been turning a few years). That being said, I recently started using a detail gouge with a 35 degree bevel compared to my regular spindle gouge with a 45 degree bevel and I am amazed at the difference. Yes, I can get great cuts with both tools, but with the detail gouge and different angle, I can access the wood in totally different ways. It has become my go-to for spindle turning and I now use it 90% of the time for the things I turn.

I appreciate all the experience and opinions on this site and enjoy trying various techniques, finishes, etc. Some things I’ve picked up here have been super helpful and other things that many people seem to love have never caught on for me.

John, I would recommend you try a few typical grinds that multiple turners commonly use (from this forum or qualified YouTube videos from professional turners or sites like CraftSupplies) and let us know what you think.

‘Good luck,
Tom

[John Kananis]

So I just found a clip by Cindy Drozda that help a tremendous amount. Its the sweep angle that I should be changing, not the grind angle. Thanks everyone.

[Dave Fritz]

I've found there's a difference between Sorby, Thompson, D-Way and Robust gouge profiles. One set up won't necessarily be acceptable for all of them. I have to work with them and eventually find what works best for me. At best I'm an average turner and don't have a lot of flexibility in tool choice. We have a fellow in our club that can make shavings with almost any tool you give him. He's very skilled and can make adjustments as needed. I can't.

[John Kananis]

Thanks for the input, Dave. The D-Way gets here tomorrow and my plan is to keep the sorby at a standard grind as it works well for certain things and then sweep the wings of the D-Way to about 20°. I'm trying to keep things at 40 and 20 when/where I can so I can leave my grinding platforms as they are and only spend a little time touching edges up as needed. I'm excited for the new gouge - I've already picked out the walnut for the handle.

[Edward Weber]

The cut you get from spindle and detail gouges are partially influenced by the flute shape, the same way bowl gouges are.
The Heel;
I don't typically ease off the heel of spindle gouges. Spindle gouges are primarily for convex turnings and the heel rarely, if ever, gets in the way. If it does, I usually switch to another tool with a finer profile.

Bowl gouges cut the outside as well as the inside (concave) surface of the bowl, this is where easing off the heel is most beneficial.
When cutting a tight radius, like making the transition from wall to bottom, the heel can often come in contact, trailing behind the cut. This can make you come out of the cut and it can also bruise the wood, leaving marks sometimes not always seen until after sanding.
I do ease the heel on my bowl gouges.
516478
I'll sometimes do a third grind if necessary

[John Kananis]

Edward, thanks for this. Sometimes, when your hear (read) things out loud, they make more sense.

[Richard Coers]

I couldn't possibly answer the question as I don't even have 39 months as a turner. My lack of knowledge and experience is what brings me here to ask questions. I've not heard this from anyone else (that angle doesn't matter) yet but I have very little access to experienced turners so thanks for sharing.
If you base all your decisions on the advice of internet hobbiest, then you would expect the bevel to be critical. But ask a grizzly old veteran, and you will understand my advice. Rudy Osolnik said he put his kids through college making candle sticks and only had around 3 gouges in his shop. He sure didn't care if the bevel angle was 36 degrees or 42 degrees. Internet folks will argue about something being .005" out of flat. Same comparison.

[Richard Coers]

I agree with this to some extent (and certainly respect your experience as I’ve only been turning a few years). That being said, I recently started using a detail gouge with a 35 degree bevel compared to my regular spindle gouge with a 45 degree bevel and I am amazed at the difference. Yes, I can get great cuts with both tools, but with the detail gouge and different angle, I can access the wood in totally different ways. It has become my go-to for spindle turning and I now use it 90% of the time for the things I turn.

I appreciate all the experience and opinions on this site and enjoy trying various techniques, finishes, etc. Some things I’ve picked up here have been super helpful and other things that many people seem to love have never caught on for me.

John, I would recommend you try a few typical grinds that multiple turners commonly use (from this forum or qualified YouTube videos from professional turners or sites like CraftSupplies) and let us know what you think.

‘Good luck,
Tom
You can't compare a detail and spindle gouge based solely on the bevel angle. The flutes are different as well as the amount of material below the flute. Two different tools and an apples and oranges comparison.

[John Kananis]

I've received solid advice so far - yours included so thanks for that. And I'll take perspective from anywhere I can find it at this point. I have friends that are both pro and hobbiest woodworkers but none that really know how to use a lathe "properly". I've joined my (most local) club so we'll see what I learn there. I've taken 2 classes (not great ones but got my feet wet). I've also purchased some material (the Ashley Harwood classes explained a lot the Stuart Batty concepts in a different way which gave better perspective - for instance). Why wouldn't I asked experienced people such as yourselves for input? Learning on my own is challenging enough.


