Thoughts on SCM FS 41ES vs Felder AD941 vs Separate Jointer/Planer

[Josh Baldwin]

Hey guys so I currently have a Hammer A3-41 Jointer/Planer combo. It's 16" wide and about 70" long. It works well, but it's not as long or as flat as I would like, but good enough so far.

I'm thinking of making an upgrade. I specifically want more length and just a higher quality machine overall. I was thinking about the Felder, but Sam Blasco made a pretty damn good case for the SCM instead.

My biggest question on these is if I have the space (which I'm not sure I do), are there any separate units that would be a better choice? The combos are both about $13k. It seems like the nice/long jointers out there Laguna/Powermatic are all made in China and cost about $10k, then a similar level planer would be about $4k. So I'm just curious if anyone has any recommendations on what they would do if money/space wasn't a huge problem. I'm not saying it isn't, because I'm definitely stretching my budget BIG time to make this work. But I just want to make a smart decision for probably the final jointer/planer I'll ever buy.

Thanks

[John TenEyck]

If you have the space, separate machines are the way to go. You can get long bed jointers that you will never find in a combo unit. Tables over 100" long, which translates into being able to easily run a straight edge on something over 12 ft long. That should meet most anyone's needs. And you may find that a 12" jointer is plenty if you have a 20" planer.

John

[Aaron Inami]

If you are looking at a combo jointer/planer, the general consensus is that Minimax is recommended. The Felder combo jointer/planers have a slew of problems and challenges. This is even discussed over on the Felder Owners Group (where we generally like Felder! lol). If you want separate jointer/planer machines, only the Felder A951L or the Format4 plan 51L should be considered as they do not have the compromised table lift geometry or adjustment issues. However, I believe they still do have their problems. If you want a good dedicated jointer, go for SCM/Minimax or a Jet/Powermatic/Laguna/Oliver etc. A new 12" jointer is $7-9k. You can actually get an Oliver 16" jointer for $9k even.

[Michael Burnside]

I'm just a serious hobbyist and initially I thought I wanted the A3-41 until I used one. I just didn't like how short it was. I wasn't a huge fan of "combo" and going back and forth, but I was fine with the idea. In the end, I went with a Powermatic PJ-882HHT with 82" wings and I freak'n love it. It is such a beautiful machine. Running 6-8' boards is so, so easy and smooth. I also have a separate 15HH planer since, like you, I have space to spare. I just like having the two machines and 8" is plenty for me. I like Powermatic, but if it bothers you, go Felder or SCM or Oliver or Laguna. It's your money after all!

[Jim Becker]

If you have the space, keep the current jointer/thicknesser for the latter and get an "aircraft carrier" jointer. If you want to stay with a combo, the SCM is a mighty fine machine and you can't go wrong working with Sam.

Also think about how often you really need a long jointer bed. I have found over the years that with good planning, I very rarely have to flatten anything longer than 5-6'. It's rare for me to have a project that requires that. But what I make may not be what you make.

[Warren Lake]

set up temp infeed and outfeed support. You can joint any length you want if you have feel and support on in and out.

[Ned Otter]

I had to make this decision a few years ago - my shop is long, but narrow (just under 12 feet), and I opted for separate machines for jointer/planer (both SCM). I got 16" width in each, and I wanted to be able to handle long pieces up to 8 feet in length (wife likes to garden...)

Have not regretted my decision; it is highly likely these will be the last machines I purchase, and was tired of the yellow stuff.

Feel free to DM me if you need specifics

Ned

[roger wiegand]

Not sure if it's a fair comparison, but I upgraded from separate jointer and planer (6" and ~13" respectively, relatively heavy duty delta machines) to a FS41ES. It's like having died and gone to heaven. It also takes up less floor space in my shop and made for a more efficient layout since I only need standing access from one side now (I had them back to side before so they used ~the same clear space for board clearance). I thought the changeovers would be a PITA, but in retrospect they are not so bad. Sure in an ideal world I'd have separates. SCM could make the changeover process a lot easier by adding a preset stop so you could lower the planer table with a single button push rather than having to stand there and hold the button down.

