Sharpening systems vs freehand/stones

[Ned Otter]

I have spent some time sharpening plane irons and chisels over the years, but historically have been much more of a machine-based woodworker. More recently have decided to study hand tools, and of course this requires conquering Mount Sharpening.

My shop time is limited, and I need to make the most of it.

I was wondering if while attempting to attain skills in freehand sharpening, it also makes sense to get some assistance in the form of a Tormek, Work Sharp, etc. It would allow me to at least initially circumvent some of the tedium of sharpening/flattening.

I'm assuming the machines I mentioned work well, but have no experience with them.

Would love to hear from those who have/had these types of systems.

Thanks in advance for your input --

Ned

[Ned Otter]

Reading through other posts on SMC, seems that after using a Tormek/Work sharp, you still need to use stones, so that was obviously a misconception of mine. Hmmm

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Ned, I have been using this system for about 20 years now > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system?item=05M3101

515022

When I purchased mine I was going through a lot more blades than I am nowadays. I bought extra blade holders. I could work five blades at a time. That allowed a blade to cool while others were being worked. Now I dip the blade in some water or spray a bit of water on it when working a single blade.

I used to rehab a lot more planes, chisels and other tools than I do now.

I also purchased a lot of extra abrasive disks.

My blades tend to be sharpened with a single bevel. The Mk.11 design works an edge to a secondary bevel. It isn't difficult to work around that feature if so desired.

jtk

[David Carroll]

I have a Tormek with all the bells and whistles. My original plan was to do the initial grinding on the Tormek and then finish on Arkansas stones and strop. Once the initial bevel is established I refined the edge with the stones and strop. I did that for awhile, but pretty much the machine got little use.

I bought a big, coarse, diamond stone to dress the Arkansas and Coticule stones I was using, and tried to grind tools on it, first using a guide and later freehand. It worked so fast and so well that I bought a full set of diamond stones. That has pretty much filled the spot that the Tormek was intended to fill in my sharpening regimen.

But I do still use the Tormek a good deal for other things, the initial shaping and grinding of carving tools. I have the scissors jig so I use it for those, freehand sharpening of kitchen knives and the like,

Where the Tormek really shines is turning tools. I don't turn much, but the specialized jigs make getting repeatable grinds on turning tools pretty easy.

I'm glad to have it, but I'm not sure I would run out and get one if I was only going to use it for general woodworking tools, unless I did a lot of turning.

I've never owned another sharpening machine. I have access to big industrial grinders, belt and wheel, so I didn't really need to. But I don't make use of these very often. The diamond stones, plus a strop pretty much take care of my general sharpening needs.

DC

[Ned Otter]

Thanks, David --

I have a slow speed 1 HP Rikon Grinder with 80/180 square CBN wheels that I use to hollow grind.


My shop is uninsulated and unconditioned, and while I will be addressing that, I can't even have a spray bottle with water in there at the moment.


Also recently purchased Atoma 400/600/1200, and have Shapton Glass 500/1000/4000/8000, and a few jigs from the past to hold chisels and plane irons.


I got the Atoma to reduce the stone flattening for some of the rougher/intermediate grits, but realize that there will be no substitute for using some type of stones for much finer work.


I'm ok with that, as one generally spends much less time on the finer grits.

[mike stenson]

I also find the Tormek to be too slow, cumbersome, and inconvenient for sharpening anything other than turning tools. I can't speak to the worksharp, I've never even seen one in person.

To be honest, you are already well appointed for sharpening. Of what you already own, I'd use the 500, 4000, and 8000 shapton stones. I use similar grit shapton pros after establishing the bevel on a standard (non-slow speed) grinder. I've found that, as long as I don't ignore the edge, it takes a minute or two to sharpen a tool that's already in use.

[Kevin Jenness]

You don't need to buy any more gear beyond what you have. Use your Rikon to grind just up to the edge and use your stones from there. The hollow grind will allow you to feel when the stone contacts the heel and toe of the hollow bevel until the hollow diminishes and you go back to the grinder. Whatever method you choose just stick to it until it becomes routine.

