Professionals given no credit on forums..

[jack duren]

Says it all..

I was yelled at for two years in 1983-1985. Got hurt in 1985 on the table saw . Changed jobs and finally work myself up to a foreman..Did this for 37 years. Was on another forum and was told they do not recognize professionals . What does that mean?

I did kitchen cabinetry for 29 years. Boring. I’ve made door, boxes,drawers, counter tops, layout meet with customers, installed. Nothing left to learn. Spent 7 years high end furniture. Pulled my years in tyehe cabinet business plus’s tye years doing it and exploring furniture construction in my hobby shop over the year and had a successful career at that.

So we are not allowed to be professional?

[Tony Joyce]

Says it all..
Nothing left to learn.


After 50 years of all kinds of woodworking, when I get to the point that I think "Nothing left to learn." I fully expect to be six under.

[jack duren]

There might be something to learn, but it ain’t about the square box…

[Edward Weber]

There is always something to learn IMO, but to the OP's point, I think they don't distinguish between Occasional DIY, hobbyist and Professional. Everuone has the same amount of input, that sort of thing.

Professionals are often worth listening to, as long as their information is of value. Some just like to complain about hobbyist or grumble about "that's not how I'd do it" type of posts.
Whether what they say has any value to the reader is a judgement call to a certain extent.

[Mel Fulks]

You are free to call yourself a professional. You can’t get others to call you a professional. Fact is when a good workman claims to be
“a professional “ it often sours the client on hiring him. I’ve heard people comment about the title , they thought it strange ,or even funny. There are formal ways of addressing Kings , Presidents, Potentates ,but sometimes they are not used even after the lucky
peasants are told how to behave when they meet the great people.

[jack duren]

Something to learn is a broad spectrum, but there are many different categories of woodworking. I’m not a boat builder, so sure there’s always something in a different category. I could move from any cabinet shop to another and by the end of the day be productive and ready to work tomorrow. Commercial work is the same. Furniture, much more complicated.

[jack duren]

They call use because they don’t want to get jacked over by a hobby guy who doesn’t want to complete or work late. Doesn’t want to complete the work at all.


We are professionals regardless. The call, to the installation is professional.

it doesn’t sour the customer, it comes with expectations ..

when they hire you cand you have a reputation for quality , timely work. I call that a professional., When you call a guy and he’s not sure how much to charge you or when he will complete the job, that must be everybody else..

[jack duren]

I know as far as woodworking forums are concerned, “we are all created equal”. Some of us will just get more phone calls for paying jobs than others…lol

[Cameron Wood]

I've spent some time on a forum for pro contractors, but bailed as it is dominated by a clique of racist, misogynist, reactionary.

[glenn bradley]

There are forums primarily for professionals for this reason. A hobbyist’s forum is usually an open, equal value, sharing environment without a “value” hierarchy. If I make a suggestion and it is discounted I just move along, no harm, no foul.

[jack duren]

I've spent some time on a forum for pro contractors, but bailed as it is dominated by a clique of racist, misogynist, reactionary.

No what you mean…

[Cameron Wood]

No what you mean…


Did you mean to say "I know what you mean", or "I don't know what you mean", or something else?

[Lee Schierer]

Just because you do something for an extended period of time doesn't necessarily make you a professional even if you are paid to do it. We've all encountered people who make their living doing things, but we would never hire them to do that task for us.

For instance there is a Custom Home builder and had done it for many years and built the house he lived in. My daughter purchased that house and I've fixed and repaired a large number of things in that home where the owner/contractor did things that were absolutely wrong. He built a screened in deck w/vinyl panels for the winter months over the combustion exhaust vent for the boiler. At some point he purchased a pneumatic brad nailer for doing trim. I've found structure fastened with 1-1/2 brads, not nails or screws. I've also seen 1/4" wood panels attached to drywall with the same brads. A live 3 way electrical switch laying under insulation in the attic with no switch box. He finished the basement ran 12 gauge 2 conductor with ground wiring and never bothered to connect the ground wire to the receptacles. And had connected two circuits in a junction box from two different breakers together. You had to turn off two breakers to de-energize the circuit. Oh, and the ground wires were not connected in the junction box either. He had outdoor flood lights at the corners of the house that were wire nutted to the feed wire and simply attached to the vinyl soffit with drywall screws, no junction boxes. The main support beam for an addition on the house was toe nailed to the rim joist with fewer than 5 nails. This 3 ply 2 x 6 beam was over 28 feet long and was attached at each end and had one support in the middle. The island in the kitchen has an electrical outlet in it but isn't attached to the floor. The dishwasher fell out of the cabinet when it was opened because he didn't bother or didn't know you could buy a metal piece to span between cabinets under a granite counter top to attach the provided brackets to prevent tipping. And many other things.

[mike stenson]

Just because you do something for an extended period of time doesn't necessarily make you a professional even if you are paid to do it.

Yep. There are a whole bunch of people I've seen get paid to do things they sucked at.

[Ron Citerone]

Jack, I would let it go. I retired from a profession that takes more criticism than most. From friends, family, internet and society as a whole. Part of being a professional is to ignore the comments. Not worth the angst. I learned a long time ago to pretend I'm a duck and let the water run off my back!:)

[roger wiegand]

It's not just woodworking. As someone with over 40 years of pretty serious work in infectious disease the last several years have really reinforced what I already knew; that knowledge, experience, and qualifications count for diddlly with a large fraction of the population. Doesn't matter if you've got the data, logic and reason are not of much interest. Titles, be it "professional" or whatever count for even less (unless perhaps you count "TikTok influencer"). You need to find different ways to get your point across. Just having invested the time and effort to really master something isn't enough.

BTW, I'm not totally unsympathetic to this view-- I know plenty of morons and jerks who have MDs or PhDs.

[Warren Lake]

easy enough for me to see who is in the trade and appreciate the stuff they ad here. Clear Mel had time on machines and understood wood after reading him a few times. If you have something to sell then ill take that into consideration as some do.

Bruce Lee taught in LA and was chastised huge for teaching their skills to Manja cakes. A whole other dynamic to being a professional.

Perhaps this man felt it the most

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3utS1wY5e8

[Edward Weber]

It's not just woodworking. As someone with over 40 years of pretty serious work in infectious disease the last several years have really reinforced what I already knew; that knowledge, experience, and qualifications count for diddlly with a large fraction of the population. Doesn't matter if you've got the data, logic and reason are not of much interest. Titles, be it "professional" or whatever count for even less (unless perhaps you count "TikTok influencer"). You need to find different ways to get your point across. Just having invested the time and effort to really master something isn't enough.

BTW, I'm not totally unsympathetic to this view-- I know plenty of morons and jerks who have MDs or PhDs.

But I did my own research

Translation = I watched a bunch of YouTube videos and found a couple of articles on Google that support my position.

The definition of "professional" has lost much of it's original meaning in many contexts IMO

Whether someone works as a professional or acts professionally are two distinctly different things.

[jack duren]

Did you mean to say "I know what you mean", or "I don't know what you mean", or something else?


I was racing to get something done. Sorry.

I know what you mean…:)

[jack duren]

Jack, I would let it go. I retired from a profession that takes more criticism than most. From friends, family, internet and society as a whole. Part of being a professional is to ignore the comments. Not worth the angst. I learned a long time ago to pretend I'm a duck and let the water run off my back!:)

Probably right. You’re going to have professionals and hobbyist out there doing sloppy work. Who am I?;)

[Jerry Bruette]

Someone claiming to be a professional is like a company self proclaiming to be "world class". It's something that your customers should be claiming not you.

