Table Saw vs Track Saw vs Miter Saw for (mostly) hand-tool woodworker

[Jordan Chavez]

Hey folks, I'm looking for advice on a potential machine purchase for my workshop. I'm a hobbyist, mostly a hand-tool woodworker with limited space. My current machinery consists of a bandsaw, jointer, planer, and drill press. I use the machines for milling, long rips, and accurate drilling. I everything else by hand: all cross-cutting, joinery, smoothing, detailing, etc. I have no interest in employing a machine for any of this "fun stuff", with the exception of possibly big crosscuts / breakdown. I'm a pretty good sawyer and currently do all of my crosscuts with a hand saw, but it's been getting tiresome. The time it takes to accurately mark and knife-wall the piece and the effort of executing the cut. It's fine for small pieces, but I recently finished my workbench and crosscut ~200 board feet to length by hand and I was constantly thinking "this would be a hell of a lot easier with a machine". Correcting small endgrain inaccuracies is also tedious so there's the appeal of the perfectly straight edge that the circular blade leaves.

My other constraint is space: my workshop must fit in a 10x20 space that already contains the above machines, workbench, dust collector, and storage.

I'm considering adding a circular saw of some kind: either a table saw, a track saw + MFT, or miter saw. Mostly for straight (non-angled) crosscuts and rips where the bandsaw would be inappropriate/ Again I don't intend to use this machine for joinery cuts or miters, which seems to eliminate most of the advantages of a table saw.

I also care very much about end-to-end speed: a machine is not much use to me if its setup time is so long that I can execute the cut faster by hand.

Given my situation, what would you suggest? I have zero experience with any of these machines. I'm leaning towards a track saw for the versatility, space, and price. Also the ability to bring the tool to the piece. A table saw seems overkill, but perhaps I'm missing some applications for my situation. A miter saw seems much less versatile than a track saw: I couldn't, for example, cut the ends of my workbench's slab top to length on a miter saw. I'm also open to the "suck it up" suggestion: that none of these are going to be as fast as a competent hand-sawyer for one-off pieces.

Thanks,
Jordan

[Marc Fenneuff]

Unless you need to crosscut sheet goods, based on everything you’ve said and the machines you already have, you’ve convinced me that a miter saw is what you want.

[mike stenson]

Tracksaw would allow you to more effectively deal with sheet goods. If you're already cutting stock by hand, breaking it down is already something you do, and to be honest when I don't use a handsaw to break stock down I use a jig saw. I gave away two miter saws last year, and don't miss them.

If you want ready to join type cuts, tablesaw wins by a mile at the cut alone. That will also let you deal with sheet goods. Unless you had something like an MFT, the tracksaw is awkward IMO for cross cuts.

Mostly hand tool woodworker, when using solid stock, who has (or had) all of these in his work flow.

[Tim Best]

Hi Jordan,

I’ll weigh in as much as I can. I too am mostly a hand tool creature when it comes furniture building. I have everything you have plus the Makita track saw and a table saw. Both have a place in my workflow. I bought the track saw when I built cabinets for our kitchen. (I am not comfortable with full sheets on table saw.) It really excels at breaking down sheet goods accurately. Once I was comfortable with the saw, I didn’t bother running the pieces through table saw to ensure parallel edges or dimensions. The Makita can be dead on accurate when properly set up. The track saw is also great for straight line cuts on rough stock. Making cabinets with a track saw is slower than on a large table saw but that was not a factor to me because I was building cabs in my “spare” time for my kitchen.

I still use the table saw with a cross cut sled for repeatable cuts on small stock like face frame parts, etc. The track saw has real limitations (on its own) for stock that is less than 6-7” wide. Since I have a table saw, I have not felt the need for an MFT. I like my track saw so much that I got rid of my cabinet saw and replaced it with a SawStop JSS to save space. TBH, I could probably get by without it as I use the bandsaw for a lot of tasks that others use the table saw for.

My miter saw rarely sees any use. I don’t even use it to break down rough stock any more. I normally break out the handsaws for that. The Miter saw, in my usage and work flow, really isn’t much good for anything furniture/cabinet related. I can get mine to cut square but it rarely stays square, it’s loud, and dust collection is woeful unless it is built into miter station with a hood. That kind of set up takes up too much space in my opinion. To be fair to the miter saw, I did use it to build a fence this past summer but I was not going for dead nuts accuracy on a Kentucky four board style fence.

The sidewinder curricular saw has not seen the light of day in years. I think I only keep it around because it was the first power tool that I owned.

Also, in my opinion, I would argue that none of the machines/tools are as enjoyable to use as a sharp handsaw - resawing by hand excepted of course because that is just drudgery!

Tim

[Cary Falk]

Track saw - this is pretty much a one trick pony for me due to having other tools that are faster for me. I usually only use mine for breaking down plywood and then make final cuts on the tablesaw. I have used it to put a straight on some boards but a jointer is quicker. I have also used to size up a large glued up bench top that was just too big to take to the tablesaw.

Miter saw- Used mostly for rough cutting solid wood to length and then final cuts on the tablesaw which is more accurate. I could use my jigsaw for most of what I do. I keep it around for building fences, decks and interior trim.

Tablesaw - use it for everything and on everything. 99.99999999999% of my cuts are on the Tablesaw. All other tools would go before my table saw but I am a powertool guy.

It probably didn't answer your question directly but it sounds like you want a miter saw.

[Michael Burnside]

First, I’m not a hand tool only guy. That said I mainly build furniture and home accessories almost exclusively using hardwoods of all kinds. IMHO, the table saw is the most versatile of the bunch being able to cross, rip, dado, groove and even make tenons and some other joinery.

Track saw would be second, followed by the rarely used miter saw. I own the Festool Kapex and I’m considering selling given how rarely I use it, preferring my table saw.