[Ned Otter]

I think part of my issue is that since the hollow grind is currently done without any jigs or fixtures, not only is the grind inconsistent, I think it goes too far back to the heel, if that's the correct term. And so when I attempt to freehand on stones, there isn't much to support it. I can feel when it rests, but think it might be a better for me if there was just a bit more steel to rest on. I'll be addressing this by getting some actual tool rest(s) for the grinder.

[Tom M King]

I've been through a number of different types of grinder setups. As far as a grinder rest, the one LV sells is very sturdy and much more stationary than it may look in pictures.

A dry grinder makes more mess than you might think, including with a CBN wheel. I had to stop using them in the old museum houses I work on. A friable wheel requires allowing for the wheel diameter to gradually get smaller. The CBN wheel does not do that, always being the same diameter, plus it cuts Much faster. Even though the CBN wheel does not shred itself away like a regular friable wheel does, it puts more metal particles in the air than it seems like it would.

The wet grinders make a different kind of mess. I sold my older model soon after buying the CBN wheel in 2011 if I'm remembering that correctly. The wet grinders are very slow in comparison to dry grinders because the rpm is limited to 150 so it doesn't sling water all over everything. When I first bought the CBN wheel I was excited to not have to deal with the wet mess the Tormek made.

Sometime later I decided the CBN wheel was leaving too much metal in the old houses that had a lot of unfinished old wood in them. About that time I found a sink top large enough to contain the wet grinder mess as well as the rest of the sharpening stone setup. I was always leary of using oil inside the old unfinished wood houses too, so the large sink proved ideal.

At that time I was about to go back to the current model of Tormek. They've made some good improvements over the older models, but for some things I like the stone to be turning towards the edge and some I like for it to be turning away. For reforming a chisel bevel that has been damaged I like for the water to roll over the edge of the chisel. For small turning tools I like for the tool to part the water so you can see exactly what you're doing on the edge. I've been thinking that surely Tormek will come out with a reversible model so you don't have to turn the whole thing around to use the wheel going in different directions.

While I'm still waiting, I bought a cheap Wen wet grinder that has a reverse. It's very serviceable but the jigs aren't nearly as nice as the Tormek jigs. The tool holder is also a different diameter, as are the holders for the legs on the machine. I made one with the correct diameter horizontal rod for the Tormek jigs and the correct diameter legs to fit in the Wen.

The Wen jigs that come with it are useable, but I had been spoiled by the Tormek jigs before that are just more precise. For chisel and plane irons the ones that come with the Wen will do the job. When I bought the Wen I don't think it was much more than $150. It's well worth its price.

As far as honing the edger freehand or with a jig, either will work. There seems to be a lot more ego satisfying about doing it by hand though.

I used a jig to start with back in the early 1970's, changed to hand alone for about 25 years, and then went back to a jig. I hired helpers that no one else would hire that had learning disabilities. They were hopeless at sharpening a chisel by hand, but could easily do it with a jig. Anyone can sharpen an edge with a jig.

Some like to do a secondary bevel because it shortens a little bit of the time necessary to get a useable edge. The trouble with that is that it requires pretty frequent grinding. To simplify things for my crew we stick with a single bevel. When a chisel edge gets damaged (we use chisels for lots of things besides finish work on wood) is the only time one visits a grinder, and then to move the bevel back far enough to get a good edge all the way across. The bevel is made at a shallower angle than you want the final cutting edge just to get it back out of the way. It doesn't even have to be exact, just out of the way. Once there are no chips out of the edge any more the chisel goes to the stones and the final cutting edge is a single bevel. Until the edge finds damage again, it just continues to take over the rest of the bevel and can end up taking over the whole bevel.

That might some like it takes more time, but it really doesn't. The whole process only takes a few minutes to take one from scraping paint off of brick back to shaving hair.

It's simple too, and anyone can do it. I'm not suggesting it's the best system for everyone, but it's the best system for my particular situation, or at least until I come up with something better.

Here is a picture of my sharpening sink that I will make a new cabinet and backsplash for when there is nothing more important to do. I used it for a couple of years just sitting on a couple of sawhorses. It drains to the top of the ground outside with no trap needed under it because no sewer gases are involved. I thought I had a better picture of it, but can't find it. First two pictures are when I was just putting it together. The top is 92" long and came off Craigslist. That's a 2 gallon water heater. We use it for all sorts of other sink uses too, like cleaning paint brushes, and washing hands.

