Bandsaw guide kits for a scm formula 600p

[Simon Dupay]

Looking for an upgrade kit over the Eur. Old style guides for the band saw at work. We keep having problems with the Euro style guides. Tried the Laguna upgrade guides, but they wouldn't fit.
And I'm just wondering if anybody else has any idea of what kit would work with this bandsaw?

[Simon Dupay]

515903515903 bandsaw in question515904

[Tom Trees]

I can't see your pics as I'm behind the paywall,
but could suggest if your wanting to run a narrow blade, then Sam's post on the SCM/Minimax forum might be of interest.

https://groups.io/g/MinimaxOwnersGroup/topic/mm_20/103486869?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,20,103486869,previd%3D17066555319849 96386,nextid%3D1703248333628829229&previd=1706655531984996386&nextid=1703248333628829229

and if you're not happy with that, then I'd suspect you've got "insufficient flywheel seal convexity", i.e the apex of the camber might be worn.
On the Centauro tires, that apex not being on centre, but 1mm closer to the front of the wheel, and I would have no reason to think otherwise with the Novellra made Formula,
so worth noting if tracking such a narrow blade on centre and wiping out that all important profile.

Just a wee lick of the tires, is likely all is needed, if so...
provided the saw will cut right without needing anything but a single thrust guide, that's only making contact when cutting tall stuff, that is.

Perhaps though, you may have pictured something more challenging to the machines capabilities,
but not using a better blade for the job?
As they say a picture tells a thousand words! ???

All the best
Tom

[Jim Becker]

You may find that the original Euro guide just need thorough cleaning or maybe new bearings. They can get really gunked up over time.

[Simon Dupay]

I've cleaned and lubed them several times but within a day they get gunked up and there's a groove in the thrust bearing. We've gone through about 4 or 5 sets of them. And at 50 bucks a pop, they're not cheap.

[Tom Trees]

You sure make it sound like there's a lack of beam tension issue going on.

[Simon Dupay]

it's used for resawing 99% of the time

[Tom Trees]

Safe wildcard bet you likely have been using carbide blades, and the accompanying hungry tooth count,
on a machine with a motor to match the throat capacity if going by John's rule of thumb.
Those three things...the fourth, not present yet (ceramic thrust guides, that is)
all seem to disguise what might well be going on.
I suggest testing with a regular 3TPI blade, if effort to see how thick of a non resinous species you can get cut,
without the thrust guides making any/much contact with the blade.

That would say a lot about your tire profile if so,
as would an old box of damaged, but still yet sharp, blades.
That's my 2 cents worth on the matter.

Just for an interesting sidenote, just to muddy the waters here...and regarding my above thoughts in such.
Resinous timbers, and possibility of flat tires, on such a machine...
I'd not be surprised to read tales of..."jeez, it was running better when the tires were filthy!"


All the best
Tom

[Dave Sabo]

I agree.

If you're going through guides at that rate - your saw is definitely not set up correctly.

Think of it like a constantly tripping circuit breaker ............ it's tripping is telling you something. Simply replacing with a larger breaker to stop the tripping isn't the answer.

Well, the proper on anyway.

[Stephen Bandirola]

I agree with Dave, how wide is your blade, are you tensioning enough, are you applying a lot of force pushing the wood thru the cut?

[Stephen Bandirola]

The thrust bearing should be spinning freely. There shouldn't be any way to wear a groove in it.

[Simon Dupay]

it's a Lenox Woodmaster 1" it's setup correctly, the saw doesn't have very good dust collection and the oillite gets all gummed up and they stop moving freely. I will add the lower wheel does not track the same as the upper wheel. I've just never been a fan of euro style guides.