[Derek Kessler]

Considering your focus on hand-tool woodworking and the need for efficient crosscuts, a track saw appears to be a sensible addition. It complements your existing toolset well without taking up excessive space.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jordan

I view myself as a blended woodworker because I use all tools as relevant. Each type has strengths to be utilised. Having stated this, I get the biggest bang from hand tools, especially joinery and finishing with hand planes. For many years I was purely a hand tool woodworker. I also only build in solid wood, generally hardwood, which is relevant here. No sheet goods. The wood stock may start off as a 50mm thick x 3m long rough sawn board, anything up to 300mm wide.

I do have a track saw, which I purchased out of curiosity, but it is only used to cut up rough stock into shorter length for processing. I do not own a chop saw, and take the view that one would need dedicated wall space, which I do not have in my workshop. So forget the chop saw. You could get away with a circular saw here, just as easily. The strength of a track saw is for cutting up sheet goods, and if you also do not do use sheet goods much, then forget the tracksaw.

My go-to is a short stroke slider, the Hammer K3. This excels for a furniture maker who works with solid woods, especially building medium size pieces. The footprint of the K3 is on the smaller side, much smaller than the contractor table saw that preceeded it. The slider excels in crosscutting, and ripping is equally good. Mine also has a router table built into the outfeed. This is the machine that I would recommend for you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jimmy Harris]

It's up to you. They each have their pros and cons.

The track saw is the most versatile. It's basically just a circular saw with custom fence. Which means you can do anything with a circular saw and a nice fence (and maybe some clamps) that you could do with a track saw. Just the track saw will save you some time and be easier to use, because you don't have to focus on keeping it flush to the fence and adjust the fence is easier. While a track saw is the most versatile in your list, it's also the least specialized, which means it doesn't do anything great, other than cutting long sheets.

The table saw is the second most versatile. It's made for ripping long boards, but can crosscut and handle sheet goods. It's probably the best overall if you want to do a little bit of everything, as it's easier to set up than a track saw. It's a woodworking standard for a reason. You can cut angles with it, but it's not the best tool for that. However, with the proper jig, it can made to do just about anything. You just need to make the jig.

The miter saw sounds like what you want. However, it's really only good at crosscuts. But man is it good at crosscuts! Especially repeated, identical crosscuts. It is purpose built for what you're describing, unlike the other two which just do that also. And with a folding miter saw table they sell these days (which aren't great, but good for saving space), they're a good compromise between space and functionality.

Personally, I just use a circular saw and a speed square for what you described. It's the fastest, cheapest, and most space saving option. Though it does take a bit more skill to use than any of the others.

However, to be honest, none of these power tools leave a finish ready surface, in my opinion. Others will disagree, as we each have a different definition of what finish ready is. But if I'm building something nice, as opposed to just something functional, I'm going to cut a bit fat and plane it back to size, which means they may or may not be saving me much time.

[Jim Dwight]

I do not use many hand tools. My final surface is established by sandpaper, not a plane. I have hand tools and use chisels pretty regularly, a block plane fairly often and a shoulder plane if I need to. I have a bench plane but haven't used it in years. So I do woodworking differently than the OP.

I also have a Table saw, a PCS with 36 inch rip capacity, a miter saw (Hitachi 12 inch double bevel non slider) and a track saw (DeWalt with all the track they offer). I also have a 14 inch bandsaw with 13 inch depth of cut capability. I've used all these saws within the last week and would not want to be without any of them. I am building a cherry bed for my oldest grandson. All solid wood, no plywood. But the track saw is by far my easiest way to get a straight edge on large pieces of solid wood. I'll build the dresser next and will use all these tools again. For the dresser, the bandsaw is the least necessary. But my supplier only had 4/4 and 8/4 cherry and I needed 5/4 and 6/4 so the bandsaw was pretty necessary for the bed. For the bed, I guess the least necessary tool is the table saw.

A track saw can replace a jointer for joining long boards. I put the glue ready edges on all the boards in my 10 foot dining room table with my tracksaw. No way I can manage a 10 foot board on my jointer. They are great for rips or larger crosscuts on solid wood or sheet goods. They are not great at making little pieces. I needed 30 1.5 inch long by 3/8 thick by 1/2 inch wide pieces, for instance to hold the slats apart on the footboard and headboard of the bed I am making. No way I am cutting those pieces to length with a track saw. I could have cut the 3/8 or 1/2 inch dimension with it but not both. I used my planner to get the wood 3/8 thick and the table saw to cut it to 1/2 inch wide and then the compound miter to cut it to length. A handsaw in a miter box would have worked just as well to cut the pieces to length and been safer, however. My bandsaw + planner could have done the 1/2 inch dimension just fine.

Track saws and table saws complement each other. But if you work with large pieces of wood I would get the track saw first. I'm not sure about a MFT. I have a workbench with holes in it like a MFT but I don't use them for cutting very often. It could be handy if you don't have a table saw since it would permit easier cuts on fairly small pieces. But it's also something you can make. Festool stuff is awfully pricey. A Makita track saw is pretty good and can use many Festool accessories. Even the low priced ones are probably nice to have but I think the mid priced are the way to go (like my DeWalt). There is a youtube channel called the new brit workshop where he uses a home made cutting station with his track saw. I'd make that before buying a MFT. Another youtuber that likes track saws is the "10 minute workshop". He has a pretty neat crosscutting setup as part of his workbench.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Derek...a whole bunch.

