Completely overthinking first table saw purchase. Please help

[Stephen McBride]

I’m selling off some work equipment to clear up some space and pay for new tools. I’m a DIY hobbyist, probably not going to be turning woodworking into a career at any point, so I’m not going all in. I’m looking at the Fusion F1 saw vs the Hybrid Grizzly’s as my first and potentially only saw.

I’m mainly going to be using the saw to rip sheets of plywood for cabinets, built ins, cutting dados and smaller projects like keepsake boxes with splines and such.

The Fusion F1’s dust collection and table is making me lean in that direction over the Grizzly models.

Then we get into the SawStop discussion. I might be able to stretch for the hybrid contractor SS and I want to avoid jobsite saws because I’ve been borrowing one and even with my makeshift outfeed table, I just don’t feel as safe ripping sheets of plywood as I would on a proper table saw. Spending more on the table saw also means less than I can spend for other tools. Price difference is essentially a Festool track saw kit.

Long story short… besides the “how much are your fingers worth” discussion, how do the F1 and Grizzly hybrids hold up as a hobbyist saw and is the SawStop worth stretching for in terms of quality?

[John M Wilson]

I’m mainly going to be using the saw to rip sheets of plywood for cabinets

I want to avoid jobsite saws because I’ve been borrowing one and even with my makeshift outfeed table, I just don’t feel as safe ripping sheets of plywood as I would on a proper table saw.

You're going to get a lot of better advice from folks far more knowledgeable than me, but the first thing I thought is that the difficulty in finding a good answer is that you may be asking the wrong question.

I would suggest that a tracksaw is a better option than a small table saw for cutting up sheet goods. A combination of inexpensive track saw and lower priced jobsite saw may get you better, safer results at an equivalent cost.

Depending on your budget, you may be able to get the safety of the Sawstop after all.

I work in a very small space, and have found the combination of tracksaw and jobsite saw (mine is a Bosch, but I'm saving up for the Sawstop) does everything I need as a hobbyist woodworker in a safe and controlled manner. While I would like to have a centerpiece table saw with a huge outfeed table that would handle 4x8 sheets safely, there isn't room in my workspace or budget.

[Ron Selzer]

"and is the SawStop worth stretching for in terms of quality?"
yes spend the money and cry once
Took me a long time to buy my SawStop ICS, yes it was a lot of money. I tremendously enjoy it every time I use it
I bought a Safety Speed Cut H-5, 60" crosscut, before the SawStop came on the market, a panel saw is the ticket for cutting plywood and other sheet goods
I started out with a 10" TS with nonmetallic top, then a Jet contractor for a month before I forced Jet to buy it back. Then bought a Delta contractors saw, used it for 17 yrs and then bought the SawStop ICS. Bought a Dewalt radial arm saw early on. Bought more Radial arm saws thru the years. Now own 3 panel saws, 4 Radial arm Saws and the SawStop.
I recommend you shop for a used panel saw for the plywood and get a compact table saw for the little stuff. Cut your dados with a router.
Get a good air cleaner first, then dust collector, by then you will have a better idea of what you want in a jointer, planer and possibly a lot better idea of what you want in a table saw.
Ron

The Safety Speed Cut H-5 is fastened to the garage wall and protrudes about a foot out. Mounted it there in 1999, only problem is wife buries it and I have to move things to use it,

[John TenEyck]

If you're thinking this might be your one and only saw, I'd look for a well-cared for US made Unisaw, PM 66, or similar. You will get a lot more saw for your money than new and a well-cared for one will last a very, very long time. I have a 1954 Unisaw, born the same year as me, and I'm quite sure it will outlast me by a very wide margin. These saws probably provided design inspiration for SawStop's internals.

Those old saws are built far more robustly than the ones you're considering, especially the PM66. You will never have reason to upgrade unless you decide to get a SawStop or slider. Around me, I see 3 hp Unisaws for around $1000 and PM-66's for around $1500.

Ripping sheets of plywood requires a heavy, stable saw with good outfeed support, too. Jobsite and contractor saws need not apply.

John

[Zachary Hoyt]

I have a Unisaw and have had other lesser tablesaws, and have also used a Makita tracksaw once. I see Unisaws well under $500 on occasion at online school auctions. There are a lot of them around. For sheet goods a 1 HP bullet motor like mine has is plenty, even in 3/4" maple plywood. The tracksaw is nice, but you have to set up each cut, so if you are doing a lot of repetitive cuts the tablesaw is faster, but the tracksaw can do some things better like cutting a hole out of a piece of plywood. If you want to buy something new I have no idea, as I am a bottom feeder in the tool market. I am, like you, not a fan of jobsite saws. My first cost me $30 from an ad in the paper and it was OK, but not great, even for smaller things than full sheets of plywood. I like a nice solid cast iron top and a cabinet much better than anything on legs with holes in the top.

[Michael Burnside]

I own a SawStop and it’s the only saw I would buy unless I was considering a slider. No comments from me other than that’s what I’d buy or save up for period. I like Laguna tools but don’t have any experience with the F1.

There are lots of ways to cut sheet goods, but I’ll stay on the table saw topic.

[Aaron Inami]

I've gone through a number of different cabinet saws over a period of about 20 years. They are all different. The best cabinet saw I had (before moving to a slider) was a 5HP Powermatic 66. It just "felt" more solid than any other cabinet saw I used (Jet, Delta, etc.).

That being said, the Fusion F1 is basically a contractor saw that "looks" like a cabinet saw. I would not touch this and expect it to feel anything like a good solid cabinet saw. At only 195lbs., it even weighs less than the Sawstop CNS!!!

The Sawstop CNS is likely going to be the best contractor saw you can get, especially if you stretch the budget and go for the T-Glide fence (about another $250). However, it's still a contractor saw. And probably your best bet if you want the Sawstop protection.

If I did not care about the "sawstop protection" and was looking in your budget level, I would probably get the Grizzly G0899:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-10-2-hp-115v-230v-cabinet-saw/g0899

It's almost twice the weight of contractor saws at about 400lbs. Good dust collection and the Harvey sliding table is compatible for mounting:
https://www.harveywoodworking.com/products/compass-st-1500-sliding-table?variant=37784413077687

If you are doing plywood sheets, I highly recommend this sliding table as well as an out-feed. Both are very important. There were many years where I wish I would have had this sliding table on my cabinet saw. I generally do a lot of sheet goods like plywood and such. You can also cross-cut longer boards on this (something you typically had to go to a miter saw for). Here's an example of what you can do with this type of sliding table:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OubnQ7w0mK0

One of the good things about the Grizzly G0899 is the hi/lo rip fence that you can also slide back to use as a stopper when using the sliding table to cut material.

Another video on the Harvey sliding table:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cgr6sIjl1k


Alternatively, you can use a track saw to help "break-down" large 4x8 sheets, but you still need to be able to fine cut the smallish pieces. I remember struggling to try to rip cut a sheet that was 24" x 36". It would be so much easier with that Harvey sliding table.

Oh, be aware that a 20A circuit is recommended for any of these 1.75HP or 2HP saws. Otherwise, you are likely going to have circuit breakers popping all the time.


By the way, the current sale price of $1199 for the Harvey Compass sliding table --WITH AH-3T hold-down clamp-- is a screaming deal!!

[Thomas McCurnin]

What John TenEyck said.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In most big woodworking tools, table saws, bandsaws. jointers, and planers, mass is your friend! The more cast iron and weight, the less vibration.

[Richard Coers]

I'm going to stop replying to any table saw discussions. It always turns into a Sawstop battle and we've had that battle about 100 times. But I would look for an old Unisaw and forget the cheap imports.

[Michael Burnside]

I'm going to stop replying to any table saw discussions. It always turns into a Sawstop battle and we've had that battle about 100 times. But I would look for an old Unisaw and forget the cheap imports.

Battle? A bit over reacting aren't we? I actually find numerous posts above quite insightful with zero malice in the bunch. Particularly John's. Good grief, if we can't use the brand name without causing problems, is it really the people that own the saws or those that don't?

