Levels: Curiosity?

[Carroll Courtney]

More of curiosity questions:
Does price indicate the accuracy of level or material it’s made out of or both? To me if bubble between lines and equal on both sides of line then it’s level or plum. Right?
I have few projects coming up where a 6’ level would be nice. Once these projects are done then it be occasional uses after that. I have craftsman 2’ level that’s about 30 plus yrs old which is all I have. I bet it is as accurate as these 300.00 levels that HD sales.
I see price of levels are all over place from 20.00 and up to moon. If you needed say just general purpose level, what would you buy? Yes I am looking at Harbor Freight for 6’ level
Suggestion and thoughts please

[Dave Sabo]

Of course it's an indicator. It's also gives you insight into the consistency of the quality level that product is delivering.

It IS NOT an absolute guarantee though.


Go to the Harbor or the Depot and test 5 levels and you're very likely to find at least one that's off. Good thing you only need one of the 5. Go to the speciality shop and test 5 Stabilas and you'll almost certainly not find one out of spec. Does that warrant spending 10-20x the price of the HF 6 footer ?



To me if bubble between lines and equal on both sides of line then it’s level or plum. Right?

Yup ! The Romans built up the world using the same logic.

My answer too your question is : I'd buy a Stabile if I was going to use it again and again...........and that's exactly what I've done. However, if I just need a tool for one project only I'd get the HF and live with less creature comforts and inferior feel. And , I've done that too.

[Jim Becker]

The bubble centered only tells you that the vial that the bubble is in is level...it doesn't tell you if the "level is level". That's where quality comes into play for both accuracy and sometimes for durability, too. So I'm in agreement with Dave. There is no harm, particularly for "non professional use" in selecting a mass market product, but if there are five on the shelf, check all five to see if they register the same. If one is off, don't pick that one because "most likely", it's not assembled accurately. If you are going to be doing professional/commercial work or prefer what is normally "the best" because it will get a lot of hard use, go for the top quality brand like Stabila.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I am happy with cheap levels. I bought a Stanley 4' level about 9 or 10 years ago and have used it for several buildings and some repairs. If the level reads the same when you turn it end for end, then it's accurate, as I understand it.

[Tom M King]

I have a bunch of levels for different purposes including some good ones and some cheap ones. I needed a 3' one for tiling a shower but of course you can't find them easily. I bought a cheap plastic four foot level from Lowes and cut it down. I checked it in the store. It's perfect for that job with the plastic being very easy to clean the mortar off of. Just check them in the store before you buy one. The digital ones are very handy for some things, but those only get used and have batteries put in them when I need one. The more expensive ones are generally just made to put up with rougher handling.

My most used level is this one: https://www.johnsonlevel.com/P/1625/12BigJMagneticTorpedoLevel


https://www.lowes.com/pd/Johnson-Level-12-in-Magnetic-Torpedo-Level/1000085627?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-ggl-_-PMAX_TOL_000_Priority_Items-_-1000085627-_-local-_-0-_-0&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57MbMdAQ8IIhaebLG-VXHBccZpOyxFa0wpoPZZPCF43DfsZ-3PwSucnxoCTIMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Rich Engelhardt]

I am happy with cheap levels. I bought a Stanley 4' level about 9 or 10 years ago and have used it for several buildings and some repairs. If the level reads the same when you turn it end for end, then it's accurate, as I understand it.
That's how I check mine.

When I was putting in a drop ceiling, I used a section of cross piece about 5 ft. long with a torpedo level two faced taped to it.
It worked as well if not better than the 4' Johnson plastic level I had.

[jack duren]

The bubble centered only tells you that the vial that the bubble is in is level...it doesn't tell you if the "level is level". That's where quality comes into play for both accuracy and sometimes for durability, too. So I'm in agreement with Dave. There is no harm, particularly for "non professional use" in selecting a mass market product, but if there are five on the shelf, check all five to see if they register the same. If one is off, don't pick that one because "most likely", it's not assembled accurately. If you are going to be doing professional/commercial work or prefer what is normally "the best" because it will get a lot of hard use, go for the top quality brand like Stabila.


Do you know how to check your level? if I bought another level, it would be a CRICK..

[Mark Wooden]

Do you know how to check your level? if I bought another level, it would be a CRICK..