[Simon Dupay]

We're just trying to move away from the eruo style guides

[Geoff Crimmins]

Space Age Ceramics make ceramic guides that can be installed in place of the bearings on your Euro guides. It makes more sense once you see photos of the product. E-mail them if you don't find your saw listed. They are very responsive and helpful. SpaceAge Ceramics | Band Saw Accessories, Thrust Bearings, Band Saw Guides, Band Saw Blade Guide (https://www.spaceageceramics.com/) If those don't look like they will work, you could also consider the Carter Micro-Precision guides. Micro-Precision Model 20 - Bandsaw Guides & Mounts | Carter Products (https://carterproducts.com/band-saw-products/band-saw-guides/micro-precision-model-20) I would not use the Carter ball bearing guides since they will likely end up freezing up, just like your Euro guides.

[Tom Trees]

Still sounds like your Woodmaster CT blade isn't providing the same results as John.
(I lost my post), but was mentioning if looking for ceramic to fit, then ACM's BS440 (specifically the education model)
offers those types, but not on the others.

I guess the Laguna guides you tried had some sorta mounting arrangement as David's Laguna 24x17 saw?
516274

I don't need to look for guides thankfully, and my welded on faces will do the job, coz there's little contact now, compared to before.
I think you might be able make out the deep slot on this APA guide.
516275
Not forgetting the associated tire wear to match


516276

Other guides like whats on Scott and Sargeant's website might be worth looking at, as well as whoever fitted art deco style ones to only one of their Centauro saws
(Van Huskey perhaps?)

Other brands I'm aware of being Hema guides, much the same as the Panhans or cheaper option,
and I suppose Carter do some over there too.

Not being sure of how wet things might be already, but there might be another factor here,
and that might be worth looking into seeing Borson precision resaw services, he uses/used a small Italian saw with coolant,
Not that I'd suggest such a thing, looks a good way to get a lethal rap to me.

All the best
Tom

[Simon Dupay]

516867 This is the problem we've been having

[Richard Coers]

516867 This is the problem we've been having

Just to support you and let others see it's not just you Simon. You have to keep an oil can around just like an old steam locomotive. If you don't the bearing drags and even if you don't wear a groove, you wear off the face! Sorry, pic rotated somehow. And I get the idea they expect us to replace them a lot since the part number is emblazoned on the face!
516869

[Tom Trees]

It'd be interesting to know what you guys are comparing the results of
guessing you also have the Woodmaster CT blade aswell Richard...

I linked Kris DeVo's here before, regarding performance w/carbide blade, here's the video, (timestamped to the cutting)
https://youtu.be/uXLUxH0-EOU?si=jJE3ue-5zd0hUQ50&t=2940

And linked some videos from Mário Martins resawing channel also, just using regular non CT blades, and a 700mm wheeled Sicar machine.
aswell as another video with a non new 3TPI blade w/powerfeeder, so a real telling test IMO.
https://youtu.be/tvhPbNtJISM?si=Y7uR-RBqVnIj5X_q&t=122

Just a few I thought impressive, (I was having beam tension issues, with flat tires at the time)
and seem to remember John giving off strong unremarkable vibes, stating something along the lines of things looking a bit slow to him!

I could link a SCM promo with Sam Blasco, resawing poplar, but I couldn't say I'm getting a feel of the cutting compared,
not having sawn poplar before.
Could link some more videos of the CT, but reckon not all too remarkable for John's taste.
Perhaps you guys could point me to where you've based your comparisons, other saws perhaps?

Just noting plenty of old Italian saws alike still have the old thrust guides remaining,
which IMO says a lot about the Euro style guides.
516894

Tom

[Richard Coers]

Sure Tom, lots of them left. But they have to oil the thrust bearing just as often as anyone else. These sleeve bearings and sawdust just don't play well together. I'm not resawing and that is not a Woodmaster CT. It's some roll of 3/9" bandsaw blade stock I bought on eBay. I make my own blades.