[andrew whicker]

Used all the way. I'm also an auction or fb marketplace buyer. I've never had a real miss.

I can break down sheet goods decently w a table saw. The problem is the left side of the Blade where you don't have as much support but you can fix this.

They are called cabinet saws... but yes my tracksaw is easier and more fool proof. I can also break down sheets with less waste because of the tracksaw. But a tracksaw (festool etc) can be duplicated fairly well w a circular saw.

[Tom Trees]

Big difference between a saw with an actual riving knife, compared to those who only have splitters.
Mainly the mechanism for raising the blade.

I wasn't aware of this, and thought making a true riving knife for one of those old Unisaws or whatever cast iron equivalent
wouldn't be that much bother.
How very wrong I was, lol.
That is,....a proper riving knife, which can be set 8mm away, or closer, so it actually works, in terms of kickback.
The splitters simply aren't up to the task, and only half arsed come into play, when much beyond the blade.

Here's what you'll likely have to do, in order to make a riving knife for one of those unsafe machines.
Over in Europe, we pretty much always had "true riving knives" on the ones made/sold here.

Might seem a lot of bother, but perhaps someone CNC's those parts, not came across such, but then again I didn't NEED to look,
as my old Startrite has one already.

Have fun trying to figure that one out, if leaning towards the likes.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133210-Delta-34-350-12-14-quot-riving-knife-retrofit

All the best
Tom

[mike stenson]

I don't believe that the trunion design supports modification to a true riving knife. You're correct, the change would not be trivial as the linked modification shows.

[Paul McGaha]

If you're thinking this might be your one and only saw, I'd look for a well-cared for US made Unisaw, PM 66, or similar. You will get a lot more saw for your money than new and a well-cared for one will last a very, very long time. I have a 1954 Unisaw, born the same year as me, and I'm quite sure it will outlast me by a very wide margin. These saws probably provided design inspiration for SawStop's internals.

Those old saws are built far more robustly than the ones you're considering, especially the PM66. You will never have reason to upgrade unless you decide to get a SawStop or slider. Around me, I see 3 hp Unisaws for around $1000 and PM-66's for around $1500.

Ripping sheets of plywood requires a heavy, stable saw with good outfeed support, too. Jobsite and contractor saws need not apply.

John

I agree with every word of John's post. I'd add that if I were buying new I'd probably buy Powermatic or Jet. Because I've had good luck with new tools from Powermatic and Jet.

My table saw is about a 2000 model Unisaw I bought new.

Good luck with your purchase.

PHM

[Peter Mich]

You're going to get a lot of better advice from folks far more knowledgeable than me, but the first thing I thought is that the difficulty in finding a good answer is that you may be asking the wrong question.

I would suggest that a tracksaw is a better option than a small table saw for cutting up sheet goods. A combination of inexpensive track saw and lower priced jobsite saw may get you better, safer results at an equivalent cost.

Depending on your budget, you may be able to get the safety of the Sawstop after all.

I work in a very small space, and have found the combination of tracksaw and jobsite saw (mine is a Bosch, but I'm saving up for the Sawstop) does everything I need as a hobbyist woodworker in a safe and controlled manner. While I would like to have a centerpiece table saw with a huge outfeed table that would handle 4x8 sheets safely, there isn't room in my workspace or budget.

Since your primary focus is on cutting up sheet goods, I agree completely with John.

[Curt Harms]

If you're using a lot of sheet goods and work alone, I would certainly consider some sort of guided saw in addition to a table saw. I won't speak for others but trying to maneuver a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood onto a table saw by my self is not my idea of a good time, especially if the table saw doesn't have a half acre of room in front, back and sides. I find it so much easier to at least rough size panels right off the truck then trim if required and process. Even making just one cut to start goes a long way. I find a 4 X 4 or 2 X 8 reasonable to handle by my self though 8' can be a problem; that requires 16' clearway front to back. As far as saw, I have a G1023 with aftermarket fence and it does what I need it to do.

[Jim Becker]

Since your primary focus is on cutting up sheet goods, I agree completely with John.
Ditto. Track saw for the sheet goods...easier to handle and because of that, IMHO, safer and then a decent table saw for crosscutting, smaller rips, sled work, etc, that go into projects. 3/4" (18mm) sheet goods can be darn heavy for one person, even when they are not "mature" like many of us are, so bringing the tool to the material can have an edge, pardon the expression.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Stephen, here are my thoughts

1) cabinet and contractor table saws aren’t great for sheet goods, try a small slider and you’ll realize why

2) compare your healthcare costs to the delta for a saw with active safety features such as a SawStop and the decision becomes easy

3) your budget doesn’t allow for a slider so a SawStop and a track saw make the most sense

4) as a technologist I like old stuff and can repair almost anything, that said, new saws can have riving knives instead of splitters, better guards and dust collection, all important considerations

Have fun, please keep us posted on your progress, Regards, Rod.

[Carroll Courtney]

I can only speak from the saws that I have used in past, and given opinion on what I wish I had. If I had room at time and budget I would have purchase a slider, as saying goes you only have cry once. But my first purchase was Sears and their fence which was 70’s. After that it was Delta’s contractor saw with rip fence bars. After that it was older Unisaw with cast iron plinth and Biesemeyer fence. Different between night/day and how can person improve on Unisaw? Well I now have PM 66 I believe from 80’s which I’ve had for about last 30 years. Before retiring working for school district most of their woodshop machinery was all Delta/ Rockwell or PM, and it’s been that way for years. With that said, having a PM to me there is no upgrades needed for this hobbyist. I just need to keep my blade sharp and my biesemeyer fence square . Remember good saw is only part of journey, rest is up to user

[Ole Anderson]

Breaking down plywood on anything other than a large slider is a nightmare. Track saw to get to manageable sizes, than take it to the TS for precision ripping.

[jack duren]

If you know how to cut sheet goods on a table saw ,you won’t want a track saw.

if your not use to it, then get a track saw.

Sawstop, other… if you don’t want a Sawstop , just take a look at Grizzly. Used is great, but like anything used, it could come with future problems. New is great, but could come with future problems, but is nice to have new.

3hp is great for hardwoods, but if not buying to cut full sheet goods , you could scale down to a 2 hp.

Sliders are great for sheet goods, but a PITA working with small parts..

[Stan Calow]

I am a hobbyist too, and I have to point out that a consideration you have that pros do not, is whether the time you are running the saw is worth the cost of the saws you're looking at. My saw usage (SS contractor - costly enough) probably averages a couple of minutes a week. I could not justify a cabinet saw or something like a Unisaw - used or new. The few times a year I need to break down sheet goods I use a plain old circular saw and guide to make a rough cut, and clean up the smaller pieces on the table saw if necessary. If I did it regularly, I couldn't fit the extra indeed/outfeed tables into my shop.

I am curious as to why you referred to the SS contractor saw as a "hybrid" in the OP.

[Jimmy Harris]

For what you're doing, I think all of these saws are overkill. And if you're doing a lot of sheet goods, I really think your money is better spent on a track saw. Then, get a decent used contractor's table saw for ripping skinny boards and a miter saw, and you'll be all set.

If you're worried about safety, using the right saw for the job is a lot safer than using the best saw money can buy.

[jack duren]

Just see what you want at Grizzly. Check new prices and then do a used search on Craigslist, Marketplace. See what’s out there and make a decision.

[Mike Cutler]

If you know for certain that there will be a lot of sheet good work in your future, then invest in a panel saw. They take up very little space for what they do. A slider would be my next choice, but even with a slider, there is some muscling about that has to happen, and they take up a lot of room. With a panel saw the sheet is moved in the vertical plane and that is how most people pick them up.
For the rest of what you state you want to do, any quality saw, with a good fence, will be a one time purchase. I would particularly heed the advice to buy used. You can buy a much better used saw for the money, than new. A table saw is not a complicated machine to restore. Match mark any washers or shims, and the rest is pretty easy.
I'll stay out of the SawStop argument. Other than seeing them on the floor in Woodcraft, I have no knowledge or experience with one.