I'm astonished at the accuracy and the finish quality of the cuts. I've even started trusting the machine to the point where I don't leave an extra several inches on the boards for snipe-- it just doesn't happen. I've been dimensioning organ pipe parts for the last several months, the desired accuracy is a couple tenths of a mm. The planer consistently delivers that; with this machine I just dial it into the DRO and the machine delivers, with a cut quality that is good enough to glue straight away without distorting the piece by sanding or planing.

I can't offer comparisons among high end machines but I have zero regrets about making this swap!

[Brian Holcombe]

I have an FS41ES, I’m pretty happy with it. It’s far more reliable in terms of quality result than many of the budget minded separates. If you can budget for similar quality machines then in that case I would do separates.

[Josh Baldwin]

If you have the space, separate machines are the way to go. You can get long bed jointers that you will never find in a combo unit. Tables over 100" long, which translates into being able to easily run a straight edge on something over 12 ft long. That should meet most anyone's needs. And you may find that a 12" jointer is plenty if you have a 20" planer.

John

Yea I definitely can't go back down to 12" now that I have 16"! Ha. I do like the idea of separates even though it would be tight, but I'm just worried about the quality of those machines (Laguna/Powermatic) since they're all made in China and I can't seem to find any reviews at all of their larger ones.

[Josh Baldwin]

If you are looking at a combo jointer/planer, the general consensus is that Minimax is recommended. The Felder combo jointer/planers have a slew of problems and challenges. This is even discussed over on the Felder Owners Group (where we generally like Felder! lol). If you want separate jointer/planer machines, only the Felder A951L or the Format4 plan 51L should be considered as they do not have the compromised table lift geometry or adjustment issues. However, I believe they still do have their problems. If you want a good dedicated jointer, go for SCM/Minimax or a Jet/Powermatic/Laguna/Oliver etc. A new 12" jointer is $7-9k. You can actually get an Oliver 16" jointer for $9k even.

Yea I agree it seems like the SCM is the way to go. Unfortunately I'm not sure the pricing on the stand alone SCM jointers/planers makes a lot of sense vs the combo. Do you have any experience with the Oliver jointers? I can't seem to find any reviews of these newer ones and I'm just worried about the quality since they're made in China.

[Josh Baldwin]

If you have the space, keep the current jointer/thicknesser for the latter and get an "aircraft carrier" jointer. If you want to stay with a combo, the SCM is a mighty fine machine and you can't go wrong working with Sam.

Also think about how often you really need a long jointer bed. I have found over the years that with good planning, I very rarely have to flatten anything longer than 5-6'. It's rare for me to have a project that requires that. But what I make may not be what you make.

Yea it's not often I need over 7', but there are times where it's a bit annoying. I just kind of want a higher quality machine in general. I think right now if I do decide to upgrade that the SCM is probably the way to go. I was just hoping to hear from someone who maybe has the 16" Oliver or Powermatic to ask about quality control/flatness, etc.

[Josh Baldwin]

I had to make this decision a few years ago - my shop is long, but narrow (just under 12 feet), and I opted for separate machines for jointer/planer (both SCM). I got 16" width in each, and I wanted to be able to handle long pieces up to 8 feet in length (wife likes to garden...)

Have not regretted my decision; it is highly likely these will be the last machines I purchase, and was tired of the yellow stuff.

Feel free to DM me if you need specifics

Ned

Yea if I go with separates I'm not sure I can justify the pricing on the SCM stuff. It seems like it would be over $20k at that point, which just can't happen right now.

[Josh Baldwin]

Not sure if it's a fair comparison, but I upgraded from separate jointer and planer (6" and ~13" respectively, relatively heavy duty delta machines) to a FS41ES. It's like having died and gone to heaven. It also takes up less floor space in my shop and made for a more efficient layout since I only need standing access from one side now (I had them back to side before so they used ~the same clear space for board clearance). I thought the changeovers would be a PITA, but in retrospect they are not so bad. Sure in an ideal world I'd have separates. SCM could make the changeover process a lot easier by adding a preset stop so you could lower the planer table with a single button push rather than having to stand there and hold the button down.