[Cameron Wood]

There's a clip on the radio where Carlos Santana says "I am a master storyteller...".

He's a great musician (and in fact I worked on his house a couple of times), but no master storyteller ever says that. Embarrassing...

A local contractor has signs saying "***** Professional builders". I always thought that was a little weird.


OTOH, a neighboring house at one point was a share rental, and a guy arrived from the South to my rather upscale area. He did massage, but there was a serious glut of massage therapists due to a local school that cranked them out.
He painted on the side of his (not new) car with a brush and house paint: "massage, (phone number)" it didn't quite have drips, but was squeezed at the end like the "plan ahead" sign.
He didn't stay very long....

[Mel Fulks]

When someone is going to meet the King of England it doesn’t happen until they are apprised of the required formality. Years ago I read
about someone who was going to meet the Queen ….greeting her with “ Hi Queen”.
MORE ! Recently saw a filthy beat-up truck with a big sign reading “ WE ARE PROFESSIONAL GUTTER CLEANERS”

[jack duren]

Someone claiming to be a professional is like a company self proclaiming to be "world class". It's something that your customers should be claiming not you.

Depends on how you look at it. When I’m hired by a company especially in the field with customers , I represent the company.Im meeting with builders, customers and working beside other professionals in the trade. I took care of my business on my end. I got a pretty good work history as a professional..

[jack duren]

When someone is going to meet the King of England it doesn’t happen until they are apprised of the required formality. Years ago I read
about someone who was going to meet the Queen ….greeting her with “ Hi Queen”.
MORE ! Recently saw a filthy beat-up truck with a big sign reading “ WE ARE PROFESSIONAL GUTTER CLEANERS”


They may do good work. What’s important is the work..whether you hire them or not is up to you..

[Bruce Wrenn]

Remember when Norm Abrams was referred to as a "Master Carpenter?" There is no such thing, just marketing hype. In my 50+ years in construction related fields, I usually found the quiet guy to bring the best skills to the table. There is a saying in the trucking industry, "Chrome doesn't get you home." Being flashy doesn't cut it when it come to actual work. One of my favorite BS terms is woodworkers who received a "commission," when what they meant is "I got hired to do a job."

[Jim Becker]

Experience is of "yuge" value to any community, including in this one. Now if you look at two people with an equal amount of experience, you're still going to find differences in methods and other things that ultimately lead to the same end result. Neither person is more of a "pro" than the other. Over time, new tools and techniques also come to be. They don't make designs, tools and techniques used over time any less valuable; they just add alternatives, again, to get the same end result. I'm not a "working pro", but I do try to help others from my own multi-decade of experiences in this thing called woodworking. And I'm always interested in how others do things, successfully or not, because I find it interesting. I will say that a lot of the techniques and tools I use now in 2024 are significantly different than what I employed in 1997 through the mid-2000s and my goal for 2024 is to do some things that I've not tackled previously, either via technique with the tools I have or possibly using new tools if the opportunity arises. Even the most experienced can always find a spark of interest in something new.

[jack duren]

When I worked in the shops or out in the field was done the according to the employers wants or needs. In the shop they have a wa6 they want things done. On installs they just want it to meet what is expected. They don’t care how , except in a timely manner…

[jack duren]

So I guess if you don’t allow professional as a term, then I guess highly skilled in my field. I did find when working at the furniture company , how many cabinet guys were unskilled at building furniture. I found they didn’t have patience and wanted slam together and go.

[Dave Fritz]

What's in a name, show me your work.

[jack duren]

What's in a name, show me your work.

I used my work to land me the furniture job..

[Warren Lake]

master is an abused word like Bespoke.

One old guy I knew was the best by far from early training to his history of what he ran for others then his own. When I said once you went from second class cabinetmaker who could not speak English to running the shop in 2 years cause you were so good? He said no cause they saw I could make money for them. He was guy with the grade three education that the lawyes brought the contracts to review and make changes words here and there that made all the difference. He never ever referred to himself or even said he was good. He did tell me he finished his apprenticeship one year early.

I have less of an issue with the word Master than Bespoke because bespoke is salesman crap if used here to elevate. Bottom line is the work and what it is.

Clothes and words dont make the man yet if you use the word Master to Refer to Larry Haun or Essential Craftsman, id say it fits both of them well.

[Patty Hann]

I first came across "bespoke" when I was a a UK website.
From my sporadic exposure to it there I determined that it simply meant "custom-made".
I.e., that is what the Brits say for custom work. I''d never seen the phrase "Custom-made" used by a Brit.
Not saying they don't, just that I've never come across it.

(It's like "skip-bin" for dumpster. They don't say dumpster, they don't even say "skip-bin"; they just call it a skip.)

[jack duren]

From what I’m reading, some of you understand why I’m discussing it and the others have no clue.

cabinet, commercial cabinets and furniture. A carpenter, roofer, sheet rocker are not in that trade.

[mike stenson]

I'd just let it go. Does it really matter?

In the end, what you produce is what creates the respect you garner.

[Zachary Hoyt]

My understanding is that etymologically a professional is someone who does something for money, and an amateur is somebody who does it for love. Professional is one of those words like premium or luthier that means anything or nothing in modern usage.

[mike stenson]

Doesn't a luthier make stringed instruments?

[jack duren]

Your either hired as a helper or hired for your skill.

[Warren Lake]

To me the word bespoke belongs where it lives. You use it here and it doesnt fit. I get it and why they use it. a top kitchen place here uses it and I do love the style of their work but its just fashioned around the British cabinet shops or same style a number of them do.

I know one shop comes to mind and work at a friends on a vanity that is just plain pathetic yet you read their site and they talk up a storm. My view of them is they only pollute the trade.

[jack duren]

We got a shop here in Odessa, Missouri called Craftsman Cabinetry Company. I talked to the guy about a part time job. He wanted me to go around and repair his cabinets that customers were complaining about. I went at the job site . It was awful. I told the guy the problem wasn’t the installation, but in the shop. He hired thae same guy that work at a shop I worked at that they fired him because he did crappy work and now works for Craftsman cabinetry. They need to change the name to Crappy Cabinet Company…

I wouldn’t work for the guy

[Zachary Hoyt]

Doesn't a luthier make stringed instruments?
Some would say what you said, and I think that is the original meaning. Some will say a luthier is only someone with vast experience who will charge you $100 an hour just to look at your violin and tell you it's not worth fixing, and some will say they are a luthier if they change strings at Guitar Center. I make instruments, but do not call myself a luthier.

[mike stenson]

Some would say what you said, and I think that is the original meaning. Some will say a luthier is only someone with vast experience who will charge you $100 an hour just to look at your violin and tell you it's not worth fixing, and some will say they are a luthier if they change strings at Guitar Center. I make instruments, but do not call myself a luthier.

So the problem is that people are illiterate ;)

Seriously, there's been a long process of the over-all reading level diminishing. It's noticeable reading newspapers (which cater to the mean levels) and more so online. Where people have no clue how to use what should be third grade words.

[jack duren]

I’m illiterate. I didn’t spend a lot of time online typing, I spent m y time in the shop running around the people who were…

[Alex Zeller]

Decades ago I was in a trade where you had traidemen and apprentences. It took years to move up. When we brought in someone new we always taught them that being a professional was more than doing good work. It started with how you look. If you dressed like a slob then you turn customers off. If every other word out of your mouth was a swear then, again, you turned people off. When driving a company truck to or from a job you drove like a professional. The condition of the truck also mattered. It didn't need to be a brand new top of the model line truck (lots of people don't want to feel like they are making your truck payments as well as paying you) but it shouldn't look like it's one step from retiring to the junk yard. All of this was before any actual work was done.

