Mouth too tight on wooden smoother

[Tony Wilkins]

I have a coffin smoother and the mouth is just too tight here in the dry high plains. I can’t get a shaving to pass. What’s the best way to open the mouth slightly?

[Jimmy Harris]

I've always just used a file. I don't know if it's the best, but it's what I've always done. Just make sure to file the part in front of the blade, not the bed it rests on, obviously. If a file wouldn't fit, then maybe sandpaper on a piece of metal shim stock? I guess you could use a chisel, but I've never tried it. But that mouth was likely created by a chisel.

[Mark Hennebury]

a picture is worth a thousand words.
The first thing, how thick of a shaving? Does it have a chip-breaker?
How much blade protruding from the sole.
Can you take a photo of the opening.
You can file the opening if it is really needed, but I would retract the blade to set for the absolute thinnest shaving first to see if you can get anything to go through.

[Tony Wilkins]

a picture is worth a thousand words.
The first thing, how thick of a shaving? Does it have a chip-breaker?
How much blade protruding from the sole.
Can you take a photo of the opening.
You can file the opening if it is really needed, but I would retract the blade to set for the absolute thinnest shaving first to see if you can get anything to go through.

I have tried to take a very thin shaving but can’t get it to take a shaving. Here’s the thousand words…
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[Mark Hennebury]

Does the plane have a chipbreaker?

[Tony Wilkins]

No, no chipbreaker. It is a single iron.

[Mark Hennebury]

This plane has a chipbreaker and a very small throat opening and can still take a pretty hefty shaving, so before filing i would suggest you do a thorough investigation of where the blockage is.
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[Mark Hennebury]

You don't need a big gap to squeeze a shaving through, this throat opening is tight enough to lift the plane up by the shaving.

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[Jim Koepke]

Tony, it appears your plane may have a problem with what is called the "wear." This is the intentional removal of material above the mouth of the plane.

More info on that here > https://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.com/2017/03/wood-planes-that-always-clog-and-wear.html

He muses about how he can, "smooth the wear angle with my 150 grit "float.""

It is as Jimmy Harris mentioned:
If a file wouldn't fit, then maybe sandpaper on a piece of metal shim stock?

Hoping this helps,

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

I’m not sure where else it could be blocked. It’s a simple tool. No chipbreaker and the wedge is well back.515302

[Mark Hennebury]

It may be that the throat angle is sloped towards the blade inside. so file the angle back, but keep the opening the same.

[Jim Koepke]

One more thing, when working the wear on one of my planes, it is often given a bit of waxing with a furniture wax and oil mixture. This also helps shavings to slide over an area instead of getting caught on any wood grain.

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

It may need some clearance inside. Change that angle, but don't make the opening any wider.

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[Warren Mickley]

One thing that happens on tight mouth wooden planes is the the edge of the sole in front of the iron gets rounded over. It gets more wear with a tight mouth. If it is not a crisp corner, shavings can get trapped at that spot and not exit very well through the mouth.

[Rafael Herrera]

I've never seen one of these planes in actual use, but I've heard of them. That was Larry Williams company.

These planes rely on a tight mouth to mitigate tear out. Larry touted them as the epitome of western plane design. The double iron obsoleted them.

Before you start rasping away at the mouth, I'd check that the iron is sharp and that the cutting bevel is less than 35 degrees. What is the iron bed angle, 45 degrees?

Perhaps you can relieve the corners of the iron a little bit to make things easier and take as fine shavings as you can with the plane as it is and let us know how it is behaving. It probably is obvious to state, but you're limited in the thickness of the shavings you can take by the size of that mouth.

Keep the geometry of the mouth as close to the original as you can. Pay attention to area indicated by the arrow in Mark Hennebury's picture if and when you decide to use a file, like a mill bastard, not a rasp, you want to be slow and deliberate.

[Tony Wilkins]

I've never seen one of these planes in actual use, but I've heard of them. That was Larry Williams company.

These planes rely on a tight mouth to mitigate tear out. Larry touted them as the epitome of western plane design. The double iron obsoleted them.

Before you start rasping away at the mouth, I'd check that the iron is sharp and that the cutting bevel is less than 35 degrees. What is the iron bed angle, 45 degrees?

Perhaps you can relieve the corners of the iron a little bit to make things easier and take as fine shavings as you can with the plane as it is and let us know how it is behaving. It probably is obvious to state, but you're limited in the thickness of the shavings you can take by the size of that mouth.

Keep the geometry of the mouth as close to the original as you can. Pay attention to area indicated by the arrow in Mark Hennebury's picture if and when you decide to use a file, like a mill bastard, not a rasp, you want to be slow and deliberate.
It is an Old street. I never try to take thick shavings. It worked great in Kansas but here in dry west Texas I’ve yet to get it to work. I spent a long time once here to get the blade to fit on the bed, slowly filing the width of the blade down. I’ll try the corners before I work on the body. I know the blade is freshly sharpened but I don’t recall what angle I did it at. I bet the plane is bedded at 55*.