[John Kananis]

I think this is the best advice. I have a tormek, a slow speed 8 inch grinder and a 6 inch grinder that all serve their purpose well individually but short of outfitting your shop with all that grinding gear, a small 6 inch will do you plenty of justice (I had only a variable speed 6 inch delta for many years).

Grinding machines aside, you'll need to settle on what works best for you for hand sharpening. There are so many options and opinions on this that it would make your head spin. I personally love my water-based diamond paste on steel plates but I'm a real oddball in that respect... just pointing out that there's a ton of ways to get to sharp, don't forget to consider the steel you're sharpening and what it demands. O1 and A1 will require different attention and medium.

On jigs: I own a bunch and feel that if you take this route, the LV jig is the nicest (again, this is very subjective) BUT ‐ don't get a jig. Once you have a proper hollow grind, it'll be not so difficult to find your bevel and get a feel for the sharpening. Most woodworkers go to this eventually ones of using an aid so just save yourself some time and money and learn to work your hand tools by hand (imho).


You don't need to buy any more gear beyond what you have. Use your Rikon to grind just up to the edge and use your stones from there. The hollow grind will allow you to feel when the stone contacts the heel and toe of the hollow bevel until the hollow diminishes and you go back to the grinder. Whatever method you choose just stick to it until it becomes routine.

[Ned Otter]

Hi Tom,

I wish my shop was large enough to accomodate something like the photos you attached, but unfortunately it's not. I will have to get creating about how to store my setup wants it's finalized. Thanks very much for the detailed rundown of your sharpening history.

Ned

[Bob Jones 5443]

I've been thinking that surely Tormek will come out with a reversible model so you don't have to turn the whole thing around to use the wheel going in different directions.


Tormek makes a lazy-Susan-type stand for this very purpose.

[John C Cox]

I have spent some time sharpening plane irons and chisels over the years, but historically have been much more of a machine-based woodworker. More recently have decided to study hand tools, and of course this requires conquering Mount Sharpening.

My shop time is limited, and I need to make the most of it.

I was wondering if while attempting to attain skills in freehand sharpening, it also makes sense to get some assistance in the form of a Tormek, Work Sharp, etc. It would allow me to at least initially circumvent some of the tedium of sharpening/flattening.

I'm assuming the machines I mentioned work well, but have no experience with them.

Would love to hear from those who have/had these types of systems.

Thanks in advance for your input --

Ned

Sharpening can be an impossible mountain for people getting into it. The truth is that many of us supplement power tools with hand tools where ir makes sense.

Honestly, the best thing is a good dose of following dogma by writ to get you immediate success. Once you have solid success following a procedure, then, you can experiment with other stuff.

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I recommend you don't start freehand sharpening. It requires too much experience and muscle memory to get good early results. I don't recommend you start with machine sharpening, as it is extremely expensive.

[Tom M King]

Tormek makes a lazy-Susan-type stand for this very purpose.

I know, but nothing about that Mickey Mouse contraption convinces me to spend the money on a Tormek right now. The $150 Wen has a reversible motor.

When I'm set up in one of those 200 year old museum houses, I end up giving a lot of tours to groups. Cleanliness matters so we are almost OCD about it. The washdown hose and spray nozzle on that sink serves multiple purposes, once of which is keeping everything rinsed down clean including under and around the wet grinder. That lazy susan has too many extra levels and places to hold water which is not always just water. Extra work anywhere does not fit the program.

[roger wiegand]

After forty years of practicing freehand sharpening and messing around with machines I got a half hour sharpening lesson from one of the guys at a LN road show event. I acquired three water stones they recommended, a diamond flattening plate for them, and the LV jig (I'm sure the LN one works fine too). For the first time in my life I have consistent, really sharp plane blades and chisels. It's now quick and easy and the cut quality is amazing. Who knew it could be so easy? The trick for me really was having someone help me through it once, hands on, to correct the little things I was doing wrong. I was never going to achieve these kinds of results freehand.

The diamond plate was the only expensive part of getting going with this system (about $175, IIRC), the water stones they recommended were cheap and I already had the LV jig.

