We need more trade schools

[dennis thompson]

There is an interesting story in the Wall Street Journal about a trade/vocational school in St George, Maine.
There were no trade schools in the district, so St George decided to create one but the school district wouldn’t allow it,( how crazy is that?).
So St George broke off and created their own district with a new trade school. Not just in high school but in all grades beginning in kindergarten.
The story cites several students who were bored and doing poorly in school. When they switched to the trade program their interest and grades improved.
I think there are many students who would benefit by switching to a trade school.
We need more trade/vocational schools and school districts like the one in St George.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

That is a neat story. There is a whole lot of liability involved in teaching the trades. The small town schools around central MO simply can not afford the premiums for insurance that covers allowing kids to use tools. The entire AG shop program at the little school I attended no longer exists. We do have very good trade schools. They have become consolidated efforts and the kids are bussed in from a big area.

[Lamar Keeney]

We have lost many trade schools in our state what is left has been limited in what they offer. Mostly IT and medical. After our industries left the country due to NAFTA There was no demand for many of the trades and now that the ones that were left are retiring there is no one to fill their place.

[Jim Koepke]

Especially with manufacturing moving back to North America we need to teach trades and related subjects more than ever.

I recall many years ago listening to a speaker who lamented so much of our education system being focused on the college bound. He asked, "what about those who are work bound or bound for a normal life?"

If students have the ability, they should be taught how to trouble shoot things around the home that may need minor repairs. Students should be taught how to use tools. I've seen many a person unaware of the proper way to use a Crescent wrench so it doesn't slip and round over the corners on a nut or bolt.

Then there is learning how to cook food that isn't prepackaged to be warmed up in a microwave.

jtk

[jack duren]

As far as I know school wood shop and farming isn’t even considered a trade anymore. With everybody looking for a reason to sue, I can understand shutting down school woodshop. I took wood shop in school and made a career from it. I’m the only one that I know that did..

the last cabinet makers union was in KC. There all just carpenters union now..

[Dave Fritz]

Wisconsin has a large network of Vocational Schools. There are several issues at play, one, legislatures require more and more from the curriculum and place an emphasis on performance testing without adding additional resources. Some classes cost more to have, for example English is a much cheaper class to have than shop class. Chemistry and associated lab sciences are also more expensive than social studies etc. We also have school employee shortages. Aids can make more at Target than working in the school. Teachers ability to organize and have a say about working conditions and salary have been taken away. Better to sell insurance and be your own boss. Legislatures have also given tremendous power to parents, so much so that demands are made on schools and kids are able to get away with almost anything and there's no option for discipline. The authority of the teacher has been taken away. There is no accountability for misbehavior. I feel sorry for kids that are in classes with disrespectful spoiled kids whose parents are suppositive of their kid. The "good kids" suffer in the end.

[Jim Becker]

Our county has excellent vocatation/trade schools that are utilized by multiple school districts. They also have adult programs. That said, it needs to become more acceptable "socially" for folks to choose trades over university. Many of us here in this forum as well as our kids all heard the "you need a college education to get ahead" mantra constantly which in turn influenced things like investment in vocational education. It's only been recently that more people are hearing the wake-up call in a hard way...such as when they try to hire a trade and either can't find someone or have to wait a substantial period of time for an appointment. There's been a substantial "greying" of folks in the trades, too, because of this and we're now playing catch up as a society because people retire. Many did retire in the past few years because of "the global event", as a matter of fact, which made it easy given most "elective" work came to a stop. Dave brings up a good point about valuing the folks who teach, too.

I'll add one other important thing here. I have a female acquaintance who is the only woman journeyman in a 600+ member millwright union in the mid-west. Not only are women not represented in the trades in numbers, my friend indicates that she and others who have tried to stick around, have been treated poorly by the males they need to work with. It's not about skills. It's about deep seated, um...learned behavior...that is frankly immoral. I truly admire my friend for sticking it out for over four years now so she can support her now 12 year old son and make a good living. But I abhor what she has had to endure just because she has indoor plumbing rather than outdoor plumbing. BTW, her work has been in huge manufacturing facilities as well as building 300' tall windmills. It's hard work, but even as a 5'2" 120 lb human, she carries her load in the work.

[Edward Weber]

I was fortunate enough to have a trade school affiliated with my high school.
The school served 5 different districts. Students went 1/2 day to regular school, then the other 1/2 trade school, or as we called it VoTech or just Tech.
Just about everyone I knew who went, continued on in some sort or trade.

I agree, they're sorely needed now

[Curt Harms]

A lot of the work that previously required "a strong back and a weak mind" has either shrunken dramatically - think mining, steel making, that sort of thing or has transitioned to strong machines or robots and minds capable of building and servicing them. There are still jobs that require quite a bit of strength - logging comes to mind - but there are a whole lot more jobs that Jim's 5 foot 2 120 lb. human can do just fine. Also, a lot of jobs aren't relocatable. Think utility company line crews, HVAC techs, electricians and plumbers. When my furnace quit a while ago I wasn't looking for somebody offshore 'cause they work cheap. I don't care where my software or entertainment is produced, it can all be sent over a cable. Good luck sending the installation of a new electric car charger over a cable. Instructions sure but not the pliers and screwdriver work.

[Edward Weber]

Our county has excellent vocatation/trade schools that are utilized by multiple school districts. They also have adult programs. That said, it needs to become more acceptable "socially" for folks to choose trades over university. Many of us here in this forum as well as our kids all heard the "you need a college education to get ahead" mantra constantly which in turn influenced things like investment in vocational education. It's only been recently that more people are hearing the wake-up call in a hard way...such as when they try to hire a trade and either can't find someone or have to wait a substantial period of time for an appointment. There's been a substantial "greying" of folks in the trades, too, because of this and we're now playing catch up as a society because people retire. Many did retire in the past few years because of "the global event", as a matter of fact, which made it easy given most "elective" work came to a stop. Dave brings up a good point about valuing the folks who teach, too.

I'll add one other important thing here. I have a female acquaintance who is the only woman journeyman in a 600+ member millwright union in the mid-west. Not only are women not represented in the trades in numbers, my friend indicates that she and others who have tried to stick around, have been treated poorly by the males they need to work with. It's not about skills. It's about deep seated, um...learned behavior...that is frankly immoral. I truly admire my friend for sticking it out for over four years now so she can support her now 12 year old son and make a good living. But I abhor what she has had to endure just because she has indoor plumbing rather than outdoor plumbing. BTW, her work has been in huge manufacturing facilities as well as building 300' tall windmills. It's hard work, but even as a 5'2" 120 lb human, she carries her load in the work.
Jim, did they change the name of Middle Bucks Vocational Technical school to Middle Bucks Institute of Technology?

[Dave Anderson NH]

My son chose not to go the college route. He kicked around in several dead end jobs until he matured and decided it was time to get serious about life. Now at 52 he has an associates in business, has masters licenses in 3 states for plumbing and HVAC. He did side work on his own for extra money until the beginning of November. He now has his own full time business with 2 employees and is looking for a third. He is working 6+ days a week to keep up with the demand until he can get more help. He is already profitable. There is trouble hiring folks with even just oil and gas burner licenses. The Voctech schools can't produce graduates fast enough even with their additional night programs for folks wanting a career change.

[Brian Runau]

Or do we need companies to hire, train and retain employees with pay and benefits on their own Vs all of us being disposable at the drop of a hat. Sorry, in a mood today. Brian

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A local industrial building contractor coupled with the local high school to open a trade school. A local industrial electrical manufacturer coupled with a local state college to create a trade/technical school. There are now 2 trade schools here in the valley.

