Combination plane as Dado plane?

[Tony Wilkins]

Besides Derek, who has used the LV combination plane as a dado plane? How did you like it?

Derek, any new thoughts since your review?
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados.html

[Tom Bussey]

I have a complete Stanley 45, with all the cutters, so I have a fence to go by. I just bought a Stanley 45 last Saturday at auction for $7. It has both skates a 1/4 inch blade and all the feet. I plan on making a fence and setting it up as a plow plane to do 1/4 dados one 1/2 from the edge for drawer bottoms to fit in. I should have it ready by the time it warms up enough for me to work comfortably in my shop. I will let you know.

[Derek Cohen]

Besides Derek, who has used the LV combination plane as a dado plane? How did you like it?

Derek, any new thoughts since your review?
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados.html

Tony, the LV combination plane is excellent, however (as you may recall from the article), I also have a dedicated wooden dado plane, by HNT Gordon. No setting up needed. Even more excellent for dados.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, the LV combination plane is excellent, however (as you may recall from the article), I also have a dedicated wooden dado plane, by HNT Gordon. No setting up needed. Even more excellent for dados.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Part of the reason for the question. Wondering if I should go out and find one. So far on the few dado’s I’ve done/am doing, I’ve used saws chisels & router planes ala what CS teaches.

[Jim Koepke]

I have a complete Stanley 45, with all the cutters, so I have a fence to go by. I just bought a Stanley 45 last Saturday at auction for $7. It has both skates a 1/4 inch blade and all the feet. I plan on making a fence and setting it up as a plow plane to do 1/4 dados one 1/2 from the edge for drawer bottoms to fit in. I should have it ready by the time it warms up enough for me to work comfortably in my shop. I will let you know.

This is one of the reasons for me having acquired multiple #45s in the past.

Then an offer on a #50 that couldn't be refused came my way.

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For cutting slots for box & drawer bottoms it is much more nimble to use than a #45, even with my earlier version without a blade adjuster.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Might also be on the look-out for the Stanley No. 39 family of Dado Planes.....I currently have the one that cuts a 3/8" wide dado..anywhere, as long as it has a batten to run along

I also have a dedicated Stanley 45 to use as a dado plane, as long as the dado (drawer backs) is within the reach of it's fence..

Grooves and beads and such things go to the other 45 I have....as it can't use the spurs ( holes too wallered out for the screws to hold the spurs)

Rebates...I have both a #78 (Wards/Stanley) and a #79 (Sears #3720/Sargent) that seem to do a fairly decent job..with or across the grain.

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Stanley No. 45, Type 5....cutting a 3/4" wide dado
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Seems to do a decent enough job...I can always use the #71-1/2 to plane the floor smooth, if need be
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YMMV, Of course..

[Tom M King]

Dadoes are cross grain. Grooves are with the grain. I’ve used combination planes for grooves plenty of times, but like dedicated dado planes for dadoes. Knickers are very important for dadoes.

[David Carroll]

Dadoes are cross grain. Grooves are with the grain. I’ve used combination planes for grooves plenty of times, but like dedicated dado planes for dadoes. Knickers are very important for dadoes.

And the nicker's have to be as sharp as your marking knife. On my 45 and 46 I have to be careful to adjust the runners correctly, relative to the cutter so that I don't lift out chips along the shoulder. You also have to be really careful not to tip the plane this way or that or one edge of the cutter may want to tip outside of the nicked line and again you lift out chips. I have a set of wooden dado planes that work well if you take the time to sharpen and adjust the nickers, but I haven't found the 45 or 46 to be that good. I am probably not adjusting it right.

Honestly for a few dadoes, I just knife the lines deeeeep as I can, I chisel out a Paul Seller's knife-wall, I follow the knife mark with a fine toothed saw blade (I often use a veneer saw, but lately use a Zona 24 tpi craft saw), chisel out the waste and finish with a router plane. If I have more than say, four to do I'll drag out the heavy artillery.

DC

[Rafael Herrera]

I made a small cabinet for my niece last year.

These are test dado fits. I tried my Stanley no. 50 with unsatisfactory results, lot's of tearout on the shoulders. It's also kind of fiddly to afix a fence to register the plane for dados in the middle of the panel. I suppose I could have monkeyed with the plane, it certainly needs tuning for this kind of work, but the method below worked with what I have. See the dados on the left of the board for the torn shoulder test cuts.

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I got a clean and tight fit by marking, scoring, sawing, chiseling and finishing with a router plane. It was straightforward, it worked for me. It turned out OK on the final product.

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By marking off of the boards to be fitted, the width of the dados were matched to the boards. When using a dado plane, you'll have to ensure all your panels are dimensioned to the plane's cutter width.

[steven c newman]

Or..match the width of the cutter to the thickness of the board..

