Dining room carver chairs - Take 2 [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Derek Cohen

01-27-2024, 12:46 PM

About a month ago I began a thread about designing and building two carver chairs to accompany the 6 bentwood chairs we have owned for the past 40 years. The chairs were purchased all those years ago along with a table, which is around 200 years old. We need a larger table, and time has come to replace it and add two more chairs.

https://i.postimg.cc/63MJ4nCz/8.jpg

The table planned will be a modern version of this, in Hard Maple and round Jarrah legs. The carver chairs need to match the table and blend with these chairs. Our taste is minimalist, Mid Century Danish, modern. An example of the lines I seek is this sofa table I built several years ago ...

https://i.postimg.cc/yx4sxhFD/28a.jpg

So I started thinking about the chairs I would build, and I took inspiration from this picture ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2jFFwq2R/est-living-sorrento-light-house-wolveridge-architects-3-750x540.jpg

... and began to evolve a design along similar lines. The 8 legs were started (just need rounding) and the seats carved, and then the tenons were cut. And that is where the problem arose. I had this idea for integrated tenons into through mortices in the legs. Very few chairs are built like this, and for a good reason - you cannot control for run out in the tenons, and run out make for weak tenons. And that is what I discovered. So I stopped the build, and decided to begin again from scratch.

I started looking more carefully at the chair I had come across and had treated rather casually. It has a name: DC 09, and it was designed by the Japanese- Scandinavian duo, Kyoko Inoda and Nils Sveje, in 2011. It is built by the Miyazaki factory in Japan.

https://i.postimg.cc/NMbFyw7V/Chair-seat9.webp

There is a challenge here - can I replicate it purely from photos? This is unlikely since one needs to examine an object in three dimensions to discover the subtleties of the design and construction. I have experience of this, having made an exact copy of Hans Wegner's "The Chair" or the "Round Chair" several years ago. What made this possible is that I own an original. One is mine and one is Wegner's ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vBptQzdn/The-Chair.jpg

So the chairs I build will not be exact, but hopefully close. Actually, I am still on the fence about the arms and back and may modify this ... but will will see. We need to start with the seat. That is the key.

Help comes from two video I found ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yLS-aoBXNI&ab_channel=yasuhiromurai

https://vimeo.com/438408781

Some dimensions:

https://i.postimg.cc/L6Sg82KH/Chair-plan1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/m2SzcJB7/Chair-plan2.jpg

The doors above my bench make a place to pin details and photos ..

https://i.postimg.cc/nV4M5gsN/New1.jpg

The seat plan was scaled and drawn using images from the videos and photos.

Two half-templates were created - the first was a straight-sided outline of the seat. The reason for this is that I planned to use loose tenon joinery, which would enable the tenons to have straight grain for maximum strength, and the mortices would be made using a Domino. These would be 30mm long x 10mm wide, in other words would use custom-made loose tenons. The straight sides would make it easier to cut the mortices ahead of shaping the seats.

The second half-template was the actual outline of the seat, and this positions the tenons.

https://i.postimg.cc/jdRCrcP2/New3.jpg

Here the tenons are positioned ...

https://i.postimg.cc/MpTTnGs8/New5.jpg

A little jack-planning to flatten the underside of the seat blanks ..

https://i.postimg.cc/KY385HSq/New6.jpg

Derek Cohen

01-27-2024, 12:47 PM

These are now sawn to shape ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RFcCkJ0w/New7.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/kgp5KdZR/New8.jpg

After this was done it became apparent just how the first shaping of the chairs differed from the DC09 design. Here is the first chair along with two legs. In the background can be seen the plan I had made for that build ...

https://i.postimg.cc/pTNXcJP2/New2.jpg

It looks quite good, with the angles and spacings appearing correct. In fact, they are quite different from the DC09. Below is the DC09 seat below the first seat. You can see the positioning of the legs ..

https://i.postimg.cc/brpYpYGW/New9.jpg

Before I dominoed the mortices, the legs were mocked up to be sure of the angles. I discovered that they should be at 14 degrees and not 10 degrees, as they had been before. In the top right corner you can see a DC09 for comparison ...

https://i.postimg.cc/brgyJXkJ/New10.jpg

Guides for 14 degrees ...

https://i.postimg.cc/SQfNV93h/New11.jpg

Marked and morticed ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vH88KBw6/New13.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/02t51s9X/New15.jpg

Tenons were made on the router table ...

https://i.postimg.cc/wj7q6Gvq/New14.jpg

All is looking right so far ...

https://i.postimg.cc/BnkqtBLx/New16.jpg

All advice gratefully received.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

01-27-2024, 10:38 PM

I was asked how I developed the drawings and plans, especially as there are numerous compound angles. It is a important question for those who want to use the ideas that are around us.