The machines can achieve great results, but the setup time is a serious barrier to actually using them. Sharpening is now something I do frequently, almost unconsciously. That never happened with any of the motorized solutions I tried. None of my plane blades or chisels have needed to go to the motorized grinder for five years now. That's now dedicated to turning tools. The coarse water stone cuts so quickly that I haven't seen any particular advantage to hollow grinding blades.

Whatever you do, pick one good system and stick with it until you master it. Unless you have great hand skills and steadiness use a jig to hold the blade.

[Tom M King]

One thing that Really helps get the exact same angle every time, which makes a difference when using jigs, is some method to easily get that exact angle every time. I made these and anyone can repeat the same angle easily. Without something that serves this purpose, a jig won't save you a lot of time.

Most people use some sort of projection jig, but those only work for one particular jig. These work for any jig.

If you're doing single bevel edge, you need to repeat the exact angle every session of setting it in the jig.

[Jim Koepke]

Whatever you do, pick one good system and stick with it until you master it. Unless you have great hand skills and steadiness use a jig to hold the blade.

My first stones were oilstones. Struggled with those for years. Then tried water stones. They cut much faster and sharpening wasn't a struggle. I never tried blade holders until using the Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening system. I even made a roller to fit the Mk.11 blade holders so they could be used when sharpening by hand.

After finally learning to sharpen by hand on water stones, a quick attempt at sharpening a gouge on an oilstone came off rather smooth and quickly. Now most of the time I use oilstones for sharpening since there isn't running water in my shop.

Funny how that worked. I see it as learning to sharpen on water stones taught me how to get results on my oil stones.

jtk

[James Jayko]

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I had the Veritas Mark II jig and hated it. I bought the LN one and its great. That said...you can do just fine with an Eclipse style for $20 from Woodcraft. Just make a projection stop thing. At least to get started...that $150 LN guide is intimidating to the wallet, and its the Caddilac, but the Toyota Camry will work just fine as well.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I know, but nothing about that Mickey Mouse contraption convinces me to spend the money on a Tormek right now. The $150 Wen has a reversible motor.

That lazy susan has too many extra levels and places to hold water which is not always just water. Extra work anywhere does not fit the program.

I'm with you. I've decided against getting the rotating base. I have mine on a tray with a 3/4" lip. I just spin the machine in the tray when I want to turn it. The tray is easy to clean.

I guess there's not a gadget for every task.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Honestly, the best thing is a good dose of following dogma by writ to get you immediate success. Once you have solid success following a procedure, then, you can experiment with other stuff.

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I recommend you don't start freehand sharpening. It requires too much experience and muscle memory to get good early results. I don't recommend you start with machine sharpening, as it is extremely expensive.


I emphatically second John C. Cox's wisdom.

Also, to Roger Wiegand's post, once you work side by side with someone who has mastered a SIMPLE method (any simple method), you become a lifelong expert. That was my experience with David Charlesworth's DVD –– although I know some find his syntax and pacing off-putting. The man was a gift to sharpening as well as a lovely human being. I'm really good at sharpening because of him.

As we see every time a sharpening thread comes along, methods are as unique as the woodworkers. How do you butter your toast?

[Tony Wilkins]

I emphatically second John C. Cox's wisdom.

Also, to Roger Wiegand's post, once you work side by side with someone who has mastered a SIMPLE method (any simple method), you become a lifelong expert. That was my experience with David Charlesworth's DVD –– although I know some find his syntax and pacing off-putting. The man was a gift to sharpening as well as a lovely human being. I'm really good at sharpening because of him.

As we see every time a sharpening thread comes along, methods are as unique as the woodworkers. How do you butter your toast?
What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

[Luke Dupont]

My first stones were oilstones. Struggled with those for years. Then tried water stones. They cut much faster and sharpening wasn't a struggle. I never tried blade holders until using the Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening system. I even made a roller to fit the Mk.11 blade holders so they could be used when sharpening by hand.

After finally learning to sharpen be hand on water stones, a quick attempt at sharpening a gouge on an oilstone came off rather smooth and quickly. Now most of the time I use oilstones for sharpening since there isn't running water in my shop.