[Tom Trees]

Not to say these don't need a little oil, as evidently the APA guide which is a standard size IIRC,
is often used on Italian saws like mine, and a regular Euro guide system below, with the GL456 thrust.
516901
I only found out recently that the side rollers can be oiled like so, if you can make out removal of the plastic plug.
516903

Though I still am left thinking that the lack of a little oil is the reasoning for the need to buy another set of thrust guides.
I've never oiled mine, using a 3TPI blade for ripping, as I didn't want the blade to be making contact with the guides in the first place.
(I've welded a face onto mine, and the bronze bushing is bit sloppy now)
Point being, I had experienced and seen results of the same, i.e sufficient beam tension in order not to need them,
and spent a lot of time trying to figure out why, when my machine became intolerable,
the whole flat tire thing, alignment thing, repairs, in whatever order you prefer, was a rather deep rabbit hole,
whilst other things which one could speculate, sufficient blade tension in PSI , not important to me, having actually noted good results before,
using many regular blades, though not carbide where it likely changes things...
and during that time, to wear such guides out so quickly, the tire profile is what I'm guessing,
and the carbide blade, which is likely tensioned accordingly, is hiding things.

Now, to find a video showing of someone using a carbide blade, not even on the same machine,
but to see the setup, and how much force, whatever that be, i.e species, depth of cut, power feeder/speed, and whatnot, machine HP, wheel size, blade tension,
whilst getting an idea of how much deflection that is, in order to rub of the thrust guides (for whatever length of time)
is quite a challenge.
Mário Martins videos for instance, gives a clear picture of a saw running nicely, not much rubbing going on there...
pity as of yet he hasn't used carbide blades, as it would be of interest to see too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiphC3qWFvw

You might instead decide to have read John TenEyck's posts, and perhaps have read others here also, broad kind of statements with this blade,
like it cuts whatever as fast as I can feed the timber through.
I think John might well have posted some on that regarding, how much force it takes to make that thrust roller spin, with the Woodmaster CT
Hopefully he or others could mention something, as there's a few folks here using carbide blades have mentioned giving their saw lots of use,
and of those with Laguna's LT series machines featuring the same real rubber tires, I've not got the impression that they had such bother with their thrust guides,
though how long those have had ceramic guides as standard, that might take quite a bit of digging in the archives to find.
Edit: Jeez I forgot to note Felder's old FB line, Bridgewood, and Griggio, all having the same vulcanized rubber, and likely the same style guides,
from the same factory as the SCM, in Novellara,
so those would likely be easier found, should they stumble across such, perhaps one thread somewhere titled the reluctant bandsaw springs to mind.

I've not came across much on that really, and I've scoured the net on all things ACM.
Just saying, if one is getting the impression these thrust guides are as consumable as one might be making them out to be....
then that must only apply to carbide blades at maximum resaw height...
as you don't really come across new guides on old Italian saws on ebayUK and the likes,
much like you don't see carbide used in UK.

This from what I can make out is the only rational reasoning for the change,
and beyond my pay packet,
so I'll leave the carbide blade users to it. :)

All the best
Tom

[Jay Houghton]

I've tried a lot of different guides on my Meber 600 which would be a similar machine. I'm super happy with the Carter guides now. Not the roller bearing ones, these are friction guides. If you look at the side blade guides they look like plows and that's exactly what they do. You can get them out of carbide and set them extremely close to the blade then are self cleaning. I'm never going back to a guide that incorporates a bearing, other than the thrust bearing. That blade is a 1" Lenox TriMaster and I tension it to 22,000 psi using a tension meter.
Jay

[Simon Dupay]

I've tried a lot of different guides on my Meber 600 which would be a similar machine. I'm super happy with the Carter guides now. Not the roller bearing ones, these are friction guides. If you look at the side blade guides they look like plows and that's exactly what they do. You can get them out of carbide and set them extremely close to the blade then are self cleaning. I'm never going back to a guide that incorporates a bearing, other than the thrust bearing. That blade is a 1" Lenox TriMaster and I tension it to 22,000 psi using a tension meter.
Jay
This is the guild I've been looking at I just want to make sure which kit fits a SCM Centauro made 600p bandsaw I am hoping Erik Loza would chime in (I do have experience with those carter guides on two Northfield bandsaws back in my Vo tech days at MCTC in Minneapolis)

[Jay Houghton]