My Dad chased oil rigs for a living. I grew up in places like Kemmerer, WY, Craig, CO, Blanding, UT and Flora, IL. In short, I worked in a large number of major cities in CA, OR, WA and throughout the Midwest including living and working 4 years in the Chicago area. My coworkers in Chicago were making book I couldn't slow down enough to learn to live in Lewiston, ID when I transferred here. I have advised several young people asking this question "Where do you want to live for the rest of your life?" If it's not in a major city, I wouldn't go into electronics but rather train to become a licensed electrician. You will be able to find work anywhere you want to go, even those small unheard of towns. There is a great need and reason for the trades!

[Jack Frederick]

Happy to report our local JC is currently building a Construction Technology building. Should open in the fall. I don’t know what they will offer but they have an industrial DC outside. Looking forward to seeing what is offered.
For my part, I have 3/4 of a college education. Ran out of money in ‘69 and was out of school with debt. I caught on with the UA Plumbers/Fitters. Finished my time and went out on the road proving that the rolling stone gathers no moss. Ken, we might have run across each other in Pasco or Craig. Net/net the trade was a lifeline for me and I talk to any kids who aren’t in school about getting into an apprenticeship if they can. Finish your time, more mature with money in your pocket. If, then you choose to go to school you can do so and make real money weekends, holidays, vacations or just enjoy the trade and be able to work anywhere.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

A local industrial building contractor coupled with the local high school to open a trade school. A local industrial electrical manufacturer coupled with a local state college to create a trade/technical school. There are now 2 trade schools here in the valley.

The AG shop at our tiny country high school was like this. The teacher collaborated closely with the John Deere franchise and the two big industrial fabricating plants in town. The school shop was amazingly well equipped with donations from John Deere, Standard Havens and Monning Industries. There was for sure some nepotism going on. If you did well in shop and had an aptitude for work you could be guaranteed a decent (but tough) job right out of high school.

[Jerome Stanek]

We have a vocational school in our county. They have a number of trades that they train.

[Michael Schuch]

There are no trade schools in my area and the quality of workers and work is abysmal! I won't even call a "trade" business any more. Electrical, plumbing, HVAC, construction, repair, installing granite counters, appliance repair, etc. I will just figure out how to do it myself. The two exceptions in the past couple decades are roofing and deepening the well. Neither company had impressive workers but the jobs were too big for me to handle myself. It is pretty sad when an HVAC guy comes out and I know more about what he is supposed to be doing that he does!

It is amazing how much the Internet has empowered the technically minded to handle their own projects and problems if they can get over the fear of the unknown and do some self education.

After installing a few mini-splits for myself I helped my boss install one at his place. Only after the mini split was installed and working perfectly did the magnitude of the quotes from local HVAC shops truly hit him!

[Brian Runau]

A local industrial building contractor coupled with the local high school to open a trade school. A local industrial electrical manufacturer coupled with a local state college to create a trade/technical school. There are now 2 trade schools here in the valley.

My Dad chased oil rigs for a living. I grew up in places like Kemmerer, WY, Craig, CO, Blanding, UT and Flora, IL. In short, I worked in a large number of major cities in CA, OR, WA and throughout the Midwest including living and working 4 years in the Chicago area. My coworkers in Chicago were making book I couldn't slow down enough to learn to live in Lewiston, ID when I transferred here. I have advised several young people asking this question "Where do you want to live for the rest of your life?" If it's not in a major city, I wouldn't go into electronics but rather train to become a licensed electrician. You will be able to find work anywhere you want to go, even those small unheard of towns. There is a great need and reason for the trades!

Met a young man from England on a cruise in early 1980's. Both in our early 20's. Told me then people didn't go to college in England, no jobs, they learned a trade.

[mike stenson]

Or do we need companies to hire, train and retain employees with pay and benefits on their own Vs all of us being disposable at the drop of a hat. Sorry, in a mood today. Brian

"Lifetime employment" went out of vogue along with pensions. It's all a short-term, transactional, relationship now. By design. Then people wonder why there's no employee loyalty.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My Grandpa went straight off the farm at 17 to a trade school in Chicago in 1930. It was called The Lewis Academy. I can't find a thing about it on the web. When he got back to the farm he embarked on a quest to bring electricity to rural southern Iowa. His work planting poles and stringing wire made him popular enough to win a seat on the state legislature. He never went to college.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, did they change the name of Middle Bucks Vocational Technical school to Middle Bucks Institute of Technology?
Indeed they did. I've known a few kiddos who have graduated from there and one who is a current student.

https://www.mbit.org/

[Jerry Bruette]

The high school I attended did a good job of preparing students for college, lots of college prep courses. Teachers and guidance counselors pushed college.

Unfortunately I wasn't college material. I had a keen interest in machine shop activities but the high school didn't have any machine shop classes let alone a machine shop.

So I opted to go the military service route. The Navy trained me as a MR, Machinery Repairman. I got my machine shop training and job while being paid.

Fast forward eight years and I'm working in a local pulp mill and and they have a job opening for millwright. I passed the aptitude test and started my apprenticeship at the local Vocational/Technical College. Part of the Wisconsin system Dave Fritz referred to earlier. Spent the next 30 plus years making a good living as a millwright/maintenance mechanic. It was a challenging and enjoyable job. I got to work with my head and with my hands. Many of the jobs we did had no guidance from engineering, we thought of the solution to a problem, designed the solution and fabbed/built the solution.

I don't know about other states but I believe Wisconsin has enough trade schools in their system. What the world needs is more young people to have an interest in the trades be it mechanical, electrical, instrumentation, piping or which ever trade you pick. They're good paying jobs that may require some holiday, weekend, and overtime work but they are very rewarding when faced with a problem and you find the solution and get a machine installed or back up and running.

When I retired two years ago the company I worked for was robbing a local foundry of their maintenance employees. The foundry didn't believe in having journeymen maintenance employees. So they were picked away for more money and schooling. Many of my former teammates were dual and triple carded journeymen. The more cards you held the more you got paid. And all the schooling was on the company's dime. Hard to beat that offer.

[Jerry Bruette]

I'll add one other important thing here. I have a female acquaintance who is the only woman journeyman in a 600+ member millwright union in the mid-west. Not only are women not represented in the trades in numbers, my friend indicates that she and others who have tried to stick around, have been treated poorly by the males they need to work with. It's not about skills. It's about deep seated, um...learned behavior...that is frankly immoral. I truly admire my friend for sticking it out for over four years now so she can support her now 12 year old son and make a good living. But I abhor what she has had to endure just because she has indoor plumbing rather than outdoor plumbing. BTW, her work has been in huge manufacturing facilities as well as building 300' tall windmills. It's hard work, but even as a 5'2" 120 lb human, she carries her load in the work.

I didn't work out of a union hall, but I know a few people who did. My understanding is that the "learned behavior" comes from being afraid of someone you view as less capable doing the job as well or better than you. I've heard stories of journeymen training apprentices and not giving them all the information or knowledge to do a job out of fear of being replaced by the apprentice.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Indeed they did. I've known a few kiddos who have graduated from there and one who is a current student.

https://www.mbit.org/

Where would we be without that trade school in Cambridge Mass, M.I.T. ? (we would be wishing we had a steadier hand to hold our routers).