[Todd Zucker]

I started with a track saw and MFT, then added a band saw and jointer/planer. Then switched to mostly hand tools for a number of years and recently bought a Kapex and table saw. The track saw, MFT and band saw combination, along with hand tools, worked well for me for many years for ripping, sheet goods, panels, etc. I would not want a track saw without an MFT unless I had a table saw. I don’t have much experience with a table saw but can already see that it is going to replace the track saw, MFT and Kapex for most things. Given your space constraints and enjoyment of hand tools, though, I think a track saw and MFT combo would be ideal, especially if you intend to cut panels for furniture or cabinets that exceed the capability of a miter saw. I built a DIY base for the MFT and put the legs in the attic. Much more stable and better use of space for a small shop.

[Larry Edgerton]

Track saws are a pain for small pieces IMO.

I agree that a small slider would fit, but a cabinet saw with a crosscut jig would work too for a lot less.

Where are you located?

[Lee Schierer]

I use more power tools than hand tools in my woodworking. With that said, I'll wade in to the discussion.

I use a table saw for 95% of the cross cuts and rips I need to make. It is safe, accurate and gives really nicely finished cuts.

I do not own a Miter saw. They are good for crosscuts only and you would still do rips by hand.

I do not own a track saw, but I do have a clamp on guide for my circular saw that gives good results IF I do a really good job of getting it aligned parallel or perpendicular to make the needed cut. I can do these cuts more quickly on my table saw and get a smoother cut surface.

With a 10 x 20 space, a sliding table type saw would eat up a lot of space, so it would appear to be a poor choice for you.

[Derek Cohen]

With a 10 x 20 space, a sliding table type saw would eat up a lot of space, so it would appear to be a poor choice for you.


My Hammer K3 slider with a 48" wagon reaches 103" full extension (forward and back together). There is a model with a shorter wagon (37"). Total width is 48".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[George Yetka]

Track saw can get you far. But you will be spending more than you would on a TS to get it to do everything a ts can do.(tracks/square/MFT/Etc) You can rip a narrow piece with the Track saw but setup for it is annoying compared to TS
Miter saw is limited to crosscutting you can do that with a sled on the TS
TS with a CC sled should get you all rip and crosscut abilities.
If you dont plan on working with 12/4 maple exclusively a portable saw may be your choice. A jobsite saw with gravity stand could do the job and be able to store pretty small

[mike stenson]

My Hammer K3 slider with a 48" wagon reaches 103" full extension (forward and back together). There is a model with a shorter wagon (37"). Total width is 48".

Regards from Perth

Derek

This is, I believe, roughly the same space as my unisaw with a sliding table added. Maybe smaller. It's interesting, and I won't go measure because that may lead to purchases.

[Joel Gelman]

Not sure where you live, but my suggestion is that you try to visit the shops of a couple of people who have sliders vs Unisaw type table saws, track saws and miter saws. I learn a LOT when I visit the shops of others.

[Michael Burnside]

I mean I get you guys recommending a slider, but what is the MSRP of something like that? I suspect Derek has over 7K invested no? At least when I go online for prices, that's about where I see us end up.

From the OP's original post "I'm leaning towards a track saw for the versatility, space, and price" which, I interpret this as space and price are important metrics.

The reason I recommended a table saw is probably similar to the rest of you, versatility, but I was thinking a SawStop compact for $900 something along those lines. Relatively inexpensive but a good tool and doesn't take up much space. The YouTuber Tamar has done amazing work with a job-site/compact saw when she started out.

But yea, if space and money isn't a concern, go nuts and go table saw or slider :D

[Aaron Inami]

After reading your initial post several times, it -seems- like a track saw would solve all your problems. But here's my thoughts:

miter saw - very fast for setup and doing crosscuts. However, you are limited to about a 14-15" long cut if you get the largest 12" miter saw (and about 3-1/2" cut depth). You should not be cutting small pieces or doing any sort of rip cuts with this tool. Be careful with your tool selection as some miter saws do have accuracy problems. Most of these are total crap at dust collection. The Festool is best at dust collection, but will have smaller cut lengths due to smaller 10" blade.

table saw - VERY fast setup for smallish pieces. I loved my cabinet saw that I had over the years. However, ripping anything longer than a 2 foot board is going to be cumbersome and prone to error. It's difficult to keep the material straight against the fence as you position the wood and push through. If you are wanting to crosscut 8 foot long 2x4 pieces, this is going to be impossible on a table saw unless you install a sliding table add-on. Without a sliding table add-on, I would say you could successfully crosscut something that is not longer than about 3 feet and be able to do a 15-20" cut. You can get a decent cabinet saw for about $2.5k (i.e. Harvey). Or go for a saw stop Contractor at $2k, or PCS at $3k. You need the PCS if you want to add a sliding-table add-on.

track saw - the easiest way to get a VERY long and VERY accurate cut on material (without going to a full size sliding table saw). Setup time is not nearly as fast as with a table saw or miter saw. However, you can still do crosscuts with a MFT table. Probably the most versatile choice, but I would saw it would take at least twice as much time to setup a cut versus the miter saw or table saw tool. However, still much faster than trying to hand-saw your material. You are going to be limited to just over a 2" cut depth. The Makita track saw is very nice for the money. The Festool usability is slightly better because of the way they designed the tool, but more expensive.

To all the guys who are recommending a sliding table saw, remember that he has a very small 10x20 shop that is already loaded with bandsaw, jointer, planer, drill press, dust collector, storage. I don't think he has the room to put in a full slider along with everything else.

Jordan - go to youtube and do a search for "single car garage shop". There are a lot of guys out there with your shop size and this may give you ideas.

[Jordan Chavez]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies. Great so hear so many different viewpoints. So while my current space is limited, I could probably fit a small table saw. Here's my tentative layout for reference:

514800

The red squares are either measurements or empty spaces that need to stay empty: buffer space on either side of the car and infeed/outfeed for the machines. Storage is mostly french cleats/wall cabinets. From this perspective my biggest space constraint is not actually area, but infeed/outfeed, hence the "lanes" layout. I frequently work with 12"-wide/8'-long rough sawn lumber, so I'm expecting 8 feet of infeed and outfeed for the milling machines (less for the bandsaw). So I could probaby squeeze a small table saw there. I could also use the second half of the garage if I *really* needed it, but it feels like I should be able to fit everything into the space I have.