Funny how that worked. I see it as learning to sharpen on water stones taught me how to get results on my oil stones.

jtk

I've said this many times but I think your experience drives home the point:

Most people never learn to sharpen properly because they start with too fine a stone.

When learning, especially, you want to start with the coarsest, quickest cutting stone you can find.

Diamond stones did it for me. Now I sharpen free hand on Arks the vast majority of the time, which are neither fast nor forgiving, but I've come to really like them.

I'm very, very happy that I don't need to rely on jigs all the time. It means I can sharpen anything any time even if it doesn't fit in a jig or doesn't work in one, and it's just one less thing I need to fuss with -- one less frictional step in the way. Just stone, tool, oil, go.

[Warren Mickley]

What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

A flat bevel is helpful in hand work. None of these four sharpen with a flat bevel.

[mike stenson]

A flat bevel is helpful in hand work. None of these four sharpen with a flat bevel.
I, personally, don't notice a difference. I think this is largely personal preference and work methods.

[John C Cox]

What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

I understand the sentiment, but trying to pick something "that resonates" sort of misses the point. A neophyte often has no frame of reference for what is or isn't effective if followed by rote without any experience. Someone new needs to follow a procedure which does not rely on their skill or experience, and just following directions by rote doesn't "resonate" with a lot of people. They want the "Pro tip" or the "Game changer." They don't want to think of themself as "A beginner."

I'll give an example. Paul Sellers. I'm not picking on him, just using it as an example. A beginner buys the diamond stones and strop, and goes to town rolling bevel edges into a fat convex. It's fine for the 1st use on a new tool, but he chases the bevel angle higher on the second sharpening, and higher yet on the third because the beginner has not learned the muscle memory or control to gage or maintain the baseline bevel angle by eye. Soon, the chisel doesn't want to cut anything without a mallet, even when it's "Sharp." Worse, sharpening takes longer and longer each time because the apex is now hiding behind a fatter and fatter bevel. To fix it, that rounded bevel needs to be ground back off to re-establish the baseline angle, and that's a horrible proposition when freehand sharpening. I could make a similar observation about when a beginner applies Chatsworth's "Ruler trick" without knowing how much to take off or when to stop. He ends up with a 1/4" long back bevel, and wonders why his tool won't cut anymore.

My point is not to criticize those guys. It is to simply point out that methods like that are less useful for a beginner, because they rely on experience and gained practice. As one gains experience, those methods become far more useful. For example, say you start with jig sharpening and move to freehand. In your zeal, you accidentally chase the bevel up or round it too much, and it doesn't want to cut, or your polishing stones won't adequately dress the apex anymore. Well, you go back to the jig and grind it back to the correct angle, and off you go.

The goal is to present the neophyte with a method which results in repeatable results if the procedure is simply followed as written. Experienced users are a different story. They are often encouraged to optimize and experiment as they see fit, as they know how to evaluate results and fix their mistakes.

[Tony Wilkins]

Part of me wishes I had started with flat bevels. Is there anyone out there that teaches/demonstrates a flat bevel. I know Dereck uses a hollow grind to freehand. I use flat bevel on my sole Japanese chisel.

[Tony Wilkins]

My point was to watch them before buying anything. I realize that a new person would not have the experience to weigh the finer points of process but they should be able to say, “hey, that makes sense” or “I like the way this guy teaches.”

[Cameron Wood]

I've just been re-reading "Sharpening and the Japanese hand plane in depth" by Dale Brotherton. Had some extra time as the power was out for a day and a half.

Interestingly, he does not mention any bevel angle for a blade in the entire book. A side view photo of a plane blade as an example is as close as he comes.

[Jim Koepke]

I've just been re-reading "Sharpening and the Japanese hand plane in depth" by Dale Brotherton. Had some extra time as the power was out for a day and a half.

Interestingly, he does not mention any bevel angle for a blade in the entire book. A side view photo of a plane blade as an example is as close as he comes.

Angles are for each of us to find on our own. My bevel down planes usually have a 25-30º bevel. Much more than that and there isn't enough of a clearance angle behind the edge.