[Edward Weber]

Indeed they did. I've known a few kiddos who have graduated from there and one who is a current student.

https://www.mbit.org/

Thanks Jim
When I graduated from there in 82, there were lots of different trades.
As far as I remember, there was;
Mechanic (gas/car)
Diesel mechanic
Carpentry
Appliance repair
Food prep
Baking
Masonry
Printing/graphic arts
Machine shop
Auto Body
Cosmotology
Electronics of some kind
and some more I can't remember right now.
There was a modular (two piece) home built every year and I believe it was auctioned off.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Having taught shop/carpentry in the mid nineties, the in thing was everybody is going to be a computer whiz. We didn't need people who could fix the toilets. Our influx of people into this country, is because they are willing to do the trade jobs, and they are plenty of jobs. During the recession of 2008, several MILLION left the building industry, and have never returned. Same for the food industry during Covid. As an example, our two sons, one college educated, and the other a high school drop out, both work in the trades. College one owned (10+ years) his home repair company and recently sold it. Other son recently closed his independent heavy equipment repair business to go full time with one of his customers. Both make six figure salaries. Despite having a degree in engineering, I spent most of my working years in the construction industry. Spent last 25 years working for myself. Never printed a business card, and turned down more work than I did.

[Bill Dufour]

My Grandpa went straight off the farm at 17 to a trade school in Chicago in 1930. It was called The Lewis Academy. I can't find a thing about it on the web. When he got back to the farm he embarked on a quest to bring electricity to rural southern Iowa. His work planting poles and stringing wire made him popular enough to win a seat on the state legislature. He never went to college.


Something in here maybe. Too hard to read for me, google claims it is related.
Bill D
https://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1770&context=luc_diss

[Larry Frank]

I think this is reflective if society today. There are very few kids building things or working on things. Too many are stuck to their phone screens. In a way, we are all responsible for letting our schools do away from shop and other similar classes.

There are too many getting college degrees that do not lead to good jobs. The trades pay pretty well and there is a big demand.

[Ron Citerone]

I taught Middle School Industrial Arts from 1983 to 2018.

* My department once had 9 teachers.

* When I retired I was one of three and I was not replaced upon leaving.

My thoughts on why this is happening:

Educators making decisions at the State levels are college educated and see college as the main path to success.

Administration sees hands on learning as "Old School" and see computer technology as the be all and end all.

Parents of influence are often college educated and aren't willing to fight for technical education.

Industrial Arts programs cost more per student hour than classroom instruction.

New generation administrators have been trained to worship test scores above all else, and technical education doesn't impact test scores.

College students are not choosing Industrial Arts Education as a major and school districts can't find certified teachers even if they want them.

Technically trained teachers find more lucrative jobs for their skill set and leave the profession.


Industrial Arts/ Tech Ed is not exactly trade/vocational education but are intertwined and the challenges are similar IMO.

[Rod Sheridan]

As far as I know school wood shop and farming isn’t even considered a trade anymore. With everybody looking for a reason to sue, I can understand shutting down school woodshop. I took wood shop in school and made a career from it. I’m the only one that I know that did..

the last cabinet makers union was in KC. There all just carpenters union now..

Hello Jack, is cabinet making a licensed trade in the US?

I agree that the loss of shop classes is a tragedy for students, some students used it as a motivation to a career,some used used it as a motivation to a hobby and some learned that it wasn’t for them, all valuable outcomes.

In Canada, we also have a shortage of shop classes, and a shortage of trades people due to lack of training and apprenticeship availability, as well as the Boomer demographic retiring ( me 3 years ago).

It doesn’t seem to be something we’re doing a good job of solving.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Ed, the building trade programs at MBIT still do the modular home each year back behind the main building (which I believe has changed quite a bit since you were there) It's a great way to learn "on an actual job" while enjoying the benefits of being on the school site as well as for any financial benefits that come from the structure becoming someone's home.

[Jim Becker]

I didn't work out of a union hall, but I know a few people who did. My understanding is that the "learned behavior" comes from being afraid of someone you view as less capable doing the job as well or better than you. I've heard stories of journeymen training apprentices and not giving them all the information or knowledge to do a job out of fear of being replaced by the apprentice.
Yea, I'm sure that where some of it stems from but it's amplified by the "horror" that a woman could do as good or better job...especially when she does.

[Jason Hennry]

Absolutely agree! It's inspiring to see communities taking initiative for trade education. Tailoring education to individual interests and skills can truly make a difference in students' lives.

[Brian Elfert]

The high school I went to had a complete renovation along with an expansion 25 to 30 years ago. At some point along the way all of the industrial arts spaces were converted to other uses. No idea if this was done during the renovation. Woodworking, metal shop, and small engines are no longer taught. They have some sort of maker type class. Small engines, auto shop, and welding are offered at the other high school in the district for students at the high school with no industrial education classes, but I have no idea how students get to the other high school at attend class.

The crazy thing is now days the high school offers a bunch of business classes. When I was in high school in the late 80s there were no business classes. That is something you would be expected to learn in college. I took every industrial arts class that was offered in high school. We didn't have an auto shop so I never took any auto classes. I don't believe there was an option to take auto shop at the other high school.

[Edward Weber]

While White collar Jobs are important, they often need Blue Collar jobs to work in conjunction.
This is where Trades and Industrial Arts, etc come into play

All the computer science degrees in the world will not sweat a copper pipe connection or replace a rotten sill or ... fill in the blank.
There's no app for that, no AI is going to dig a ditch.
Someone actually has to get their hands dirty and do the physical work, even when things become automated. Someone still needs to repair the machines.
We've gotten to the time where when things fail, they're just replaced, never repaired.

[mike stenson]

I'll also point out that engineering is amongst the easiest jobs to offshore. Pretty much right after manufacturing. It's been a trend for most of the last twenty years of my career. At this point, I wouldn't recommend a STEM career.

[Curt Harms]

I think this is reflective if society today. There are very few kids building things or working on things. Too many are stuck to their phone screens. In a way, we are all responsible for letting our schools do away from shop and other similar classes.

There are too many getting college degrees that do not lead to good jobs. The trades pay pretty well and there is a big demand.

True, but in some cases job applicants must have a college degree. It may not matter what the degree is in but they must have a degree. I asked an HR type about that and was told in part that having a college degree demonstrated the ability to assimilate a lot of information in a relatively short time and demonstrated a stick-to-itness. Make of that what you will.

[Curt Harms]

I'll also point out that engineering is amongst the easiest jobs to offshore. Pretty much right after manufacturing. It's been a trend for most of the last twenty years of my career. At this point, I wouldn't recommend a STEM career.

At one point I was working with a Pakistani owned IT company. I learned that Pakistan doesn't have much in the way of natural resources so their resources were their people. Young people showing an aptitude received a technical education. This company did most of their data entry and other drudge work in Pakistan. Data generated in the U.S. went to Pakistan via the internet where it was processed, massaged and returned to the U.S. via the internet. They were paid 10% of what an American worker would receive for the same job. They were English proficient enough to be able to do their jobs, better written than spoken.

[mike stenson]

At one point I was working with a Pakistani owned IT company. I learned that Pakistan doesn't have much in the way of natural resources so their resources were their people. Young people showing an aptitude received a technical education. This company did most of their data entry and other drudge work in Pakistan. Data generated in the U.S. went to Pakistan via the internet where it was processed, massaged and returned to the U.S. via the internet. They were paid 10% of what an American worker would receive for the same job. They were English proficient enough to be able to do their jobs, better written than spoken.