My point is what you think of as a professional may not be what someone else thinks. You may feel nothing matters but the quality of the work while others look at the whole package. Maybe today standards have dropped and professional doesn't mean what it once did. IDK. As for forums, what matters is how well you can pass on your knowledge. Did I tell you I've been to the moon 3 times in the last 10 years? There's always that guy who has done or seen it all. You could be the best cabinet maker out there yet unless others have seen your work you are no different than anyone else. When you answer questions and prove you do know what you are talking about then you will gain respect. Personally I haven't done a lot of woodworking in my life and my knowledge is far inferior to a large number of members here. I try to give my honest opinion but would never call myself a professional woodworker.

I'm lucky to have a neighbor who is (I've seen lots of his work and I haven't seen anyone do anything better). He's often being paid to travel all across the country (and occasionally to Europe) because of his skills. He's my fall back when I have a question or need a much larger tool than I own.

[Mark Hennebury]

The reason for brand names and corporate logos are for the general public to easily recognize and assume a level of quality, that has been promoted, which they are unable to judge themselves.
Everyone recognizes a Mercedes logo and have been conditioned to assume it's an expensive good quality car.

Without a visual clue they would not be able to judge themselves.
If the general public could judge things for themselves, you wouldn't need all of the marketing, people could pick up a product with no name, logo or recognizable design features and evaluate it. Companies spend a fortune advertising/brainwashing the public to want their brand, that appeals to the basic tribal instinct of humans, so we all pick our teams, Ford, Chevy, whatever.
That's why all the would-be wood workers use all of the recognizable terms when advertising, Tradition Craftsmanship, Master craftsman etc. blah blah blah.. It is to make the public believe that the woodworker does good work, because the public cannot judge it themselves.

Some woodworkers a famous, but they aren't famous because they are better than all the rest, the public think they are better because they are famous. The public cannot judge the work, so they attribute quality to popularity.

It doesn't matter how good you are, you simply will not get the respect for you level of expertise, who is going to recognize it, only another woodworker with equal or more expertise.

You will get a thousand time more respect by being well promoted. With promotion your name gets mentioned, that leads to more exposure, and more, and people assume that the more they hear about you the better you are, eventually you can join the Gods of woodworking James, George and Sam.

I England they have Royal Warrants which states that you goods are supplied to the royal family, there inferring that they are of the highest quality. You get a signed document to display at your premises. You have to apply and get approved, so there is a lot of prestige attached to owning one.

"Royal warrants of appointment have been issued since the 15th century to those who supply goods or services to a royal court (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_court) or certain royal personages.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_warrant_of_appointment_(United_Kingdom)#cite _note-1) The warrant enables the supplier to advertise the fact that they supply to the royal family, thereby lending prestige to the brand and/or supplier. In the United Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), grants are currently made by the two most senior members of the British royal family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_royal_family) to companies or tradespeople who supply goods and services to individuals in the family."

"A royal warrant sent a strong public signal that the holder supplied goods of a quality acceptable for use in the royal household, and by inference, inspired the confidence of the general public. At a time when product quality was a public issue, a royal warrant imbued suppliers with an independent sign of value."

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[Kevin Jenness]

A friend of mine who was a more than capable woodworker and builder once said, "Being a professional means knowing what you can get away with". He was not one to cut corners but he knew what his standards were and how to achieve them in his work efficiently.

In the same vein a New Hampshire boatbuilder named Bud Macintosh was quoted as saying, "Being an oldtimer in a miserable occupation like this means you've learned the balance between how good it should be and what they'll pay for, and how good it has to be before you lose your reputation."

Amateurs can shoot for the moon and take as much time as they need to get there. Most pros have to reach the moon on a budget, ignore the budget and hope to get paid anyway, or settle for sublunar orbit.

As far as being given credit for being a professional on a forum like this, I think you earn credit for the value of the work you show and advice you offer. After all, "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

[glenn bradley]

After all, "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

I'm pretty sure everyone on here knows I'm a dog :D:D:D

[Rod Sheridan]

So I guess if you don’t allow professional as a term, then I guess highly skilled in my field. I did find when working at the furniture company , how many cabinet guys were unskilled at building furniture. I found they didn’t have patience and wanted slam together and go.

Jack, I consider the term “professional” to mean someone not in the trades who has their ability to work in the profession controlled by a governing body (doctor, lawyer, engineer etc).

To the best of my knowledge, the end of the Guild system was the end of furniture or cabinet makers being a regulated trade.

Other trades do need a license to practice and that ability can be revoked by the licensing body.

I’m a technologist so no governing body, so not a trade or profession.

Regards, Rod

[jack duren]

Will just call it skilled..

[Doug Garson]

I've read every post on this thread, still confused, can someone give an example of how "Professionals are not given no credit on forums"?

[jack duren]

I've read every post on this thread, still confused, can someone give an example of how "Professionals are not given no credit on forums"?

Because there is no such thing according to the forum. So we will use the term “skilled”

[Doug Garson]

Because there is no such thing according to the forum. So we will use the term “skilled”
I wasn't aware of that, must have missed it in the Terms of Service. :cool:

[Larry Frank]

Yes, this thread is confusing. I think someone is not happy because he isn't recognized as a professional or skilled ??? I judge someone skills by their work and not their words.

[Mark Hennebury]

I believe that was mentioned in The Fountainhead , love the art, don't meet the artist.

[Mel Fulks]

Loved The Fountainhead , Couldn’t get through Atlas Shrugged, I was aging and needed time to get a job and find a wife .
And I couldn’t follow all the rules.

[Mark Hennebury]

Ha ha, I also loved the Fountainhead and never made it through Atlas Shrugged.

[Tom M King]

Same for me on those Ayn Rand books. What about us Jacklegs?

[Mel Fulks]

Same for me on those Ayn Rand books. What about us Jacklegs?

Funny stuff ! Remember the Classic Comic Books ? Wonder if they now have an Atlas Shrugged , hey! It’s a Classic, and
I could absorb it in less than a half hour !

[Patty Hann]

Read The Fountainhead twice (once in High school, 2nd time sometime in my 20s)
Read Atlas Shrugged twice (both on my own; i.e, not for any class even tho' the first time was during my HS senior year).
Read We the Living once (on my own also in my senior year of HS)
Tried to read A.S. recently ...ugh. Never again. No longer have any interest in Ayn Rand

[Mel Fulks]

I remember a good friend telling me about Atlas Shrugged, he was quite animated ,while describing what sounded like a war . He had
several copies that were autographed by Rand. I bought one and kept it for years , I think my Son might have it , We have at times
traded stuff.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

What's in a name, show me your work.
Would not matter. People used to be offended when George Wilson gave them advice.

It is just a feature of the internet.

[Larry Frank]

So many times, it is not the advice but how it is offered.

[Allan Dozier]

I'm also not sure what this thread is about exactly but I found it interesting that there are different ideas about what the word professional means. I always thought it meant you get paid for your services whether you were a lawyer or a prostitute. I particularly found Rod's interpretation deriving it from the root word Profession interesting and something to think about. With my original way of thinking the roofer who totally botched a roofing job for me was still a professional.

