Anyone have experience with Felder Pneumatic Hold Down Clamps?

[Josh Baldwin]

Hey guys I'm awaiting the arrival of my Felder K500s sliding table saw and I was looking for clamping solutions.

I already have a Fritz and Franz jig and I was going to just buy 2 of the large Kreg hold down clamps. But I was thinking it might be worth the money for the pneumatic clamps. The Mac clamps are great looking but unfortunately just too much money for me right now and the Felder ones are half that price.

I was hoping to hear from anyone that has used the Felder pneumatic clamps to see if they're any good.

Thanks

[Josh Baldwin]

Does anyone that hasn't used these clamps maybe know about these types of pneumatic tools? Like are you able to tell the difference in how these would perform vs the Mac models? Here are the links for both:

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/pneumatic-clamps-sc123933/pneumatic-clamps-with-4000mm-spiral-hose-sp123936

https://www.airtightclamps.com/

[John Pendery]

Hey Josh, I don’t have any experience with the Felder clamps, but have Mac’s airtight clamps. The price tag is a bit steep, but if you use them frequently they are more than worth it. They are incredibly well made, easy to adjust, and have stood up to pretty heavy use for the last couple of years. I would be interested to hear from folks who have used both.

[Josh Baldwin]

Hey Josh, I don’t have any experience with the Felder clamps, but have Mac’s airtight clamps. The price tag is a bit steep, but if you use them frequently they are more than worth it. They are incredibly well made, easy to adjust, and have stood up to pretty heavy use for the last couple of years. I would be interested to hear from folks who have used both.

Hey John thanks for the info. Can you tell any downsides by looking at the Felder clamps? I'm just not even sure exactly what I'm looking at as far as differences. I asked Mac to tell me why his are better but didn't get a response, which was disappointing.

[Aaron Inami]

I can see a few differences. The Mac air clamps support system can be adjusted forward/back and up/down. There's even a swivel head type mount that allows for complex clamping scenarios. The Felder clamps are fixed, but you can rotate the base around (not as adjustable or flexible though). Felder clamps are also limited to a 3-3/4" material height.

The piston geometry on the Mac clamps are at a slight angle. This means that the forward clamp will naturally try to pull the material back against the cross-cut fence. The rear clamp will naturally try to push the material forward against the cross-cut fence. The Felder clamps appear to come straight down in a perfect vertical line.

The Mac clamps allow you to activate/deactivate the clamps from either the front clamp switch or the rear clamp switch. The Felder clamps can only be activated using the front clamp. However, a wireless remote model can be had for about $700 more.

Mac's clamp design allows for the compressed air tube to be run inside the sliding table and fed from a roller on the front chassis. The Felder clamps will have the compressed air tubes hung in air (but I'm sure you could run it inside the slider.

[Josh Baldwin]

I can see a few differences. The Mac air clamps support system can be adjusted forward/back and up/down. There's even a swivel head type mount that allows for complex clamping scenarios. The Felder clamps are fixed, but you can rotate the base around (not as adjustable or flexible though). Felder clamps are also limited to a 3-3/4" material height.

The piston geometry on the Mac clamps are at a slight angle. This means that the forward clamp will naturally try to pull the material back against the cross-cut fence. The rear clamp will naturally try to push the material forward against the cross-cut fence. The Felder clamps appear to come straight down in a perfect vertical line.

The Mac clamps allow you to activate/deactivate the clamps from either the front clamp switch or the rear clamp switch. The Felder clamps can only be activated using the front clamp. However, a wireless remote model can be had for about $700 more.

Mac's clamp design allows for the compressed air tube to be run inside the sliding table and fed from a roller on the front chassis. The Felder clamps will have the compressed air tubes hung in air (but I'm sure you could run it inside the slider.

Hey Aaron thanks for all the info man, it's a huge help. Sounds like the Mac air clamps might be a bit better. Do you think it's worth it from $1800 for the Felders vs $3500 for the Mac clamps? Just seems like so much money for clamps.