Torn shoulders is usually from either NOT using the spurs, setting the cutter too deep, or....one COULD drag the spurs backwards across the board, set the plane down to one side, take you sharp marking knife, and deepen the spur lines...Might take you...3 minutes per dado?

For Dados out in the middle of nowhere in a board...problem becomes one of balance....that is why Stanley added the Cam Rest to the kit...either center the rest, or move a bit closer to the fence side of the arms...Do NOT torgue the rest in place, ever. One, you'll need to rotate the cam after every other pass, to cut deeper, and two, adds unnecessary wear on the brass pin inside the cam rest.

BTDT....

[Rafael Herrera]

Or..match the width of the cutter to the thickness of the board..

Torn shoulders is usually from either NOT using the spurs, setting the cutter too deep, or....one COULD drag the spurs backwards across the board, set the plane down to one side, take you sharp marking knife, and deepen the spur lines...Might take you...3 minutes per dado?

For Dados out in the middle of nowhere in a board...problem becomes one of balance....that is why Stanley added the Cam Rest to the kit...either center the rest, or move a bit closer to the fence side of the arms...Do NOT torgue the rest in place, ever. One, you'll need to rotate the cam after every other pass, to cut deeper, and two, adds unnecessary wear on the brass pin inside the cam rest.

BTDT....

I rather not screw with the cutters. I imagine it'd be easier to fit the board with a few plane passes after the dado has been cut, if necessary.

I did use the spurs, sharpened them, dragged the plane backwards. I didn't deepen the spur lines. If I remember well, there was something off with the plane (a basically unused Stanley no. 50), something with the spurs and I thought that it needed some kind of fine tuning.

I don't have a 45 or a 55, those are the ones with that cam accessory, aren't they?

[David Carroll]

For Dados out in the middle of nowhere in a board...problem becomes one of balance....that is why Stanley added the Cam Rest to the kit...either center the rest, or move a bit closer to the fence side of the arms...Do NOT torgue the rest in place, ever. One, you'll need to rotate the cam after every other pass, to cut deeper, and two, adds unnecessary wear on the brass pin inside the cam rest.BTDT....

Hmmm I have a cam rest for the 45, I wonder if it would also work on the 46. To be honest, I have never looked into what the cam rest did for a living. It just rattles around in the bottom of the box. Might give it a try on the next project! Thanks!

DC

[steven c newman]

One: Spurs must be lower than the cutter, and since the spurs can not be adjusted for depth..mean the cutter needs to be set at a shallower depth

Two: IF the arms are the same diameter, yes the cam rest will work ( and you can custom make arms to any length, as long as they are the correct size

Three: Stanley made a lot of straight cutters, sized by 1/16" usually. Choose the one closest to the size dado you normally use, that way, you don't HAVE to mess with any other cutters.

Finally: spurs are meant to cut going in both directions...drag them back 3-4 times at the start, BEFORE trying to use the cutter. Only have to lift the plane's rear end enough to dis-engage the cutter..once the 3-4 passes with the spurs, THEN drop down the back end of the plane, and make the 1st pass with the cutter.

BTW: I have a habit of taking a backsaw to the spur's lines, right where the dado will exit the board,,I saw down to the depth the dado will be....all this does is prevent a "Breakout" of the edges, when the cutter makes it's exit there..makes for a cleaner exit "wound" on the edge of the board.

[Derek Cohen]

Part of the reason for the question. Wondering if I should go out and find one. So far on the few dado’s I’ve done/am doing, I’ve used saws chisels & router planes ala what CS teaches.

Hi Tony

In practice, most of the time I knife the lines (David, Sellers did not invent the practice of cutting a wall), remove most of the waste with a chisel, and level with a router plane. The reason is that I mainly make stopped dados, and a plane is not condusive for these (although it can be done). Plus, a dado does not need to be deep, and so it an be done quickly.

https://i.postimg.cc/8CVmJGb1/Apothecary-Chest-Part-Two-html-m3dd53b96.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Carroll]

...(David, Sellers did not invent the practice of cutting a wall)...Derek

Yes, Derek, I am aware he didn't invent it. But, he sometimes speaks as though he did. So my calling it a Paul Sellers knife-wall is a bit tongue in cheek.

Cheers,

DC

[Gary Focht]

Yes, Derek, I am aware he didn't invent it. But, he sometimes speaks as though he did. So my calling it a Paul Sellers knife-wall is a bit tongue in cheek.

Cheers,

DC

Sellers freely admits he did not invent it the practice, but he does take credit for the term “knife-wall”.

[Derek Cohen]

Just irks me that he has to say this every time. He does claim a lot. All aimed at his choir.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Sellers freely admits he did not invent it the practice, but he does take credit for the term “knife-wall”.


