Making Wood Frame Windows

[Carroll Courtney]

If you were going to make wood window frames( not sashes) for windows what material would you use? Excluding Teak, Mahogany etc you know a material that every day Joe would use. Good, Better,Best wood. I watch Brent Hull on YouTube make what he calls his 100 yr window it’s neat but I also think that keeping maintenance up and water out maybe could get 100 yrs.

[jack duren]

Sapele……………

[brent stanley]

Look into Accoya. Machines very well and takes paint very well. I've been experimenting with it and it works quite well. Jointed a board flat 2 years ago and it's still "suction to the jointer table" flat. Not the easiest to get here, but that's changing. It has been used for a long time in Europe, so even though it's uncommon here, it's common elsewhere.

[Brian Holcombe]

Why exclude mahogany? That would be my primary choice.

[Terence McGee]

For an everyday budget, finger-jointed pine or Douglas fir are solid options. If you can swing the cost, hardwoods like cedar, cypress, or white oak are better in the long rn.

[jack duren]

He needs to be more specific.

[Steve Demuth]

First, I would not install an unclad wooden window in a house or other environment controlled space. I know that's not an answer to your question, but any exposed wooden frame window is going to be inferior in performance to a well made clad window. I strongly prefer aluminum clad, although vinyl can be good for some looks, and in particular on exposures that get less full sun. I recently took out some 40 year old middling' quality (at purchase) vinyl clad windows from the West and North sides of our house, and they were in excellent condition, with the cladding showing only the most minimal embrittlement, and no leakage or rot at all. I'm likely to re-install them in a new garage next summer.

But, if I were to be tempted into an unclad wooden window for a house, I'd build it from QS or riftsawn white oak. Redwood would also be an excellent choice, except that getting vertical grain redwood that is responsiblely sourced is extremely difficult. Vertical grain Douglas Fir would be a third place option.

I watched Hull's 100 year window video. It's a bit hard to take seriously someone who says there is no need for insulated glass in a window design. Granted there are regions in the country where insulated glass is overkill, but there are lots of people living where the energy savings and comfort factor you get from them easily justify insulated and low-E glass. To build a window without allowing at least for insulated glass in the sashes as an option, seems off, to me.

[jack duren]

The largest restoration company in the country is here on in KC. They use Sapele. Reason I know this is because I applied and did a tour of their company..

Only reason I didn’t go to work there was because the two guys that own the company I heard were Jekyll and Hyde…

[John Pendery]

I’m not a window guy, but occasionally get window jobs (super simple double hung to match existing) when doing other work for historic buildings in my area. My local supplier stocks Sapele and Khaya (African Mahogany). I much prefer Sapele as it behaves exponentially better than the Khaya I’ve worked with. With African Mahogany I think you might be getting any number of species that are thrown under that umbrella. I would consider these available to the every day Joe. I’ve been interested to try Sipo or Utile, but my supplier doesn’t stock these. Interested to hear what others with more experience prefer.

[Richard Coers]

Cypress is a good choice and reasonable.

[Carroll Courtney]

Thanks guys for suggestions, Brent Hull uses Sapele for his 100 yr windows.
I was wondering what materials to use that’s 1x8 that’s fairly price. I only have 4 window frames to make, but using same sashes. Thanks to Tom for guidance on that

[Cameron Wood]

Redwood sills and Douglas fir, but I'm on the west coast.

I have clients that did a big remodel (20+ yrs ago) on their fancy older home and all the windows and interior trim are African mahogany.

The interior is good, although some of the trim did not get sanded much, but the more exposed exterior stuff has moved quite a lot and is pretty brutal to work with- cannot be nailed and a screw is as likely to break as it is to pull a bowed piece into position.

[jack duren]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiUpIeDo5eEAxXbjYkEHbgKCDEQFnoECB8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reviewwindows.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw3J-l4Gtpr2xAplMtIAVLHe&opi=89978449

[roger wiegand]

Not sure why you wouldn't choose sapele. It's cheaper by several dollars a bf than many of the other choices mentioned (like redwood, cypress, white oak or quality Doug fir), is 100% useable material, readily available as huge clear stock, and stands up well in this kind of application. At about $7/bf around here it's one of the cheapest woods you can buy. Poplar is about the least at around $5, but for four windows worth of wood that kind of difference only adds up to a couple cups of coffee for a far superior material for the application.

I personally hate the look of finger joints telegraphing through the paint (followed in a couple years by open finger joints and rot), so that's a non-starter for me for any application that might see weather.

[Carroll Courtney]

Thanks Jack, going save this read later and for inspiration.
Roger, after your response I believe I will check into Sapele. Having only 4 window frames to do I think it will work in my budget limits. Plus it be different wood for me work with

[Jared Sankovich]

Sapele and accoya seem to be the most common timber window wood.

[Mel Fulks]

Assuming that the house will have a good roof with hangover any kind of kiln dried wood will
last longer than you , and succeeding owners,if used “bark side out “ and kept painted.