What I do is explore the videos and all photos, and then screen save relevant examples. From this I estimate or calculate size, approximate dimensions, and refine these over multiple examples. Here are some of the photos I used ....

https://i.postimg.cc/4dgR9J65/Seats1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/GBqf0nS8)

https://i.postimg.cc/G3zn4nHF/Seats2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XXZzPhKq)

https://i.postimg.cc/kgLm7NDL/Seats3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/fbXhy39y/Seats4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/J07wpPdH/Seats5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/90L6KZv8/Seats6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/wj1zK4xh/Seats7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/TwJMjZQX/Seats8.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CB5QSrWv)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

01-29-2024, 8:01 AM

A question about loose tenons

The legs will be joined to the seat with loose tenon mortice-and-tenon joinery. The tenons are Hard Maple, as with the rest of the build. I am in the process of choosing the stock for the 10mm wide x 30mm long tenons. The aim is to ensure that these are the best for a chair. Not any other purpose, but a chair.

The issue is grain direction: is it better to have the grain running horizontal or vertical?

https://i.postimg.cc/mDHjc20g/Tenon1.jpg

Vertical grain should offer more rigidity, while horizontal grain more flexibility. While is preferred - your opinion?

The square stock is shaped on the router table ...

https://i.postimg.cc/gc34mjVM/Tenon2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sxCc5Cr9/Tenon3.jpg

This is how it will look in the leg through mortice (minus the wedge and the rounded leg) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tJdz5vR0/Tenon4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Gary Focht

01-29-2024, 5:49 PM

My first impression was to prefer the horizontal grain as that should be more dimensionally stable - essentially quarter sawn.

Then I decided I’m not sure why it matters as plenty of flat sawn rails are mortised into legs and that orientation also seems to work.

And now I’m back to the quarter sawn orientation for no good reason other than quarter sawn lumber is generally considered better. Is it not?

Richard Verwoest

01-30-2024, 5:30 PM

And if you are wedging, would you not want the grain to run horizontal?

Derek Cohen

01-30-2024, 6:53 PM

And if you are wedging, would you not want the grain to run horizontal?

Richard, while that makes sense aesthetically (and the direction I am inclined towards), I am not sure that it is necessary since the saw kerf should end in a drilled hole, which would prevent splitting.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Richard Verwoest

01-31-2024, 12:58 PM

Derek, I see your point....but...if your grain ran vertical, and you wedged, then the wedging forces would be against the vertical grain on the legs. Therefore, possibly splitting the leg? Beautiful chair by the way. And I fully enjoy the detail you give in every build thread. Thank you sir!

Derek Cohen

02-04-2024, 9:43 AM

This is a long post with a good many photos. Treat them like a comic strip - flip by. It's just that there is so much more than one might realise that needs to get done when carving a seat. It is a 3D construction, and more complicated than joining square sections. This will become apparent as we progress.

These are the two seats. Both have been prepped with drilled holed to carve to depth. My plan is to work two seats alongside one another, completing a section on one and then duplicating it on the other, moving on, back-and-forth. The first stage is to power carve the rear of the seat using the Arbortech ...

https://i.postimg.cc/FKD0ZDY8/Build1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/rswT4Gd8/Build-dots.jpg

Garage doors make for a handy white board to hang photos. These are the seats, and the angles provide the needed guidance.

https://i.postimg.cc/zDMS6tx1/Buil2.jpg

First shaping ..

https://i.postimg.cc/dVR27qwq/Build3.jpg

It's rougher than it looks. A travisher begins the process of smoothing the curves ..

https://i.postimg.cc/1XLGFX8z/Buil4.jpg

Every now-and-then a scraper will refine the tear out ...

https://i.postimg.cc/wvMLbLJv/Build5.jpg

We begin the front section of the seat now, again using the Arbortech carver ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Bnf5Q8WY/Build6.jpg

And refine with a travisher ..

https://i.postimg.cc/fLPm4yjv/Build7.jpg

... always feeling the surface with a hand to detect any uinevenness ...

https://i.postimg.cc/xd0KMW1L/Build8.jpg

It is beginning to resemble the photos ...

https://i.postimg.cc/PrwzjW7v/Build9.jpg

At this stage it is time to cut out the seat surround, but before this can be done, the mortices (for the loose tenons) need to be preserved. This is not straight forward as they angle at 14 degrees. As a result, it is not possible to saw from end to end. The area around the tenon will require extra shaping.