Just irks me that he has to say this every time. He does claim a lot. All aimed at his choir.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Having found many of Mr. Sellers' claims to be dubious, it is my pleasure to not be irked by him. This is accomplished in a most enjoyable way, by ignoring him.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Sellers Bashing? And it has what to do with the OP's Question?


BTW: since we are WAY of topic...L/N is having a Meet & Greet down at this place..
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Today and tomorrow, I think...Hmmmm..

[Jim Koepke]

Sellers Bashing? And it has what to do with the OP's Question?

A method of creating a dado was mentioned along with a person who lays claim to certain aspects of the method.

Comments, corrections and opinions ensued.

Some may see it as an exposé, others will see it as bashing.

Google has changed some over the years. It appears even with a vast number of hits on a search it isn't possible to see multiple pages of the results. There is likely a way, it just isn't apparent to me at this time.

This was one comment found in a search with over 10,000,000 hits >


The technique has been around for a very long time, and the name "knifewall" was popularized by Paul Sellers, a proponent of the technique.

Another shows it mentioned on a TV program as far back as 1965.

That is when it was decided to stop looking. It became apparent the knitting of these two words together has served many meanings over many years.

It is like so many things in woodworking done by people centuries ago, when someone from current times does it they are awarded the mantle of discovery or being associated with the process.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Not the first time Paul Sellers has been the subject of conversation.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220222-Paul-Sellers

Warning, a long thread.

[Derek Cohen]

Having found many of Mr. Sellers' claims to be dubious, it is my pleasure to not be irked by him. This is accomplished in a most enjoyable way, by ignoring him.

jtk

Jim, in my opinion Sellers is an excellent teacher. For example, he is clear in his explanation and demonstration of how a joint or construction is made. For this reason, I will watch his videos, with the willingness to learn from him. However ... I find his patter and spiel strongly narcissistic. He is not only constantly blowing his own trumpet, but he will negate anyone who disagrees with him. His sermons are long-winded, presenting his philosophy to save mankind. It stops being about woodworking, and morphs into religion.

To link to the original question about dado planes, for me, the joys in joinery - and here creating a dado - can come from the result of my hand skills, the pleasure of using a beautiful tool, the satisfaction of using minimal tools, or the knowledge that I can do it in several different ways. There is no single, perfect method. Determine what works best for the moment, or just have fun exploring something of interest.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, in my opinion Sellers is an excellent teacher. For example, he is clear in his explanation and demonstration of how a joint or construction is made. For this reason, I will watch his videos, with the willingness to learn from him. However ... I find his patter and spiel strongly narcissistic. He is not only constantly blowing his own trumpet, but he will negate anyone who disagrees with him. His sermons are long-winded, presenting his philosophy to save mankind. It stops being about woodworking, and morphs into religion.

To link to the original question about dado planes, for me, the joys in joinery - and here creating a dado - can come from the result of my hand skills, the pleasure of using a beautiful tool, the satisfaction of using minimal tools, or the knowledge that I can do it in several different ways. There is no single, perfect method. Determine what works best for the moment, or just have fun exploring something of interest.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Agreed.

In my opinion there are enough "excellent teachers" available. So, there isn't any reason to not ignore one in order to learn from one more to my personal liking.

It may have been the final straw for me years ago when my question was ridiculed by a Sellers' fan who insisted the master should never be questioned about why something is done only one way.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Still doing the "Bash"? So...Dados with a ...what?

[David Carroll]

I also like Sellers to a point. For someone who is just starting out he does tend to aim much of his instruction at beginners, without a lot of tools. So he focuses on beginner-level projects that can be done with a couple of saws, a No. 4 plane, hardware store chisels, a combination square, a small utility knife, and a few others. I appreciate that, (despite owning enough tools to start a small school myself), and I often recommend his videos to newbies who ask. I like the little dovetail marking block he made, and made one for myself.

But, as Derek pointed out, he does get a bit preachy and seems to equate "making" (I dislike that term) with divinity. While from one point of view, I can see his point, however, creativity--for it's own sake--is a very human trait. But I like to think my own thoughts about such things, and his constant sermonizing, particularly in his blog posts doesn't resonate with me at all, rather I lose interest in what point he is trying to make.

His narcissism, I can deal with. He's very proud of his accomplishments and crows a bit too much "to his choir" (I might have used the term "echo chamber), and if you do question him about something, as Jim pointed out, he and his "Seller-dwellers" (I just made that up) are quick to snippy replies, bordering on bullying. But recent converts and acolytes are often given to strong opinions and fierce loyalties to their masters.

But all-in-all, I think he has been a positive force in keeping hand-tool woodworking alive, and I appreciate that.