I'm astonished at the accuracy and the finish quality of the cuts. I've even started trusting the machine to the point where I don't leave an extra several inches on the boards for snipe-- it just doesn't happen. I've been dimensioning organ pipe parts for the last several months, the desired accuracy is a couple tenths of a mm. The planer consistently delivers that; with this machine I just dial it into the DRO and the machine delivers, with a cut quality that is good enough to glue straight away without distorting the piece by sanding or planing.

I can't offer comparisons among high end machines but I have zero regrets about making this swap!

Good to know. It seems like everyone really loves their FS41ES machines. Did you go single phase or 3 phase? I'm wondering if I should just use a phase converter, but I don't know a lot about them to be honest.

[Josh Baldwin]

I have an FS41ES, I’m pretty happy with it. It’s far more reliable in terms of quality result than many of the budget minded separates. If you can budget for similar quality machines then in that case I would do separates.

Did you go with the 3 phase or single phase machine? Thanks

[Brian Holcombe]

Josh, in another shop I use those type of machines for a class I run. They’re ok but they tend to snipe often and lose their settings fairly often if you use them hard.

[Josh Baldwin]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone. So if I did go with the SCM I like the idea of the $300 cheaper price and more power (8hp vs 4.8hp) of the 3 phase motor. Does anyone have recommendations for a phase converter? There seem to be a lot of different ones out there, so would appreciate any insight on the subject.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have two from American Rotary, they do the job but are a budget minded product. I’ve had one running for 6-7 years and the other for 2-3 years without issue.

A lot of folks like Phase perfect, if it’s within your budget I would definitely go with phase perfect.

The ratings on most Rotary phase converters are such that the motor you need on it is at least double that of what your running, but you can run multiple machines up to that same HP rating. So in your case, probably a 20HP unit would be the route to take.

The SCM 3ph unit had digital controls and electronic raise and lower, I can say from not having those items that I would absolutely love to have them. Kneeling down to raise and lower multiple times per day gets old.

[Aaron Inami]

The recommendation is to go to SCM/Minimax if you want a combo jointer/planer. It is my opinion that they make the best solution in the industry.

If you are going separates, you can get very excellent machines with other vendors at a good price point. You don't necessarily have to go to the SCM/Felder price level. Also, a lot of machinery is being made in Taiwan now. Most of the Grizzly machines that I look into are actually made in Taiwan. The Oliver 16" jointer is made in Taiwan. Based on what I have read, people who have bought Olivers are happy with their product. It seems like a well engineered product that is usually a bit heavier duty than other vendors. Definitely better than Grizzly.

Here's a thread on someone who got the Oliver planer:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?302426-Oliver-machinery

Jay Bates talks about his Oliver jointer and planer here at the 18 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwT3CjtCVC0&t=1080s

I'm not trying to push Oliver here, just giving some info on other people's experiences.

Powermatic used to be the top level traditional machines. However, in the last 4-5 years they have dropped radically in level of quality and support. I'm not saying that you'll get a bad machine, but if you do, the support you get from Powermatic may be a fight. It might be better to buy from Woodcraft and then just do a return if it arrives as a problem.

Grizzly, on the other hand, appears to have excellent support on their product, such as sending out replacement parts (if available) on anything that arrived broken or problematic.

I will say that the FS41ES is on my list as the next big purchase (hopefully within a couple years).

3-phase is generally recommended because the motors run smoother and quieter. You don't have to deal with replacing motor start/run capacitors. But the cost of implementing 3-phase can be too high for the return-on-investment. It's a personal preference. If you just want to throw in a rotary phase converter that plugs into a 60A outlet, that's a low cost solution for sure.