Price is relevant, but I'm fine spending if I'm going to get value out of it and it's a good machine.

I'm curious what's the advantage of a sliding panel saw like the Hammer K3 folks recommended vs a fixed cabinet saw like a SawStop PCS? The 48" Hammer K3 is $6k while the SS is $3k. What justifies doubling the price and what makes the sliding saw better for general furniture making? I pretty much never work in plywood or other sheet material apart from an occasional jig: all of my work is hardwood and occasionally softwood dimensional construction lumber.

[Paul Koenigs]

There's a jig made by Kreg called "Kreg Crosscut station" which I have never tried, but that could be a workaround if you get a circular saw (but not a miter saw).
If you are going to do trim on a house, crown molding, etc.. well at miter saw is going to be a lot more convenient.

The big advantage to a tablesaw is:
Able to use a dado stack to cut wide dados, rabbits
Able to rip multiple pieces of wood to the same width (handy if you are making a bookshelf). This can be done on a track saw, but a tablesaw is easier.
Faster than a track saw, unless you are breaking down huge sheets

Track saw:
Can do almost anything (not a dado stack) , just takes longer, requires some kind of set up (Can just be laying a sheet of styrofoam on the floor).

If it was me, I'd get a table saw, but that's based on the kind of work I do. I would put it on a mobile base so I could roll it out of the way when not in use.
But please, make sure you have enough space to fit it and use it.

I also have a track saw, seldom use it (other than breaking down plywood)
I have a miter saw with a stop system which is great for making repetitive cuts of the same length.. if you get a miter saw, I would try to set up a system like this.

[Jim Becker]

I'm curious what's the advantage of a sliding panel saw like the Hammer K3 folks recommended vs a fixed cabinet saw like a SawStop PCS? The 48" Hammer K3 is $6k while the SS is $3k. What justifies doubling the price and what makes the sliding saw better for general furniture making? I pretty much never work in plywood or other sheet material apart from an occasional jig: all of my work is hardwood and occasionally softwood dimensional construction lumber.

This is kinda a "religious" discussion for some, but more and more folks are taking a hard look at small sliders as an alternative to the long time status quo of a cabinet saw. But yes, the initial investment can be more than the $3-5K SawStop or Harvey or similar. 'Nature of the beast. There are alternatives to Felder and SCM/Minimax (I'm in the latter category) with Maksiwa as an example. There's a thread about them by another 'Creeker here from not long ago as this brand (from Brazil I think) is pushing harder in to the North American market with very attractive and competitive pricing.

With the short stroke slider you get all the same things you get with a North American style cabinet saw, plus the repeatable precision that having a true-slider brings. Sliders are not necessarily "panel saws" and while the larger ones are obviously optimizes for large sheet goods, the smaller format saws are excellent for furniture making. I'd never go back to a cabinet saw unless I was forced to like I was briefly while operating a "temporary gara shop" while I got my new shop building up. That was a "reduced size" (cut down) PCS...a very nice saw for sure, but so frustrating to me with its limitations relative to how I'm used to working.

[Stan Calow]

The OP is a hobbyist, and the equipment investment calculation for a pro is different than it would be for a hobbyist. A good quality bench top or jobsite table saw might even make more sense for a hobbyist if space is that significant an issue. I can count on zero fingers the time I needed a slider in the last 25 years. Want one maybe, but it would never had made sense.

[Jim Becker]

Lots and lots of us are hobbyists, Stan. But yes, it's about "want" more than "need" in many cases. You can even have a really nice, small and portable saw with a real slider if you want...from Festool. :)

[George Yetka]

Based on the layout you show a pcs with mobile base would be nice. Then after a year or so tell the owner of the car you will warm/deice/desnow their car. And have a full size assembly table as the outfeed. Now you have a 20x20 shop.

It worked for me

[Stan Calow]

Lots and lots of us are hobbyists, Stan. But yes, it's about "want" more than "need" in many cases. You can even have a really nice, small and portable saw with a real slider if you want...from Festool. :)

Yes Jim, thanks for that. I just often see in this and other non-woodworking forums that kind of advice as being like "don't bother buying a Honda Civic when you really need a Mercedes 450'." :)

[mike stenson]

For that matter. I could make the argument that we don't need a single powered tool, since you can do everything required to make things out of wood with about 10 hand tools.

Actually, fewer than 10. Some amazing stuff was made with a hand axe.

[Aaron Inami]

I frequently work with 12"-wide/8'-long rough sawn lumber, so I'm expecting 8 feet of infeed and outfeed for the milling machines (less for the bandsaw).

Based on this comment and your garage layout, I would probably buy a miter saw because I can see you wanting to cut down those 12" wide boards. I would move the bandsaw to a more centered position so that you have at least 8 feet for both infeed and outfeed (just like your jointer/planer). Then I would put a miter saw station just to the right of the bandsaw. This allows you to use the worktable/bandsaw/outfeed table as support for long pieces. You could rip these boards on the bandsaw and then use jointer/planer to make the edges parallel if need be.

A sliding table saw is awsome if you have the space. Obviously, DADO capability is a feature that only a table saw or sliding table saw can provide. In addition, the sliding table saw works better than a normal cabinet saw for crosscuts because the "sliding table" runs directly along side the blade. So there is no resistance from pushing wood over the surface like you would have on a normal cabinet saw. It lets you do easier crosscuts and straight line ripping (using the slider to rip the material). Add in a Fritz-n-Franz jig and you could do pretty much anything with the slider (except for crown mouldings).