[jack duren]

Panel saws use a lot of space..why I never bought one…

[Mike Cutler]

Jack

I was referring to a vertical panel saw. I should have been more clear. A lot of home shops probably have more available wall space, than floor space. Not as accurate as a slider though.
I've never bought one because they can be very expensive, even the "cheap ones", and that's before a person even factors in the cost of the saw, and blades.

[Warren Lake]

Auction prices are what they are and I wont generalize statements as last two auctions I saw had some very good prices. maybe even one of those verticle saws for cheap as well. having worked on cabinet saws getting an entry level slider is a thing I should have done a long time ago. the saw is so much better than cabinet saws are. Ill get a full size slider next but keep this one as I can rip like a cabinet saw, what im used to.

[Stephen McBride]

I am curious as to why you referred to the SS contractor saw as a "hybrid" in the OP.
Just double checked and I misspoke. The contractor is indeed the one I was looking at, I called it a hybrid because my mind was on the similar looking Grizzly G0692.

Wow, thank you everyone for all the responses. Definitely a lot to consider!

One thing I left out is that I am planning on keeping my detached garage 120 V so that would limit my options.

I'm new to the used market. There doesn't seem to be a lot available in my region (I'm in the Connecticut tri-state area) from looking on FB, Criagslist, IRS Auctions/ estate sales and Google. Any tips for websites to check?

And yes, cutting down a 4x8 sheet on any saw in my range will always be a challenge. Currently I have the store or mill cut down to 2x8 to fit in my CRV and then use a circular saw and guide to cross cut then I rip on the table saw to the final dimensions. Planning to keep to this method unless the project is big enough to have a truck drop off all the sheets (next big project is a banquette and some built-ins so probably going to be ordering full sheets for this).

My wishlist for this is getting pretty long including a Festool TS 55, some sort of 1-1.5 HP dust collection, paint sprayer parallel clamps and an electrician to set up the subpanel in my detached garage so I can rewire for a proper shop (keeping it 120 V but I'll have two 20 Amp circuits and two 15 Amp to run everything). so I'm going to keep going over what everyone here has said to consider for the purchase.


Edit: Going to the SawStop battle, I hate it too. I fully understand the desire to have it. I have a young family and would like to utilize all ten fingers as well as my life when I'm around them for the most part. Being a hobbyist, I'm not under deadlines besides the wife complaining about how long its taking and I take my time. A hefty, sturdy saw definitely makes me feel safer when working and I will be building proper outfeed for the saw no matter what I get.

The idea of a CTS built-in to a 4x6 assembly table is of interest to me as I don't see myself ripping 8/4 hard maple anytime soon (famous last words as my wife wants a new mantle...) and the power of the DeWalt I've been using seems to be enough so far. It's mainly the rigidness and heft that has me uneasy about the jobsite saws.

[Justin Rapp]

All good points from everyone here. I am a Laguna fan, have 3 tools from them. However when I saw the Laguna Fusion series, especially the F1, I felt the fence was worthy of a $200 craftsman from the 80's. I would steer clear of it. Even if you go for a contractor grade saw, get one with a good fence or you will hate the saw.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I would watch auctionsinternational.com too. They do a lot of school auctions, municipal and some business liquidations. You might have to wait a bit for the thing you want or something like it to appear in your area, but it might be there at any time. You can search using the Past Prices page to see what things have gone for.

[jack duren]

Sorry. I’m talking about vertical panel saws.. they require a lot of space to operate

[Rod Sheridan]

Ditto. 18mm) sheet goods can be darn heavy for one person, even when they are not "mature" like many of us are.


Ahem Jim, I prefer “well seasoned”…….Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Ahem Jim, I prefer “well seasoned”…….Regards, Rod
Makes sense. I tend to use the "M" word rather than the "O" word. LOL

[andrew whicker]

The electrical is a bummer. 110v and 15 amps is only 2 HP...


But I get it. I ran 100 amps to my garage and it cost me ~$1k to the electrical company and I did all the labor from the main panel to my garage (I dug the trench myself, bought the sub panel, wiring and underground tubing myself). They did have to move the exterior meter so that did add extra cost. Also that cost was well before the pandemic pricing.

: /

[Jim Becker]

The electrical is a bummer. 110v and 15 amps is only 2 HP...

Especially if there is only one 120v circuit in the building. (not making that assumption, but just using for example) That may preclude using dust collection at all. There's really a need for at least two 120v 20 amp circuits to "best support" the tools because dust collection generally requires a dedicated electrical source due to what it typically draws. A 15 amp circuit might run a tool, but it's pushing things for the larger tools for safety margin.

[Jimmy Harris]

Edit: Going to the SawStop battle, I hate it too. I fully understand the desire to have it. I have a young family and would like to utilize all ten fingers as well as my life when I'm around them for the most part. Being a hobbyist, I'm not under deadlines besides the wife complaining about how long its taking and I take my time. A hefty, sturdy saw definitely makes me feel safer when working and I will be building proper outfeed for the saw no matter what I get.

The idea of a CTS built-in to a 4x6 assembly table is of interest to me as I don't see myself ripping 8/4 hard maple anytime soon (famous last words as my wife wants a new mantle...) and the power of the DeWalt I've been using seems to be enough so far. It's mainly the rigidness and heft that has me uneasy about the jobsite saws.

Yeah, SawStops are nice. But you've got to be doing something pretty dumb to actually cut a finger on a table saw blade. Follow general safety guidelines, and your fingers will never go near the blade. What IS an issue is kick back. And even a SawStop can kick back. That's where most people get hurt. Again, general safety precautions can limit this, but it's not as easy to avoid as getting your hand caught in a blade. So don't fall for the misinformed notion that you NEED a SawStop. If you actually NEED a SawStop for safety, then you probably shouldn't be allowed near ANY power saw. What you NEED is responsibility. But if you WANT a SawStop, then that's fine. They're great saws.

As for stability, I advocate for the used contractor's table saw, about 3HP. They're a lot more stable than a jobsite saw. And they're a lot cheaper than a cabinet saw. It's kind of the perfect middle for the hobbyist. With a good blade, you'll tear through 8/4 hard maple on a 3HP saw like butter. Just keep your eyes peeled and a good one will pop up locally on the used market. But if sheet goods are what you work with the most, I wouldn't waste too much on any table saw right away. They're the wrong tool for the job (until you've cut the sheets down to a manageable size). Buy a track saw first, instead. That'll get more use.

And don't worry about a Festool track saw. Sure, they're nice. Great actually! But track saws don't need to be anything fancy to cut dead straight lines. Lots of cheaper models work just as well. Again, a good blade is what really makes the difference.

I'm not trying to talk you out of getting a SawStop or Festool saw. They're both great and I doubt you'd ever regret buying either. I'm just saying don't feel like you NEED to buy them, or your safety or your work will suffer if you don't. If they're out of your price range, don't let someone else shame you into spending more than you can afford on something you don't need.

[andrew whicker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCqh3eg5Ut0&t=74s

Seriously, make your own tracksaw... save $1500 (last time I looked I think). If you ultimately have the budget of ~$1500 or so you can buy a used Unisaw for pretty cheap (w/ a drive it sounds like) and save some money for all other stuff... blades, plywood for jigs, building yourself an outfeed and right hand side of the table out, clamps, etc.

The cost of the tool itself on the big equipment gets swamped by the tooling cost (for me at least) over time. My Uni was $600 many moons ago, but I JUST bought two $175 blades for it because I ran into a screw w/ one and I needed a laminate blade. Bad timing to find a pocket screw. But that's over half the cost in blades with one mouse button click. Granted those are nice blades, but still. Point being the budget can't be entirely taken up by the tool itself or else you won't be able to use it until the next splurge. Lots of people use (me included) a nice combination blade like Forrest. I think that's a $100 blade, but people do seem to use it for everything (cross cut, rip and sheet goods). A plywood blade is pretty nice.