My plan was to drill alongside the base, which would refine it and also create a curved root ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mkFMT4mW/Build10.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3W5GRqq4/Build11.jpg

Then as much as possible was sawn away with a jigsaw ...

https://i.postimg.cc/wxtb1sPg/Build12.jpg

Derek Cohen

02-04-2024, 9:44 AM

Time to refine the front section and tenons. To do this, the underside of the seat needed to be made perfectly flat: this will provide a reference side to mark the boundaries at the front for carving to; also, taking down the bottom will define the bottom of the tenons ..

https://i.postimg.cc/HWfvXkD5/Build13.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/W1V9YY41/Build14.jpg

The shape of the underside is estimated using the templates for the top side ..

https://i.postimg.cc/BnCmr58c/Build15.jpg

.. and refined with a rasp ..

https://i.postimg.cc/VNGD6YWJ/Build16.jpg

Waste sawn away ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vmH0b1fR/Build17.jpg

.. and shaped ...

https://i.postimg.cc/02DWf1P4/Build18.jpg

Again and again ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mDPV10m8/Build19.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/76j93mcD/Build20.jpg

Finally the front of the seat can be shaped as it flows from the end of the tenons ...

https://i.postimg.cc/QNW08Z9M/Build21.jpg

With raking light, the tear out and bumps are more easily seen, and now sanded down with 80 grit (more will be done much later on) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/BbDgM29F/Build22.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/gkF4rt8H/Build23.jpg

And that's it for today. Underside shaping to come.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

02-18-2024, 10:20 AM

Time to finish the seats ... sort of ... well, very close.

This is where we start - two seats completed on the upper side ...

https://i.postimg.cc/x1hh0MQJ/Build33.jpg

Looking at the seat blanks from the side, it is apparent that they are 2" thick ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XJ0P5Wpn/Build34.jpg

... and they need to end up looking slim, like this ...

https://i.postimg.cc/43cMny48/Build40.jpg

Clearly, there is a great deal of waste to remove from the sides. That is, not to thin the thickness, but to taper the sides to create the impression of thinness.

Here is another view, which better illustrates this ...

https://i.postimg.cc/pLR4yR5x/Build45.jpg

The MFT makes a good bench for carving ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RCdYWj9z/Build35.jpg

Lines are roughly pencilled on the seat and then the Arbortech is used to carve away as much waste as possible ..

https://i.postimg.cc/4xmjkwDR/Build36.jpg

I relied on a Auriou 10-grain rasp to do most of the shaping ...

https://i.postimg.cc/d1mxmfyr/Build37.jpg

... until I was loaned the largest rasp I have ever seen. Large enough to cause most here rasp-envy. It says Nicholson on it, but it appeared larger than a Nicholson #50, and far, far coarser than the 11-grain it is advertised as having. Any ideas?

https://i.postimg.cc/MH6rsY74/Build38.jpg

I moved between rasps and spokeshaves to shape and smooth the curves ..

https://i.postimg.cc/Kj0pCgQY/Build39.jpg

To be frank, I worked without a specific plan other than to create fair curves - the curves almost decided what waste to remove, while I monitored the photos I had for reassurance.

In the end, with everything sanded to 80-grit, this was the result. From the underside ...

https://i.postimg.cc/TYP4gCY5/Build41.jpg

The upper side, from the rear end ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rFYYJxKn/Build42.jpg

And side ...

https://i.postimg.cc/52YKkyzx/Build43.jpg

And one more photo, taken at an angle similar to the "slim line" view above ...

https://i.postimg.cc/8s842BMN/Build44.jpg

There is still work remaining in the seats: every time I look at the chair photos new details become apparent. So I shall get on with the legs, and return to fine-tune the seats later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Larry Frank

02-18-2024, 7:41 PM

Beautiful seats and amazing work.