Instead of the Hammer K3 48x48, I would look at the Felder K500 standard model (NOT the Professional model). It starts at $6900 (not much more than the Hammer K3). This has a smaller table footprint since it only allows ripping up to 31" on the right side of the blade (It's more like a 51x31 version of the Hammer K3 48x48). Also, it has a slightly longer table (51") and a much longer crosscut fence. However, even a short stroke slider is going to require somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of the floor space in your 10x20 area. You need a front-to-back length of 10 feet and a side-to-side area of about 8 feet (for the main unit and crosscut fence). You can get away with opening the garage door if you need to push the slider all the way forward. I still don't think you can realistically put one it. I guess you could move your workbench out of the area and put the slider there instead. Then remove the crosscut fence when you're not using it.

[Michael Burnside]

I'm curious what's the advantage of a sliding panel saw like the Hammer K3 folks recommended vs a fixed cabinet saw like a SawStop PCS? The 48" Hammer K3 is $6k while the SS is $3k. What justifies doubling the price and what makes the sliding saw better for general furniture making? I pretty much never work in plywood or other sheet material apart from an occasional jig: all of my work is hardwood and occasionally softwood dimensional construction lumber.

Based on the original question, I gave my answer - tables saw.

Now, as Jim points out, "what table saw" is akin to religion LOL.

For me, price was a non-issue. If the saw was 5K or 15K I didn't care as long as it was something I needed/wanted. I knew, after 10+ years into the hobby, it was something I was going to stick with. I chose a PCS. The safety feature is great but sliders are darn near or as safe unless you're doing anything with the fence "traditionally", which by the way I find quite clunky on the Hammer K3. My opinion, Hammer owners calm down, it's ok :P I have a friend/cabinet maker with the Hammer who is upgrading to a Felder machine soon as he shares my opinion. There are a few other reasons why, at least for now, I own a cabinet saw. Maybe with a bit more exposure here in the US and parts/repair/availability I'll consider adding one before I completely replace the PCS. I have 16'x8' of space for "something" ;) (A ShopSabre Pro 404 is presently vying for position)

[Nick Crivello]

If space is at a premium you might consider something like the Short stop from DashBoardpws.com

You could likely integrate their hinge for the track into whatever assembly table/bench you're using now.

[Michael Burnside]

Not a bad idea Nick. They make the best quality stuff and Rob, the owner, has his shop a few miles from me.

If the MFT and tracksaw interest you, I would definitely go Dashboard all the way.

[Nick Crivello]

Not a bad idea Nick. They make the best quality stuff and Rob, the owner, has his shop a few miles from me.

If the MFT and tracksaw interest you, I would definitely go Dashboard all the way.

In a small primarily hand tool oriented workspace the Shortstop makes a bit of sense as it realizes all of the strengths of a track saw ecosystem. It's also a highly portable solution that packs away into a corner or vehicle.

I have a full sized PWS that I acquired during one what I think was the second production run, and it's a very well thought out design with top notch materials/finish. It didn't quite fit my workspace/workflow as initially envisioned but it's a great solution for many. Currently stored away as I don't really want to part with it.

[Michael Schuch]

Hey folks, I'm looking for advice on a potential machine purchase for my workshop. I'm a hobbyist, mostly a hand-tool woodworker with limited space. My current machinery consists of a bandsaw, jointer, planer, and drill press. I use the machines for milling, long rips, and accurate drilling. I everything else by hand: all cross-cutting, joinery, smoothing, detailing, etc. I have no interest in employing a machine for any of this "fun stuff", with the exception of possibly big crosscuts / breakdown. I'm a pretty good sawyer and currently do all of my crosscuts with a hand saw, but it's been getting tiresome. The time it takes to accurately mark and knife-wall the piece and the effort of executing the cut. It's fine for small pieces, but I recently finished my workbench and crosscut ~200 board feet to length by hand and I was constantly thinking "this would be a hell of a lot easier with a machine". Correcting small endgrain inaccuracies is also tedious so there's the appeal of the perfectly straight edge that the circular blade leaves.

My other constraint is space: my workshop must fit in a 10x20 space that already contains the above machines, workbench, dust collector, and storage.

I'm considering adding a circular saw of some kind: either a table saw, a track saw + MFT, or miter saw. Mostly for straight (non-angled) crosscuts and rips where the bandsaw would be inappropriate/ Again I don't intend to use this machine for joinery cuts or miters, which seems to eliminate most of the advantages of a table saw.

I also care very much about end-to-end speed: a machine is not much use to me if its setup time is so long that I can execute the cut faster by hand.

Given my situation, what would you suggest? I have zero experience with any of these machines. I'm leaning towards a track saw for the versatility, space, and price. Also the ability to bring the tool to the piece. A table saw seems overkill, but perhaps I'm missing some applications for my situation. A miter saw seems much less versatile than a track saw: I couldn't, for example, cut the ends of my workbench's slab top to length on a miter saw. I'm also open to the "suck it up" suggestion: that none of these are going to be as fast as a competent hand-sawyer for one-off pieces.

Thanks,
Jordan


I picked up my last Delta 10" compound miter saw from Craigslist for $20. It had been left out in the rain for a little while but since it is mostly aluminum it just took taking the saw apart, cleaning it up and some grease (I actually used wax) to put it back to near new condition. At the price of used 10" compound miter saws I think everyone should own one.

I would add a track saw to use with the miter saw and you should be able to manage most tasks quite efficiently while taking up very little space. I have top end Mafell track saw and it is REALLY nice but if I were to do it again I would just buy a mid-tier track saw like a 110v Makita at half the price or less.

P.S. 12" miter saws and 12" sliding miter saws are nice for their extra capacity BUT it is REALLY hard to beat the compactness and portability of a 10" compound miter! Moving my 10" Delta compound miter is nothing. Moving my 12" Dewalt compound miter is a real chore. Moving a 12" sliding miter is not something "I" would want to do on a regular basis!