(it's crazy you can't find anything used, I always thought that part of the world was stacked w/ used equipment)

[John TenEyck]

You have to be willing to drive a ways if you want a good used saw. I drove 5 hours one way (Albany) to buy my J/P, 6 hours (Mass.) for a drum sander. Notice the trend. So cast a wider net. I've seen two Unisaws around Buffalo/NF in the past week or saw. And if you need a RAS, there are many old Dewalts to choose from.

Your 120V/20amp limitation is the biggest issue. You can run a 2 hp saw, but not a DC with it. That's just never going to work. You need more power unless you want to be a hand tool worker. Or maybe a track saw worker.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm waiting to buy a saw stop technology saw until the patent expires.
I'm thinking the price of all saws will drop like a rock when that happens.

[jack duren]

I'm waiting to buy a saw stop technology saw until the patent expires.
I'm thinking the price of all saws will drop like a rock when that happens.


I doubt it. There will be competition, but they ain’t stupid enough to give it away cheap..

I think you just want options.

[John TenEyck]

I'm waiting to buy a saw stop technology saw until the patent expires.
I'm thinking the price of all saws will drop like a rock when that happens.

That happens in the drug world, but not elsewhere. If others are able to add SawStop like technology the price of their saws is going to rise. If you want a SawStop, best to buy it while you can still use it.

John

[Stephen McBride]

Especially if there is only one 120v circuit in the building. (not making that assumption, but just using for example) That may preclude using dust collection at all. There's really a need for at least two 120v 20 amp circuits to "best support" the tools because dust collection generally requires a dedicated electrical source due to what it typically draws. A 15 amp circuit might run a tool, but it's pushing things for the larger tools for safety margin.

I have 60 Amps, 240 V running to a subpanel in my garage. I don’t know anything really about electrical service, I’m comfortable putting in outlets and switches, that’s about it. A pro will be doing all the main breaker and panel work for me. Knowing that, can I run a 220 V saw off this?

The plan currently is for one 20 Amp circuit for the table saw and miter saw, one 20 Amp for dust collection, one 15 Amp for lights and chargers, one 15 Amp for hand power tools and whatnot. It’s just me working out of my garage for whatever the wife finds interesting on Instagram, so I’m not worried on overloading circuits given that I’m running everything off of one 15 Amp circuit that the lights are also on.

And found some Unisaws and PM 66 saws on FB Marketplace and messaged. Pricing seems to be around what everyone here is saying. A few good finds, gonna get more info and make a decision.

As for the Festool track saw, I’ve been using the Kreg Accucut for the last year or so since I began and I’m really getting fed up with it. Depth adjusting is tedious, makes a mess, sled keeps moving slightly and the zero clearance strip keeps getting messed up so it’s not actually zero clearance anymore. This is probably the only time I’ll have the cash to do so, so I think I’m gonna go for it.

Looking at $5k for the lot with hopes of some left over in the end. $1k for a used saw plus truck rental to pick it up or $1,300-1,500 for new plus freight. $700 for track saw kit, $600 for paint sprayer, $300-400 for clamps, then whatever it ends up being for the electrical work. Unsure on dust collection systems, so haven’t fully factored it in it yet.

[Nick Crivello]

I have 60 Amps, 240 V running to a subpanel in my garage. I don’t know anything really about electrical service, I’m comfortable putting in outlets and switches, that’s about it. A pro will be doing all the main breaker and panel work for me. Knowing that, can I run a 220 V saw off this?

The plan currently is for one 20 Amp circuit for the table saw and miter saw, one 20 Amp for dust collection, one 15 Amp for lights and chargers, one 15 Amp for hand power tools and whatnot. It’s just me working out of my garage for whatever the wife finds interesting on Instagram, so I’m not worried on overloading circuits given that I’m running everything off of one 15 Amp circuit that the lights are also on.



You can actually do quite a bit off a 60amp subpanel. That's what I have, there are 3 separate 220v circuits coming off it. One goes to the rotary phase converter for three phase stuff, the second is for the welder and other high amp single phase stuff; third is for the dryer and lower amp single phase equipment. I'm one man, so it's always the dust collector and one machine at a time.

My setup was cobbled together over time, but thoughtful planning will get you quite a ways.

[Patty Hann]

I have to get my garage rewired, and I'm already planning for both 120V and 240V (100A sub-panel also) .
Should at least a few of the 120V lines be wired for 30A? or all of them?
(None will be at 15A except maybe the current single overhead light outlet, will stay as it is.)

[Nick Crivello]

I have to get my garage rewired, and I'm already planning for both 120V and 240V (100A sub-panel also) .
Should at least a few of the 120V lines be wired for 30A? or all of them?
(None will be at 15A except maybe the current single overhead light outlet, will stay as it is.)

Just have everything wired in such a way that is rated for 30A, then use whatever breaker is indicated based on usage of that particular circuit.

I haven't done it, but note that a 240v circuit can have outlets that step down to 120v, but not the other way around. Could be useful from a logistics/planning/space perspective.

[Patty Hann]

Just have everything wired in such a way that is rated for 30A, then use whatever breaker is indicated based on usage of that particular circuit.

I haven't done it, but note that a 240v circuit can have outlets that step down to 120v, but not the other way around. Could be useful from a logistics/planning/space perspective.
Thank you Nick...good to know about the step down.
Also I was very much leaning toward all ckts being 30A... so now that's settled. :)

[Zachary Hoyt]

You'll be fine with 60 amp 240v. 240 and 220 are newer and older designations, but are basically the same thing for your purposes. My shop is on a 50 amp subpanel because of how high wire was in 2022 when I built it. I thought it over and decided that was enough for me. I run a 1 hp rollaround dust collector and a 1.5 hp drum sander plus the small sander feed motor off a single 20 amp 120v circuit on 12-2 wire, and have not yet tripped a circuit breaker. I wait a few seconds for one big motor to spin up before switching on the other one. Best of luck finding a suitable saw. It's fun to look for things like that in the used market, sometimes.

[John TenEyck]

60 amps at 240 V is over 14 KW. That's what I have in basement shop, and I run a 5 hp (3.7 KW) BS and 2 hp (1.5 KW) DC at the same time, plus lights and some other stuff for the house w/o issue. You have plenty of power available.

John

[Nick Crivello]

60 amps at 240 V is over 14 KW. That's what I have in basement shop, and I run a 5 hp (3.7 KW) BS and 2 hp (1.5 KW) DC at the same time, plus lights and some other stuff for the house w/o issue. You have plenty of power available.

John

Yes, I have a 5 hp DC; the saw, planer, and jointer are all in the 5-10hp range. I'll run the DC with another machine, no problem at all.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I doubt it. There will be competition, but they ain’t stupid enough to give it away cheap..

I think you just want options.


That happens in the drug world, but not elsewhere. If others are able to add SawStop like technology the price of their saws is going to rise. If you want a SawStop, best to buy it while you can still use it.


The $20 Harbor Freight version and the $99 Rockwell version of the $400 to $700 Fein Multimaster and the $200 Wen version of the $850 Festool track saw say different.

Granted the SS will probably stay expensive - just like the Festool track saw - but - other manufacturers are sure to jump on board at some point.

[Justin Rapp]

That happens in the drug world, but not elsewhere. If others are able to add SawStop like technology the price of their saws is going to rise. If you want a SawStop, best to buy it while you can still use it.

John

I agree. There is already legislation coming from the US Consumer Product Safety Commission that all table saws will be required to have blade stop technology before it cuts 3.5mm deep into flesh. Link below. However manufactures are claiming that that this technology requirement is going to drive the price of saws up, in some cases significantly. If the cost to add the tech is say, $500, a $3000 saw will become 3500, and maybe jacked up to 3800 because they can. And the $300 benchtop model goes to 800+. Given this potential requirement going through to a law, the requirement is still 3.5mm, which is still a pretty deep cut. Thickness of your skin on fingers is between 0.25 and 9.93mm per NIH. @3.5mm your finger won't go flying off, but you are already down into the muscle tissue, ligaments, tendons etc.