[jack duren]

I remember on Woodnet a guy called Dave Arbuckle. He would answer every question, Good answers. When he was asked to show projects, he disappeared…

There are two kinds of answers . The ones you read on the internet and the ones you learned while doing the project

[jack duren]

You can work in a cabinet shop and be called a cabinet maker, but there are only a few in the shop that know all phases of the business. Most of those guys do the same task all day. Many only looking beer money on the weekend

[jack duren]

It’s not really a problem here, but on some other forums youtr challenged all the time busy hobby woodworkers that don’t want to give you the credit deserved. I guess they want to go feel equal. We are in a way, but some of us are more “skilled”..

When someone across country wants a bowl, you make a bowl

[Edward Weber]

So many times, it is not the advice but how it is offered.

I totally agree and also confess, I've been guilty of the latter myself.

Often times It's easy to forget that others don't know what you know on a given subject or area of expertise. "Telling" them what to do as opposed to "offering" a suggestion on how they could improve can make a big difference.

[mike stenson]

So many times, it is not the advice but how it is offered.

Agreed. It's often true that those who provide less than gentle advice are less experienced than they claim (or, actually think) they are.

[Alan Lightstone]

Yep. There are a whole bunch of people I've seen get paid to do things they sucked at.
And some of them are called surgeons. Just sayin...

What I like most about this forum is that you get advice. Most good, some not so much, some just not for me, but usually a wide variety. You pick and choose. And the civility of the forum is what is most satisfying to me.

When I meet people socially I don't require them to call me "Doctor". Really don't want that at all. I'm a human just like they are (OK, a couple I wondered if they were human, but that gets into the stupidity issue. I digress.)

[Warren Lake]

mongo only pawn in game of life.

[Roger Feeley]

Someone wrote that if you are the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. That’s why I like the Creek so much. I’m at the left end of the bell curve.

[Rod Sheridan]

mongo only pawn in game of life.

Haha, good one Warren, well done.

Regards, Rod

[Doug Garson]

Someone wrote that if you are the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. That’s why I like the Creek so much. I’m at the left end of the bell curve.
And if you think you are the smartest person in the room you probably aren't. :cool:

[Warren Lake]

that was Alan and made me smile. Mongo got it.

[Bill Dufour]

On the net anyone can claim to be an expert about anything. They have to prove they know what they are writing about to get respect.
I can claim to be a brain surgeon and offer free advice on the net. Just hope no one listens to me.
Bill D

[jack duren]

Anybody can be an expert, Even a hobby woodworker. It’s not how well your educated or speak, but the projects you have built..

[Bill Howatt]

My old uncle used to say, "An expert is a guy telling you how to do something who is further than 10 miles from home!".

[Ron Citerone]

All of us are smarter than any one of us!

[Ron Citerone]

On the net anyone can claim to be an expert about anything. They have to prove they know what they are writing about to get respect.
I can claim to be a brain surgeon and offer free advice on the net. Just hope no one listens to me.
Bill D

When I read this thread I get a headache. Do I have a brain tumor? :eek:

[Mel Fulks]

When I read this thread I get a headache. Do I have a brain tumor? :eek:

They are fairly rare , I’m reassuring you and me at the same time …since my balance is getting bad and have an appointment
to see if my marbles are rolling around . Doing a lot more walking …while I can and It’s healthy. A win ,win.

[Ronald Blue]

All of us are smarter than any one of us!

Back in the 80's when employee involvement and quality circles were a thing that was a catch phrase.

[Patty Hann]

All of us are smarter than any one of us!

Yep... and let us not forget about the committee that was tasked with "designing a horse"...

.
.
.

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[Mel Fulks]

Yep... and let us not forget about the committee that was tasked with "designing a horse"...

I read how the chief engineer later developed mules which ,strangely ,had more horsepower. That came to my attention while I was
visiting the Ripley Believe It OR NOT Museum .

.

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[Bill Dufour]

keeping it wwing related.
Bill D.

[Warren Lake]

Bill some of us are older and need a larger font size :) In the past ive seen stuff like youve shown in some larger companies.



516421

[Patty Hann]

keeping it wwing related.
Bill D.

LOL Too funny

[Jason Hennry]

you've had a rich and varied career, showcasing both dedication and expertise. It's unfortunate that some forums may not recognize professionals, but your experience speaks for itself.

[Bill Dufour]

long term problem. The buyer does not realize how expensive it is to hire professionals who know what they are doing and complete the job on time and in budget.
Bill D.

[Bill Dufour]

Who knew? there is a site for cartoons about pyramid building!
Bill D.

https://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/p/pyramid_design.asp

[jack duren]

I did it again. Arguing with DIYers..

[Keegan Shields]

Jack,

You might be interested in this book: "The Death of Expertise: The Campaign against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters".

https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190469412

Its a great read. We are all guilty of this in various areas of our life.

"Tom Nichols' The Death of Expertise shows how this rejection of experts has occurred: the openness of the internet, the emergence of a customer satisfaction model in higher education, and the transformation of the news industry into a 24-hour entertainment machine, among other reasons. Paradoxically, the increasingly democratic dissemination of information, rather than producing an educated public, has instead created an army of ill-informed and angry citizens who denounce intellectual achievement."

[Edward Weber]

Thanks for the link

[Patty Hann]

Yes, thank you for that link.

[Cameron Wood]

I didn't read the book, but read a bunch of Amazon reviews, which tend to pull no punches, and must be taken with salt IME:

Representative of the critical ones:

The book is derived from the author's impression that "...within my living memory I've never seen anything like it.". It reads like an extended Facebook rant by your cranky uncle, and, as it turns out, the book is actually an expansion of a blog post the author wrote in 2013.

Perhaps I could give the book some leeway if Mr. Nichols was an expert in social science, or some topic that would give him authority in the "disregard for expertise", but he is a professor of National Security Affairs. Ironically, because he is not an expert in this area, I found myself disregarding his opinions.

The Death of Expertise is a perfect example of why people do disregard experts. The book FEELS like fact, but it is not. The author presents no evidence to back up the book's premise of an increase in disregard for expertise. You feel like you should trust his opinion, because it is in a book after all. People will cite the book, as if it were fact. And because so many people are saying it, it starts to feel like fact. But Mr. Nichols opinion is no more fact than your cranky uncle's last Facebook post.

[Edward Weber]

I didn't read the book, but read a bunch of Amazon reviews, which tend to pull no punches, and must be taken with salt IME:

Representative of the critical ones:

The book is derived from the author's impression that "...within my living memory I've never seen anything like it.". It reads like an extended Facebook rant by your cranky uncle, and, as it turns out, the book is actually an expansion of a blog post the author wrote in 2013.

Perhaps I could give the book some leeway if Mr. Nichols was an expert in social science, or some topic that would give him authority in the "disregard for expertise", but he is a professor of National Security Affairs. Ironically, because he is not an expert in this area, I found myself disregarding his opinions.

The Death of Expertise is a perfect example of why people do disregard experts. The book FEELS like fact, but it is not. The author presents no evidence to back up the book's premise of an increase in disregard for expertise. You feel like you should trust his opinion, because it is in a book after all. People will cite the book, as if it were fact. And because so many people are saying it, it starts to feel like fact. But Mr. Nichols opinion is no more fact than your cranky uncle's last Facebook post.

You didn't read the book but you feel that reading a review on amazon is representative of it's content, it's author and so on.
Thanks, but I'll decide for myself

[Cameron Wood]

You didn't read the book but you feel that reading a review on amazon is representative of it's content, it's author and so on.
Thanks, but I'll decide for myself

No, I feel that the quote is representative of the critical reviews on Amazon.