Derek Cohen

02-19-2024, 11:06 AM

Thanks Larry.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ron Selzer

02-19-2024, 1:44 PM

Derek
While I will never do the style work you do, I enjoy reading about your progress, work methods, and why you do what you do. I do pick up methods that help me with how I build. All the pictures definitely help to understand what you are accomplishing and help me to learn.
Ron

Derek Cohen

02-19-2024, 5:52 PM

Thanks Ron

Regards from Perth

Derek

William Fretwell

02-19-2024, 9:56 PM

I think the vertical tenon grain is the strongest choice. The mortice worries me however, I could not get an idea how deep the mortice is. The mortice grain is horisontal and not much of it around the tenon in the seat. It looks prone to cracking.
While mortice depth helps the leverage is on the outer edge of the mortice.

Derek Cohen

02-20-2024, 7:29 AM

William, the mortice is 28mm deep.

Regards from Perth

Derek

William Fretwell

02-20-2024, 8:40 AM

Such a short mortice will place most of the 50lb force on the outer top edge of the mortice. Not much wood there.
Angling the tenon up into the mortice would put more force deeper into the seat, significantly increasing the strength.
It would also greatly increase the supporting wood at the edge.
You could make one of each design to test what happens.
Your chairs will be likely little used and give them to the light people when there are!

William Fretwell

02-20-2024, 9:06 AM

Looking at the original chair again the supports are right across the seat bottom, carved out of the wood. The tenon is just the end of this seat support, a very strong design.

Derek Cohen

02-20-2024, 9:19 AM

William, I am going to disagree with you on this occasion.

Firstly, the loose tenon lies 28mm inside the seat and 28-30mm outside (as a through tenon). This is as much depth as is used on many chairs built professionally. Plus the loose tenon is a tight fit. No play.

Secondly, the reason for the loose tenon is that this enables the tenon grain to be orientated for maximum strength. The original chair does not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

William Fretwell

02-20-2024, 7:18 PM

Derek the two designs are completely different. The weak part of your design is not the tenon but the mortice around the tenon, not much wood. Claiming the tenon depth is commonly used means nothing, you have to look at the mortice it uses. ‘Loose tenon orientates grain’ ??
The original design is brilliant, there’s no additional mortice, the rock solid tenon goes into the rock solid mortice. PLEASE tell me you can see this!

Derek Cohen

02-21-2024, 2:06 AM

William, I am very aware of the issues here. In fact, I ditched the first set of seats - which had integral tenons, as per the original design - as the wood grain had run out which weakened the tenons. That was when I decided to use loose tenons, where I could control the run out. I chose straight-grained stock, and am also orientating the grain for maximum strength.

The strength of the tenon lies with the root as well as the fit. The ideal root is integral, but this is not possible, and one must resort to a rule for sufficient strength. The rule here is 1/2 - 2/3 the thickness of the mortised piece. The seat is 40mm thick. The tenon is 30mm x 10mm (the latter is 1/3 of the 30mm leg width). Its surround is 5mm. The ideal mortice depth for the loose tenon would then be 20 - 27mm. I have made it 28mm, with 23mm buried in the seat and 5mm in the surround. The fit is tight, that is, no slop and no need for gap filling.

It would be good to hear the opinions of others (after all, that is what these posts are all about). :)

Incidentally, I had a similar discussion when I built two beds about a year ago. What I did for the rails, which also had 28mm deep mortises and loose tenons, was add a pin to each side. Is that is another option here, or just overkill?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jeff Wittrock

02-25-2024, 6:17 PM

Derek,

Great to see your progress. I think the seats are beautiful.
Can't wait to see the legs attached.

Years ago, I made a light weight rocking chair. It was the first chair I ever attempted. I remember looking at the joinery used by Sam Maloof on his Rockers and doing a quite bad job of trying to emulate them.
Despite that and just using screws to hold the joints together with almost no long grain to long grain, it has held together well over the years despite the abuse my son has given it.

I have no doubt the long grain to long grain loose tenons you are using will make a solid and reliable joint.

-Jeff

Derek Cohen

02-25-2024, 7:34 PM

Thanks Jeff. I have almost completed the 8 legs - re-made them from scratch. More on this shortly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

02-26-2024, 9:18 AM

New Legs

Every time I sit down to write up the progress made I feel like apologising for how little there is to show for the efforts made. I have made this observation before - it is tough to copy from photos when there are no measurements to follow, but it is especially so when the piece is curved and changes shape from different angles. I keep finding new detail to add in, and it seems like a never ending carousel.