[Alan Lightstone]

My own personal experience was selling my Laguna combo machine (which really was terrible) to Felder separates. I love them. Much higher quality. I have the A941 jointer, and the D951 Planer. I love the digital electronics (Power-Drive and Digi-Drive) on the planer, though I have had a few issues with them that tech support eventually solved. In theory it's maximum thicknessing width is 510mm (20"). Snipe is non-existent with it. Maximum width is 16" with the jointer. The few times I needed more, with the planer and a wide-belt I just took a different path.

I haven't really had the need for longer tables on the jointer. And the few times I did, I just used roller supports on both ends. Easy-peesy.

And I would definitely suggest going with three-phase power. I have a Phase Perfect and after installation haven't thought about it once. It just works. And better with the digital electronics of a number of my machines. Don't know if this is in your price range, but works great for me.

[Josh Baldwin]

The recommendation is to go to SCM/Minimax if you want a combo jointer/planer. It is my opinion that they make the best solution in the industry.

If you are going separates, you can get very excellent machines with other vendors at a good price point. You don't necessarily have to go to the SCM/Felder price level. Also, a lot of machinery is being made in Taiwan now. Most of the Grizzly machines that I look into are actually made in Taiwan. The Oliver 16" jointer is made in Taiwan. Based on what I have read, people who have bought Olivers are happy with their product. It seems like a well engineered product that is usually a bit heavier duty than other vendors. Definitely better than Grizzly.

Here's a thread on someone who got the Oliver planer:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?302426-Oliver-machinery

Jay Bates talks about his Oliver jointer and planer here at the 18 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwT3CjtCVC0&t=1080s

I'm not trying to push Oliver here, just giving some info on other people's experiences.

Powermatic used to be the top level traditional machines. However, in the last 4-5 years they have dropped radically in level of quality and support. I'm not saying that you'll get a bad machine, but if you do, the support you get from Powermatic may be a fight. It might be better to buy from Woodcraft and then just do a return if it arrives as a problem.

Grizzly, on the other hand, appears to have excellent support on their product, such as sending out replacement parts (if available) on anything that arrived broken or problematic.

I will say that the FS41ES is on my list as the next big purchase (hopefully within a couple years).

3-phase is generally recommended because the motors run smoother and quieter. You don't have to deal with replacing motor start/run capacitors. But the cost of implementing 3-phase can be too high for the return-on-investment. It's a personal preference. If you just want to throw in a rotary phase converter that plugs into a 60A outlet, that's a low cost solution for sure.

Hey Aaron thanks for all the info. Ok I'll look into that Oliver jointer some more, it does look nice. Yea I really wanted the 3 phase option, but man I didn't realize how expensive the phase converters are. It seems like that would cost me almost $2000. In that case I'll probably just have to stick with single phase, but we'll see.

[Mike Rambour]

I had an old Hitachi combo for decades and it worked great. One of the great features was the jointer was off to the side and you could joint and plane without touching settings. When it was time to upgrade all I could find for combo units were unfold this, slide that over and plane, then fold that back and joint, messing up settings from one step to the other. I went with separate units, got the powermatic 8 parallelogram with helical head and 15" planer, wish I had done it years ago.

[Christopher Charles]

If in your position I might consider keeping the Hammer for jointing and getting a stand alone planer (or vice versa as Jim suggested).

I looked hard at a 3-phase SCM but the cost of converters (rotary, phase perfect, or VFDs) were all $1-2K plus additional noise and steps. Would recommend sticking to 1-phase if you are buying new (this was also Sam B.'s recommendation).

Good luck.

[Jim Becker]

Yea it's not often I need over 7', but there are times where it's a bit annoying. I just kind of want a higher quality machine in general. I think right now if I do decide to upgrade that the SCM is probably the way to go. I was just hoping to hear from someone who maybe has the 16" Oliver or Powermatic to ask about quality control/flatness, etc.
Andy Rawls is using the big Oliver jointer and I believe that Cam at Blacktail Studios also bought one. Andy has spoken well of that beast in his videos and while he does make a few shekels on YouTube content, he's producing some truly beautiful work out of his shop and out of hard stuff like Pecan, too. His shop has several older Oliver tools (some with written provenance from the parts supplier he deals with) so when the opportunity to get the big blue jointer came along...it became an important part of his shop. Now that's only one guy, but it's a guy who's making the machine work for a living. Edit...I forgot Jay Bates as mentioned above.