Definitely decide for yourself, & if you read the book, share your opinion.

Edit: I did spend at least half an hour reading dozens of reviews, many lengthy and detailed, quoting passages of the book and also citing the reviewers' own credentials. Overall at least 2/3 are positive.

[Keegan Shields]

No, I feel that the quote is representative of the critical reviews on Amazon.

Definitely decide for yourself, & if you read the book, share your opinion.

Edit: I did spend at least half an hour reading dozens of reviews, many lengthy and detailed, quoting passages of the book and also citing the reviewers' own credentials. Overall at least 2/3 are positive.


Thanks for highlighting this Cameron. Its a fair criticism to consider. I think if you read the book, you would find that the author leans on his experience as an expert in the national security realm to illustrate his points about the growing distrust in experts over the last 40 years.

The book is not a peer reviewed study with quantitative data to prove out the assertions. But the author is logical in his approach, and I found it thought provoking.

[Cameron Wood]

Thanks for highlighting this Cameron. Its a fair criticism to consider. I think if you read the book, you would find that the author leans on his experience as an expert in the national security realm to illustrate his points about the growing distrust in experts over the last 40 years.

The book is not a peer reviewed study with quantitative data to prove out the assertions. But the author is logical in his approach, and I found it thought provoking.



All right, I ordered a copy & will check it out.

[Keith Outten]

All of us are smarter than any one of us!

In my mind this is the most valuable statement I have ever seen here in 21 years.
Thanks Ron

[Larry Edgerton]

I'm a woodworker. Professional? Who cares?

I have been on this earth long enough to know that if I disappear tomorrow what little bit of skill I may possess is of no consequence, and the world will turn.

Interesting conversation just the same.........

[Tom M King]

My friends that work for, and used to work for NASA say their definition of an expert is someone who has done something before.

I have no claim to being an expert because most days I’m doing something that I have never done before.

[Kevin Jenness]

My friends that work for, and used to work for NASA say their definition of an expert is someone who has done something before.

I have no claim to being an expert because most days I’m doing something that I have never done before.

I think an expert is someone prepared to do something they never have done before with a high likelihood of success.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Being an expert is not the same thing as being a professional. As others have pointed out, "professional" has different meanings as well. It may mean I do it for a living (I am a professional shoe shiner) or it may mean you are a member of a licensed profession (I am a licensed medical doctor, even if I choose to do research instead of treating illness).

An expert is someone who by way of education, training, or experience has more information about the given topic than their audience.

You can acquire expertise in multiple ways. I college I took astronomy classes, I have used basic techniques to precisely determine direction from celestial observations, I have read a biography of Columbus that described the navigation techniques he used, and this weekend I attended a presentation where some medieval devices were discussed and demonstrated. So I know a lot more about medieval methods of celestial navigation than the average person.

I might be an expert from the point of view of a boy scout group, but that does not mean I could usefully address astronomers at a conference.

Even if I could usefully address the astronomers, it would not make me an expert on infectious disease. The term is both topic and forum dependent.

[John Lifer]

Being an expert is not the same thing as being a professional. As others have pointed out, "professional" has different meanings as well. It may mean I do it for a living (I am a professional shoe shiner) or it may mean you are a member of a licensed profession (I am a licensed medical doctor, even if I choose to do research instead of treating illness).

An expert is someone who by way of education, training, or experience has more information about the given topic than their audience.

You can acquire expertise in multiple ways. I college I took astronomy classes, I have used basic techniques to precisely determine direction from celestial observations, I have read a biography of Columbus that described the navigation techniques he used, and this weekend I attended a presentation where some medieval devices were discussed and demonstrated. So I know a lot more about medieval methods of celestial navigation than the average person.

I might be an expert from the point of view of a boy scout group, but that does not mean I could usefully address astronomers at a conference.

Even if I could usefully address the astronomers, it would not make me an expert on infectious disease. The term is both topic and forum dependent.

I'll disagree somewhat with your definition of expert. In my opinion, you have to have a DEMONSTRATED expertise, not just be able to have more information. At least in most fields, you should be able to explain and demonstrate you know and have the ability to perform that expertise, and it isn't just being able to talk about it.
But yes, anyone can call themselves a professional or an expert and we can determine if that is accurate or not by their performance.
And I've seen plenty of professionals in many fields who are not experts.

[Edward Weber]

Being an expert is not the same thing as being a professional. As others have pointed out, "professional" has different meanings as well. It may mean I do it for a living (I am a professional shoe shiner) or it may mean you are a member of a licensed profession (I am a licensed medical doctor, even if I choose to do research instead of treating illness).

An expert is someone who by way of education, training, or experience has more information about the given topic than their audience.

You can acquire expertise in multiple ways. I college I took astronomy classes, I have used basic techniques to precisely determine direction from celestial observations, I have read a biography of Columbus that described the navigation techniques he used, and this weekend I attended a presentation where some medieval devices were discussed and demonstrated. So I know a lot more about medieval methods of celestial navigation than the average person.

I might be an expert from the point of view of a boy scout group, but that does not mean I could usefully address astronomers at a conference.

Even if I could usefully address the astronomers, it would not make me an expert on infectious disease. The term is both topic and forum dependent.

A well made statement, which leads to the problem we're having today, as I see it.
You are self aware enough to know what your limitations are and what to do to learn more from "experts" in the field.
While you wouldn't feel comfortable in addressing the astronomers, there are many on YT that put themselves out there in order to show what they know, regardless of how much that is. These "content creators", present to many, as some sort of voice of authority and sadly are often afforded the same level of esteem as someone (professional/expert) who has spent their entire working career in that field.
This is the point where everyone becomes an expert. The lack of critical thinking on the viewers part, has people believing anything they see or hear, no matter the source and they take it as gospel.
While it can be a matter of perspective, where you are on the scale, there are those who have no business presenting to, or instructing others.
To the OP's point, I would say simply dismissing experts, professionals or however you categorize them is dangerous, not to mention foolish. Putting them all on the same level is no different.

[Mel Fulks]

I can accept something like “ I’ve been in this business a long time and have a good reputation, and would be glad to give you names of
people who like my work “. Much better than “ I’m the great Wizard of Oz , pay no attention to that man behind the curtain”.

[Mark Hennebury]

The problem as I see it, in terms of woodworking is there is only one yardstick and that is popularity. Advertising, promotion, bluff and bluster gets you well known, and popularity equals expertise, in the minds of those who do not possess the ability to judge for themselves.
In Karate for instance they are awarded different ranks after being judged by their peers.
In sword fighting, Miyamoto Mushashi stands tall as an expert, having the rare accomplishment of dying of old age.

[Doug Garson]

I think an expert is someone prepared to do something they never have done before with a high likelihood of success.
That's kinda the exact opposite of an expert. You can't be an expert in something you've never done before. The Oxford dictionary definition of an expert is " a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative (https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=cea3cab0966c3853&rlz=1C1RXQR_enCA995CA996&sxsrf=ACQVn09fi_Q4C-N3VGZ-V_4U1jcVJC3pzA:1710863598667&q=authoritative&si=AKbGX_o31t0LiMsEloM2rO5Vmah93qAuM-5UWj6Pk-LrdDz5Gpqa3XUyJoOzqkv8Vli3GAOFjsul8HFepr_yGTIzqVUr ZdM91mrOO-iqxUP2XLkJ0qfuBiM%3D&expnd=1) knowledge of or skill in a particular area." What you describe is more a "Jack of all trades" or a quick learner. An expert may have failed multiple times doing something they haven't done before ie they may have learned the hard way (by multiple failures) before becoming an expert.