Airbags were introduced by GM in 1973, but 25 years later in 1998, airbags became a requirement, not to mention other emissions requirements. However car manufactures started to add air bags to most cars even 10 years prior to keep up with safety standards consumers want. Did you ever see car prices go down when new safety standards became a requirement?

If you want the added safety of a Stop Stop, you are only kidding yourself about the price dropping. It might even go up based on current inflation.


https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws

[Bill Dufour]

I see no need for more then 20 amps on 120 volts. AFAIK anything needing more then 20 amps can be rewired to 240 volts. I do not recommend running multiple 120 volt 20 amp loads all on the same circuit.
Connecting #10 wire to a small 120V outlet will be tough. I would only use back clamp devices with that size wire. Use quad boxes for a single outlet to allow bends, etc.
I like to run two 120v circuits down the same wall. One circuit has ground up the other is ground down in every other box.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

Patty, if the walls are open while rewiring I would add a few extra outlet boxes in the ceiling tied to the light switch. You can plug in some fluorescent lights latter if needed. I would also run a few light outlets down about 6' high near machine locations. Use these high outlets to plug in a task light for each machine and a radio or fan. One switch will turn off all the lights so you do not forget on the way out.
Bill D

[Rich Engelhardt]

Right now - Woodcraft is selling the Sawstop contractors saw for $2000.
Lowes is selling a Delta contractors saw for $699. Even if the flesh sensing technology added one half to the price of the Delta, it would still be half of what the Sawstop is.

How can you not see that there is a saving there?

[Mike Cutler]

I have to get my garage rewired, and I'm already planning for both 120V and 240V (100A sub-panel also) .
Should at least a few of the 120V lines be wired for 30A? or all of them?
(None will be at 15A except maybe the current single overhead light outlet, will stay as it is.)

Patty
If you want to put in heavier gauge wire for the 120vac circuits, that's up to you. As long as the breaker is sized properly for the load, you're okay. But a 30 amp circuit is going 10awg wire, and that's going to be tough to work with and I don't know that it will fit under a 120 duplex receptacle screw and pass inspection.
Go with LED lighting, and make sure your lights are on breakers that are separate from the duplex receptacles.
As for the 15 versus 20 amps at the receptacles, I have only ever seen one device in my life that required an actual 120/20 amp duplex receptacle. Everything else is 15 amps or below. 15 amp circuits allow for 14awg wire, and that's a lot easier to work with than the 12awg that would be required for a 20 amp installation. I don't know of a single woodworking tool made that has a 20 amp plug on it shipped from the manufacturer..
If its is just you working in your shop, you will have very few loads that will run simultaneously. The dust collector, and what ever machine you are using at that time. An air compressor that may kick on while those tools are running. and lights.
A 100 amp panel will be nice. Plenty of breaker space to separate circuits. Plenty of power to run 3-5hp motors. ;)
Put in a 50 amp circuit, and the receptacle near the door. Now you can run a welder, and when times come, charge an EV car battery. ;)

[Michael Burnside]

I have to get my garage rewired, and I'm already planning for both 120V and 240V (100A sub-panel also) .
Should at least a few of the 120V lines be wired for 30A? or all of them?
(None will be at 15A except maybe the current single overhead light outlet, will stay as it is.)

IMHO I would do 20A 120V circuits with A/B runs at each location (so you get 2 20A circuits on different breakers) and 30A 240V circuits. I have one 60A 240V that I've not yet used for anything. But it is your money, so if you want 10AWG all over go nuts, I just don't see, in practice, that it is necessary for a single 120V circuit. Seems like a waste to me anyway, especially since I would still want A/B circuits at a given location. Every 120V outlet in my shop has an A and B line.

[Curt Harms]

Thank you Nick...good to know about the step down.
Also I was very much leaning toward all ckts being 30A... so now that's settled. :)

As long as somebody else is doing the work:). 30 amp circuits will require #10 wire I believe. #10 wire can be a PITA to work with unless the devices are designed for it.

[Aaron Inami]

As long as somebody else is doing the work:). 30 amp circuits will require #10 wire I believe. #10 wire can be a PITA to work with unless the devices are designed for it.

That's my understanding as well. I believe this is what is recommended:

120V 15A - 12 awg
120V 20A - 10 awg

240V 20A - 12 awg
240V 30A - 10 awg

[mike stenson]

That's my understanding as well. I believe this is what is recommended:

120V 15A - 12 awg
120V 20A - 10 awg

240V 20A - 12 awg
240V 30A - 10 awg

15amp is most commonly run with 14awg. 20, is most commonly 12, etc...

[jack duren]

I thought power and usage was pretty straight forward. Every discussion is a like a recreation on the wheel..

it’s not three phase..

[mike stenson]

I thought power and usage was pretty straight forward. Every discussion is a like a recreation on the wheel..

it’s not three phase..

Three phase isn't complicated either.

[Warren Lake]

real three phase is simple. Three phase off a roto then there are dynamics.

[John TenEyck]

Right now - Woodcraft is selling the Sawstop contractors saw for $2000.
Lowes is selling a Delta contractors saw for $699. Even if the flesh sensing technology added one half to the price of the Delta, it would still be half of what the Sawstop is.

How can you not see that there is a saving there?

Of course, but you're not comparing apples to apples, and as was mentioned before, the price of the Delta went up. So, where's your savings? You bought a lower quality saw for less than a SawStop? OK, you win.

John

[Michael Burnside]

15amp is most commonly run with 14awg. 20, is most commonly 12, etc...

This is correct. Going 10 for 20A 120V only gets you bragging rights and a lighter pocket book :p

[Warren Lake]

worst mistake I made was starting with single phase stuff. People I knew in the trade one didnt know about Rotos, Another had one and I didnt find out for some number of years, the first one had put three phase into his shop. Fine if you can do it then the cost is way up compared to past. Considering all he would have been fine on a roto had he known. Industrail power costs more as well.

[mike stenson]

This is correct. Going 10 for 20A 120V only gets you bragging rights and a lighter pocket book :p
Or the ability to swap outlets and breakers later on.

This is actually a decent use-case for doing so.

Personally, I just install 20 amp breakers and 12ga wiring.. and use either 15 or 20 amp outlets.

[Justin Rapp]

Right now - Woodcraft is selling the Sawstop contractors saw for $2000.
Lowes is selling a Delta contractors saw for $699. Even if the flesh sensing technology added one half to the price of the Delta, it would still be half of what the Sawstop is.

How can you not see that there is a saving there?

I suspect if Delta added flesh sensing tech to their saw, with the same tolerance as sawstop, not the 3.5mm rule coming out, the price would jump substantially. Not just half the cost. Some manufactures are saying it will add +1000 to the cost of the saw.

Regardless, while I am sure the Delta is a popular machine and I don't think there needs to be a debate on the quality tolerances between Delta's 'big box store' offerings and sawstop, regardless of price. When you are holding your finger in an ice bag at the emergency room, you won't care about the fact you paid an extra $$$$ for a saw. And it's the same for most safety equipment. It's like the guy who takes his 250k fishing boat offshore for some tuna using his $1000 fishing rod, and burns 225 gallons of fuel but won't make a 1 time $700 purchase on an EPRIB or 350 on a PLB (which are location beacons for search and rescue to find you if your boat sinks). I can tell you from sailing, when were we mid-way between the US and Bermuda, some 300 miles from land and lost our steering, while we were not taking on water or sinking (but could have an issue if weather came up with no steering and end up beam-to the waves), it was nice to know there was two EPRIBS on board and my life-jacket has a PLB.

When it comes to safety, you sure think that spending the extra money was a waste, until after the accident.

[andrew whicker]

I'd rather have multiple small amperage circuits than one big circuit with larger amperage. More cost effective and I think would be maintenance effective.