I HAD a 10" Ridgid compound miter saw that I really liked (bought used). I gave it to my little sister when I bought my (used) 12" Dewalt compound miter saw. After humping the heavy Dewalt 12" around I bought the (used) Delta 10" compound miter saw and the 12" Dewalt stays in the shop permanently (it doesn't get much use as I prefer my radial arm saw for shop use).

[Ron Selzer]

Michael posted "P.S. 12" miter saws and 12" sliding miter saws are nice for their extra capacity BUT it is REALLY hard to beat the compactness and portability of a 10" compound miter! Moving my 10" Delta compound miter is nothing. Moving my 12" Dewalt compound miter is a real chore. Moving a 12" sliding miter is not something "I" would want to do on a regular basis! the 12" Dewalt stays in the shop permanently (it doesn't get much use as I prefer my radial arm saw for shop use"

Agree 100%, bought my daughter a 10" Hitachi miter saw for her house as she has no need for a bigger saw. Shoe molding, base, casing, etc. all cut just fine with the 10" saw
I bought a Delta Sawbuck going on 10 yrs now and never plugged it in yet. Used to pack a B&D 10" radial saw and 10' long table for it around when younger and working, now don't even want to move the 12" DeWalt miter box around the shop.
Ron

[John Pendery]

Lots and lots of us are hobbyists, Stan. But yes, it's about "want" more than "need" in many cases. You can even have a really nice, small and portable saw with a real slider if you want...from Festool. :)


I was just about to say Festool just put out a slider the size of a laptop for anyone saying sliding table saws take up too much space!

[Derek Cohen]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies. Great so hear so many different viewpoints. So while my current space is limited, I could probably fit a small table saw. Here's my tentative layout for reference:

514800

The red squares are either measurements or empty spaces that need to stay empty: buffer space on either side of the car and infeed/outfeed for the machines. Storage is mostly french cleats/wall cabinets. From this perspective my biggest space constraint is not actually area, but infeed/outfeed, hence the "lanes" layout. I frequently work with 12"-wide/8'-long rough sawn lumber, so I'm expecting 8 feet of infeed and outfeed for the milling machines (less for the bandsaw). So I could probaby squeeze a small table saw there. I could also use the second half of the garage if I *really* needed it, but it feels like I should be able to fit everything into the space I have.

Price is relevant, but I'm fine spending if I'm going to get value out of it and it's a good machine.

I'm curious what's the advantage of a sliding panel saw like the Hammer K3 folks recommended vs a fixed cabinet saw like a SawStop PCS? The 48" Hammer K3 is $6k while the SS is $3k. What justifies doubling the price and what makes the sliding saw better for general furniture making? I pretty much never work in plywood or other sheet material apart from an occasional jig: all of my work is hardwood and occasionally softwood dimensional construction lumber.

Jordan, you ask why the K3 when the SS is half the price? First off I would mention that there are a range of SS saws, and their prices vary. The one I looked at (about 5 or 6 years ago now) - when deciding on a K3 vs SS - was the same price when adding in a sliding table accessory. The build quality of the Hammer and the SawStop are very similar, and I would have been happy to own the SS, coming off 25 years with a contractor saw. However, after the research and experimentation with the two saws alongside one another, I came to recognise that the slider was next generation and offered so much more. The K3 not only has more power (4 hp vs 3 hp), but a larger blade (12" vs 10") which adds an extra 1" to the thickness you can saw. That is significant. Plus its footprint was significantly smaller than the SS. Ignore the length of the slider's wagon. It is not relevant in a comparison: the slider can be fixed so that the K3 acts like a cabinet saw. The amount of space one needs in front of and at the rear of a cabinet saw is what makes for the length of the slider's wagon.

Now I have about the same amount of space as you: a double garage in which one car parks at night. The rear of my workshop is dominated by my workbench. It is the centre of my world. This is to let you know that we are on the same page ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vTj956fd/Underbench-Cabinet-Completion-Cabinet-html-m5a0ab82.jpg

Here is the K3 I have. Note that the wagon is shortish 48"/1250mm. Probably too short for someone who works with plywood, but perfect for someone who works with hardwoods. Crosscutting and ripping are a dream. And it is safe (as safe as a SS). Note the small footprint. The rip fence is 37mm. Plenty for hardwood.

https://i.postimg.cc/8cQ1r9jG/1.jpg

Router table in the outfeed. Not only this, but the fence uses the microadjust on the rip fence ...


https://i.postimg.cc/262dDc0R/1.jpg


The other thing I have done - perhaps for you to consider over time - is to save space using a combination jointer-thickness planer (Hammer A3-31). Much of the time it lives in the corner, where the in- and outfeed is sufficient for 95% of my needs. I pull it out for the other 5%.

At the end of a day in the shop, a MFT and vacuum cleaner are pushed between the machines, and there is space for a car ...

https://i.postimg.cc/K8rxG9vb/16.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan Lightstone]

My choice was an ICS table saw. My Felder rep gave me a good sales pitch on buying their slider, but what I did in my shop (which is admittedly much larger than yours) is build cabinets for the left of the saw which I use as a large assembly table, the outfeed table (which is a nice cabinet storing some smallish jigs, and hand saws), and a router table on the right side. So in not getting a slider (which admittedly would be nice), I gained a ton of storage space.

That being said, if you need to move the saw, that option is totally out.

I also do own two track saws (Festool, and Mafell - the Mafell is light years ahead of it in capacity and build quality -especially the track, but it weighs a ton), and I bought a panel saw for rough cutting to reduce the size of sheet goods which I can't handle on my table saw. I also own a Kapex miter saw, which I use often. But I didn't lose any floor space from it, as it sits on lower cabinets.