[Aaron Inami]

That's not to say that the Felder pneumatic clamps are a bad product. I'm sure they are a good quality item, just limited. Also, you can look at Mac Airclamps as a "one man shop". The price is relative to his cost for design, manufacturing, distribution, and a whole lot of customer support. It's very different for Felder, which is a corporation with a world wide set of commercial customers. I suspect that a very large percentage of Felder's commercial customers will never know that Mac's Airclamps actually exist.

Ultimately, it's really up to you on how much the difference is actually worth and if you have a desire/budget to go that far.

[John Pendery]

Josh, I think Aaron did a great job of pointing out differences between the two, and I will wholeheartedly agree that either system is a lot of money! One more thing I will add is that Mac’s airtight clamps are pretty easy to adapt to use on multiple machines with either a T slot or a 30mm post. I happen to use my clamps on a bolt on shaper tenoning table that doesn’t have a T slot, and on another saw with a 30mm vertical post, so they pull double/triple duty. Looks like the Felder clamps might only be easy to adapt to machines with a sliding table T slot, but hard to say from just pictures and videos. It would be nice to have dedicated clamping setups at every machine, but I haven’t been able to justify the price tag yet, and the extra minute it takes to move a clamp doesn’t bother me too much. At the end of the day I think either option will get the job done by adding a whole lot of convenience and even increase margins of safety in the shop. I think you’ll have a great setup whichever direction you go

[Bryan Hunt]

I also have the Airtight clamps from Mac. I use them all the time on my Hammer K4 slider. They were expensive, but they are built like a tank and worth every penny.

[Josh Baldwin]

That's not to say that the Felder pneumatic clamps are a bad product. I'm sure they are a good quality item, just limited. Also, you can look at Mac Airclamps as a "one man shop". The price is relative to his cost for design, manufacturing, distribution, and a whole lot of customer support. It's very different for Felder, which is a corporation with a world wide set of commercial customers. I suspect that a very large percentage of Felder's commercial customers will never know that Mac's Airclamps actually exist.

Ultimately, it's really up to you on how much the difference is actually worth and if you have a desire/budget to go that far.

Yea I totally get that. I've been self employed for 20 years. However, it's very easy for me to "sell" myself as a premium product worth the extra money. To me if you can't explain why your product is double the price of a similar product then it's hard for me to want to spend that much. But we'll see if he responds back to my email. I still may go that route thanks to your explanation, but just wish I could find someone who has the Felder clamps.

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh, I think Aaron did a great job of pointing out differences between the two, and I will wholeheartedly agree that either system is a lot of money! One more thing I will add is that Mac’s airtight clamps are pretty easy to adapt to use on multiple machines with either a T slot or a 30mm post. I happen to use my clamps on a bolt on shaper tenoning table that doesn’t have a T slot, and on another saw with a 30mm vertical post, so they pull double/triple duty. Looks like the Felder clamps might only be easy to adapt to machines with a sliding table T slot, but hard to say from just pictures and videos. It would be nice to have dedicated clamping setups at every machine, but I haven’t been able to justify the price tag yet, and the extra minute it takes to move a clamp doesn’t bother me too much. At the end of the day I think either option will get the job done by adding a whole lot of convenience and even increase margins of safety in the shop. I think you’ll have a great setup whichever direction you go

Yea I tend to agree that I'm sure either option works well. I guess I'll just have to decide if it's worth double the price. I'm not sure I'd use them on any other machines off the top of my head, but that's definitely something to consider. Appreciate the feedback.

[Bill Dufour]

I would guess the Felder clamps are just rebranded from another maker?
Bill D

[Chris Parks]

My advice is to use the saw for a while and then decide if clamps are needed at all for the work you are doing. The F&F jig is a very versatile clamping system and is all that I use, it costs about $2 to make one and at that price they can be considered consumable. The biggest issue for anyone going from a cabinet saw to a slider is trying to forget everything about how they used a table saw and developing the new techniques needed to use a slider. Have a look at these videos, some very advanced techniques are used including Sam's video where he shows the problems some clamps have. Just because a TS needs good clamping methods to prevent finger/hand contact with the blade does not mean that a lot of expensive clamping systems are needed for the same reason on a slider as your hands are nowhere near the blade and any clamping can usually be done with the F&F jig anyway.