[Joe Calhoon]

For a cheaper material that would hold up with paint I would consider Eastern White pine. Heartwood and tight growth rings if you can find it. The big window companies gave wood windows a bad reputation when they started using sapwood for windows. Stay away from Ponderosa Pine. It will rot even in vertical positions. I’ve used a lot of CVG fir, it’s OK vertically. Not cheap anymore. Also white oak is good but makes for heavy windows. A lot of the 100 year old windows were tight grain pine and held up very well. Of course lead paint helped.
my preferred is Sipo Mahogany. Accoya is good but hard to get here and expensive. I prefer it as cladding where no hardware penetrates to avoid corrosion.
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[Kevin Jenness]

I've used Sapele and Sipo (Utile) and the Sipo was more stable. Accoya is very stable and rot resistant but nearly impossible to get here in roughsawn unless you order a unit and expensive, plus suitable only for painted work. I would take a hard look at torrefied wood. White pine is a nice millwork material but hard to get the quality slow grown heartwood.

[Tom M King]

I would stay away from plantation grown Mahogany. It goes by many names. You just don't know what you're really getting and some of it moves with moisture changes more than any other wood I've ever seen.

[Mel Fulks]

Mahogany is great , but so is Platinum ! We are running out of mahogany ….but platinum is always available. High priced stuff for
a house , where not needed is a problem, not a “feature” when you decide to sell.

[William Hodge]

Sapele works pretty well for window frames. Most important is protecting the sash. I use aluminum storms, wooden sash, and wooden interior storms. This combination stops condensation from forming on the glass, because the glass surface temperature is below the dew point.

I make about 50 window frames a year. I make more sash than frames, the sash seem to rot out faster.

Eastern White Pine used to be the go to wood in New England. Everything we made out of Eastern White Pine in the 10980's and 1990's seems to rot out fast. Tight grain, heart wood, salvaged wood, doesn't matter. Water and Pine don't mix.

[Carroll Courtney]

William sometimes when you get chance could you post some pics of your sashes? I didn’t know that sash materials were made for exterior and interior. This is new to me

[Rob Luter]

Where will these be installed (locale)? What style operator (Vertical Hung, Horizontal Sliding, Casement, Fixed)? Will they be single or dual glazed? How will they be finished (inside and out)? Depending on these variables you could have a number of viable choices that run the gamut of material cost.

[Bruce Wrenn]

In working years, I built many replacement window frames using pine from Home Depot. I would search thru stock and pick stock that was mostly clear, or clear, then create a stock pile for when needed. The windows in our house are 44 years old, and only one frame has been replaced. It's the west facing (afternoon sun) window, plus rain storms come from that direction, except for hurricanes. Frames and sashes are natural ( no paint), and were job site treated with a product called "Wood Life," which may no longer be available. For sills, I used solid sill stock from HD, No finger joints to pop open later.

[Mike Wilkins]

10 years ago I built some louvered shutters from Cypress. Painted well and have stood up well even with direct sunlight and seasonal temperature changes.

[Tom M King]

I've never built the jambs, but have built plenty of sash and repaired almost as many 200 year old jambs, but those are all so much different than what you're building that are more like modern window units. I did repair some 1850 window frames that were very large double hung sash.

On all the old windows I always came up with some method to be able to take the sash out to work on them without having to pull nails out of stops. I've used a lot of threaded inserts and bronze machine screws that blend in with the old Heart Pine wood that all these old houses are built with around here.

The really old ones are all single hung, where only the lower sash operates, and it also holds in the top sash, so there are no parting stops. In those 1850 double hung windows the parting stops needed to be replaced after being taken out who knows how many times in 165 years. I made the parting stops out of White Oak and put them in with stainless steel trim screws with small TORX drive screws. The interior stops were the bronze machine screws in threaded inserts.

I don't paint the stops where the sash rests against them when the windows are closed, but wax them good with Renaissance wax. A decade later and they still operate better probably than they ever have.

I do paint the sash all the way across the front unlike can be done with modern windows in aluminum tracks. I don't paint the stops where that paint rests against them.

Having removable stops means that you can take the sash out to paint them and not risk painting them shut. It also allows a few extras sash to be kept on site so if one needs to be taken out to be repaired or repainted there is a replacement that can go right in. Removable with screws means you can take the stops off to remove the sash for whatever purpose without even damaging the paint.

Regardless of the paint sheen the house is painted with, I always paint sash with gloss paint. We pressure wash these museum houses every year, except for the windows, and a Windex hose end sprayer makes the windows like new again.

I always use the highest grade exterior paint that Sherwin Williams sells. I tried their Emerald Rain Refresh when it first came out on a fascia on a rental house we have with no gutters. That paint has been on the fascia for a year or two and it has no black streaks on it from the asphalt shingle roof under big Oak trees. That fascia used to get black streaks on it in a month. It's all I've used since my first trial and will gladly pay the hundred bucks, or so a gallon for it. It saves us a lot of time washing. The only complaints I've heard about it on painting forums is that masking tape won't stick reliably to it.

I use gloss on the sash because it makes the windows shine, and with past paints it was easier to keep clean, but it's not enough surface area to look out of place with the rest of the house.

[Tom M King]

Just noticed that SW Emerald paints, which includes Rain Refresh, is 40% off Feb. 9-19. Even with a pro account there is still a significant discount. This usually just comes up twice a year. It's often on sale 20 or 30 percent off.