Yep, first it was China, then it was Indonesia, then Pakistan and India, Hungary, Egypt, Bulgaria, Brazil, now Mexico and the rest of Latin America. It's always the next cheapest place, right after the economies develop enough for wages to go up.. And gone.

[Stan Calow]

Preaching to the choir here. Trade school education seems to have been pushed to community colleges.

For the most part, we have the education system that we deserve, and that voters are willing to fund. The parents in suburban school districts around here expect their kids to go to college. And the kids expect it to be 4 years of drunken party time, paid for and encouraged to think that way by mom & dad. So school systems are driven by that demand, The for-profit universities (all of them) compete for "customers" by dumbing down entry requirements and graduating un-prepared children in easy but worthless degrees. In other countries, you have to pass a lot of tests and compete before being admitted to higher education. More aptitude testing at the high school level is a good idea.

[Jerry Bruette]

While White collar Jobs are important, they often need Blue Collar jobs to work in conjunction.
This is where Trades and Industrial Arts, etc come into play

All the computer science degrees in the world will not sweat a copper pipe connection or replace a rotten sill or ... fill in the blank.
There's no app for that, no AI is going to dig a ditch.
Someone actually has to get their hands dirty and do the physical work, even when things become automated. Someone still needs to repair the machines.
We've gotten to the time where when things fail, they're just replaced, never repaired.

Made a decent living troubleshooting and fixing "automation". If I had been dual carded, mechanical and electrical, I could have made even more money.

[jack duren]

I don’t think we need anymore woodworking trade schools.

[Edward Weber]

I don’t think we need anymore woodworking trade schools.
I couldn't disagree more.
A school where they actually taught woodworking, not just weekend build seminars. I think we do need them.
All we have now is a handful of elite courses for weekend warriors and YouTube, for the most part. From what I've seen in th e past 20 years or so, "the basics" are just disappearing. People still cut wood and stick it together but few actually understand what they're doing and why.

It takes years to become a competent woodworker, not just some knob who makes things from pallets for clicks. No one wants to commit to learning anything in a long term situation anymore in our short attention span society. I've been woodworking for decades and there are still areas of the craft that I've only touched the surface on.
We could benefit from a few schools like this IMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llJvFYBpTu4

[Warren Lake]

Its too big for me to comment on as there are many dynamics right down to teachers. I had one school teacher tell me the guy teaching woodwork was teaching computers the week before. I lucked out got real europeans from the trade so they did their best to set up a program here dumbed down and in a smaller time frame. He taught me for 35 years after the school thing.

Years after I was out of the school the old guy was telling me hed have to have a degree to teach. Really? book knowledge over 50 years real experience. I would have lost out big time because he didn't just teach us the course he taught us real world experience from learning in munich to running huge companies here. No book worm can teach that.

I don't like the set up as it is, there isnt one, it should be a regulated trade same as plumbing and electrical. If not to protect the consumer then to protect the people in the trade. It was a more respected trade years ago. Now its becoming a content creator trade.

I lucked out so fine for me plus the 35 plus year friendship and being adopted. His wife just died on the weekend so a son 32 gone, then him, then another son 51 six months later and now the wife. Four people gone from one family and all had a big affect on my life. Drove home really wondering what this life thing is about, the why of it all.

Cabinetmaking and Carpentry are two different trades or they were. I know a stellar carpenter. 5 Mil home no problem. Put him in a cabinet shop and there is nothing he could make furniture wise id want.

Now maybe in Europe and im not up on it they meld the two more bringing carpenters into a shop with machines as part of their teaching.

[Mike Soaper]

"It takes years to become a competent woodworker, not just some knob who makes things from pallets for clicks. No one wants to commit to learning anything in a long term situation anymore in our short attention span society."

A woodworker\housewright once told me that back in the day when they were young those starting out in their shop spent the first year learning how to sharpen before they could even cut a piece of wood edit: for a project.

[jack duren]

I can disagree with it all day. #1… I took three years off woodworking shop #2… my neighbor just retired as a full time woodshop teacher and said he was lucky they didn’t end the class while he was teaching..


#3….cabinet guys don’t make much. Commercial guys don’t make much. If you own it you can do well . Furniture guys/gal…. Only if you the MAIN furniture make and not the helper..

if I had to do it over…. I’d get into Heating and cooling.

[Pat Germain]

While I certainly agree that America needs trade schools and education in the trades, this is a very complicated issue. Here are some points often missed in these discussions.

- Many young people heard a lot of negatives from parents who worked in the trades as it became more and more difficult to earn a good living. For example:

* "My boss is some twenty-something clown with a business degree. He doesn't know a condensor from an evaporator, but he overrules everything I say on every HVAC install I do. He has also frozen all wages and keeps cutting our hours. Go to college, Junior. That's where the money is."

* "Every year we get more and more immigrants on the job site. They live in old, run down houses and apartments with 20 other people. They work for peanuts. So why should they pay me more? Go to college. There's no way to make a good living in framing/roofing/concrete/landscaping anymore."

* "Ever since NAFTA, I can't compete with foreign truck drivers. They come over the border in dilapidated trucks with bald tires. I can't get away with that on my rig. Go to college, Lester. There's no money in truck driving anymore."

And so all those young people avoided blue collar, trades jobs and went to college. They were saddled with a lot of debt and now they are finding all their peers did the same thing. So, now there's a shortage of blue collar, trades workers and all the kids with degrees don't know how to use a clutch and can't tell which end of screwdriver does what.

- We have been cutting taxes in the US since the early 1980s. All that missing revenue had to result in cuts somewhere. Public education took a major hit from primary schools to public universities. Trades education costs money for work spaces and machines. Those workspaces must be heated and cooled. Those machines must be updated, maintained and, eventually, replaced with more modern examples to stay relevant. Not enough funding? "No more shop classes, people. We can't afford it." Public universities kept losing more and more public funding. So they kept raising tuition and fees more and more. And the government kept increasing the amount of money students could borrow more and more. And now, here we are with so many young people saddled with oppressive school debt.

- Unfortunately, primary schools didn't make a whole lot of effort to help kids who didn't do well in school on their own. Instead of testing them for ADHD or other learning disabilities, it was easier to just stick them in shop class. It was the same for kids with behavior issues. Thus, shop classes tended to have a lot of poor academic performers with learning disabilities and trouble makers. I never took wood shop in high school, but my brother did. He told me many stories about all the delinquents and bullies in the class who never accomplished anything. They would simply walk around terrorizing other students, breaking the machines and vandalizing the projects other kids made. The teacher had no time or desire to do anything about it. Since shop classes became synonymous with "dumb kids" and delinquents, who would want their kids to take shop?

- Through the 1980s, manufacturing took a GIGANTIC hit in North America. The vast majority of the places where high school graduates could get good jobs that paid a living wage simply went away. When I graduated high school near Stillwater Oklahoma, I could have applied at the Swan hose factory, National Standard wire machining, Overland Color Press printing, Mercury Marine boat motor factory, a vinyl flooring factory or multiple machine shops. Stillwater is a pretty small town, but all those places offered good pay and benefits for almost any high school graduate. I chose to enlist in the Navy and it's a good thing I did. One by one, all those places closed. Literally every one of those employers are now gone and nothing replaced them. Many of the people who got laid off went to school at Oklahoma State University, also in Stillwater, and got a degree. They had learned there were no opportunities without a degree. Their children learned the same lesson and also went to college.