Ive had a Crick level, made in Missouri, for over 20 years now; an excellent tool, when I purchased it I wanted it to be the last level I'd ever buy and it has been.
I don't have a six foot level, I've made a few different straight edges that the level clamps to in 79', 83", 95" for door jambs etc.. If you'll only need a six foot length ocassionally, this may be a more affordable and customizable option. A four foot level fits in the cab of my truck., a six footer wont
Another good level brand is Sands; I was given one a few years ago after a garage clean out and its a nice level.
All wood levels like mine do require an amount of care- kept clean and an oil treatment once in a while; if that doesnt sound like what you'd like, Stabila is a good choice I think and they warrant their vials.

[Larry Edgerton]

Over the years I have had them all, and all I have now is Stabila. They just stay true. They are not bothered by bad weather or humidity swings. Bubble fits the lines and is easy to see. Not sure I could justify if I was a hobbyist, but as a pro they are a one time buy.

I do have a Bosch electronic angle level, kinda clumsy but has been accurate for about 30 years.

[jack duren]

I’m not sure if CRICK still does, but tyey use to offer custom made levels. I had several trim carpenter friends who swore by them. One had to have bubbles replaced. He sent it in and came back like new.,great company, but not cheap..

[mike stenson]

You certainly don't need a level with an accuracy of 0.0005"/ft. Nor does it sound like you need a custom level, or one that's built to survive daily use.

[jack duren]

You certainly don't need a level with an accuracy of 0.0005"/ft. Nor does it sound like you need a custom level, or one that's built to survive daily use.


need and want are totally different. If it’s helping me make a living, I may choose to have a custom level. I don’t need it, but I may want it..

[Richard Coers]

What you pay and what is good enough is your decision. Personally, I would not buy a level from Harbor Freight. If I did I would check it for level the minute I got home. You might have to buy 3 to get a good one. I bought a Bridge City level decades ago for machinery setup. I took it in to my day job when they bought a 5'x10'x3' Z axis CNC router. The factory rep showed up with a super quality Starrett machine level and didn't change a thing.

[mike stenson]

need and want are totally different. If it’s helping me make a living, I may choose to have a custom level. I don’t need it, but I may want it..

Did I miss that you were the original poster jack?

[Mark Hennebury]

If you want accuracy you need to understand the principles on which it relies. First rule of thumb don't trust, check and verify. Whatever price you pay for your level, always assume that it is not perfect and as has been stated by several people, always flip it 180 degrees to confirm. Same as for vertical, check on both sides of a post.

[Cameron Wood]

Level vials are not all the same- there are different levels (pun) of sensitivity as well as accuracy.

The straightness of the beam is also a factor. Sometimes the biggest difference between an expensive level and a cheap one is the readability of the vials.

My door level (78") is old and the vials are hard to read and only some are accurate, so I use it as a straightedge, holding another level against it- usually a Stabila torpedo one.

[jack duren]

Did I miss that you were the original poster jack?


Did I miss it’s an open conversation.. I didn’t see that you directed that the OP..

[Mark Hennebury]

Don't forget plumbobs and water hose levels.

515349515350

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Carrol, I have a Stabilia that’s about 6 feet long that only was used for battery installation.

When you have 24 tons of wet cells on racks, the racks need to be shimmed to close tolerances, I’ve never needed that for woodworking although I have to admit, that level, and a Festool vacuum with a CT wings makes curtain rods a breeze.

My suggestion is to buy a high quality level once in your life, pay enough money that it forces you to treat it with respect, and store it, and transport it carefully

Regards, Rod.

[ray grundhoefer]

Funny story about levels. When I was building my pole shed I had a cousin who was a carpenter helping me. He said he could not figure out why the poles were not staying plumb. I took his level, flipped it 180 degrees and held it back up against the pole and he said okay thats better. Later in life he became a building inspector.

[Tom M King]

For some jobs a cheap level is a good choice. I wouldn't want to use a good level for this job I did a few days as a step in forming a shower floor in a rental house that was at some point a converted agricultural building on a slab. I like using good ones for some jobs, and cheap plastic for others.

[andrew whicker]

For installing cabs, I do like the thought of a Stabila (I like nice tools like everyone else). Right now, I have Empire, etc from the box stores. They work fine. 2ft, 4ft, and 6ft.

I think the Stabila is more a cool factor than anything (for me). It is faster than a laser and a tape for level, but at the same time a level can't give you height so you need the laser anyway. Also, when using levels you are generally doing something with it where the chance of it falling and hitting the ground is fairly high. Not sure how I would feel about dropping a $150+ level or how I would feel loading into my truck (maybe after I upgrade to an organized van, ha!).