(1) Sam Blasco - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@SamBlasco)

(1) ExtremeWoodworker - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@extremewoodworker)

[Josh Baldwin]

My advice is to use the saw for a while and then decide if clamps are needed at all for the work you are doing. The F&F jig is a very versatile clamping system and is all that I use, it costs about $2 to make one and at that price they can be considered consumable. The biggest issue for anyone going from a cabinet saw to a slider is trying to forget everything about how they used a table saw and developing the new techniques needed to use a slider. Have a look at these videos, some very advanced techniques are used including Sam's video where he shows the problems some clamps have. Just because a TS needs good clamping methods to prevent finger/hand contact with the blade does not mean that a lot of expensive clamping systems are needed for the same reason on a slider as your hands are nowhere near the blade and any clamping can usually be done with the F&F jig anyway.



(1) Sam Blasco - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@SamBlasco)

(1) ExtremeWoodworker - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@extremewoodworker)


Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha

[Brian Gouldman]

I have a Hammer B3 and use a combination of Fritz and Franz jig, and I use 2 6” Kreg bench clamps with bench bases in the slider track. When I want a perfect glue line rip on a board I use the later. The two clamps and the blocks for the track cost less than $200 total. If you want to see what that looks like check out Ramon Valdez on IG and you can see the clamps on the track.

I’d love pneumatic clamps as much as the next person but it’s not in the budget. At least it’s wayyyy down the list from a lot of other things.

[Aaron Inami]

Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha

Generally, the Fritz-n-Franz will hold the piece steady enough, especially if you use flip-stops on both of them. But you can apply some friction tape to the Fritz-n-franz if you feel you need something extra:

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/friction-tape/

[Chris Parks]

Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha

As long as the piece being ripped is not flexible to the extent you cannot apply enough load on the jig to clamp it then yes I use the F&F jig. Understand the F&F jig was originally invented to be a clamp and not have any measuring built in and I had a fancy Incra equipped F&F jig and never used it because it is not needed. Where the idea for built in measing ever came from is a mystery because it is not needed for any reason I can think of or ever needed. Set the rip fence to the measurement you need and using the F&F jig use the rip fence as the measuring bump stop and the "off cut" is the piece that fits which is opposite to how a table.

This was mine 515643

This shows the short fence I use as a bump stop on the rip head. It shows why there is no need for a measuring system in the F&F jig when the rip fence measuring system does the same thing.


Showing the plain jig and rip fence as a bump stop 515645 515646

I cut a piece off the rip fence to use as a bump stop even though the full length fence could be used because I rarely use the rip fence for its intended purpose always ripping on the sliding table if possible and it also means I don't have to keep walking around the fence if it is in the proper position when ripping. The only reason it is as long as it is because it needs to be that long for combination machines when using the shaper.

515647The other disadvantage with most measuring systems built into the F&F jig is the jig cannot close right up as shown in this pic. it is possible to overcome that problem but I have got to ask why it is needed in the first place.

[John Pendery]

Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha


Josh, your saw will most likely come with an edging shoe. It’s kind of like a wedge that one end of the board pushes up against while putting a straight edge on a board.

I think Chris has a good point that you might want to use the saw a bit and figure out how you’ll be using it if you are unsure before buying expensive pneumatic clamps. I wouldn’t be without pneumatic clamps or a fritz and franz jig or several other jigs for that matter. They each serve their own purpose and do different things well.

A lot of folks push back saying pneumatic clamps are crazy expensive and totally unnecessary, but you’ll find a whole group at the other end of the spectrum who can’t afford to be without quick and seamless clamping devices at every machine in the shop for a combination of safety, speed, and accuracy. Neither group is right or wrong, just different needs and styles of work.

[Jim Becker]

Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha
I've used my F&F for longer boards with no issue...but they were, of course, flat and true prior. I do prefer using clamps for rips, however, as it completely takes the hands out of the picture for a "perfect" edge...something I want off the saw because I do not take the boards back to the jointer for edge dressing most of the time. F&F is more effective for shorter stock, IMHO, but is still very versatile.

[Josh Baldwin]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I'll take the advice to just wait and see how much I need the clamps after a few months of use. I did go ahead and get the Kreg clamps, so I feel like that should be totally fine for now.