So, basically, I have all of the above. I use the track saw the least, and dislike it the most, but for some jobs I have found it necessary.

And like Jim, I virtually always agree with Derek.

[Nick Crivello]

Router table in the outfeed. Not only this, but the fence uses the microadjust on the rip fence ...


https://i.postimg.cc/262dDc0R/1.jpg




First time I've seen a router fence piggybacked onto a euro fence like that. Very clever. :cool:

[Jim Becker]

First time I've seen a router fence piggybacked onto a euro fence like that. Very clever. :cool:
I agree...that's a very elegant way of handling this need.

[Jordan Chavez]

One thing I’m not clear on is the space difference between a cabinet vs sliding saw. I’d think the actual dimensions of the machine don’t matter since you need 8-10 feet of clearance on three sides of the blade to rip and crosscut up to 8’ boards. In other words the slider travel and such doesn’t matter because you need the same amount of clearance around either saw. Is this correct?

[Jordan Chavez]

Derek do you have room for full 8’ crosscuts and rips with your setup? Making me rethink what’s possible in my space…

[Derek Cohen]

One thing I’m not clear on is the space difference between a cabinet vs sliding saw. I’d think the actual dimensions of the machine don’t matter since you need 8-10 feet of clearance on three sides of the blade to rip and crosscut up to 8’ boards. In other words the slider travel and such doesn’t matter because you need the same amount of clearance around either saw. Is this correct?


Jordan, as I wrote earlier, one looks at a slider and sees this long wagon ... and forgets that this is the space needed when ripping on a cabinet saw. The wagon is not left extended on my K3, but closed up and only a few inches longer than the slider's physical length.

Crosscutting is a dream. There is plenty of clearance on the rip fence side - either move it out of the way or remove it altogether ..

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable1_html_5b83a521.jpg


Ripping 2" thick Jarrah ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/EntryHallTableForANiece1_html_m1a5762fd.jpg

Either use the wagon to do this (and there are a number of ways, which I shall not go into here), or use the rip fence, as you would on a cabinet saw ...

https://i.postimg.cc/VLGK100n/Y1a.jpg

The length which may be sawn here is unlimited.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alex Zeller]

Circular saws are cheap. So if you are thinking about a track saw you can always make one. I use a Lufkin 8' straight edge and clamp it to the work piece It's not as convenient as a track saw but it get's the job done. It also shows me how often I would use a track saw. It's not as often as I would have thought so I still haven't bought one. You could simply buy an 8' piece of hardwood and flatten one edge and do the same thing. Call it a poor man's track saw.

My sliding compound miter saw is just too valuable to give up. But I often do things like construction. So being able to cut 2x4s with speed is just too nice to give up. Plus it can be broken down and stored almost anywhere.

My jointer, planer, table saw, and drum sander are all on wheels. What I find it that the table saw is rarely moved from the middle of my shop space. When I want to use it I don't want to be moving tools around to get to it. In a small shop mobile bases are almost required if you want larger tools. My lathe, band saw, oscillating spindle sander, and mortiser never move.

At some point I'll upgrade to a slider. My neighbor has one that he said I could have. I've just been busy with other non woodworking projects to finalize my real shop. There's just too many things they excel at to not have one. But I'm also not much of a hand tool woodworker. Maybe when I retire and have the time that will change.

[Jim Becker]

Derek do you have room for full 8’ crosscuts and rips with your setup? Making me rethink what’s possible in my space…
For crosscuts, consider this...how often do you really need to crosscut a piece of material that length with precision for a project? I always try to break down lumber into more manageable sizes before they even see a machine, whether it's the short stroke slider or my jointer/thicknesser. It's more efficient (especially for the jointer/thicknesser), potentially safer because the material is easier to handle and allows for more reasonable infeed/outfeed requirements within the shop space available. While I "can" put a very long board on my slider for cross cutting because I have a larger space, I try not to. I break down with a hand-held, battery operated circular saw and go from there. It's rare that any project needs material more than 5-6' long for any one component.

[Jordan Chavez]

For crosscuts, consider this...how often do you really need to crosscut a piece of material that length with precision for a project? I always try to break down lumber into more manageable sizes before they even see a machine, whether it's the short stroke slider or my jointer/thicknesser. It's more efficient (especially for the jointer/thicknesser), potentially safer because the material is easier to handle and allows for more reasonable infeed/outfeed requirements within the shop space available. While I "can" put a very long board on my slider for cross cutting because I have a larger space, I try not to. I break down with a hand-held, battery operated circular saw and go from there. It's rare that any project needs material more than 5-6' long for any one component.

It's not common, but I'm thinking a long wall cleat or trimming the end of a long table. I want to understand the constraints because it limits the maximum size of the pieces I can potentially build. For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.

[mike stenson]

The ability to straight line rip, that Derek has shown, is exactly why I'm always tempted by sliders. For sure, it looks like a smaller footprint than this.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-nSGRQzV/2/b818a057/L/i-nSGRQzV-L.jpg

[mike stenson]

It's not common, but I'm thinking a long wall cleat or trimming the end of a long table. I want to understand the constraints because it limits the maximum size of the pieces I can potentially build. For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.

I agree, this is very helpful for things like long, narrow, casework as well.

[Aaron Inami]

It's not common, but I'm thinking a long wall cleat or trimming the end of a long table. I want to understand the constraints because it limits the maximum size of the pieces I can potentially build. For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.

You can do this on a sliding table saw, but you would want a much longer crosscut fence along with an outrigger table to support that 8' dining table top. Something like the Hammer K4 Perform or Felder K500 Professional:

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/products/sliding-table-saws-c1947/sliding-table-panel-saw-k4-perform-p64676

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/products/sliding-table-saws-c1947/sliding-table-panel-saw-k-500-p143754

However, at this point, you are past the 10 foot wide mark for space requirements. A track saw would work much better in such a small space.