Anyway, I can install cabs pretty darn well w/ a standard level and a reasonable cost laser and stand. In fact, I just upgraded my laser w/ the latest big for me job I got vs spending money towards a better level (if that tells you anything).

I would most definitely already have a digital Stabila if I did stair work. OTH, I have used cheap digital torpedo levels and Wixey's on the very small amount of stair projects I have done. They work too (for something like a straight hand rail slope). Not a perfect solution, but pretty decent and a lot cheaper.

[jack duren]

For installing cabinetry, I used a Johnson’s wood level for almost 20 years. I found one side wasnt level anymore and the reason I started looking for a CRICK. When I got into furniture full time, I found it wasn’t that important and forgot about it.

[Mark Wooden]

Don't forget plumbobs and water hose levels.

515349515350
Yes; I still hang most doors with one, and have them in several weights. Also used them a lot in framing. But, I didnt mention them because too many people these days say that its too old school and slow. But, I am old school and taking my time is a luxury I allow myself these days. And, apart from any arguments about speed, its tough to argue against gravity.....

[Mark Hennebury]

With a plumbob, a stringline and a story stick you can build just about anything. Keep in mind that plumbobs point to the center of the earth, so two plumblines a distance apart wont be exactly parallel 😁But they will be pretty close.

515354515355515357


Yes; I still hang most doors with one, and have them in several weights. Also used them a lot in framing. But, I didnt mention them because too many people these days say that its too old school and slow. But, I am old school and taking my time is a luxury I allow myself these days. And, apart from any arguments about speed, its tough to argue against gravity.....

[Larry Edgerton]

I still use a water level. Goes around corners, battery never goes dead. A couple of drops of dish soap in the water gets rid of the surface tension. I made mine with a 3' pipe with a viewing tube on the side, and about 1 1/2 gallon capacity so it is not so sensitive to loss. I use RV antifreeze, easier to see and I can store it out in the unheated barn.

[Aaron Inami]

One of the things I like about Stabila is that they are machined flat. You can tell this by the swirl marks on the aluminum edge from the machining. This is not like cheapo levels that just have a fold-over aluminum edge.

[Mel Fulks]

Over the years I’ve worked with a bunch of old timers. They would set the level on something ,and call it good. They seldom let go
of the level ‘cuz it might slide off.

[Michael Burnside]

Application is everything. I have a Johnson and Stabilla. When the material or environment can rough up the level and “looks level” is good enough I use the Johnson. When leveling something more critical, I use the Stabila.

Against my Startett 36” edge guide guaranteed ±0.0002" per foot, the Stabila appears dead flat while the Johnson has a few minor valleys. So in some circumstances this may be a problem assuming they are both “level” to their bubble.

I like to think the Stabila is made precisely to be precise and STAY that way when properly handled. Doesn’t mean you can’t get lucky with a cheapie, but you might not too.

[Bill Dufour]

Do not get fooled into getting a more sensitive machinist level. 0.005" per foot is often what a master precision level is called. Way too precise for wood working. That kind of sensitivity will have you chasing level all day long.
0.0005 will move as you walk up to read it because the concrete slab moves under you weight
Bill D

[Tom M King]

Yes, I inherited a lifetime machine tool accumulation which included a very nice machinist level (or several) in a nice box. I have never had a use for it yet, so it has stayed in the box as long as I have owned it except to take it out and marvel at it.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It would seem to me that for construction purposes having a level that is machined straight to a high level of precision would be irrelevant, because none of the materials being leveled will be as straight as even a cheap metal level.

[Rod Sheridan]

It would seem to me that for construction purposes having a level that is machined straight to a high level of precision would be irrelevant, because none of the materials being leveled will be as straight as even a cheap metal level.

True, however it sure can help when shimming casings……Regards, Rod.

[Marc Rochkind]

Just a comment about levels: As Jim said, accuracy depends on alignment of the tube with the body. The tube itself is going to be accurate. For a bubble level, precision depends on the size of the bubble. Long ago the machine shop where I worked used a bubble level to level the lathe, and its bubble was huge. So, when you shop, you might see some levels with larger bubbles than others. Larger is better.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I'm just wondering, are you saying it is more accurate if the tube is larger in diameter, or if the bubble is longer within the same tube diameter?

[Marc Rochkind]

I'm just wondering, are you saying it is more accurate if the tube is larger in diameter, or if the bubble is longer within the same tube diameter?

Not sure. Probably length and diameter are linked. What you want is more movement for a given angle change. (Precision, not accuracy.)