And now we have a lot of openings for trades positions. It's interesting how I often see memes and hear talk show commentators talk about all the high paying jobs available in the trades. But when I talk to people who actually work in those trades, they tell me almost nobody actually makes that much money. Corporations and business owners do everything possible to keep wages low and benefits minimal. And no matter how many openings they have, they close their wallets with a torque wrench. My brother still lives in Stillwater. Many times he has told me about a new company coming to town and everybody being all excited about all the high paying jobs coming with it. My brother is always skeptical and he's always right. The only reason companies come to Stillwater is because they're looking for low-cost labor so they pay extremely low wages. The most absurd was all the hype about a Google data center. Wow, lots of tech jobs, right? Think again. Google built the data center and a wind farm to power it. They brought in a manager from out of state and hired a guy to mop the floors. That was it. Everything else is automated or done remotely over the network. Maybe there are a few jobs for people who work on wind turbines?

Months ago Dave Ramsey was going on and on about all the good job openings going unfilled because, "Nobody wants to work anymore!". On YouTube, his videos had many comments arguing why Ramsey was full of it. People pointed out they had applied for those jobs at Target, for example, and found out they were all part time for minimum wage or slightly above, nights, weekends, holidays and unpredictable schedules. Many people wrote, "I already have a job like that and it sucks. Why would I want another job that sucks at a different company?".

[mike stenson]

Dave seems to be stuck in the mid90s to the 2008 collapse.

[Brian Elfert]

I drive by a local high school periodically. They had a small house in a fenced area of the parking lot that presumably students were working on. I never saw any work actually going on, and all of the materials must have been stored in the shipping container sitting nearby. At some point recently the house disappeared and now it appears there is large shed being built. I don't know if the house got moved to a lot, or what. The area around the school is fully developed so no idea where there would be land to put the house. It would definitely be a starter home as it was probably under 1,000 square feet.

I assume it is high school students, but it could be continuing education. High school students most likely since it would be dark for continuing education at night.

[jack duren]

You guys seem to be talking about two different trades here..

[Jim Becker]

I drive by a local high school periodically. They had a small house in a fenced area of the parking lot that presumably students were working on. I never saw any work actually going on, and all of the materials must have been stored in the shipping container sitting nearby. At some point recently the house disappeared and now it appears there is large shed being built. I don't know if the house got moved to a lot, or what. The area around the school is fully developed so no idea where there would be land to put the house. It would definitely be a starter home as it was probably under 1,000 square feet.

I assume it is high school students, but it could be continuing education. High school students most likely since it would be dark for continuing education at night.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the local Technical (trade) school near me has been doing a modular house every year going back a very long time. The structure is sold upon completion to a private party who presumably has a property to put it on. The students work on the structure throughout the year until it has "all the things" that are necessary as they learn to do their particular trade.

[Keegan Shields]

I couldn’t agree more with the OP. I have a masters in business from UT, but I’m also an alum of the BOCES program in NY. You attend 1/2 days for the last 2 years of high school.

Really great program. I took computer science, but they have programs for welding, plumbing, HVAC, heavy equipment, electricians, cosmetology, food services, etc.

https://www.tstboces.org/

Every state could use a program like this. Lots of kids find a lifelong career there. Great use of taxpayer dollars IMO.

[Peter Mich]

Wisconsin has a large network of Vocational Schools. There are several issues at play, one, legislatures require more and more from the curriculum and place an emphasis on performance testing without adding additional resources. Some classes cost more to have, for example English is a much cheaper class to have than shop class. Chemistry and associated lab sciences are also more expensive than social studies etc. We also have school employee shortages. Aids can make more at Target than working in the school. Teachers ability to organize and have a say about working conditions and salary have been taken away. Better to sell insurance and be your own boss. Legislatures have also given tremendous power to parents, so much so that demands are made on schools and kids are able to get away with almost anything and there's no option for discipline. The authority of the teacher has been taken away. There is no accountability for misbehavior. I feel sorry for kids that are in classes with disrespectful spoiled kids whose parents are suppositive of their kid. The "good kids" suffer in the end.

All very important issues to consider when discussing school change and improvements.

School funding is another tough nut to crack.

The drive to privatize American education through such things as charter schools and voucher programs and home schooling has produced an educational landscape that is far different from the public school system that many of us experienced back in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s when shop classes may have been more plentiful. In Wisconsin, families can sign up for a voucher that covers $8,000 to $9,000 in private school tuition costs for a student exiting the public school system. Their home district then sees a cut in state aid equivalent to the cost of the student’s private school voucher. State law also prohibits districts from levying taxpayers to cover those losses. Per pupil funding in Wisconsin was increased for school choice programs, but remained flat for the traditional system despite the inflation that occurred. It is tough to maintain class sizes, pay teachers, preserve programs, much less create new shop programs, when new funding is consistently less than the rate of inflation and choice options have the effect of siphoning off limited monies.

[Brian Elfert]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the local Technical (trade) school near me has been doing a modular house every year going back a very long time. The structure is sold upon completion to a private party who presumably has a property to put it on. The students work on the structure throughout the year until it has "all the things" that are necessary as they learn to do their particular trade.

I'm just surprised they are doing this at a regular high school that is not a technical high school.

[Brian Elfert]

- Unfortunately, primary schools didn't make a whole lot of effort to help kids who didn't do well in school on their own. Instead of testing them for ADHD or other learning disabilities, it was easier to just stick them in shop class. It was the same for kids with behavior issues. Thus, shop classes tended to have a lot of poor academic performers with learning disabilities and trouble makers. I never took wood shop in high school, but my brother did. He told me many stories about all the delinquents and bullies in the class who never accomplished anything. They would simply walk around terrorizing other students, breaking the machines and vandalizing the projects other kids made. The teacher had no time or desire to do anything about it. Since shop classes became synonymous with "dumb kids" and delinquents, who would want their kids to take shop?


I graduated high school in 1990. Certainly, the best and brightest weren't taking wood shop because those students wanted to take classes that would help polish their resume for college. There were less than stellar students in wood shop, but the vast majority were just middle of the road students like me. One semester there were two "super" seniors who didn't graduate who were just taking wood shop hoping it would be an easy class to get a grade above an F to graduate.

I don't recall anyone intentionally damaging anything in the shop. The shop was full of Northfield tools that would take real effort to break.

[Pat Germain]

I graduated high school in 1990. Certainly, the best and brightest weren't taking wood shop because those students wanted to take classes that would help polish their resume for college. There were less than stellar students in wood shop, but the vast majority were just middle of the road students like me. One semester there were two "super" seniors who didn't graduate who were just taking wood shop hoping it would be an easy class to get a grade above an F to graduate.

I don't recall anyone intentionally damaging anything in the shop. The shop was full of Northfield tools that would take real effort to break.

It's no coincidence that the shop bullies my brother told me about didn't graduate high school. I expect you are correct that it would take effort to break old, American iron tools. But my brother and his classmate both told me it was typical for the shop bullies to cram a 4/4 board into a planer set at 1/8". That or they would steel some kid's textbook and run it through the planer. That can't be good for a machine.

My brother built a very nice cedar chest when he was in wood shop. My mom still has it. My brother said he was lucky to get it home before some shop bully smashed it to pieces. Yeah, not a good environment.

I'm recalling one of my classmates telling me when he was in wood shop, he turned a "Billy Club" on the lathe. The shop teacher wouldn't let him take it home because it was a "weapon". So my classmate found a cue ball, drilled a hole it and attached it to the Billy Club. It then became twice as lethal, but my classmate told the shop teacher is was a "walking stick" and he was allowed to take it home.