If you base all your decisions on the advice of internet hobbiest, then you would expect the bevel to be critical. But ask a grizzly old veteran, and you will understand my advice. Rudy Osolnik said he put his kids through college making candle sticks and only had around 3 gouges in his shop. He sure didn't care if the bevel angle was 36 degrees or 42 degrees. Internet folks will argue about something being .005" out of flat. Same comparison.

[Edward Weber]

If you base all your decisions on the advice of internet hobbiest, then you would expect the bevel to be critical. But ask a grizzly old veteran, and you will understand my advice. Rudy Osolnik said he put his kids through college making candle sticks and only had around 3 gouges in his shop. He sure didn't care if the bevel angle was 36 degrees or 42 degrees. Internet folks will argue about something being .005" out of flat. Same comparison.
The OP is trying to learn.
I get your point but everyone has to learn in their own way at their own pace.
Also, Rude Osolnik is the name you're looking for.

[Dave Fritz]

The OP is trying to learn.
I get your point but everyone has to learn in their own way at their own pace.
Also, Rude Osolnik is the name you're looking for.

That's the point I was trying to make. Some turners are novices and some are extra skilled and some of us are plugging along. People have to start somewhere. There are a lot of variables in turning.

[John Kananis]

Thanks, Edward and Dave, for realizing my struggle. This is a difficult journey, flying solo. I'm trying to saturate myself with as much information as possible and let my brain and hands figure it all out. At the same time, I'm trying to catch my mistakes before they become bad habits... but how am I supposed to do that without knowing what I'm doing wrong? There's a lot of information out there but you have to pick through and what one person explains about a tool or process, usually isn't complete so you have to look at multiple sources, which have contradictions between them. Then, once you get to yt, you have to know that most people on there are idiots and find the content that really helps, which delivers other contradictions.

I get the absurdity of .005 out of flat, I'm a life long woodworker and earn money from my tools (just not my lathe yet haha) so my expectations, I hope, are grounded in reality but I'm figuring it out on my own.

[Bill Howatt]

John, could it be you are overthinking the beyond-the-basics theory part?
You usually find out quickly if you are doing it wrong: the tool grabs, scares you and there is an ugly groove in your workpiece. The other indicator you may be able to do better is if the surface needs standing at 80 grit or less. These have to do with things you know, ride the bevel, keep tools sharp, and shear is better than scrape but scraping is useful too. If you can't ride the bevel then find out why and adjust the angle or gouge heel.
Turning is like a lot of other things, you can research all you want but it boils down to practice, practice and more practice to get good at it and you will create some firewood doing it. Much more learn by doing with a bit of learn by reading.

[Edward Weber]

Thanks, Edward and Dave, for realizing my struggle. This is a difficult journey, flying solo. I'm trying to saturate myself with as much information as possible and let my brain and hands figure it all out. At the same time, I'm trying to catch my mistakes before they become bad habits... but how am I supposed to do that without knowing what I'm doing wrong? There's a lot of information out there but you have to pick through and what one person explains about a tool or process, usually isn't complete so you have to look at multiple sources, which have contradictions between them. Then, once you get to yt, you have to know that most people on there are idiots and find the content that really helps, which delivers other contradictions.

I get the absurdity of .005 out of flat, I'm a life long woodworker and earn money from my tools (just not my lathe yet haha) so my expectations, I hope, are grounded in reality but I'm figuring it out on my own.

I applaud your efforts and all I can say is, BTDT
As Bill says, you get to a point when you need to actually turn. If your method starts to lean one way towards known techniques or another that feels more comfortable to you, that's all fine.

There are plenty of turners that work in a somewhat "unconventional" manner. I don't turn anything at Jimmy Clewes RPM. I don't rough out bowls with scrapers like Reed Gray does, none of it matters, so long as you're safe and get the end result you want.

Personally, from your posts, I would say you're about done researching and ready to make some chips fly. Turning is just like any other type of woodworking, some people can talk it to death without much to show for it. Go make something, everyone turns a nice dog dish at some point. :D

[John Kananis]

Oh I've made trash bags of shavings (and firewood), I just come away with questions. Thanks again everyone for the help!!