If I were to rewire, I would personally just think of 220v circuits as completely separate from the 110 circuits. So 110v outlets every 6 ft or whatever you pick. The 220v ones where you think you'll need them roughly.

That's how I think of it anyway. 220 circuits and 3 phase circuits are more expensive and take up a lot of breaker box room so I try to be more efficient with their placements vs 15 or 20 amp circuits which can have the double pull breakers (two circuits in one slot). Those are really nice space savers.

Also, it takes quite a bit of a motor to really pull amps. I think 15 amp is fine for a lot of things. 20 amps at 220v is actually a pretty decent amount power.

Welders can take a lot of power though.

The manufacturer may say something is 3 hp, but as I understand it that's because there is a capacitor storing energy and releasing that stored energy. When that energy releases the total power for a brief period of time may be 3 hp but if you are running said router on a 15 amp circuit it is not 3 hp in the sense of constant power. I look instead at motor plates for amperage draw and max amperage draw to make my decisions

For context, I have 38 led lights (4ft tube) on one 15 amp 110v circuit. Yes it's maxed out. But that's a lot of light on one circuit! I can also run a grinder on this circuit! Sometimes it does flip the breaker, sometimes not! I don't use that outlet very often obviously. Just wanted to throw that in there because 15 amp is more than may appear.

[mike stenson]

Why are 220 circuits expensive? Seems to me that the copper's the same cost, the breakers are about the same, as are the outlets. Three phase is, but really because there's more conductors.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I have a 50 amp sub panel with mostly 120v outlets and lights, but it also has a 50 amp outlet for my grandfather's old tombstone welder. I can't use it in the shop anyway because the shop has a wooden floor, but I plug it in in there, near the door, and run the leads outside. I don't have a lot of need to weld anymore. At the farm it was much more frequent.

[andrew whicker]

Why are 220 circuits expensive? Seems to me that the copper's the same cost, the breakers are about the same, as are the outlets. Three phase is, but really because there's more conductors.

Well the outlets and breakers are more expensive. They use up more real estate in the panel. If you have a machine w a magnetic switch you need a neutral. 220 plugs are variable depending on the machine amperage requirement.

I guess I just don't see a generic 220 v outlet. I have a TIG welder that can draw up to 60 amps! I have a sander that pulls less than 15. I think my old planer used a 20 amp plug. My TS uses a 220v plug w a neutral.

[Tom Trees]

Worth noting the title, if wishing to buy an unsafe machine (by UK/EU reg standards, that is)
Certainly not overthinking, if not factoring in how things are done in the UK, i.e, a much different kettle of fish.
I suggest you read up UK tablesaw threads, and make a pair of 450mm long push sticks,

If not wanting to go searching for those archives on say the UKworkshop forum, then at least look up HSE UK circular saw articles,
bearing in mind, there is much assumed being the norm, which certainly is not the case with machines in the USA.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
Or
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

And some links to the UK forum, which has many great threads in the archives
Might as well number them for folks wanting to study, in no particular order...
1
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/just-use-the-blade-guard.129299/
2
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/push-sticks-again.134819/
3
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/how-do-these-cuts-not-cause-kick-back.134376/
4
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saw-crown-guard-angle.104772/
5
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/why-is-this-dangerous-kit-being-advertised-on-here.145770/
6
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/tablesaw-safety.119840/#post-1316680
7
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/kickback-ouch-that-hurt.5111/page-2#post-55548
8
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/saw-stop.113506/#post-1237571
9
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/new-us-table-saw-injury-report-statistics.39610/#post-464040
10
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/how-to-use-push-sticks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/
11
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/good-reason-to-leave-your-table-saw-guard-on.133301/
12
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saw-accident-week.34693/#post-398582
13
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/saw-stop-usa.145976/
14
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/dado-cutters-please-what-is-so-dangerous-about-them.10490/
15
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/table-saws-riving-knives-and-how-to-trench-cut.132631/#post-1504540
16
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/just-use-the-blade-guard.129299/
17
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/
18
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/why-safety-goggles-are-important.122446/#post-1352165
19
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/riving-knife-higher-than-the-blade-potential-mod.118878/
20
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/push-blocks.107009/

Pity that site was sold off to an untrustworthy deceitful conglomerate, as many of the frequent posters have left since.

And I could probably find another dozen links for you, if you liked.
Worth seeing how folks do things across the pond.
Posting here mainly, as it would be a dis-service to newcomers not to be mentioning how to use a tablesaw as safely as possible.
All the above, very likely to the disdain of folks who've got a soft spot for those unsafe machines.

Your fingers, your choice.
I suggest to seek something out with a "true riving knife" and not a splitter.
They've been selling saws equipped with such for some time now in the USA, so it should be possible to find something on the used market...
Especially with the Sawstop likely influencing matters, i.e in schools and such.

Good luck, and all the best.
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Why are 220 circuits expensive? Seems to me that the copper's the same cost, the breakers are about the same, as are the outlets. Three phase is, but really because there's more conductors.
240v breakers (double pole) are indeed more expensive than the single pole breakers used for 120v circuits. So are receptacles and plugs, although what type you choose matters there. I use Twist Locks on 240v circuits. BUT....I also evolved to a system where the majority of my 240v equipment is on a single 30 amp circuit (covers all the bases for the kinds of machines I use) and only things like DC, Compressor and MiniSplit get dedicated 240v circuits. All branching is done in large j-boxes up high so it's "darn easy" to be able to move existing or add additional drops should I acquire more tools. Now this works for a one person, single phase shop. Multi-person shops will need more granular 240v circuits.

[jack duren]

I payed $1600 for my Unisaw and you would be lucky to get mine for $1500 if I was selling.

[mike stenson]

I payed $1600 for my Unisaw and you would be lucky to get mine for $1500 if I was selling.

Here they're worth about $500.

[mike stenson]

240v breakers (double pole) are indeed more expensive than the single pole breakers used for 120v circuits. So are receptacles and plugs, although what type you choose matters there. I use Twist Locks on 240v circuits. BUT....I also evolved to a system where the majority of my 240v equipment is on a single 30 amp circuit (covers all the bases for the kinds of machines I use) and only things like DC, Compressor and MiniSplit get dedicated 240v circuits. All branching is done in large j-boxes up high so it's "darn easy" to be able to move existing or add additional drops should I acquire more tools. Now this works for a one person, single phase shop. Multi-person shops will need more granular 240v circuits.

More expensive, yes. Not outrageously more expensive, as in not even remotely close to twice the price locally. While I'm at it, the mag switch on my unisaw spec's (and was originally wired for) no neutral.

That's roughly how my shop is wired. It's really very, very common to daisy chain 240v circuits.

[jack duren]

Here they're worth about $500.


They say that till they have to find one.I have the receipt and it’s one owner.

try and find a Biesemeyer fence

[Jim Becker]

While I'm at it, the mag switch on my unisaw spec's (and was originally wired for) no neutral.

That's roughly how my shop is wired. It's really very, very common to daisy chain 240v circuits.

240v power tools generally do not use a neutral unless they have a 120v component, like an integral light or 120v outlets. (my CNC machine is an example of the exception because it requires both 240v and 120v on the same supply so it uses a four wire 240v circuit with a neutral) Yes, 240v can be "daisy chained", but it's a heck of a lot easier to do drops from j-boxes, especially when using 10 gage wire for 30 amp capacity. Even 12 gage for 20 amp can be ornery and especially when using the larger twist lock terminations that really fill a box. That said, it's good to have multiple ways of accomplishing things!

[Warren Lake]

1,600.00 for a used Unisaw? US dollars? Used SCM small sliders are no more than that. They have a good fence. My cabinet saws have Besmeiyers they are better than what they came with new but.

[jack duren]

$1600 new….


What do you call a small slider?