[Pat Germain]

Stillwater, Oklahoma had a pretty good "Vo-Tech" system when I was in high school. In my junior and senior years, I would go to my school in the AM then ride a bus to Vo Tech for afternoon classes. I took Electricity/Electronics my first year. The kids who didn't do so well in the first year were encouraged to take Electricity the next year. The kids who did better the first year were encouraged to take Advanced Electronics the second year. For some reason, I was able to understand electronics and did well. Thus, I took Advanced Electronics my second year.

Ironically, everything I learned about electronics is now completely obsolete. Nobody messes with semiconductors anymore. Had I taken Electricity my second year and learned how to be an Electrician's apprentice, I would have been much better off. All that stuff is still relevant.

My brother took Auto Body at Vo-Tech. He quickly learned there was NO money working at an auto body shop. He worked his tail off for a few years at part time, minimum wage with no benefits jobs. There was never any opportunity for full time work, advancement or pay raises.

My wife took Secretarial Training. When we lived in Washington DC, she actually got a really good job at a corporate headquarters as a receptionist/mail clerk. She was good at it and made much more money than I did as an active duty sailor. When I got transferred, the company couldn't find anyone to replace her. She spent two mornings trying to train two different young women. When they saw how much work was involved, they went to lunch and never came back.

[Patty Hann]

Stillwater, Oklahoma had a pretty good "Vo-Tech" system when I was in high school. In my junior and senior years, I would go to my school in the AM then ride a bus to Vo Tech for afternoon classes. I took Electricity/Electronics my first year. The kids who didn't do so well in the first year were encouraged to take Electricity the next year. The kids who did better the first year were encouraged to take Advanced Electronics the second year. For some reason, I was able to understand electronics and did well. Thus, I took Advanced Electronics my second year.

Ironically, everything I learned about electronics is now completely obsolete. Nobody messes with semiconductors anymore. Had I taken Electricity my second year and learned how to be an Electrician's apprentice, I would have been much better off. All that stuff is still relevant.

My brother took Auto Body at Vo-Tech. He quickly learned there was NO money working at an auto body shop. He worked his tail off for a few years at part time, minimum wage with no benefits jobs. There was never any opportunity for full time work, advancement or pay raises.

My wife took Secretarial Training. When we lived in Washington DC, she actually got a really good job at a corporate headquarters as a receptionist/mail clerk. She was good at it and made much more money than I did as an active duty sailor. When I got transferred, the company couldn't find anyone to replace her. She spent two mornings trying to train two different young women. When they saw how much work was involved, they went to lunch and never came back.

What was your rating in the Navy?
I signed up with a guaranteed "A" school for electronics. Then went to two "C" schools.
In 6 years total. Once I was discharged I found work in electronics and eventually in Aerospace in Calibration, Electronics lab, but also helped out in the Dimensional, Optical, and Physical Labs.
I'm sure I would have made more as an electrician, but I had no desire to move around to job sites or be a lineman for the public electric companies.

I eventually went to university on both the GI Bill and the "Aerospace nickel" (McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing) and got a BA History. That was just for my own satisfaction.
Boeing wanted me to move into management. "Thanks, but no thanks." Happy as a tech, Salaried, Non-Exempt.
My NAvy electronics training served me very well for 40 years.

[Edward Weber]

I'm just surprised they are doing this at a regular high school that is not a technical high school.

Traditional schools send students to the tech/trade school for half a day. This counts as credits towards graduation.

[Brian Elfert]

Traditional schools send students to the tech/trade school for half a day. This counts as credits towards graduation.

The house under construction was at the regular high school, not at a tech/trade school.

[Edward Weber]

The house under construction was at the regular high school, not at a tech/trade school.



That's different than the situation at the school Jim and I are talking about.
Does the school have industrial arts/trade courses, as we've all mentioned many don't anymore.

[Tom M King]

I never thought about taking shop in school. Here, trades are taught in Community Colleges. I've always heard that anyone who goes through the welding program can always get a decent job. I expect the same is true for HVAC. They also have auto mechanic classes.

I went to night classes there in 1975 to be able to take the tests for Plumbing and Electrical licenses. Those classes were as good and as well taught as any I ever took in regular school or college.

A close friend of mine taught Welding and Machine work at a trade school for 20 years after NASA cancelled the Apollo program that we was a welder in. He also taught things like lost wax casting there. I'm not sure if they closed the school when he retired, or he retired because they closed the school. In any case, he ended up with all the tools and equipment and left them to me when he passed. I haven't had time to do anything with much of it yet.

[Brian Elfert]

That's different than the situation at the school Jim and I are talking about.
Does the school have industrial arts/trade courses, as we've all mentioned many don't anymore.

The only thing I have ever done is driven by the high school and saw a house being built in a parking lot.

I looked at the school's website and found they have something called a Technology, Engineering, and Design Pathway. One of the classes is a Construction Trades course that is two hours a day for an entire school year. This course builds either a house or small rental cabins over the course of the year. (It appears cabins this year since the structures I have seen are smaller.) The school specifically states they are not a trades school and no college credit is offered. They also offer welding and small engines courses.

[Edward Weber]

Thanks, that sounds like a good place to go, even if just to get exposed to the trades.

[Brian Elfert]

I forgot to mention that students at that high school have the option to go to a local community/tech college for a half day of trades training. The trade training is run by a consortium of school districts.

[Pat Germain]

What was your rating in the Navy?
I signed up with a guaranteed "A" school for electronics. Then went to two "C" schools.
In 6 years total. Once I was discharged I found work in electronics and eventually in Aerospace in Calibration, Electronics lab, but also helped out in the Dimensional, Optical, and Physical Labs.
I'm sure I would have made more as an electrician, but I had no desire to move around to job sites or be a lineman for the public electric companies.

I eventually went to university on both the GI Bill and the "Aerospace nickel" (McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing) and got a BA History. That was just for my own satisfaction.
Boeing wanted me to move into management. "Thanks, but no thanks." Happy as a tech, Salaried, Non-Exempt.
My NAvy electronics training served me very well for 40 years.

When I enlisted I wanted to be a CTM. My ASVAB score was two points below the minimum for the Nave Advanced Electronics Program. They tried to get me to take Mineman, Torpedoman and other things I promptly rejected. Eventually, they offered me IS and I accepted.

I was in the GI Bill doughnut hole. I came in too late for the Vietnam Era GI Bill and too early for Montgomery GI Bill. Yeah, I got completely hosed because I fell into the VEAP program which was completely useless.

I did nine years and got out as an IS1.

[mike stenson]

Stillwater, Oklahoma had a pretty good "Vo-Tech" system when I was in high school..

That's the problem. For the most part, all of these, and other "non-essential" programs, such as fine and performing arts, physical ed, etc, have been gutted over the years. Largely due to budget cuts. So now, we're paying for it.. and it's always more expensive to pay for it later than sooner.

[Patty Hann]

When I enlisted I wanted to be a CTM. My ASVAB score was two points below the minimum for the Nave Advanced Electronics Program. They tried to get me to take Mineman, Torpedoman and other things I promptly rejected. Eventually, they offered me IS and I accepted.

I was in the GI Bill doughnut hole. I came in too late for the Vietnam Era GI Bill and too early for Montgomery GI Bill. Yeah, I got completely hosed because I fell into the VEAP program which was completely useless.

I did nine years and got out as an IS1.

Not familiar with any of the newer GI bills (post Vietnam). Sorry that didn't work out very well for you.
btw I got out as ETN2.