[Doug Garson]

But yes, anyone can call themselves a professional
Try calling yourself a professional engineer or doctor and you may find yourself in court.

[mike stenson]

Try calling yourself a professional engineer or doctor and you may find yourself in court.

"woodworker" doesn't have a professional definition.

Also, claiming a profession you're not, on a forum, probably isn't going to get you into any legal issue.. unless, you start providing advice...

[Warren Lake]

if you have your papers they will say Cabinetmaker. At one point the Gov changed that to Industrial Woodworker then changed it back to cabinetmaker

Ive rebuilt two roofs and did expert level work on both. I had zero experience. We have forums and you tube and more important I had no time constraints for the most part so I was free to take time no pro could ever take. that made all the difference.

[Mel Fulks]

My understanding is that etymologically a professional is someone who does something for money, and an amateur is somebody who does it for love. Professional is one of those words like premium or luthier that means anything or nothing in modern usage.

there is a difference between the best researched dictionary and and graffiti . The big version of the Oxford English is the “judge”.
There are guys in prison for rape ‘cuz they thought the waitress who brought the beer smiled at him.

[Kevin Jenness]

That's kinda the exact opposite of an expert. You can't be an expert in something you've never done before. The Oxford dictionary definition of an expert is " a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative (https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=cea3cab0966c3853&rlz=1C1RXQR_enCA995CA996&sxsrf=ACQVn09fi_Q4C-N3VGZ-V_4U1jcVJC3pzA:1710863598667&q=authoritative&si=AKbGX_o31t0LiMsEloM2rO5Vmah93qAuM-5UWj6Pk-LrdDz5Gpqa3XUyJoOzqkv8Vli3GAOFjsul8HFepr_yGTIzqVUr ZdM91mrOO-iqxUP2XLkJ0qfuBiM%3D&expnd=1) knowledge of or skill in a particular area." What you describe is more a "Jack of all trades" or a quick learner. An expert may have failed multiple times doing something they haven't done before ie they may have learned the hard way (by multiple failures) before becoming an expert.

Well, maybe I should have said "within a particular field". I worked in a custom woodworking shop with a number of people I consider expert woodworkers and we often were called on to do very challenging projects we hadn't done before. The design studio depended on us to pull off stuff that they dreamed up without any limitations on cost or any idea of how it was to be done. We had enough collective experience and ingenuity to get difficult stuff done without a lot of drama.

[Doug Garson]

Well, maybe I should have said "within a particular field". I worked in a custom woodworking shop with a number of people I consider expert woodworkers and we often were called on to do very challenging projects we hadn't done before. The design studio depended on us to pull off stuff that they dreamed up without any limitations on cost or any idea of how it was to be done. We had enough collective experience and ingenuity to get difficult stuff done without a lot of drama.

OK, I get your point, not sure of the best word to describe the guys you are referring to, but by your description in the quote, expert woodworker is pretty good, they could also be described as a craftsman or as innovative, or great problem solvers also. I was thinking you meant someone who could do something in a new unrelated field.

[Jerry Thompson]

A professional is anyone from out of town with a video presentation. ;)

[Mark Hennebury]

The Professionals 2024

The modern Carpenter.

517260


The Modern furniture maker.

Here we have Jonny, unlike the hacks that built the stairs, Jonny is the real deal,
with 675,000 followers building a $10,000 table with his high precision CNC gantry router...
Apparently Jonny is not very good at woodwork, as he made a "small mistake" in placement of the the cutouts for the metal brackets, no problem he just cut them again.
Being the consummate professional our Jonny shows us he has the well developed skills to cover up his shit.

517261 517264 517265

[Edward Weber]

The Professionals 2024

The modern Carpenter.

517260


The Modern furniture maker.

Here we have Jonny, unlike the hacks that built the stairs, Jonny is the real deal,
with 675,000 followers building a $10,000 table with his high precision CNC gantry router...
Apparently Jonny is not very good at woodwork, as he made a "small mistake" in placement of the the cutouts for the metal brackets, no problem he just cut them again.
Being the consummate professional our Jonny shows us he has the well developed skills to cover up his shit.

517261 517264 517265

Great, now that's in my head.
You just can't un-see that

[Mark Hennebury]

It appears that the modern definition of Professional could be a person to whom " No mistake is too big to cover up"

[Edward Weber]

It appears that the modern definition of Professional could be a person to whom " No mistake is too big to cover up"

So long as you film it and call it a "public service" or a "learning opportunity"

And to Jonny (and his followers), you DID NOT build a $10,000 table, what you did was screw up.
It happens sometimes, just don't make the repair worse than the original issue.

I guess it would be too hard to build/buy a set of legs that fit the original placement.
OR
Make the repair look as if it was an intentional part of the build.

I have to go and bang my head against the wall now.

[Warren Lake]

there is a real trade called Cabinetmaking and its being polluted by content creators. Doesnt help the customers or people in the trade, just dilutes and pollutes the whole thing

[mike stenson]

...there oughta be a law....

[Cameron Wood]

You didn't read the book but you feel that reading a review on amazon is representative of it's content, it's author and so on.
Thanks, but I'll decide for myself


So I read the book- well, somewhat skimmed the second half.

After wading through the 29 pages of preface and introduction, I found the first third a scattershot restatement of his thesis. The middle is a somewhat engaging critique of higher education- his strong suit, as a professor.

The balance covers the internet, journalism, errors of experts, and conclusion.

The book as a whole sounds the alarm of a new and increasing issue largely related to the internet and "instant experts", but also clearly establishes that it is not new at all. Personally, my own resistance to experts stems largely from the '60s/Vietnam era- long before the internet.

In one passage that I found striking- kind of damning really, he discusses college students thinking that they are on an equal footing with their professors.

"When I first arrived at Dartmouth at the end of the1980s, I was told a story about a well-known (and, at the time, still living) member of the faculty that in a small way illustrates this problem and the challenge it presents to experts and educators. The renowned astro-physicist Robert Jastrow gave a lecture on President Ronald Reagan's plan to develop space-based missile defenses, which he strongly supported. An undergraduate challenged Jastrow during the question-and-answer period, and by all accounts Jastrow was patient but held to his belief that such a program was possible and necessary. The student, realizing that a scientist at a major university was not going to change his mind after a few minutes of arguing with a sophomore, finally shrugged and gave up. "Well," the student said, "your guess is as good as mine." Jastrow stopped the young man short. "No, no, no," he said emphatically, "My guesses are much, much better than yours.""

Since the book was published in 2017, the author should have been aware that detailed study and peer review concluded that the Strategic Defense Initiative was in fact not possible nor necessary and that it was a dangerous boondoggle with no chance of success. So the example shows that in this case, the student's guess was in fact better than the experts'. If I was the author, I would be embarrassed by this.

Overall, the book states a problem but offers few solutions, and largely is the author's (valid) complaint about the ill prepared and entitled state of college students, attending schools that cater to them. It did provide several words new to me, including one requiring the unabridged dictionary (solipsistic). Two and a half stars.

[Edward Weber]

So I read the book- well, somewhat skimmed the second half.

After wading through the 29 pages of preface and introduction, I found the first third a scattershot restatement of his thesis. The middle is a somewhat engaging critique of higher education- his strong suit, as a professor.