[Warren Lake]

there are three or four models one I got SI16 SF. 1,250.00 canadian and he would have taken less. I didnt ask for less but he expected it. I knew the price was fair as it was. Ive likely seen five sell for under 2k canadian in the last year or two. Most had a different and likely better slider system than this but it still works fine. Only been on generals but the SCM is five or more ways better than them.

[Patrick Kane]

Here they're worth about $500.

I somewhat agree with Mike, but i also want to clarify that not all Unisaws were made equal.

The old 1-1.5hp bullet motors with the jet lock fences are definitely $500ish. It isnt a unicorn to find one, here are three.
(5) Marketplace - Delta cabinet maker table saw | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1609247039851695?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad44e29ab-440e-467e-b43d-16cbe9a567a9)
(5) Marketplace - Delta Unisaw (table saw) | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/882209943383627/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad44e29ab-440e-467e-b43d-16cbe9a567a9)
(5) Marketplace - cabinet table saw 10” | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/7354023154680216/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad44e29ab-440e-467e-b43d-16cbe9a567a9)

However, i think it is somewhat of a unicorn to find the 3-5hp single phase 'newer' unisaw from the 70s-2000s for $500. I remember years ago buying them for $200+/- at auction(3 phase), swapping them for single phase motors/controls and reselling them for $1300-1500. I did that 5-6 times, i bet. Looks like they are in the $1000-1500 range still with a bies or unifence. (5) Marketplace - Delta unisaw table saw | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/921050916398718/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad44e29ab-440e-467e-b43d-16cbe9a567a9)

If you have about $1000-1500 to commit to a saw, i think you would be best suited to a used unisaw. Powermatics always seem to command several hundred more. Ive owned two PM72s, but i havent had the pleasure of using a 66. I know they weigh 50lbs more than a unisaw, but they are most likely a very similar machine. I never cared too much about the left tilt versus right tilt discussion. They each have their advantage/disadvantage depending on the cut being made.

What kind of cabinet doors/drawers are you making? Shaker, or do you plan on getting a shaper/router table too?

[jack duren]

The Unisaws in the links are older. The PM is like the Chevy vs ford. It’s always higher and doesn’t do any more, the 72 is too much saw unless you need the blade height..

[Rod Sheridan]

The largest machines I own are 3Kw/4HP.

As an Electrical Technologist I took a more cost effective route.

At intervals around the 2 walls I have 4” square deep boxes with a 20 ampere 120 volt duplex receptacle and a 20 ampere 240 volt receptacle fed from one 2 pole 20A GFCI breaker.

I have a 15A circuit for lighting and a 20A 240 volt circuit for my cyclone, that’s it.

The above gives me 2 20 ampere 120 volt circuits for portable power tools and a 20 ampere 240 volt circuit for machinery.

All devices are straight blade, locking receptacles are a waste of space and money unless ceiling mounted in combination with a strain relief such as a Kellems grip.

Regards, Rod

[Dave Sabo]

I doubt it. There will be competition, but they ain’t stupid enough to give it away cheap..

I think you just want options.

You'll likely be waiting a good while longer - and may not even see what you seek.

The SS patent(s) that keep other players from joining the game are a moving target and will almost certainly keep the competition on the sidelines for the foreseeable future.

n.b. - there is at least one competing tech on the market now but it only comes on sliders costing $50k +/- and it ain't trickling down to hobbyist level.

[jack duren]

Right now Sawstop has the market. We can’t all buy sliders…

[Paul McGaha]

I think where you live has a lot to do with what might be available on craigslist and marketplace. I used to live in Ashburn, VA. A suburb of Washington, DC. That was an excellent used tool market. Lots of money in the area I suppose. Tools in really good shape consistently available.

In 2021 we moved to Raleigh/Durham area. I'd say a lesser used tool market here. Really well taken care of tools are i'd say the exception rather than the rule. Most of the tools for sale here are really worn or neglected rather than something you'd want to buy.

PHM

[Warren Lake]

probably a function of a number of things. IM not far from Toronto and lots of shops have gone down over the years, likely towards or over 100 id think and that gives us a chance at machinery that is up and running in production usually at the time they do an auction. being set up to travel and move stuff is good.

[Patty Hann]

240v breakers (double pole) are indeed more expensive than the single pole breakers used for 120v circuits. So are receptacles and plugs, although what type you choose matters there. I use Twist Locks on 240v circuits. BUT....I also evolved to a system where the majority of my 240v equipment is on a single 30 amp circuit (covers all the bases for the kinds of machines I use) and only things like DC, Compressor and MiniSplit get dedicated 240v circuits. All branching is done in large j-boxes up high so it's "darn easy" to be able to move existing or add additional drops should I acquire more tools. Now this works for a one person, single phase shop. Multi-person shops will need more granular 240v circuits.

Are your 120V ckts 20A or 30A?
Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Are your 120V ckts 20A or 30A?
Thanks
120v is all 20 amp. I'd never do 30 amp 120v unless there was a specific, dedicated application that required it, but I'd prefer 240v at that point if the application allowed it. Coincidentally, there actually is a 30 amp 120v circuit in the garage of this house that the previous owner cobbled together for his "workbench" for some reason. Thankfully, he used the correct wire...which amazed me because of all the other bogus stuff he did in the house that I had to correct right after we moved in. Scary things like...splices in walls with wire nuts. In my shop, the only tools that use 120v are handhelds including the router table, my drum sander and the miter saw that I rarely use. Oh, and chargers.

[Patty Hann]

120v is all 20 amp. I'd never do 30 amp 120v unless there was a specific, dedicated application that required it, but I'd prefer 240v at that point if the application allowed it. Coincidentally, there actually is a 30 amp 120v circuit in the garage of this house that the previous owner cobbled together for his "workbench" for some reason. Thankfully, he used the correct wire...which amazed me because of all the other bogus stuff he did in the house that I had to correct right after we moved in. Scary things like...splices in walls with wire nuts. In my shop, the only tools that use 120v are handhelds including the router table, my drum sander and the miter saw that I rarely use. Oh, and chargers.

Thanks for the reply and explanation.

I'm going to be wiring my garage , which a the moment only has a ceiling outlet for the light. '
For the foreseeable future I will be using all 120V tools with the possible exception of the DC
The rewiring will include both 120V and 240V (a couple of the 240V ones being dedicated) (100A subpanel) .

My concern is for things like my Dewalt 7480 (JS saw), Miter saw and a [120V] planer.
I'm concerned that the inrush current for any one of those will trip a 20A breaker.

[Jim Becker]

Patty, all those tools should work fine on a 20 amp circuit as that's what they are designed for...used alone. If you use a 120v DC, it will need a separate circuit from the 120v tool you are using in the moment. Most folks like to have two 20 amp 120v circuits for utility in the shop, anyway. Again, on the 240v side, dedicate what must be dedicated and share what can be shared since you are only one person. I learned that lesson because at the old shop, my mind had be do all dedicated circuits and when you add up the extra breakers and complexity, it's just not worth it (at least to me) for a one person shop. By using a single 30 amp 240v circuit in my new shop for all the tools that I can only use one at a time, I cover all the bases. Some folks might prefer dedicated, but I chose otherwise. Only the DC, Compressor, CNC and MiniSpit have dedicated 240v feeds.

[Patty Hann]

Patty, all those tools should work fine on a 20 amp circuit as that's what they are designed for...used alone. If you use a 120v DC, it will need a separate circuit from the 120v tool you are using in the moment. Most folks like to have two 20 amp 120v circuits for utility in the shop, anyway. Again, on the 240v side, dedicate what must be dedicated and share what can be shared since you are only one person. I learned that lesson because at the old shop, my mind had be do all dedicated circuits and when you add up the extra breakers and complexity, it's just not worth it (at least to me) for a one person shop. By using a single 30 amp 240v circuit in my new shop for all the tools that I can only use one at a time, I cover all the bases. Some folks might prefer dedicated, but I chose otherwise. Only the DC, Compressor, CNC and MiniSpit have dedicated 240v feeds.