If the two aerospace companies hadn't footed the rest of my education (GI BIll only was good for 10 years after discharge) I still would have gone to ASU, but on my nickel.
It was pretty neat that McDonnell-Douglas paid for one's degree and it didn't matter what you studied, as long it was a univ administered program.
I could have majored in Psych, Poly Sci, Sociology, Music, a Foreign language, English Lit, Art History, Bio-Chem....they didn't care. It didn't have to be job-related.
So I got History, BA (Western Civ) with aaaalllmost a minor in Physics (short a few classes for the minor reqs).

[Jimmy Harris]

I don't think most states want to pay for trade schools. And I don't think most people looking at going to trade schools would be able to pay for it themselves. While I would like to see more, I think the future is going to have less.

I believe we're at the point where companies are just going to have to come to terms with the fact that if they want skilled labor, they're going to have to be the ones who invest in that training themselves. Either that, or regulations are going to have to get relaxed so that people don't need training prior to doing a job, and just let the free market sort the wheat from the chaff. And while I'm not a fan of either of those options, I think that's where we're headed. We, as a society, just kind of lost interest in investing in people or things that don't directly benefit us as individuals.

[Pat Germain]

That's the problem. For the most part, all of these, and other "non-essential" programs, such as fine and performing arts, physical ed, etc, have been gutted over the years. Largely due to budget cuts. So now, we're paying for it.. and it's always more expensive to pay for it later than sooner.

That Vo-Tech in Stillwater still operates. It's now called "Meridian Technology Center" or something similar. My brother works there doing IT Support. They have eliminated and added classes over the years based on demand. I heard they recently eliminated the Masonry course which is surprising. My nephew makes a good living doing masonry and concrete work. His complaint is that he has too much work.

[Ron Citerone]

I don't think most states want to pay for trade schools. And I don't think most people looking at going to trade schools would be able to pay for it themselves. While I would like to see more, I think the future is going to have less.

I believe we're at the point where companies are just going to have to come to terms with the fact that if they want skilled labor, they're going to have to be the ones who invest in that training themselves. Either that, or regulations are going to have to get relaxed so that people don't need training prior to doing a job, and just let the free market sort the wheat from the chaff. And while I'm not a fan of either of those options, I think that's where we're headed. We, as a society, just kind of lost interest in investing in people or things that don't directly benefit us as individuals.

Jim I hate to say it, but I believe you are right. I would add that as a society we don't invest in things that don't show rewards with a long term time frame. Short sighted approach IMO.

[Roger Feeley]

I knew a guy who went through a printing program at a trade school. When he went to college, he leveraged it into a job at the local paper as a pressman and put himself through college. He graduated suma cum laude with a an accounting degree in part because he didn’t have to work as many hours to pay for school and lodging and stuff. He became a CPA and never ran a press again.

[Edward Weber]

Just saw this story today
https://www.siliconvalley.com/2024/02/23/woodshop-has-been-disappearing-from-california-schools-for-decades-heres-why-one-bay-area-teacher-is-bringing-it-back/

[Dave Fritz]

Our granddaughter's school has an apprenticeship program. https://www.mcfarland.k12.wi.us/schools/high/MHS-Sch2Career.cfm#:~:text=Youth%20Apprenticeship%20Pr ogram&text=The%20YA%20program%20is%20a,run%20concurrentl y%20with%20the%20experience. Our granddaughter is currently working at a cooperating bank as a teller and plans to go to college and study finance. She'll be able to work at this bank all through school if she chooses to do so. Maybe the issue isn't the lack of schools, rather the lack of students willing to put forth some effort or not having the vision to see opportunities available to them.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, there are many factors at play here as has been noted. It's complex and varies with geography, too. There has been less emphasis on vocational training in lieu of "go to college to get ahead" for decades and that has affected both physical infrastructure and attitudes, including those of students. I hope that change and quickly because frankly, we are running out of folks trained in the trades and other occupations that society needs to function.

[Dave Fritz]

Jim, I don't disagree with you at all. Schools reflect the community. Decisions regarding programming and curriculum are made by the local school board and the state legislature. Any change must come from the community. However in my opinion some responsibility rests with the student and their family themselves. Opportunities are out there if the student wants them. Concerned community members should go to the school board meetings and/or get on the school board. Contact your legislator and share your thoughts.

[Kevin Jenness]

With the development of artificial intelligence many jobs formerly requiring an advanced education may no longer need human input. Trades and arts that cannot be supplanted by robots may be the last refuge of humans that want to be productive and creative in the physical realm.

[Curt Harms]

With the development of artificial intelligence many jobs formerly requiring an advanced education may no longer need human input. Trades and arts that cannot be supplanted by robots may be the last refuge of humans that want to be productive and creative in the physical realm.

True Kevin and I think commercial woodworking will be one of those diminished by CNC. I expect there'll be niche woodworking jobs for those with the means and desire for something truly unique but 98% of woodworking will be done by designers and machine operators. Installation will be another matter, I don't know to what extent that can be mechanized.

[Kevin Jenness]

True Kevin and I think commercial woodworking will be one of those diminished by CNC. I expect there'll be niche woodworking jobs for those with the means and desire for something truly unique but 98% of woodworking will be done by designers and machine operators. Installation will be another matter, I don't know to what extent that can be mechanized.

Yes, you are probably correct. Who knows if our electronic overlords will desire the sort of workmanship heretofore unavailable through machine processes?

[Michael Drew]

I am a maintenance manager. I have millwrights, electricians, instrument techs, comm techs, machinists, and welders. Each year we go through a recruiting/hiring process to fill open positions, mostly open through attrition nowadays. The pool has dried up. I used to wade through 600+ resumes. Now, I'm lucky to see 200, and half of those are not even remotely qualified.

Try and find a machinist that can run manual machines..... Good luck. They are CNC programmers anymore.

We pay extremely well, 401K + pension, excellent benefits.

There simply are not many in trades anymore. And frankly, work ethic is a trait that seems to have evaporated. I can teach a lot of things, but I can't teach someone work ethics.

If anyone knows a good machinist that might want to work in Alaska, we will be posting for two real soon.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Our Son In Laws younger brother has recently become a certified machinist. He attended a school in the St. Louis MO area (Ranken). We took our son to Lynn MO to check out Lynn Tech (now State Tech) when he was a senior in high school. The schools are still present. They still attract youngsters. I am trying to get up my nerve (at 60) to take a high school level CAD / CAM class at the Carrier Center here in our town.

https://career-center.org/

https://statetechmo.edu/?utm_source=Compulse&utm_medium=Search&utm_campaign=STCOM&utm_content=&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYVhOOhHzcv6HW4mKiHFw vl75nVmfySAx8lxK7yaCrIY4RFIzk4VqLxoCoowQAvD_BwE

https://ranken.edu/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAivGuBhBEEiwAWiFmYW-E27q60FoIq9cRPdGv1Y-ROFnguoF6kzuYTXNAtpF1ukFpBHV0xBoCisoQAvD_BwE

[Brian Elfert]

I am a maintenance manager. I have millwrights, electricians, instrument techs, comm techs, machinists, and welders. Each year we go through a recruiting/hiring process to fill open positions, mostly open through attrition nowadays. The pool has dried up. I used to wade through 600+ resumes. Now, I'm lucky to see 200, and half of those are not even remotely qualified.


Two hundred applications seems like a lot these days. My employer has difficulty finding anyone to apply to IT jobs that pay around the six figure mark. We tried to hire someone starting in January or February 2023 and it it took until June to make a job offer. The first time the job was posted we got one or two applications. The job ended up being reposted with some changes to the qualifications and I don't think we got even ten applications total.