[Richard Coers]

I've received solid advice so far - yours included so thanks for that. And I'll take perspective from anywhere I can find it at this point. I have friends that are both pro and hobbiest woodworkers but none that really know how to use a lathe "properly". I've joined my (most local) club so we'll see what I learn there. I've taken 2 classes (not great ones but got my feet wet). I've also purchased some material (the Ashley Harwood classes explained a lot the Stuart Batty concepts in a different way which gave better perspective - for instance). Why wouldn't I asked experienced people such as yourselves for input? Learning on my own is challenging enough.
There is some confusion here I guess. Asking a well experienced turner is definitely the thing to do, that is why I try to help. The only better way to learn is hands on with that pro. I took a class with John Jordan in the 90s. He would call out instructions from across the room, solely from listening to someone work. "RAISE THE END OF THE HANDLE was his most often yelled instruction. That kind of experience will cut months from your learning. I thought I was saying the opposite of your response. I'm trying to caution you about what advice you get from other new turners that get hung up on the tiniest detail of making their tools just like the YouTube experts. There are 100 poor hobbiest videos to each single professional video put on by a really experienced turner. And with the way many pros present their signature grinds to make income, even those are "skewed" to get you to spend the big money on tooling from them. You are being bombarded by marketing, compared to being bombarded with plain ole simple technique. Turning is the most difficult part of woodworking to properly learn. It's all on the operator, no fences or jigs to rely on. But it is not brain surgery, requiring the precision of surgical tools to make things happen. Yes you need surgical sharpness on the tools, but we still have muscles and joints to present the tool in any direction. These days, marketing even tells us we don't skills. According to them you can shove this piece of carbide into a block of spinning wood and turn like a pro. Convinced folks believe it and then market their first bowl on Etsy, only to buy more simple tools that don't even need to be sharpened.

[Richard Coers]

The OP is trying to learn.
I get your point but everyone has to learn in their own way at their own pace.
Also, Rude Osolnik is the name you're looking for.
Auto correct changed the given name, sorry I didn't catch that. It didn't try to change the surname anyway. I disagree that everyone HAS to learn in their own way and their own pace based on my experience. I got my first lathe based solely on a sale price ad in Fine Woodworking in 1985. Tools and some add looking expansion jaw chuck included. (4 jaw scroll chucks for woodworking hadn't been invented yet) I had so much trouble turning in my shop, I just parked the machine in the corner. Books were the only way to turn then. Years latter I went to a regional symposium in St. Louis. It was like an epiphany. Turning consumed my hobby world after that. Then videos came out and I watched all kinds of Beta video tapes. All that fine instruction changed me from a parked lathe to being an active turner who even had a solo gallery show. If you don't like my approach, that's fine. My style of typing or something I can't identify, seems to upset people. I'm just trying to share facts, I'm not trying to say I'm superior to anyone. But darn it, I thought sharing all my decades of experience would help others. But age and experience must not count for much these days since I get so much negativity to what I type. I can only assume that is why a very high percentage of professional woodturners don't help for free on forums. They must also get people who want to disagree with their comments and decided not to waste their time. I might as well join that group instead.

[John Kananis]

Richard, the challenges you faced (and the reason your lathe sat unused in the beginning) are what I'm trying to avoid. I hope I didn't make you feel that the advice you shared wasn't valued - it is. It would be great if I han an experienced "turning buddy" or real life guidance beyond what's available but alas...

[John Kananis]

I've re-ground the gouge (its quite smaller than what it started as...) like in your picture but with a steeper top bevel (probably close to 40°) and it's working quite well now (thanksfor the direction)!! My only complaint is edge longevity but I just got the D-Way in the mail so I'm going to make a handle for it and try it out (hopefully tomorrow) - I understand the steel is much better than the sorby m2. Also, the sweep angle is much closer to yours so I'm looking forward to seeing which works better for me.


There is no single correct answer on bevel angle.
The bevel angle on a spindle/detail gouge partially determines how aggressive the cut is.
With a low, 25 degree bevel angle, you get more of a paring cut. This can be great for softer woods and fine detail work but does dull more quickly.
With a higher, 40 degree bevel angle, you get more of a scoop like an SRG or bowl gouge. This can be good for harder woods, making the edge last longer but does not provide a fine enough point for some detail work.
this is one of my detail gouges, ground between 35-40
516464

[STUART Robertson]