Very very good advice, Jim. Thank you.
I pretty much planned to do as you describe, i.e. dedicate ckts only when necessary, but I was on the fence about the 120V lines being 20A or 30A.
20A will be cheaper, fer shure, fer shure. :)

[Warren Lake]

the tool will tell you. I took a milwaukee metal cutting chop saw back and they checked it said it was fine. We could not figure it out till I talked to a car builder and his was on a 30 amp circuit. I went to either a 20 or 30 and it was fine from then on.

[Jim Becker]

Since you "only" have a 100 amp panel, things will fit better that way, too. :) I actually have a lot of space in my 200 amp panel, but it worked out pretty nicely that I kept all the 120v stuff at the top of the panel (all GFCI breakers) and all the 240v stuff at the bottom of the panel. This plays well with my, um...anal...tendancies. LOL

[Michael Burnside]

Very very good advice, Jim. Thank you.
I pretty much planned to do as you describe, i.e. dedicate ckts only when necessary, but I was on the fence about the 120V lines being 20A or 30A.
20A will be cheaper, fer shure, fer shure. :)

Just do 20A 120V and use 4 gang outlets so 2 are on one 20A circuit and 2 are on another. That way you could run a collector and X tool at the same time in the same relative location. My detached shop is setup this way and I have zero regrets. For a short time I had a 735 and it was just fine.

[Anuj Prateek]

Hobbyist here.

My order of preference was SawStop PCS > PM 1000 > Grizzly > Unisaw. After reading threads it came down to PCS v/s Grizzly. Did not see any reason to buy PM over SS to save few hundred dollars. Between PCS and Grizzly, it was about - spending several hundred dollars on safety or not.

I ended up prioritizing safety. It delayed few other purchases but I am happy with the decision.

Table saw is a long term investment (that's how I see it) - if needed wait a few months before purchase.

[Bill Dufour]

It is easy and cheap enough to upgrade to a 200 amp panel with lots of room for more breakers if you do it before you start pulling all the new wires. Look for used panels with breakers on the bay. Will your inspector require all arc fault and gfci. If so used may not be the cheap way.
BilL D

[Jim Becker]

It is easy and cheap enough to upgrade to a 200 amp panel with lots of room for more breakers if you do it before you start pulling all the new wires. Look for used panels with breakers on the bay. Will your inspector require all arc fault and gfci. If so used may not be the cheap way.
BilL D
The physical panel might be a reasonable cost upgrade, but there are other factors that make electrical service things like that expensive these days, especially in certain jurisdictions.

[Bill Dufour]

I agree that a panel upgrade can cost a lot. But if he is going to add a bunch of new wires anyway a new panel is not that much more work. AFAIK there is no requirement that a 200 amp panel be supplied with more then 30 amps or so. Of course the supply amps will limit the amount of amps that can be drawn from the 200 amp panel at any one time.
My garage has two 100 amp panels fed from one 30 amp line. Waiting to pull a 60 amp line to be able to run my 7.5Hp planer to full capacity.
Bill D
Bill D

[jack duren]

I pulled 95amp wire around the house and put in a 100 amp box. Not too bad.

when I need to do work on the box ,I just turn off the 100 amp breaker at the 200amp panel

[Patty Hann]

Just do 20A 120V and use 4 gang outlets so 2 are on one 20A circuit and 2 are on another. That way you could run a collector and X tool at the same time in the same relative location. My detached shop is setup this way and I have zero regrets. For a short time I had a 735 and it was just fine.

OK thank you.... I will note that on my plans :)

[Bill Dufour]

I did similar. I thought having two sets of wires in and out of a box would be a lot of work so.. I used a single receptacle box basically on every other stud. They alternated which circuit suppled them. So any two adjacent outlets are on different breakers. Plug in tool and vac to nearby outlets and they are on different outlets.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

PS: I found WAGO electric splices are easier to use then traditional wire nuts.
Bill D

[David Dille]

I have a Makita track saw and a Harvey 3 hp cabinet saw. Love them both. Harvey has, by far, the best customer service and delivery system that I have ever experienced.

That being said, I would get a good track saw, Milwaukee, DeWalt, Makita, etc. for sheet goods. I never throw a full, or even a half sheet on my table saw anymore. I would then get Dewalt DWE7491RS contractor’s saw. $550 at Lowe’s right now. I had one and for what you want to do, it would be perfect for you, IMHO.

My Dewalt TS handled the 8” dado set without issue. I resisted getting a track saw for years, kick myself for that. $800 including the tracks and connection kit. Very glad I got it.

[David Dille]

If you have the option to run new wire, I highly recommend putting in at least a 20 amp 220 volt instead of your 2 15 amp circuits. You can also use a double breaker if you just don’t have enough space in your box. Chances are you wil only be running one tool and your DC at any one time.

[Stephen McBride]

Thank you everyone for the continued responses. Had a lead on a PM 66 locally that I was too slow to come up with the cash for but a barely used Shop Fox W1888 came up near me for $900 with a 2 HP dust collector for an additional $150. I checked it out and the size was right for me and the projects I see myself doing and minus some rust on the cast iron it really looked like it had barely been used. Cut clean, straight and smooth.

Got it moved to my garage yesterday and rebuilt the rails, fence and dust collection. Currently being adapted to 110v by an adapter the previous/ original owner had. Not sure how comfy I am with just the adapter so I’m gonna have an electrician come by next week to install a 230v circuit for it as well as start runs for 110v so I can install more outlets and lights.

I know no one mentioned a Shop Fox and I honestly don’t know how great it is. Was a little nervous about that fact but after making some cuts and feeling out the size, for the price it felt like the perfect saw for me and my hobbyist garage shop. First project is a 4x6 outfeed table. Thinking double 1” MDF with a laminate top and the bones of a base to accommodate drawers in the future as well as dog holes in the top.

Money saved, especially on the DC, gets to help pay for electrician, track saw, paint sprayer and parallel clamps. Gonna eventually get a router table setup for the wing.

Currently have a 8” Freud thin kerf rip blade that I had in my buddy’s jobsite saw. When the time comes I’ll get a proper 10” Forrest WWII to be able to not worry about blade sharpness for the amount of use it will get.

Previous owner also had some leftover 8/4 8” white oak, about 20’ of it he gave to me as he was moving and was just gonna throw it out. S4S so I’m using that to make me feel better about the cost to move the saw…

Thanks again for all the comments and wisdom!

[Michael Burnside]

Congrats. Looking forward to some posts of the setup and projects you create thereafter.

[Bill Dufour]

Except for saw stop and the fence not much has changed in a cabinet saw since 1938 when the Unisaw came out. It was designed from the ground up for a internal motor never line shaft. A jet should be fine as long as nothing is broken.
Bill D

[Aaron Inami]

Hey Stephen,

That sounds great. I took a look at the W1888 and it seems like a much better version of the Grizzly G0899 that I mentioned in my post way back in the beginning of this thread. Not as robust as a Powermatic PM66, but significantly better than a contractor table saw!

Since you are having an electrician come by for re-wiring, I would highly recommend having him replace the stock power switch with a good magnetic switch (my recommendation below). This is the same kind of switch that is normally installed on all the traditional Powermatic/Jet cabinet saws.

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Horn-18823-220-240-Volt-18-26-Amp/dp/B002LVUWHM/

The stock power switch on that W1888 is a safety issue. If you lose A/C power, the saw will stop, obviously. However, when A/C power is restored, the saw motor will automatically start running again (major safety issue). The magnetic switch above will release the contactor when you lose power so that the saw will NOT automatically restart after power is restored. I have no idea why Grizzly is putting manual switches on their tablesaws, but it's definitely not a good idea.

Oh, I did mention the Harvey Sliding table option. I believe that it should bolt onto this W1888 saw as well since it uses the same bolt hole type and pattern on the cast iron wing. It's definitely a huge help if you are cutting plywood sheets. Something to think about for possible future upgrade, lol.
https://www.harveywoodworking.com/products/compass-st-1500-sliding-table?variant=37784413077687