One example, the front underside of the seat is concave and not convex. I added this, but need to do more ...

https://i.postimg.cc/3NQrtTxZ/L1.jpg

The seats need quite a bit more work, mainly refining details. For example, the sides need to be tapered more. For later.

For now I return to the legs.

I did make 8 legs when building Mark 1 of the chairs, but now I am about to re-make them completely. Why? Because the first set of legs were designed for a chair which was inspired by the DC 09 Chair, but now that I am attempting to get close to this design, the legs also need to be in keeping.

Step one was to create a template, and then mark out 8 legs. These were bandsawed close to the lines, and then cleaned up with spokeshaves ...

https://i.postimg.cc/PrhrZTcX/L2.jpg

The second time around is always easier, and marking out the mortises was much more efficient by measuring the front of the legs ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7ZZHsXwj/L3.jpg

... and then dropping the verticals ...

https://i.postimg.cc/057ybbVX/L4.jpg

This is made possible by ensuring all sides were kept square when the leg blanks were made.

As before, the Domino was used to mortice the through tenons. The legs are clamped to a mortising fixture.

https://i.postimg.cc/yNJVBdJP/L5.jpg

The mortises are 30mm long and 10mm wide, and through the 30mm thick legs. Since the Domino 500 can only rout to a depth of 28mm, it was done by working half way from each side.

The mortise needed to be marked very accurately, and to do this I used a marking jig I developed and wrote about recently ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0jGk3B61/L7.jpg

The article is here: https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/DominoDW500AsAMortiser.html

It was possible to be as accurate as this for both sides and all the legs ...

https://i.postimg.cc/MKWqHtMX/L6.jpg

This ended with a pile of legs blanks plus mortises ..

https://i.postimg.cc/rFJyN7XS/L8.jpg

Early on in the build of Mark 1, I attempted to use a half-round bit on a router table to round the legs. This was a disaster as the Rock Maple blew up, leaving me with wet trousers. Looking back on this sad experience, I realised that I had literally bitten off more than I should have chewed. So I was determined to try again, but this time rout in stages, little-by-little ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0jvxp0VW/L9.jpg

The leg at the rear is one I attempted purely with spokeshaves. It was a miserable experience - Rock Maple is well named.

Here are 8 semi-finished legs. The corners have been rounded, but much of the leg is still square-ish owing to the tapered profile - the legs start at 35mm at the top, are 30mm by the mortise, and end at 22mm at the feet. Consequently, there is still a whole lot of shaping still to do.

https://i.postimg.cc/Kj5bQ3VZ/L10.jpg

Look closely and you can see the flats on the sides.

There followed a lot of spokeshaving.

A progress shot of 4 completed legs and 4 incompleted legs ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L4kmmGsr/L13.jpg

"Completed" really means "done for now". There is constant refining. Slowly the square becomes less so, and then round, but with imperfections, and then eventually there are just fine tracks ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Mp3WhRGH/L11.jpg

I must admit that it is so tempting to leave it like this, where fingers can caress the tool marks ...

https://i.postimg.cc/g0fG0W8P/L12.jpg

This would look better on a different style of chair, and the DC 09 is better suited to a sanded finish.

Here are two of the legs to gauge progress. Note the photo on the wall in the background for comparison (also recognise that the arm section of the legs has been left long at this stage)...

https://i.postimg.cc/qRy4h5x6/L14.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/rFQcrWxj/L15.jpg

Until next time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ben Ellenberger

02-26-2024, 10:51 AM

Jim Koepke

02-26-2024, 1:55 PM

Looks great, I have forgotten to keep track of this thread. (a lot of work around the house, shop and greenhouse to keep up)

In one of your updates you asked for any ideas:

... until I was loaned the largest rasp I have ever seen. Large enough to cause most here rasp-envy. It says Nicholson on it, but it appeared larger than a Nicholson #50, and far, far coarser than the 11-grain it is advertised as having. Any ideas?

To me that looks similar to a farriers rasp, for fitting shoes on horses.

516078

jtk

Derek Cohen

02-26-2024, 6:42 PM

Thanks for posting. I’m enjoying following along with the design iterations and problem-solving.