[Brian Elfert]

With the development of artificial intelligence many jobs formerly requiring an advanced education may no longer need human input. Trades and arts that cannot be supplanted by robots may be the last refuge of humans that want to be productive and creative in the physical realm.

If AI takes away a lot of office jobs then tradespeople won't be far behind. Construction will grind to a halt if millions are unemployed. People will stop having remodeling done and will probably DIY things versus hiring a pro. People may also live without air conditioning if they have no money.

[Edward Weber]

If AI takes away a lot of office jobs then tradespeople won't be far behind. Construction will grind to a halt if millions are unemployed. People will stop having remodeling done and will probably DIY things versus hiring a pro. People may also live without air conditioning if they have no money.
Funny you should mention that.

These robots have been around for years but they're only getting better. This was in the news a few days back.
https://mashable.com/video/autonomous-robot-ai-construction-monumental

It'll still take a crew of people to transport load/feed, and maintain them, but they're here to stay

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If AI takes away a lot of office jobs then tradespeople won't be far behind. Construction will grind to a halt if millions are unemployed. People will stop having remodeling done and will probably DIY things versus hiring a pro. People may also live without air conditioning if they have no money.

Won't air conditioning be programed into your download from the Matrix? (trying to interject humor even though this stuff is no joke)

[Steve Demuth]

I think the situation must be, as you say, highly available across geographies. Our Northeast Iowa Community College, which serves a dozen to maybe 15 counties in the corner of the state offers diploma and certificate programs in construction trades (carpentry, concrete and masonry, plumbing), residential and industrial electrician, HVAC, machining and other factory skills, including cabinet / furniture building. They also offer programs in diesel mechanics, and farm equipment technician. Tuition is pretty darned affordable, even before financial assistance is considered. I've been pretty darned impressed with the skill quality and professionalism of their graduates in those areas, where I've encountered them.

[Mel Fulks]

Harvard has finally embraced it. They gave a big job to a woman. Now a lot a people want a big trade.

[Jerry Bruette]

I am a maintenance manager. I have millwrights, electricians, instrument techs, comm techs, machinists, and welders. Each year we go through a recruiting/hiring process to fill open positions, mostly open through attrition nowadays. The pool has dried up. I used to wade through 600+ resumes. Now, I'm lucky to see 200, and half of those are not even remotely qualified.

Try and find a machinist that can run manual machines..... Good luck. They are CNC programmers anymore.

We pay extremely well, 401K + pension, excellent benefits.

There simply are not many in trades anymore. And frankly, work ethic is a trait that seems to have evaporated. I can teach a lot of things, but I can't teach someone work ethics.

If anyone knows a good machinist that might want to work in Alaska, we will be posting for two real soon.

I hear you. My manager had asked me and one of the electricians to help interview new hires. Some of them were complete bozos and one "electrician" couldn't draw how to wire two switches in a series, claimed he didn't have to know because "there's an app for that".

CNC machines are great if you have to crank out 120 widgets an hour. Load up your bar feeders and hit the go button. But they can be slow. If you don't need their precision a 6 spindle screw machine is faster. But now you need someone who can think and knows how to set the machine up.

[Jerry Bruette]

Funny you should mention that.

These robots have been around for years but they're only getting better. This was in the news a few days back.
https://mashable.com/video/autonomous-robot-ai-construction-monumental

It'll still take a crew of people to transport load/feed, and maintain them, but they're here to stay

Lots of people watched that video and are amazed at how the robots work. I watched it and started to pick it apart and look for all the failure points, and there's more than what you think. Anyone of the photo eyes, reed switches, or proximity switches fail and you're dead in the water. Get some mortar or abrasive dust in the linear bearings and you're dead in the water. Have an air line or control wire run chafe through and it's the same outcome. A blip in the power supply and the PLC doesn't know what to do, someone will have to reset it and empty out all the conveyors and grippers because it's a robot and it can't think it only does what the program in the PLC tells it to do. We won't even talk about the vision systems.

I know they're here to stay and the controls are getting better. I know jobs are being eliminated daily but there's a long way to go. Instead of fearing them or being mad that some jobs are being eliminated people should be learning about them and training how to work with them. They can't install, program or fix themselves. Learn how to do that and you'll have a good job that pays well.

[Mel Fulks]

Too bad Sears Robucks didn’t get into ….Sears Robots. Maybe they just couldn’t stop looking at their manikin Girlikans.

[Ron Citerone]

Too bad Sears Robucks didn’t get into ….Sears Robots. Maybe they just couldn’t stop looking at their manikin Girlikans.

Stop Mel, I just spilled my coffee on the keyboard! Your killing me here! :):D

[Alan Lightstone]

Funny you should mention that.

These robots have been around for years but they're only getting better. This was in the news a few days back.
https://mashable.com/video/autonomous-robot-ai-construction-monumental

It'll still take a crew of people to transport load/feed, and maintain them, but they're here to stay
Not to hijack the thread, but actually, the electric car charging robot struck me as something that could really work in apartment buildings to partially solve the problem of not enough charging spaces, and the huge expense of outfitting multiple spaces in an apartment building with electric car chargers:
https://mashable.com/video/parky-robot-electric-vehicle-charging

[Pat Germain]

I think the whole AI thing is extremely overblown. There is certainly some potential there, but it won't be revolutionizing the workforce. Currently, it's interesting, but mostly useless. As more and more web sites are locked down to prevent data scraping, AI becomes less and less capable. I don't know about this forum, but on a Vintage Mustang forum where I participate, we often see ridiculous questions posted by a BOT. It's just some AI engine trying to scrape data for some unknown, commercial purpose.

I have worked in IT for decades. It used to be cool. Now it sucks. Cybesecurity has taken over.

[mike stenson]

I think the whole AI thing is extremely overblown. There is certainly some potential there, but it won't be revolutionizing the workforce. Currently, it's interesting, but mostly useless. As more and more web sites are locked down to prevent data scraping, AI becomes less and less capable. I don't know about this forum, but on a Vintage Mustang forum where I participate, we often see ridiculous questions posted by a BOT. It's just some AI engine trying to scrape data for some unknown, commercial purpose.

I have worked in IT for decades. It used to be cool. Now it sucks. Cybesecurity has taken over.


I've worked in development for decades. Cybersecurity is paramount, as we're actively in a cyberwarefare footing. With actual nation-state-actors in the mix.

With regards to AI, people are already using it to code their stuff. It's meh. However, support teams are rapidly deploying AI chatbots. Very rapidly. They'll start to replace 'knowledge workers' soon.

[Bill Howatt]

AI is comparatively in its infancy and it will learn and this is the basis of a lot of the concern.
I remember years ago it was stated that without the computer chip design programs the next generations of processors could not be created.

[Pat Germain]

I've worked in development for decades. Cybersecurity is paramount, as we're actively in a cyberwarefare footing. With actual nation-state-actors in the mix.

With regards to AI, people are already using it to code their stuff. It's meh. However, support teams are rapidly deploying AI chatbots. Very rapidly. They'll start to replace 'knowledge workers' soon.

Sure cybersecurity is paramount. But the people in charge aren't technical. They merely quote policy. Then, when some hackers in Bulgaria gain full access to the network and steal terabytes of data, we get more policy.

I liken AI to self-driving cars and EVs. Again, much potential, but nowhere near what was predicted any time soon.