My chisels go from ~15º, for paring, to a few at 90º. > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?289820

jtk

[Joel Gelman]

You are EXACTLY like me. Historically more of a power tool woodworker, now beginning to appreciate the value of being better with hand tools and sharpening, and with limited available shop time. I once had a tormek and then went with a Lap-Sharp instead that went out of business. I ended up selling it because I wanted to focus on waterstones with a lapping plate (from nano hone) along with the LN honing jig and a 6 inch grinder for hollow grinding (but not along the entire bevel, just in the mid section. I figured after getting skilled with that with a dedicated sharpening station, I could then venture into a machine if and only if I truly could appreciate added value. After getting all the water stones I started to realize better to have the diamond stones that are courser as way easier and less messy than water with all the flattening. Now starting to appreciate the value of a leather strop after watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjiEmN5HzA&t=1203s

Anyhow, so many options and so many opinions. Just my 0.02.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Part of me wishes I had started with flat bevels. Is there anyone out there that teaches/demonstrates a flat bevel. I know Dereck uses a hollow grind to freehand. I use flat bevel on my sole Japanese chisel.Take a look at Taylor Tools sharpening system. Uses drill press, and retails for right at fifty bucks. In process of assembling a shop made version (I'm cheap!)

[Tony Wilkins]

Take a look at Taylor Tools sharpening system. Uses drill press, and retails for right at fifty bucks. In process of assembling a shop made version (I'm cheap!)
Seen it but I’d have to also invest in a drill press. I’m happy with my water stones and side honing jig. Since both LN and LV blades start with microbevels, I probably still would use a microbevel. It is nice when I have to touch up my Japanese blades though.

[Derek Cohen]

Part of me wishes I had started with flat bevels. Is there anyone out there that teaches/demonstrates a flat bevel. I know Dereck uses a hollow grind to freehand. I use flat bevel on my sole Japanese chisel.

The reason for hollow grinding blades is to reduce the amount of steel for honing, which both reduces the effort and speed the effort involved with non-laminated and abrasion-resistant steels. I hone on the hollow (unlike Cosman who add a secondary bevel). This maintains a coplanar bevel, which does essentially what Warren values.

My Japanese chisels are designed to be honed flat, and this is what I do. These laminated blades are only hardened steel for the cutting edge, which is a narrow strip. The soft backing iron is similar to a hollow grind. I imagine that Warren's chisels have laminated steel blades. And/or they are made of thin steel, which has less to hone.

The only machine in use is a 8" half-speed bench grinder with 180 grit CBN, and this is for the non-laminated chisels blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Toshio Odate, writing in 1983, says that chisels are sharpened with flat bevels because they perform better. Chisels made in England or America perform better with flat bevels also.

A chisel is a wedge, not just a cutting edge.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, a wedge can come in many styles. Even a secondary bevel is a wedge.

I think that you mean a equal-sided wedge? A hollow grind honed coplanar is this ... just with a hollow on one side.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I think that if you treat an English chisel the way you treat a Japanese chisel you will be rewarded.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, I believe I treat my Japanese chisels the way you treat your English chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I believe I treat my Japanese chisels the way you treat your English chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Insomuch as you refrain from hollow grind and secondary bevels, yes. However I polish with Arkansas stones and strop with bare leather., so no.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren - serious question - assuming the steel is high carbon, rather than a complex composition such as A2, M2, or PM-V11, what is the difference in using Arkansas+leather strop and waterstones to 13k?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Higher polish and better control of the burr.

[David Storer]

I'm pretty much a beginner still but I find it easy to keep bladed tools sharp enough to cut cleanly and sweetly (swishhhh! - I love that sound).

After struggling for a little while with various jigs and reliably delivering badly skewed blade profiles and wasting a lot of steel making much more than micro bevels, I switched fairly early to freeform sharpening using mostly a 600 and a 1200 diamond stone (alarmingly cheap Amazon variants) and a good quality (leather on wood) strop with green honing paste.

Hey, I am sure my results are not perfect but they achieve all I need in terms of precision shaving without blow-out ... even in very difficult stock. Planes and chisels are a pleasure to use. I sharpen only a little but fairly often (mostly with just the strop). I feel liberated not to have to deal with all the hassle and time wasted with expensive (or cheap) sharpening jigs.