[Michael Burnside]

If I were going to get a slider, the K 500 Profession is the one I would get without question. Does anyone know if imperial scales are an option on the K500? The Mule is moving to a new garage, so I'll have space :D

OP, like mentioned above 8' and 32+" wide 6/4 table is very heavy. That's best left to a hefty slider or even hand held saw/track saw and aluminum guide of sorts.

That said, unlike Jim, I find 5-7' very common in my shop building furniture. My current sideboard is 70" wide and the last few things (dresser, sofa table, coffee table) all were > 5'. I work mostly in hardwood so panel/sider isn't something I use all too often, but I do have a sliding crosscut on my cabinet saw and cross-cutting those is super awesome. It would be equally awesome on a slider, with greater capabilities with respect to sheet goods.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jHRN1zY/harvey-crosscut.jpg

[Prashun Patel]

You sound like me.

A track saw is a pain in the butt for me. I despise setting it up. It's never quite supported perfectly, or the piece is just a bit awkward. For me, I've concluded that a track saw is only usable for me to break down things that are too big to muscle onto a table saw. So I use mine for breaking down sheets and slabs. But almost never for repeat rips.

A cabinet saw is too large for me (I had one for years).

I've been using a bandsaw for the past 3 years without a table saw and it works pretty well. More versatile than a table saw, but keeping it tuned for ripping can be tedious as I also use it for curve cutting, so there are blade changes and tensioning nuissances.

I haven't yet pulled the trigger, but I am seriously considering getting a benchtop table saw. I'm debating between the Bosch that's been around for years, the Skilsaw, and (my likely choice) the Sawstop CTS. The braking system is a nice-to-have (for me). But what is clinching it for me is that it appears to get good reviews for precision. I believe all three have available stands that make them easy to set up and stow away.

[Aaron Inami]

I feel like some of you are not accounting for how much space a slider needs. The pics below are my K700S width, which is the same width requirements of the K500 Professional that Michael wants (if you get the full 49" rip capacity). The width requirement of my saw is exactly 11 feet wide. I do have it spaced 1.5 feet away from the wall for dust collection and enough machine clearance to allow me to use the full 49" for ripping panels. This means 12-1/2 feet total width requirements. For reference, the shop size is exactly 20 x 20 feet and the saw extends significantly over the 10 foot center line mark.

514907514908

Now you could get the 800mm / 31" rip capacity and reduce the width requirement down to 9-1/2 feet. It still takes up a lot of space.

The front-to-back space requirements are also a lot, but I do have a long 9 foot slider. The 9 foot was the longest I could put in and I still have to open my garage door if I want to do a longer cut. A 10 foot slider would be too long.

514909514910

Now this is an extreme case. A short stroke slide would not require as much room, but it gives you an idea of what's needed.

Michael - The K500 Professional is fine if you get the standard 2050mm sliding table (6-2/3 feet). However, if you wanted a longer slider, it is recommended to go with the K700S because the base on the K500 is just too short to properly support such a long slider.

[Aaron Inami]

Does anyone know if imperial scales are an option on the K500?


- You should contact a Felder sales rep. My K700S has a combination imperial/metric on my rip fence and an imperial on the crosscut. I heard Felder was gong to imperial/metric gauges, but you should confirm. These are options that are not necessarily published on the Felder product page.

[Michael Burnside]

Thanks Aaron. I have a pretty big shop, so space isn't a huge concern, but I think a 6'-ish slider is more than enough for me.

[Marc Fenneuff]

For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.

If that's the case, I'll take back my miter saw recommendation and instead say get a track saw.

I have all 3 tools you asked about, and the track saw gets used the least.

[Jim Becker]

It's not common, but I'm thinking a long wall cleat or trimming the end of a long table. I want to understand the constraints because it limits the maximum size of the pieces I can potentially build. For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.
I've crosscut panels like that on mine, although I chose to trip the 7'6" table for our three season porch last summer with my tracksaw. Why? I could bring the tool to the assembly which was darn heavy. You have to pick your battles. Now for wall cleats, I might rip them on the slider, but I'd most certainly trim to length using other means if they are "long-long".

[Todd Zucker]

It's not common, but I'm thinking a long wall cleat or trimming the end of a long table. I want to understand the constraints because it limits the maximum size of the pieces I can potentially build. For example I'm considering building an ~8' dining table this year and whether trimming the panel glueup would be realistic on such a saw.

The likely width of the 8’ dining table probably rules out the miter saw and the MFT for that project at least, unless you are gluing up portions and finishing with hand tools. If you go with a Festool track saw, consider the power and capacity of the different models. I have an older TS 55, and cross cutting thick hardwoods and ripping beveled cleats is not ideal. I saw a newer model a month ago at a Festool road show. Much more power, but the 75 model (which I have not used) might be better. As mentioned in an earlier post, I recently got a table saw, which I already see will largely replace the MFT, track saw and Kapex. If you can find a way to fit one into your garage, it might be the solution. If not, I still think the MFT, track saw, band saw, hand tools and some saw horses will get you a long way with your space requirements. I got the Hammer K3 with the mobility kit. Easy to move, but I don’t plan on moving it. The wheels move perpendicular to the slider, so in your set up, that would be something to consider. You could perhaps arrange it with the slider parallel to your jointer and fit any size sliding carriage with your 17’ clearance, but you would probably need a different mobility kit.

[Derek Cohen]

I took these photos today to demonstrate the extension of the wagon on my K3 with the 1250mm/49" wagon ...

The wagon has a parallel guide on it for tapering legs.

https://i.postimg.cc/Cx3X58nt/K3-1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/hGVwdG9G/K3-2.jpg

That does not look like much, does it?

Regards from Perth

Derek