[Brian Holcombe]

I tend to fall on the side of preference toward air clamps wherever possible. It’s often slightly slower than just holding the part but air clamps hold much tighter and keep your hands further away from the cutter.

[Chris Parks]

Why do none of the pictures I uploaded do not appear in my last post. When I go into edit they are all there.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hey Chris so do you find that the fritz and franz holds a long piece steady enough to straight line rip the board perfectly? That's honestly the only reason I was thinking about the pneumatic clamps. I have the f&f made by Bedrosian Woodworks, so it's a super nice one. I was just worried about long rips. Thanks for the info and for potentially saving me a bunch of money! ha

David Bedrosian was at a format saw seminar I was hosting and he brought his F&F jig just to make mine look shabby😉😉.

I agree with Chris, straight line with the F&F jig then use the short fence as an alignment stop for the F&F to rip a few mm oversized

No measurements or clamps required

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Parks]

Why do none of the pictures I uploaded do not appear in my last post. When I go into edit they are all there.

Jim, can you please have a look at my post that should show images and let me know why they are there in the edit screen but not when viewed in the thread. Thanks.

[Steve Jenkins]

Jim, can you please have a look at my post that should show images and let me know why they are there in the edit screen but not when viewed in the thread. Thanks.

Chris, you need to be a contributor to see pics. Only 6 bucks per year.

[Chris Parks]

Chris, you need to be a contributor to see pics. Only 6 bucks per year.

No, I can see all other pics when I am logged in.

[Jim Becker]

No, I can see all other pics when I am logged in.
Maybe if they are linked from another site, but only Contributors can see images uploaded to SCM...it's been that way for a few years now. Contributors get images, private messaging and access to the Classifieds. It's only six bux a year.

[Chris Parks]

Maybe if they are linked from another site, but only Contributors can see images uploaded to SCM...it's been that way for a few years now. Contributors get images, private messaging and access to the Classifieds. It's only six bux a year.

That's weird Jim because I see all images uploaded and always have and we have had this discussion before.

[Jeff Monson]

I'd 2nd Chris's advice. I use a F & F jig quite often on my KF700 and it works extremely well. I have a couple auto set Kreg clamps with t-nuts that I use if I really need to clamp a piece to the slider. Use the saw and see if you feel the need. I tried to use the Felder eccentric clamps a few times and found them always in the way.

[Alan Lightstone]

Strangely, I can't see the images either, and I'm a contributor. Not an issue I've run into before.
I get the message "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (https://sawmillcreek.org/sendmessage.php)"

[John Pendery]

I get the same message as Alan.

I’m curious to see the photos because I too often use a very short section of rip fence as a bump stop, but I am also constantly confronted with a cut that needs to be made where using the rip fence as a bump stop (where the off cut would be on the left side of the blade) would be sketchy at best. I don’t understand how one can say a measured piece to the left of the blade on a slider is never useful. I have my saw set up where I can make accurate cuts both ways.

[Kevin Jenness]

I agree with John. One situation where stops are useful on the carriage is ripping a narrow piece where the offcut is too small to grab with an F&F jig. It's an alternative to using the rip fence traditionally that keeps my fingers away from the blade. Another is cutting tapers. I have a number of jigs for the slider including a ripping shoe and auxiliary miter gauge but Fritz and Frans are used most often. The rip fence as a bump stop is very useful but not in every case.

As far as clamps go, I wouldn't be without a pair. Pneumatic clamps would be nice and save time but I get good results with screw clamps.
515952515953

[Brian Gouldman]

Used the kreg auto maxx clamps and fence as a stop earlier today to raise some panels on my Hammer B3 with the router spindle. Worked like a dream.

[John Pendery]

I agree with John. One situation where stops are useful on the carriage is ripping a narrow piece where the offcut is too small to grab with an F&F jig. It's an alternative to using the rip fence traditionally that keeps my fingers away from the blade. Another is cutting tapers. I have a number of jigs for the slider including a ripping shoe and auxiliary miter gauge but Fritz and Frans are used most often. The rip fence as a bump stop is very useful but not in every case.

As far as clamps go, I wouldn't be without a pair. Pneumatic clamps would be nice and save time but I get good results with screw clamps.
515952515953

Great examples and really nice shop made fixtures!