Where did I go right?

[Jim Koepke]

Where did I go right?

One of the easiest ways to achieve great results is by keeping things simple.

That may be where you went right.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO, there's no getting around learning how to sharpen both by hand and by machine. Don't think that machines are quick and stones are slow. Both have their challenges. You just have to run the gauntlet and practice. Only then will it get quick and cease to be focus of your shop time.

I use an MKii and shaptons and a worksharp. I'm never 100% happy with my sharpening set up, but I'm old enough now to realize it's me - not the tools or the media; they are good enough. Practice.

[Eric Rathhaus]

I think the reason many people struggle with sharpening is because they approach it like an end in itself. I need to learn this technique so I can do woodworking. It's not. Sharpening is more like tuning a musical instrument. As you learn to play better and develop your ear, you tune the instrument more and more to your liking.what is sharp enough isn't easy to determine at first unless you use the tool. I suggest using the simplest method, which I find to free hand on stones of some kind but any method that seems simple to you, while building something. This way you'll develop a reference for what is sharp that you can work towards. I'm sure many great pieces were built with dull tools so you're don't worry about sharpening too much. As your hand tool skills improve your sharpening will improve too.

[roger wiegand]

I envy those who have sufficient sensitivity in their hands and the muscle control to both sense and maintain a consistent angle in several dimensions at once while sharpening. If there is a way to learn it I'd love to know about it, decades of just trying hasn't worked. When you're cutting into wood, eg with a chisel, the shape, thickness, and uniformity of the chip coming off the tool provides feedback to keep things on track. When sharpening freehand I've yet to discover any similar source of feedback to correct the process. It's too late when I flip it over to see how I've messed up the edge this time. I think some people must be able to feel when the bevel of a chisel or plane blade is truly flat against the stone. I can't. I'm resigned to using a jig at this point.

[Derek Cohen]

Roger, train yourself by using an easy blade. This would be a hollow ground 3/16" thick plane blade, or a hollow ground 1" wide firmer chisel. Work the blade directly on the hollow. The easiest sharpening media to practice on would be a 1200 grit diamond stone with a spritz of soapy water.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ned Otter]

Derek - I know you've blogged about side sharpening, wondering if that's the method you still use. I've not tried it yet, but will do so soon. Side sharpening might prove to be a useful method for those who are not naturally predisposed to "straight on" sharpening.

Ned



Roger, train yourself by using an easy blade. This would be a hollow ground 3/16" thick plane blade, or a hollow ground 1" wide firmer chisel. Work the blade directly on the hollow. The easiest sharpening media to practice on would be a 1200 grit diamond stone with a spritz of soapy water.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Correct Ned. I take this so much for granted, and consequently failed to mention it. This photo is from 2007 ..

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate_html _57740224.jpg

Once you have mastered the side-to-side movement, you can move diagonally as well.

For narrow blades - chisels and plough - pulling the blade backwards is another option.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I envy those who have sufficient sensitivity in their hands and the muscle control to both sense and maintain a consistent angle in several dimensions at once while sharpening. If there is a way to learn it I'd love to know about it, decades of just trying hasn't worked. When you're cutting into wood, eg with a chisel, the shape, thickness, and uniformity of the chip coming off the tool provides feedback to keep things on track. When sharpening freehand I've yet to discover any similar source of feedback to correct the process. It's too late when I flip it over to see how I've messed up the edge this time. I think some people must be able to feel when the bevel of a chisel or plane blade is truly flat against the stone. I can't. I'm resigned to using a jig at this point.

It doesn't seem to be so much "a feel" as it is practice and starting slow and watching closely to what your hands are doing. It is like learning typing. Go slow to learn accuracy and the speed will pick up later.

Another bit of help might be to make a video from the side of your sharpening and watch to see if your hands are going strait or dipping up and down.

Yesterday, while touching up a forstner bit, it was noticed how much better the view was from the side as to how my sharpening media was contacting the flat surface.

If you do try watching from the side while holding a stone, make sure you have a good grip or it is secure in its holder. DAMHIKT about this kind of tragedy.

(DAMHIKT - Don't Ask Me How I Know This)

jtk

[John Kananis]

This is an excellent (and very pragmatic) post.


