Saw for cutting tenons

[Ned Otter]

Hi everyone,

Perhaps those with more experience than I can extoll the virtues of their favorite Japanese saws (and any specifics about them) for cutting tenon cheeks.

Thanks in advance --

Ned

[Derek Cohen]

Ned, I use both Japanese and Western saws. What I love about Japanese saws is the fine kerf and set to the teeth. IN general, the teeth are smaller than Western saws, and the finish is better as a result. I will often go to a Japanese saw when sawing smaller joinery. However, when sawing tenons, the larger teeth (e.g. 10 tpi rip) and coarser nature (wider set) that Western saws are capable of means that you get a faster cut, and speed here aids in sawing accurately. Of coure one could find a Japanese saw with larger teeth, but I have not come across many.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ned Otter]

Derek, thx much for your reply -- does your answer re: Japanese/Western change depending on the hardness of the wood?

[Derek Kessler]

Tried a bunch, but the Gyokucho 372 Razor Ryoba takes the cake for me. Solid build, sharp, and precise - everything you want in a tenon saw.

[Monte Milanuk]

The 372 looks like a dozuki to me... unless there's a different one out there?

[Derek Cohen]

It is a dozuki. I have a couple for detail work. However, a (double-sided) Ryoba can work well, as long as the larger-toothed-rip-side is used.

Ned, to answer your question, I use Japanese saws in hard woods as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

I use a Suizan Dozuki for hand cutting things like tenons
https://www.suizan.net/products/suizan-japanese-saw-9-1-2-dozuki-dovetail
Very happy with the saw and the cut quality but the handle was too small for my liking,
I have noticed that many, (not all) Japanese pull saws, have small diameter handles. This is uncomfortable for me to use as it can lead to hand cramping, constantly having to "grip" the saw.
I made my own handle to better fit my needs, with a slight taper that helps when using a pull saw. A much lighter grip is required.
514789514788

[Tom M King]

Sorry, no help on a Japanese saw. I like to push better and use an old Disston that came cheap decades ago because it had paint spatter on the handle. Still does.

[Jim Koepke]

I haven't had a lot of luck with Japanese pull saws.

My most used saw for cutting tenons is an old Disston 12" back saw.

514835

jtk

[Ned Otter]

Many thanks to everyone for replying!

[Robert Hazelwood]

I'd say Japanese saws will be easier for a novice to get started with, being easier to engage in the cut. But they really like to wander in the cut if you get heavy handed with them. What you'll see is that you can track the lines perfectly on the near sides, but the back side will have wandered off the line. So, you have to avoid applying any downward pressure- the tooth geometry cuts fine without it. But it takes some practice and concentration to get the feel right. Western saws are more difficult to start in the cut if you're a beginner, but once in the cut they are less sensitive, and don't mind if you lean on it a little bit.

The other big difference is the orientation of the workpiece for sawing. Japanese saws excel for out of position work, like trimming something off an assembled piece or on sawhorses. But for sawing furniture tenons at the bench, held in a vice, they are slightly more awkward. It's do-able, but you will have to modify the "standard" western setups for sawing.

Lastly, I see people recommending very fine tooth saws like dozuki. I would say that's too fine for tenon cheeks unless they are very tiny tenons. I'd use a mid-size ryoba or kataba for normal tenons- much more aggressive while still leaving a fine surface. Being able to complete the cut in fewer strokes will probably help with accuracy, and definitely will help with sanity if you have a pile to do.

[Terence McGee]

For precision work like that, you really can't beat a good Japanese pull saw.


Personally, I've found spline-backed saws like the SUIZAN Japanese Hand Saw 9 1/2 Inch Dozuki Dovetail ideal for tenon work. The thin kerf and rigid spine backing allows you to cleanly follow your knife lines without any blade wandering.

[Tony Wilkins]

I will preface my answer in saying I am disabled and have physical limitations. At first I thought that the body mechanics of the pull saw would be better for those. At the time there was a man named Wilbur Pan active on another forum. If you want a Ryoba or dozuki, I’d look at his blog for lots of information. I found after getting a western saw later that the bush stroke resonated with me much better. While I still use my two ryoba sometimes, I’m much better with pushing a western saw. If you can try both, do that. That said, the Japanese saws are relatively inexpensive to take a flyer on.

[Jimmy Harris]

I too prefer a western style saw for cutting tenons. Or most work, really. I have a no-name one I found for $10 at an antique store, but sharpened up, it works great.

However, I've used my Ryoba for tenons as well, and it works fine. Gyokucho (Razorsaw) makes a Ryoba for hardwoods that I like a lot. Model 651. It's really the best "do it all" saw I've ever used and excels at cuts around the size of most tenons and a little larger. I've done everything from cut dovetails to resaw boards with it. The crosscut teeth are more of a hybrid tooth geometry, so they can do delicate rip work pretty well. Much better than most western crosscut saws. But the rip teeth on the 651 are sized about right for tenon cheeks and the crosscut teeth are sized about right for tenon shoulders, so it's a great choice for tenons if you prefer pull saws. Also, while the No. 651 is made for hardwoods, it does just fine on softwoods.

My biggest complaint with pull saws is they like to wander on the reverse side a lot more than wester saws, especially when making thicker cuts in woods with varying densities. So you wind up having to flip the board more often to keep your cut straight and you have to keep a close eye on the blind side as the cut gets deeper. A good western saw, especially a backsaw, holds its line much better, so you don't have to worry about what's going on on the opposite side nearly as much. Depending on the size of the cut, the type of wood, and your skills, this may not matter to you. Also, most western saws can cut a lot faster. Part of it is pushing vs. pulling and part of it is western saws tend to come with larger teeth options. Most wood in Japan is pretty soft, so their tools aren't really designed with woods like oak and maple in mind.

[steven c newman]

Ok..Cheeks need a rip filed saw...Shoulders need a cross cut filed saw..correct.

Usually I just saw the shoulders..then a chisel works the cheeks...by splitting them off...and, since the chisel is already IN your hand, go ahead and pare them smooth..

My 14" Disston No. 4 Backsaw is filed rip, with 9ppi...
514860
Also used for dovetails, BTW

[Tony Wilkins]

Here’s Wilbur’s advice on saw buying. I followed at least some of it and have been happy with the choices…
https://giantcypress.net/post/533383638/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw

I found a later version…
https://giantcypress.net/post/141424168172/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw-2016

it makes some slight adjustments and specific suggestions

[Ned Otter]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your reply, excellent information at those links --

Ned


Here’s Wilbur’s advice on saw buying. I followed at least some of it and have been happy with the choices…
https://giantcypress.net/post/533383638/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw

I found a later version…
https://giantcypress.net/post/141424168172/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw-2016

it makes some slight adjustments and specific suggestions