That said, I really like the combo format...for how I work. For jointing, it's primarily only faces because after boards are flat and thicknessed, I do the edges on the slider rather than return to the jointer. So one tool's worth of space does what I need personally. I think separates are a better thing for shops that can support them, but the "big stuff" is pretty expensive. I see folks buying combos just to get a wide jointer for a decent price while still using monster thicknessers for that function. The market kinda forces that because big, dedicated "aircraft carrier" jointers bring a big price tag, often more than a really nice combo, unless you can find a usable old iron solution floating around.

[Warren Lake]

Get your info from someone who doesnt sell something. The cost of the roto pays for itself in savings on the first used machine. Everything after that becomes a huge saving.

[roger wiegand]

Good to know. It seems like everyone really loves their FS41ES machines. Did you go single phase or 3 phase? I'm wondering if I should just use a phase converter, but I don't know a lot about them to be honest.

3 phase; I bought it used at a price that made the decision to add a RPC easy. The RPC I got is from American Rotary, came with a 20 HP Baldor motor. They were very helpful in spec'ing the right product. It has worked well for about four years now. The RPC makes a really annoying hum, the only downside to this whole setup. It would really bug me if I had to leave it on all the time. If a Phase Perfect is quiet that would be a compelling argument to spend the extra $$.

[Aaron Inami]

Phase Perfect makes a different type of noise. It is an electrical buzzing with a lot of different high frequency noise. It is very annoying to many people. This video shows the old generation noise compared to new generation noise on the Phase Perfect units:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RBh59Qud94

It's best if either type of phase converter is stored in a separate room. The Phase Perfect has models that can be mounted outside, but be aware of max temperature restrictions of each model.

[Warren Lake]

ones ive had were not that loud. Some motors are huge older style. Makes total sense there is a noise its a metal speaker cabinet with stuff in it is attached to a motor with no of damping or insulating the metal. Lining with duc seal should make a huge difference. Even vibration feet under it all that makes sense. Ive not looked close in a while. I think there was a wood block between the motor and metal but maybe remembering wrong. Just remember at quick look there were several ways to make them quieter.

[Josh Baldwin]

Andy Rawls is using the big Oliver jointer and I believe that Cam at Blacktail Studios also bought one. Andy has spoken well of that beast in his videos and while he does make a few shekels on YouTube content, he's producing some truly beautiful work out of his shop and out of hard stuff like Pecan, too. His shop has several older Oliver tools (some with written provenance from the parts supplier he deals with) so when the opportunity to get the big blue jointer came along...it became an important part of his shop. Now that's only one guy, but it's a guy who's making the machine work for a living. Edit...I forgot Jay Bates as mentioned above.

That said, I really like the combo format...for how I work. For jointing, it's primarily only faces because after boards are flat and thicknessed, I do the edges on the slider rather than return to the jointer. So one tool's worth of space does what I need personally. I think separates are a better thing for shops that can support them, but the "big stuff" is pretty expensive. I see folks buying combos just to get a wide jointer for a decent price while still using monster thicknessers for that function. The market kinda forces that because big, dedicated "aircraft carrier" jointers bring a big price tag, often more than a really nice combo, unless you can find a usable old iron solution floating around.

Hey Jim thanks for the info. Yea I definitely get that, which is why I bought the Hammer in the first place. It was a much better deal than the others. But at this point I'm just thinking that I want nicer stuff. If I can wait for a sale on the Oliver I'm pretty sure I can get the jointer and planer for $12k vs $14.5k for the SCM combo, which appears to be the best price I can get on it. All of a sudden for me it doesn't seem like such a great deal anymore. But who knows I'll have to wait and see what I find. I'm definitely only buying new though. I'm not a tinkerer and have no interest in messing with old tools.