[Cameron Wood]

Vial sensitivity depends on the amount of curvature- more curve = less sensitive.

Accuracy depends on the straightness of the beam, and how the vial is set.

[andrew whicker]

Yeah, at the end of the day that's $150 - $200 I can use in retirement, going out to eat, vacation, concert etc.

Maybe I'll get one further down the road but every time I drool over one I inevitably come back to earth. Cool but even if I had to spend the money on tools, I'd get a nice rip glue line finish blade.

[Robert M Richardson]

Go to a level store that accepts returns and pick one out that's the length you want. Two things to check 1. Is it flat 2. Does the bubble repeatable. First to check flatness put two levels together face to face and check flatness or separation with feeler gauges, shim stock or paper. Then to check repeatability support the level between two points as far apart as possible (up to the level length obviously). Check the bubble position then turn it around and compare the bubble positions. If they are the same and the leveling surfaces are flat IMO you can't ask for more in the short term for construction work.

[Alan Lightstone]

How do the accuracy of digital levels compare to something like the Stabila? I pretty much always use digital levels these days, and outside of always trying to remember which way the arrow indicates the higher side is, I trust them.

[Aaron Inami]

How do the accuracy of digital levels compare to something like the Stabila? I pretty much always use digital levels these days, and outside of always trying to remember which way the arrow indicates the higher side is, I trust them.

It's expensive, but Stabila does have a digital level:
https://www.amazon.com/Stabila-36548-Electronic-Waterproof-Level/dp/B004O0TTTK/ref=sr_1_9

A comment in one of the Amazon reviews:

"For example after I've installed a kitchen island and it has been secured, I've left the level turned on, and noticed as I walked by the island the level will bounce back and forth from .00 to .05 degrees indicating a 1/32nd of an inch deviation in the floor from the weight of my footsteps."

[Jim Becker]

How do the accuracy of digital levels compare to something like the Stabila? I pretty much always use digital levels these days, and outside of always trying to remember which way the arrow indicates the higher side is, I trust them.
Stabila has a bunch of digital enhanced levels from small to very large plae-levels for building walls, etc. The appeal of Stabila is their level of quality, pardon the expression. They are not the only quality maker, but have a significant presence in the market for sure. Their laser systems are also top notch, from simple to sophisticated layout versions that locate multiple corners without moving the device.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... accuracy of digital levels ...

I you want accuracy in this realm, find a gunner's quadrant (M1 or M1918). Lives depend on them.

[roger wiegand]

Since we're talking levels, I have a stupid question. I bought an Empire level from the Borg and when I got it home after a while I figured out that they'd beveled the corners off of it making it pretty much impossible to strike a straight pencil line by registering the pencil on the corner of the level and surface to be marked the way I would with a level with square corners. Did I get a special purpose tool intended for something else, or is this just a bad design? All of my other levels have square corners.

I strongly suspect a big difference between cheap and expensive levels is how long they stay accurate, not so much are they accurate at the start.

[Tom M King]

I haven't found much difference in longevity between the good ones and cheap ones. I have some that aren't for marking lines by either, but don't remember which is which. Mine last pretty good unless they suffer some bad fate like one of my favorites. I had a set of Stanley magnesium levels from the 1970's that I really liked. They were very lightweight, nice and straight, easy to read, and accurate. In one move the long levels were laid in the back of the pickup, and somewhere along the way the 78" magnesium level got a crushed spot by the gooseneck hitch. That was probably my saddest tool loss. They stopped making them long ago.

[Tom M King]

Here is my most accurate level. It's a David White I bought in the mid 1970's. A scientist friend and I tested it for fun across a stretch of the lake the we determined on a map was 1/4 mile wide. We allowed for the curvature of the Earth being 8" per mile. Using 2" wide gaff tape on a target, it was about as close to dead on as we could determine on a day when the water was completely still. I have always used it for foundations and setting cabinets. Requires two people but makes a 1/16" division on a ruler look like it's a foot wide inside a house. It has never bounced around in a truck. I carry it in the cushioned case on a seat to where I need to use it. Still works like it did when it was new-automatic leveling once you get the bubble in the center.

It's a Builders Level, not a Transit. It only shows level, has very fine crosshairs, great optics, and I think it's 20 power but don't remember exactly.

[Mark Hennebury]

An old one, with a plumbob, and a spirit level one.

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I you want accuracy in this realm, find a gunner's quadrant (M1 or M1918). Lives depend on them.