The balance covers the internet, journalism, errors of experts, and conclusion.

The book as a whole sounds the alarm of a new and increasing issue largely related to the internet and "instant experts", but also clearly establishes that it is not new at all. Personally, my own resistance to experts stems largely from the '60s/Vietnam era- long before the internet.

In one passage that I found striking- kind of damning really, he discusses college students thinking that they are on an equal footing with their professors.

"When I first arrived at Dartmouth at the end of the1980s, I was told a story about a well-known (and, at the time, still living) member of the faculty that in a small way illustrates this problem and the challenge it presents to experts and educators. The renowned astro-physicist Robert Jastrow gave a lecture on President Ronald Reagan's plan to develop space-based missile defenses, which he strongly supported. An undergraduate challenged Jastrow during the question-and-answer period, and by all accounts Jastrow was patient but held to his belief that such a program was possible and necessary. The student, realizing that a scientist at a major university was not going to change his mind after a few minutes of arguing with a sophomore, finally shrugged and gave up. "Well," the student said, "your guess is as good as mine." Jastrow stopped the young man short. "No, no, no," he said emphatically, "My guesses are much, much better than yours.""

Since the book was published in 2017, the author should have been aware that detailed study and peer review concluded that the Strategic Defense Initiative was in fact not possible nor necessary and that it was a dangerous boondoggle with no chance of success. So the example shows that in this case, the student's guess was in fact better than the experts'. If I was the author, I would be embarrassed by this.

Overall, the book states a problem but offers few solutions, and largely is the author's (valid) complaint about the ill prepared and entitled state of college students, attending schools that cater to them. It did provide several words new to me, including one requiring the unabridged dictionary (solipsistic). Two and a half stars.

While the basic premise isn't new, how it's received is. What used to takes months, now takes minutes or even seconds. People constantly tweeting and posting fact free videos, even the best minds can get silenced, misrepresented or ignored in one news cycle. The damage that's done in seconds can takes a long time to undo.


The point, is that a professor with multiple degrees in physics, who worked at NASA and GISS to name a couple, might have a better guess, due to his years of study and work experience in the field, than a sophomore student does.

This is the "I know as much as the experts" nonsense that is prevalent today.

You say STI was a boondoggle, but we now have everything that was outlined in the original vision of STI. I would say it was a vision ahead of it's time, we could do it now. Whether or not to do it, comes down to politics, the cold war is over, the need has passed.

We will agree to disagree

[Carl Beckett]

You are self aware enough to know what your limitations are and what to do to learn more from "experts" in the field.


I have had the privilege of interacting with some true experts. Professionals. And insanely smart people (Nobel prize winning level). The level of knowledge seems to be inversely proportional to what they purport to understand.

Meaning the smarter or more knowledgeable they are, the more they highlight just how little they know. Ultimately all they talk about is just how little understanding there is on complex/difficult subjects. And they include their own limited understanding in that.

Which word is used (expert vs professional vs guru vs zen master... doesnt really matter imo). One of my fav quotes:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ― Zhuangzi

[Edward Weber]

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ― Zhuangzi



I hadn't heard that one before, very good

[Jim Becker]

I have had the privilege of interacting with some true experts. Professionals. And insanely smart people (Nobel prize winning level). The level of knowledge seems to be inversely proportional to what they purport to understand.

Meaning the smarter or more knowledgeable they are, the more they highlight just how little they know. Ultimately all they talk about is just how little understanding there is on complex/difficult subjects. And they include their own limited understanding in that.

Which word is used (expert vs professional vs guru vs zen master... doesnt really matter imo). One of my fav quotes:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ― Zhuangzi



One of Professor Dr. SWMBO's "partners in crime" back when she was involved in research relative to Hep-B and Liver Cancer was indeed an actual Nobel Prize winner. What you described was absolutely him in every way. I only met him once, but even that single interaction was so enjoyable.

I agree with Edward about the quote. Outstanding perspective.

[Bill Howatt]

That's because they are smart enough to know what they don't know.

[Edward Weber]

That's because they are smart enough to know what they don't know.
The opposite of Dunning-Kruger

[mike stenson]

The opposite of Dunning-Kruger

no, it's just part of the curve.

[Edward Weber]

no, it's just part of the curve.
The opposite end

[mike stenson]

The opposite end

Knowing enough that you're aware of what you might not know.. is in the middle of the curve. Confidence, amongst actual experts, is again high.

[Mark Hennebury]

I remember a conversation that I had with Chris Hall where we were discussing a cabinet that he had made and documented on his blog, he mentioned how a very visible part of the cabinet was a very complex puzzle for those not familiar with the construction, and how he purposely never explained how it was done. No one questioned it, which he found curious. I told him that it is lonely at the top.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

A little learning is a dang'rous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

Fir'd at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of arts,
While from the bounded level of our mind,
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But more advanc'd, behold with strange surprise
New, distant scenes of endless science rise!

So pleas'd at first, the tow'ring Alps we try,
Mount o'er the vales, and seem to tread the sky;
Th' eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last;
But those attain'd, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthen'd way,
Th' increasing prospect tires our wand'ring eyes,
Hills peep o'er hills, and Alps on Alps arise!

[Keegan Shields]

What can get experts into trouble is when they believe themselves to be experts outside of their expert area.

Here is a great example (and cautionary tale) from the book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

Brilliant, Nobel prize winning chemist, also a quack promoter of Vitamin C.

[Edward Weber]

I remember a conversation that I had with Chris Hall where we were discussing a cabinet that he had made and documented on his blog, he mentioned how a very visible part of the cabinet was a very complex puzzle for those not familiar with the construction, and how he purposely never explained how it was done. No one questioned it, which he found curious. I told him that it is lonely at the top.

They we're probably afraid of sounding stupid asking the question.
There is no shame in not knowing something, if you don't ask, you don't learn

[Alan Lightstone]

I was fortunate enough to work with a number of Nobel laureates during my brief academic career. I found all of them humble, and approachable.

My favorite encounter was with a Nobel Laureate in Biology (I didn't know that at the time), who I met early in my freshman year at MIT in a Biology Dept mixer. I started talking to this gentleman, and asked him about his research. He went into some detail about reverse transcriptase (an enzyme that converts RNA into DNA). After listening intently, and trying to understand it, I asked him "How has your research panned out?" He looked at me, kind of quizzically, and said that, "The people in Stockholm seemed to like it." Even dumb freshman that I was, I realized that he had won the Nobel Prize in Medicine. OMG!! As I tried to slink away feeling like an idiot, he was amused enough by our conversation that he offered to be my biology department advisor, which I readily took him up on. I found every interaction with him to be great. Warm, entertaining, and truly concerned with my well-being, education, and future.

I have a number of similar stories with Nobel laureates that I embarrassed myself in front of (strangely, this turned out to be a strange talent of mine).

Every one of them, I would suggest, would be considered a true World's expert. And these experts were all a pleasure to speak with. And I'm pretty sure that it didn't hurt me to have letters of recommendation on my behalf written by Nobel laureates. For this I am eternally grateful.

[Mark Hennebury]

No shame in not knowing.
My point is the higher that you climb, the more that you know in your given profession, the less people there are that understand what you understand, therefore the less people that you can have a "conversation" with. Sure you can talk to anyone always, you can talk to people who run three miles, or five miles, or ten, but if you run a marathon, the only people that can understand running a marathon are people who have run a marathon.