I think the reason many people struggle with sharpening is because they approach it like an end in itself. I need to learn this technique so I can do woodworking. It's not. Sharpening is more like tuning a musical instrument. As you learn to play better and develop your ear, you tune the instrument more and more to your liking.what is sharp enough isn't easy to determine at first unless you use the tool. I suggest using the simplest method, which I find to free hand on stones of some kind but any method that seems simple to you, while building something. This way you'll develop a reference for what is sharp that you can work towards. I'm sure many great pieces were built with dull tools so you're don't worry about sharpening too much. As your hand tool skills improve your sharpening will improve too.

[Jim Koepke]

It doesn't seem to be so much "a feel" as it is practice and starting slow and watching closely to what your hands are doing.

jtk

A clarification on this. My bevels are flat from a disk sharpening system (Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening System).

This does not click into place or have the feel one experiences with a properly hollow ground bevel.

Eric mentions "learning to play better." My sharpening journey has been through more than 20 years of learning how to get better at it.

So don't get discouraged by the learning curve.

jtk

[Jimmy Harris]

Here are a few tricks I've learned that helped me.

Try locking your hands, arms, and shoulders into position, and moving your hips to move the blade. Just rock your whole upper body back and forth. It's not something I do much anymore, as it's inefficient. But if I'm really tired, I find it easier to keep it consistent this way, so I'll still do it from time to time. You're using bigger muscles with less angles of movement, so it's easier to control.

Use a softer stone. Hard stones and diamond stones won't provide good feedback for a beginner. With a soft stone, you can more easily tell if you've rotated too far forward and are starting to dull the edge instead of sharpening it. It'll both feel and sound different, immediately. It'll take a bit of practice to recognize this, but it'll come quicker with a soft stone than a hard stone. The brown King brand 1,000 grit stone is great for this, and not too expensive. It'll dish like crazy, so you'll need a flattening stone and need to flatten it often. So it might not be an endgame stone for you, but it's a good stone for learning on. Once you learn to feel and hear the stone, you can more easily move on to other, harder stones, and those sensations will translate.

Keep your eyes on the blade, not the stone. Pay special attention to the angle, and if the angle shifts at all, stop and reset your angle. Sharpening is all about keeping that angle consistent. And go slow at first and don't be afraid to pause after the back stroke before you begin your next forward stroke to make sure everything is still aligned. Don't be afraid to tilt the blade to the side or at an angle. You'll get a better edge if you push the blade into the whetstone versus sharpen from the side, but you can still get a blade sharp enough to shave with not matter what angle you rotate the blade. So choose whatever angle is easiest for you to hold and see any changes you might accidentally make in the bevel's angle.

Lastly, don't tighten your muscles. You want to keep your hands in firm position, but use the minimal amount of physical effort necessary to achieve this. The harder you lock your muscles, the harder it will be to keep them there. It takes a fine touch and it'll take practice to develop the fine touch. But stay relaxed. Allow yourself to make mistakes. Check your edge often. You're not going to ruin the blade, so don't allow yourself to get frustrated. Stay curious and don't shut down out of frustration. The goal isn't to get a perfect edge. The goal is to learn how to get a perfect edge. And you'll learn more from your mistakes than from your successes.

And honestly, about a 300 grit is all you need. Beyond that makes the blade sharper, but at 300 grit it should still be sharp enough to do good work. I can shave arm hairs with a 300 grit stone. It's easy to get a sharp blade at 300-1,000 grit and then mess it up going to 6,000 or 15,000 grits, because those higher grits tend to be harder stones with less feedback. Now I'm not saying don't go that high. I'm just saying that if you're running into problems going that high, then don't and wait until you get better before doing that. And if you round over a blade on a higher grit whetstone, go back a grit or two and restart. You'll save time and frustration. Really, anything above 1,000 isn't sharpening. It's polishing. And polishing helps. But it isn't mandatory.

[John C Cox]

And of course, where would we be without adding on the confusion of coarseness rating and how Japanese water stones, sandpaper "P", and "Grit" are all different scales, and they don't perfectly correlate using math. A P1000 is only about 500 grit... and vice versa a 1000 grit is a little over a P3000.