[David Carroll]

I have that exact same plane, mine was made when they were Clark & Williams. It is an extremely fine mouth, probably about a 64th-inch. Mine will allow a fine shaving to pass, I keep it for difficult grain because of the high bed angle. When I say fine shaving it's more of the lacy gossamer fluffy type than it is a proper curly shaving.

If you open it up, light strokes with a fine mill file, a few at a time are all you need. I'd shoot for something less than 1/64th inch (about 15 thousandths) that should let a reasonable shaving pass.

DC

[Warren Mickley]

Somebody earlier suggested that the plane may be jamming at the corners of the mouth. You could test that by planing the edge of a board right down the middle of the plane.

I suspect that you are just taking too thick a shaving for the size of the opening. A change in humidity would not change the size of the opening in front of the blade, but it could make things temporarily hard to adjust. I would just keep trying to take a lighter cut.

[Tony Wilkins]

Somebody earlier suggested that the plane may be jamming at the corners of the mouth. You could test that by planing the edge of a board right down the middle of the plane.

I suspect that you are just taking too thick a shaving for the size of the opening. A change in humidity would not change the size of the opening in front of the blade, but it could make things temporarily hard to adjust. I would just keep trying to take a lighter cut.
I’ll certainly try that. It was a sweet working plane in Kansas where we lived by the river there in Leavenworth. I just haven’t gotten it to work since we’ve been back in Texas. Tried to be very careful as I took the blade down to fit back on the bed. Certainly not looking forward to taking any tool to the body n

[Steve Voigt]

Tony, please don't file the mouth. As Warren suggested, rounding the corners of the iron may help a bit.

The other thing is, when's the last time you flattened the bed? If it is not flat, the plane will struggle to take a shaving at all, until you've extended the blade to the point where it will only take a thick shaving. But it can't take a thick shaving because the mouth is too tight, so the problem doesn't resolve.

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

If you moved from Kansas to Texas and haven't flattened the sole, I guarantee it's not flat.

Let us know how it goes.

[Tom Trees]

I was thinking the same deal, though worth noting fair warning not to remove material from the end of the bed.
Hard to explain without pics, note the little wedge added to the bed to tip the blade a bit steeper, as the business end wasn't sitting
tight (see the gap)
515345

Barking up the wrong tree here thinking this was what was causing the iron to lift
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The answer in this case
515347

Just incase this might be why, and not a recommendation, as I only have experience with double iron smoothers,
Though one can certainly see the proof of a tight mouth and the cap iron having influence at the same time
with the wear addressed,
what would be impossible otherwise without doing that mod.
Here you go
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-plane-setup-sharpening-how-to-plane-properly-in-person-course.134679/page-8#post-1539649

[David Carroll]

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

Mine has had to be flattened twice since I owned it. Both times it was because my shop was in a garage that wasn't climate controlled and then I moved into a house that was. The first time I flattened it just as you described, but it made the problem worse! The area around the mouth was high and it rocked on the sandpaper so I was really just sanding it convex along the sole. I solved this by putting a machinist's rule along the sole and determining where the high spots were and knocking them down flat first with a very sharp block plane and a card scraper. When it was flat, then I gently rubbed the sole against the paper. Worked pretty well.

I think if the sole were concave, this would not be a problem, because it wouldn't rock as you moved it back and forth.

DC

[Rafael Herrera]

Glue a piece of sandpaper to a piece of wood. Check the sole with a straight edge and remove the high spots. Finish on a flat board.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, please don't file the mouth. As Warren suggested, rounding the corners of the iron may help a bit.

The other thing is, when's the last time you flattened the bed? If it is not flat, the plane will struggle to take a shaving at all, until you've extended the blade to the point where it will only take a thick shaving. But it can't take a thick shaving because the mouth is too tight, so the problem doesn't resolve.

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

If you moved from Kansas to Texas and haven't flattened the sole, I guarantee it's not flat.

Let us know how it goes.
As I expected with your knowledge Steve, you are correct. Put it up against my aluminum straightedge and there’s a curve where the middle is high. Here’s where I tried to to show it up against a square…
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so I want to leave the baked and wedge in but up as I abrade correct?

[Steve Voigt]

515444
so I want to leave the baked and wedge in but up as I abrade correct?

Yes. The wedge under tension will minutely affect the shape of the sole, so always flatten the sole--whether with sandpaper or cutting tools--with the blade and wedge installed.