JMHO

DC

[steven c newman]

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I did down load a set of FREE Plans from his Masterclass Series..
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Followed both the plans and the 6 part video...

And it came out as nice as can be..
I take everything I read on the internet ( including here) with a 1 pound grain of salt. And constant bashing of fellow woodworkers does get a bit BORING, like when people go off topic to get in a "Jolly Good Bash"....

Dados? Anyone?

[Jim Koepke]

Still doing the "Bash"? So...Dados with a ...what?

This is almost funny coming from one who is so often "doing the "Bash"" on those who recommend quality tools from a company supporting this site with paid advertisements.

If expressing why I do not frequent Mr. Sellers' site is bashing, then call me guilty. My main reason for no longer visiting his internet presence is having felt like I was being bashed by his fans for asking a simple question.

As others have mentioned, preachiness and a narcissistic personality can turn some away. Others will become devoted foollowers and rabid defenders. My preference is someone like Charles Neil. He demonstrates how something is done and also can spin a nice folksy tale in the process.

Rex Krueger is also a good teacher who isn't trying to sell tools or make people feel guilty for having "the wrong tools," too many tools or too few tools.

There are many others who also do not ridicule those who ask why something is done in such a way or do not insist that their way is the best or only way.

As for dados, I like mine stopped, here they are with a saw & chisel > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208154

Here with a dado plane > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278928

Here is another thread with dado planes making dados > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278860

There are a couple of wooden dado planes in my shop, maybe someday a post with those can be done. So much to do, so little time.

Finally here is doing stopped cuts with a Stanley #45 > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242089

jtk

[steven c newman]

Look in the mirror...

Same two people always either bring in the fellow's name on about every other topic...

Seems sometimes, those that say "this is the best tool for a Job" seem to be trying to get someone to BUY that tool.

Dados:
Stanley No. 45, Type 5
Stanley No. 39, 3/8" for narrow stuff
Disston No. 4 ,14", 9ppi Backsaw, then the chisel to remove 99% of the waste, then the Stanley No. 71-1/2 to "plane" the floor of the Dado

Finally, Have a Router Guide to guide a Craftsman Router with the size straight bit needed...used for WIDE panels....bit can sometimes be a dovetail bit, as well

Afraid my 160+ yr old wooden Plough plane can only do grooves...fence gets in the way, no nickers..

YMMV, of course...
So.....how does all this HELP the OP?

BTW, in that Sellers plan I posted...it needs 2 stopped dados...to house a center divider.....but, there is NO such dado in the ends of the lid. Or, did you miss that tiny detail, while chewing me out?
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[Jim Koepke]

BTW, in that Sellers plan I posted...it needs 2 stopped dados...to house a center divider.....but, there is NO such dado in the ends of the lid. Or, did you miss that tiny detail, while chewing me out?
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I do not recall having seen that post. Probably busy doing something else.

Is saying I like my dados stopped "chewing you out"?

Try walking outside without a jacket, maybe the cold air will thicken your skin.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Combination plane as a dado plane...isn't that one of the "7 planes in 1" that Stanley said about their No. 45? Hmmm

I am a wee bit GRUMPY tonight...the Household is all down sick, the main camera I was using has died...still learning the How-tos of the phone's camera....so..the fuse is a bit on the short side....

" The world is full of Kings and Queens, who blind your eyes, and steal you dreams.." RJD..

[Jim Koepke]

Combination plane as a dado plane...isn't that one of the "7 planes in 1" that Stanley said about their No. 45? Hmmm

I am a wee bit GRUMPY tonight...the Household is all down sick, the main camera I was using has died...still learning the How-tos of the phone's camera....so..the fuse is a bit on the short side....

" The world is full of Kings and Queens, who blind your eyes, and steal you dreams.." RJD..

The OP asked about the LV Combination Plane:


Besides Derek, who has used the LV combination plane as a dado plane? How did you like it?

I've never used one to evaluate. I would hope it is better than a Stanley #45.

Yes, among the functions Stanley listed for the #45, cutting dados was included. A post of mine from a little over 14 years ago also mentions the same:

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The #45 can cut dados. It does not cut them as well as a dedicated dado plane. If one wants to make utility shelving, a #45 would work okay. If one is interested in joinery with clean edges, my suggestion would be to find another way to cut dados than a with Stanley #45 or any of the other combination planes from other makers. If one is not careful, even a dedicated dado plane like a #39 or a combination plane like the #46 could cause chipped edges on a dado. For me, it is faster to saw and chop than it is to set up a baton for a plane. This is especially true for stopped dados.

Having not used the modern combination plane from LV, my thoughts on it would merely be speculation with their only basis being improvements made in the fields of metallurgy and machining.

Sorry for your travails of misfortune. I've been dealing with a few myself, just remember: Illegitimi non carborundum.

jtk