Cat's can be skinned in many ways...by all accounts...
Spindle turning really is significantly different to bowl turning.
Watch Curtis Buchanan (if I remember his name correctly)turning chair spindles or Alan Batty's old vids(Stuarts father)
Watch Alan Lacer on the skew.
Cyndy Drozda is great.
The bevel is part of the means of controlling the cut,glide it don't ride it.It also defines in part the presentation angle and the behaviour of the cut.
Compare trying to go across the bottom of some bowls with a 45 deg. vs doing the same cut with an ~85 deg bottom gouge.
With the 45 you simply run out of bevel support,particularly with deeper forms.
You will find Ashley Harwood's courses very sound,and being Stuart Batty's perhaps star pupil,is a proponent of 40/40.
Joining a turning club is usually a good move,seek out the most competent members as most are not.
Learn how to shear cut.
As in other areas of wood surfacing,you're looking to get as clean a cut as possible,minimizing tear out and sanding.
Have a look at WOW too.

[Kevin Jenness]

The bevel angle on a spindle gouge is not critical, somewhere between 30* and 45* will work; the more acute the angle the better it will work on softwoods and the faster it will dull. The shape, particularly the diameter and the amount of sweep on the wings, is more important.

As far as general learning goes you will do best with hands-on instruction from a good turner. Joining a club is a good step- most clubs have members who will act as mentors. I started off like Richard trying to learn from books and had to unlearn some bad habits later, not because the books were wrong but because I didn't know how to translate them into actual cutting technique. As Ashley Harwood said, "Practice makes permanent". If you practice the wrong moves they become hard to break habits. Start out with the right basic techniques with someone watching and correcting you and practice those.

There is plenty of good instructional video material available on the web but a lot of idiots masquerading as experts as well so choose wisely. I like Brian Havens' channel for good coverage of the basics. Stuart Batty, Cindy Drozda and Lyle Jamieson come to mind as well. There is a lot of good material on the AAW site as well which makes joining a good investment, plus you get access to American Woodturning.​ Have fun and be safe.

[Edward Weber]

Auto correct changed the given name, sorry I didn't catch that. It didn't try to change the surname anyway. I disagree that everyone HAS to learn in their own way and their own pace based on my experience. I got my first lathe based solely on a sale price ad in Fine Woodworking in 1985. Tools and some add looking expansion jaw chuck included. (4 jaw scroll chucks for woodworking hadn't been invented yet) I had so much trouble turning in my shop, I just parked the machine in the corner. Books were the only way to turn then. Years latter I went to a regional symposium in St. Louis. It was like an epiphany. Turning consumed my hobby world after that. Then videos came out and I watched all kinds of Beta video tapes. All that fine instruction changed me from a parked lathe to being an active turner who even had a solo gallery show. If you don't like my approach, that's fine. My style of typing or something I can't identify, seems to upset people. I'm just trying to share facts, I'm not trying to say I'm superior to anyone. But darn it, I thought sharing all my decades of experience would help others. But age and experience must not count for much these days since I get so much negativity to what I type. I can only assume that is why a very high percentage of professional woodturners don't help for free on forums. They must also get people who want to disagree with their comments and decided not to waste their time. I might as well join that group instead.
No one is trying to take anything away from you or disregard your approach. The one point you seem to miss ia that EVERYONE learns differently. Sharing your years of experience at turning is all great but the "my way or the highway" tone that is contained in some posts, tends to put people off. I should know, I've been an admin/moderator on a turning site for over a dozen years.
You benefited from a class where the instructor yelled accross the room. Others learn from different methods. For some it's one on one, some it's videos and others are self taught to the extent they can be. It can also be difficult to convey certain things through text alone and at times the original meaning can get lost or skewed.

It's one thing to try and save the OP from all the nonsense out there but you risk losing good content when you just dismiss everything you don't agree with.
Please keep in mind that there others that have good information to provide to the OP that may not align with your own.

[John Kananis]

Thanks everyone, I'm starting to get the hang of it actually. And thanks for the suggested watch list. I've seen most of the content from those sources many times over and I own the Ashley Harwood courses. I'm looking at back surgery maybe next month so as soon as I recover, I'll be much more hands on as I'll be able to keep longer hours in the shop.

[Edward Weber]

Thanks everyone, I'm starting to get the hang of it actually. And thanks for the suggested watch list. I've seen most of the content from those sources many times over and I own the Ashley Harwood courses. I'm looking at back surgery maybe next month so as soon as I recover, I'll be much more hands on as I'll be able to keep longer hours in the shop.
Hope all goes well

[John Kananis]

Thanks, Edward.


Hope all goes well

[Don Frank]

could you link that clip. I'm always interested in what Cindy says and does.