When you achieve something that is exceptional, that is the highpoint of your 25 year career, and you are blown away at what you have accomplished, and post it online for the world to see...............and nobody notices......welcome to woodworking.

If you are in sports world, you get a $100,000,000 dollar contract. Science you get the Nobel prize. Life.


They we're probably afraid of sounding stupid asking the question.
There is no shame in not knowing something, if you don't ask, you don't learn

[Norman Pirollo]

No shame in not knowing.
My point is the higher that you climb, the more that you know in your given profession, the less people there are that understand what you understand, therefore the less people that you can have a "conversation" with. Sure you can talk to anyone always, you can talk to people who run three miles, or five miles, or ten, but if you run a marathon, the only people that can understand running a marathon are people who have run a marathon.

When you achieve something that is exceptional, that is the highpoint of your 25 year career, and you are blown away at what you have accomplished, and post it online for the world to see...............and nobody notices......welcome to woodworking.

If you are in sports world, you get a $100,000,000 dollar contract. Science you get the Nobel prize. Life.


Well said and very true!

[Edward Weber]

No shame in not knowing.
My point is the higher that you climb, the more that you know in your given profession, the less people there are that understand what you understand, therefore the less people that you can have a "conversation" with. Sure you can talk to anyone always, you can talk to people who run three miles, or five miles, or ten, but if you run a marathon, the only people that can understand running a marathon are people who have run a marathon.

When you achieve something that is exceptional, that is the highpoint of your 25 year career, and you are blown away at what you have accomplished, and post it online for the world to see...............and nobody notices......welcome to woodworking.

If you are in sports world, you get a $100,000,000 dollar contract. Science you get the Nobel prize. Life.

Okay, different meaning than I was thinking but you're correct of course.
This phenomenon is becoming more and more common these days. No longer do you need to have 25 years or so in your field and be at dizzying heights of your profession for people to not understand you. It seems to me that the bar is much lower than that these days.

With the internet making everyone an instant expert on everything, many people can't differentiate between the inert knowledge often presented to them and actual depth of knowledge select few have. This goes back to the OP's point, professionals given no credit.
Pursuing further knowledge is often looked at negatively, or just disregarded" why do I need to know that, the next time I need info, I'll just google it, then I'll be an expert/professional too." :rolleyes:
This is the destruction of critical thinking.

JMHO

[Don Corbeil]

With the internet offering instant access to information, there's a misconception that mere surface-level understanding equates to true expertise. This undermines the years of dedication and hard work professionals put into mastering their craft. Critical thinking is indeed eroded when people opt for quick fixes rather than engaging in deep learning and understanding. As professionals, it's crucial to persevere in our pursuit of knowledge and expertise, despite the prevailing trends. Educating others about the value of specialized knowledge and critical thinking is key to combating this destructive mindset.

[Keegan Shields]

knowledge and experience are different.

[Doug Garson]

knowledge and experience are different.
As are intelligence and ignorance.

[jack duren]

We bought a dual Woodwmaster sander at a commercial shop one time. We had nothing but trouble and sold it. I brought this up during a conversation on Woodworkingtalk. One member and one moderator both talked about how great they were. Neither bought their sander and had never owned one, but talked about how great their website was. Anybody can have a great website, but if you have never owned tye tool, you haven’t the information to promote the tool.

tired of fighting with people who knew very little other than what they read , led me to stop going over there..

[Edward Weber]

We bought a dual Woodwmaster sander at a commercial shop one time. We had nothing but trouble and sold it. I brought this up during a conversation on Woodworkingtalk. One member and one moderator both talked about how great they were. Neither bought their sander and had never owned one, but talked about how great their website was. Anybody can have a great website, but if you have never owned tye tool, you haven’t the information to promote the tool.

tired of fighting with people who knew very little other than what they read , led me to stop going over there..

This is like when you're shopping and ask the salesperson about a product and they start reading the box to you.

[jack duren]

Exactly…….

[Warren Lake]

I bought a shaper and a tennon machine from a top kitchen place years back. He had a table saw from one brand. I asked he said he would not sell it to me, I said why, He said it was huge grief and the only good thing about that company was the advertising. Kind of him to save me.

No fan of drum sanders cause ive had better.

Old guy had poor english and wrote the whole program for cabinet school. When he worked at this largest companies the lawyers came and asked him to go over all the contracts and he told them what to change. They had big deal education, he had a grade three education or part of it as the war ended school.

He could not get a job now as teacher as no degrees. They all can get a job with their degrees and dont have any real world experience just nanny state repetition. We were taught way more than what we were taught cause the teachers made a living in the trade for a lifetime before they taught.

Salesman are the worst., In the past many were great as they had tons of experience now new guys with a nice shirt reading from a play book. last time I called 3M I got a useless human copy and paste compared to the past guy that did a lifetime there and shared lots with me and taught me.

[Mark Hennebury]

Many years ago my wife asked me why I insist on going to the store to look for stuff, rather than just phoning and asking if they had the product in stock.
I simply don't trust the people to know or care enough to find out.

I remember many decades ago going into department store and heading to the vacuum cleaner department and asking the gentleman that worked there if they had any vacuum cleaners with a power head, to which he replied no. Looking behind him, I saw vacuum cleaners with power heads, which I pointed out to him, his reply was that this wasn't his department he was just filling in for someone.

So I don't phone, I go to the store and check the shelves myself, I sometimes go out back and check the warehouse too, as if the shelf is empty, it doesn't mean they don't have any, sometimes they are just too lazy to refill it, and it isn't any point asking if they have any out the back in the warehouse.

[Warren Lake]

yes just happened to me with a store where they said we dont have that then I found it

Last planer where is the knife grinder? "we dont have it" asked a second time another day same im sure we dont have it. Knife grinder was sitting in the same room as the planer. What is scarey is that human was teaching woodworking high school level. The planer had broken parts nothing said in the write up, claimed to be used in service to end of school year, asked for the reports and no accident reports., Planer failed inspection twice or three times past got the reports and said failed cause a door was off. Its like failing an etest cause your car door is open., CLose the door moron. Inspection company that inspected it knew nothing abouit woodworking machinery. Okay then what is the point when they said the machine was fine and okay for use, it was not. I called the ministry of labour and they said they would investigate. Not the right time for me but will go back to them when I have time.

Ive had four high school woodworking experiences and I give them all a fail. Colleges are good and have it together compared.

We have to be colombo in life, stop digest go over ask more and and. I just got in a bit of a mouth off with a high school principle. The machine they were selling had the amps listed wrong, no HP and they machine was listed by the plate on the knife grinder and not the machine model serial etc. These people are being paid to teach us? teach us what if you dont even understand what is in front of you. At one point I called schools to question and had a teacher tell me he had seen a person teaching woodworking that was teaching computers a week before that. That said the teachers we had in 81 were amazing people.

We need a large sense of humour to put up with a fair bit of stuff that is not funny.

[Edward Weber]

Salesman are the worst., In the past many were great as they had tons of experience now new guys with a nice shirt reading from a play book. last time I called 3M I got a useless human copy and paste compared to the past guy that did a lifetime there and shared lots with me and taught me.

This is the same way I feel about "parts guys"
When I used to order parts as part of my job, there were many people at parts houses to deal with from the ones who,"if it's not on the screen I can't help you" to the one guy who actually worked on the things I needed parts for.
I could call him up and he knew exactly what I was asking for, more than I did in many cases. He would actually let me know when he went on vacation so I could order things ahead of time and not have to go elsewhere and deal with the "book only" guys.