Anytime a wooden plane is not working optimally, the first thing to check is that the iron is sharp, and sharpened correctly (e.g. no wear bevel, etc). The second thing to check is that the sole is flat. Truing the sole is a regular maintenance task that should be done as needed, probably twice a year. It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes once you're used to it.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tried to plane the bottom because I don’t have appropriate sandpaper. I think sandpaper will be better. Suggestions of what to get and where to get it?
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[Rafael Herrera]

As fine shavings as you can, check regularly with a straight edge. Plane only the high points until you get a flat surface.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, my immediate reaction when you mentioned planing the sole was "don't do this". You are likely to do damage as the amount of wood to remove is minute, and I envisage chattering. If you cannot wait to purchase sandpaper, use a scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, my immediate reaction when you mentioned planing the sole was "don't do this". You are likely to do damage as the amount of wood to remove is minute, and I envisage chattering. If you cannot wait to purchase sandpaper, use a scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Chatter is why I abandoned the attempt (primarily) after a couple of swipes.

[David Carroll]

What I do on mine is to use an extremely sharp block plane, I use a LN 102, set for a very thin shaving, less than a thousandth. I go across the grain diagonally, not along the grain. Once I get near flat I go with a scraper the rest of the way. Again the plane is only to remove the high spot(s).

I've tried clamping a long plane in a vise like you did, and running the plane over the sole, and got pretty close to the same results. Once the sole is reasonably flat, then onto the sandpaper on a long glass shelf I have covered with 120 grit, but that's mostly to clean up tool marks.

I don't know if it's faulty technique on my part, but as I push the plane along the paper I tend to favor the toe of the plane at the beginning of the stroke and the heel at the end. This imparts a bow along the length of the plane, which is exactly what I am trying to eliminate. I have to consciously remind myself not to do this, and to apply even pressure. So I try to do as little sanding of the bottom as I can get away with.

DC

[Warren Mickley]

I have maintained my plane soles with planing for nearly 50 years. I always plane with the grain.

I can't imagine that sandpaper or or planing across the grain will yield the fine surface that I demand.

[Tony Wilkins]

I have maintained my plane soles with planing for nearly 50 years. I always plane with the grain.

I can't imagine that sandpaper or or planing across the grain will yield the fine surface that I demand.
Do you do it the way the I showed in the picture or some other way?

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, you do not have the experience to do it as Warren would. Do not go there. Stick to lapping the sole on sandpaper. Warren's comment about not achieving a fine surface off sandpaper is irrelevant - when a woodie is used, the surface of the sole becomes burnished, and it takes no time at all for the wood to be polished. It is easier for you to control a plane on sandpaper, which will cut as finely as you wish - just use the appropriate sandpaper. I would start with 120 grit, even 180 grit if you are not confident. Mark the sole with pencil and watch where the surface is being removed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

One has to try to learn.
How you got chatter with a metal plane like that one is puzzling. I don't have one of those, so I can't reproduce. Perhaps you're not able to hold the coffin smoother firmly enough. Another thing that occurred to me was that the iron is not sharp enough or the shavings not set thin enough.

If you go the other way, hold the smoother in the vise, you may achieve more control. Holding it securely is difficult due to its shape.

If you use sandpaper, follow Steve's recommendations. Hold the plane so that you press down only where you want to remove material, don't just push the plane back and forth. Do one pass at a time and check, repeat until you level the sole.

[chris carter]

I mostly use wood bottom planes. I used to true the soles with another plane. What a pain in the butt, relatively slow, constant checking to not screw it up. Then I wizened up and switched to sandpaper. And I would go through grits, which was dumb and pointless because after a dozen passes on a piece of wood the sole will be burnished and smoother than a baby’s bottom anyway.

So what I eventually settled on is I went to Home Depot and bought a 36" engineered stone threshold that is dead flat. It cost me $14 I think. And I bought a role of 80 grit (yes, EIGHTY GRIT) sticky back sandpaper. Years later I’m still on that first piece I stuck down on the piece of stone. No need to go any lower. I used to do that and it was pointless.

Usually the amount needed to true a sole is microscopic. A smoother on that thing can be done in two or three passes. My 26” jointer takes a lot more because I have to do little strokes. But regardless, it is so much faster, and absolutely dead accurate without even trying, vs. using a plane to do the job.

BTW – I’ve also noticed that if I wax the sole once every other day I use a particular plane, the sole doesn’t wear as much. Wear is caused by friction and wax reduces friction. You don’t need to wax every 5 seconds like a metal plane as it holds the wax. But every couple of days makes a difference. This is particularly handy with the jointer as I’m typically just wearing out the center of the sole on edges and a bit of wax helps to avoid running a groove down the middle of the plane.

[David Carroll]

I have found the same thing. If I wax the sole regularly the wooden planes don't seem to wear (or require flattening) so much. I keep a cake of beeswax on my bench and apply it to plane soles and saw blades as required, what a difference it makes.

Only trouble is it's pretty expensive, I use it a lot, so I bought a cake of it and after only 30 years it was all used up! I'm on my second now...

DC

[Mel Fulks]

David, Good job on great Public Service Announcement. Bees wax seems gummy …but it makes stuff slick as a magic trick !

[Tony Wilkins]

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sole is flat now. Still couldn’t get a shaving but I (and my brain) was really too tired today to do much more.