I found fitting the right guide pretty simple. The guide itself is not the issue, it's the mount that goes from the post to the guide. It all depends on the offset of the post to the blade. But the guides have a lot of left-right adjustment (as you face the blade). also on the Carter site you can buy kits that might already be configured for your saw. They also have a service where you can plug in your saw and they'll quote the parts for you. (I realize you may know this already but I post for the benefit of others that may not be familiar)

[Tom Trees]

This paywall piccy malarkey business surely has turned out to be a guessing game of sorts!.:p
had another try to find Van Huskey's? posts on his retrofit to one of his Centauro's, to no avail.
I'm still left thinking that it's an ACM saw, as I've not come across the formula name on the Centauro machines.
i.e Centauro
516982
and the ACM
516984
The tires are vulcanized on the SCM saw from Novellara, whilst the Centauro has quick change types with a groove.
Not to say they couldn't be dressed the same as the vulcanized real rubber, well at least once or twice I suppose, but more likely and seemingly so,
a genuine replacement fitted to those machines, if google has anything to say about it.

All the best
Tom

[Chris Parks]

Oiling bearings is easy and can be done without removing the shields or the bearings from the machine. Drill a very small hole in the shield just big enough to fit the tip of a precision oiler in it and the oil is added at any time you feel the need. I doubt if any debris will get in a hole that size and give the sield a wipe now and then to keep it clean as fine debris and dust will get past the shilds on some bearings.

[Simon Dupay]

This paywall piccy malarkey business surely has turned out to be a guessing game of sorts!.:p
had another try to find Van Huskey's? posts on his retrofit to one of his Centauro's, to no avail.
I'm still left thinking that it's an ACM saw, as I've not come across the formula name on the Centauro machines.
i.e Centauro
516982
and the ACM
516984
The tires are vulcanized on the SCM saw from Novellara, whilst the Centauro has quick change types with a groove.
Not to say they couldn't be dressed the same as the vulcanized real rubber, well at least once or twice I suppose, but more likely and seemingly so,
a genuine replacement fitted to those machines, if google has anything to say about it.

All the best
Tom
It's definenty a Centauro saw not an AMC it has a Centauro lable on the back (BTW the paywall is only $6 a year about $.50 a month well worth it IMHO) also I've oiled the crap out of them and re faced them with in a day they have a groove in them

[Tom Trees]

I'd myself, be looking to do some experiments so, provided if it's possible to remove the tire, and reinstall again (if the camber is still present, that is)
along with having a cheap, say 3/4" blade for testing, preferably not a very hungry one, and definitely not an expensive CT blade!
Test cut before changing things, on something suited for the blade in question, and take a video for yourself.
Now for the next test cut, remove blade, and tire, install suitable tape of some type in the groove, and reinstall.
Hopefully the camber will be acting as it's present again, and the tire still remains tight on the edges.

If even for just a test cut, it would be like night and day.
I wouldn't be so eager to go mad doing test cuts beforehand, as you likely stand a very good chance of compressing the set of a regular blade, with tires which have lost their profile, and that's tracking as per Sam or anyone else, teeth off the wheels.
The lack of beam tension is why.

My money is on, an absolute night and day kinda thing... and, if you have already a blade with compressed set, then doing said test will really drive that home,
taking things to a will cut or won't cut scenario,
You might not be interested in shopping for thrust guides after that.

I've documented the tire profile for the Centauro CO a good few pages back, along with all the rest.
Indeed, "insufficient flywheel seal convexity an assumption", as you might have a power feeder stuck on your saw, and resawing at full depth too,
but not getting the impression that things are so, because there be no mention in detail of feed rate nor anything that takes a video to demonstrate, and for something
like this instance, a picture ain't going to tell folks much, seeing as the Woodmaster CT is so impressive.

All the best
Tom

[Richard Coers]

Oiling bearings is easy and can be done without removing the shields or the bearings from the machine. Drill a very small hole in the shield just big enough to fit the tip of a precision oiler in it and the oil is added at any time you feel the need. I doubt if any debris will get in a hole that size and give the sield a wipe now and then to keep it clean as fine debris and dust will get past the shilds on some bearings.
We are talking about a sleeve bearing, no shields.