I’ve had pretty good success making octagonal hard maple legs using a jack plane for the majority of the bulk removal. That’s another option that could reduce the amount of time with a spokeshave. I agree it makes you understand the name rock maple! I find myself stopping to sharpen much more often; as soon as the blade gets a little dull the effort goes way up.

In any case - the chairs are looking good.

Thanks for the comments, Ben.

In this case, using a jack plane for the legs is out of the question since the legs are curved (as well as tapered).

The reason for the router was to remove as much waste as possible, and also to create some lines to follow. Rounding the corners and creating fair curves is best for a hollow spokeshave, and I have used two, a LN and a Stanley, depending on the width of the section.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

03-03-2024, 11:45 AM

When I began this build, I looked at the legs of this chair and recognised that they were curved, tapered and oval. Well, oval at the top and round at the bottom ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5J4qVdR/Chair2.jpg

I wasn't sure how to do this - the tapered oval shape. I just accepted that I would discover this as we went along.

I began by shaping the legs in profile and cut the mortises ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rFJyN7XS/L8.jpg

Then knocked off the corners with a round over bit. The leg at the rear was an attempt to do all with just spokeshaves - not great. The round over provides a helpful guide ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0jvxp0VW/L9.jpg

This left them rectangular with rounded corners. This weekend the rectangles became tapered ovals.

Working at the bench, holding the legs in a clamp ...

https://i.postimg.cc/HW7pvJmp/LL1.jpg

The first step was to cover the legs in pencil scribble. The purpose here is to make it easier to see where I am working. This Rock Maple is so light in colour and difficult to pick up details.

https://i.postimg.cc/Zn34WQH9/LL2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/CLTw3FMb/LL3.jpg

Some of the waste had already been removed by spokeshaves, but now the final shaping needed to take place. The tools used were a convex spokeshave and a set of convex scrapers - different sizes.

Once sharpened, the scraper make nice shavings ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XvHVmdXv/LL5.jpg

The scrapers also provided a template for the curves to be retained on the legs. The taper on the sides of the legs goes from 40mm at the top to 30mm at the mortice to 25mm at the feet. The edges (facing forward and rearward) is a uniform 30mm. So this meant that there was a single convex scraper for the edges and two scrapers for the sides.

This is the difference between a scraper and the leg ...

https://i.postimg.cc/TwBTYxVM/LL4.jpg

Running it along the leg reveals the low section through the centre ...

https://i.postimg.cc/ZqKbwVbg/LL6.jpg

As you work down, so the curve increases, and the high spot gets smaller ...

https://i.postimg.cc/HswTHfjR/LL7.jpg

The convex spokeshave helps out ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XJrVbqyk/LL8.jpg

Also, angling the scraper allows a wider cutter to follow the outline of a narrower section ...

https://i.postimg.cc/sgKyG7YJ/LL9.jpg

Eventually, the scraper and the leg share the same profile ..

https://i.postimg.cc/5t0JBypW/LL10.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sXGRLLtn/LL11.jpg

Lots of work on a very humid weekend. All legs completed now ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0NBscvHM/LL12.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

03-04-2024, 8:02 AM

I must admit that this is an unusual build for me. I literally do not know what I am doing ... insofar as I have to keep returning to parts to refine and refine them. That is what is so time consuming. I don't always score high on being sensible, but I do on perseverance and being bloody minded!

Today was not a work day, and I ear-marked completing the seats. The upper side was 99% done, but the underside needed fine-tuning. I have two photos to guide the shaping ...

https://i.postimg.cc/4dgR9J65/Seats1.jpg

That one (above) is from the factory building the prototype. They screwed the legs to the seat, rather than use integrated tenons. This proved to be a great model in my case.

The second photo is a production chair seat taken from the underside. In particular, this shows the treatment of the smoothing of the tenons and their integration with the back ...

https://i.postimg.cc/G3zn4nHF/Seats2.jpg

Lastly, I keep returning to this photo of the chair, which shows how thin the seat looks from the side. Keeping in mind that the seats started out at 50mm, and were 40mm after the plan was cut out, a great deal of tapering was necessary to achieve this look ...

https://i.postimg.cc/43cMny48/Build40.jpg

Here are the two completed seats. The seat on the left is face up, and the seat on the right is bottom up ...

https://i.postimg.cc/s21hntrQ/Seat1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Larry Frank

03-04-2024, 7:57 PM

The seats have a very clean looking line to them. (I do not know any other words to describe them!)

It is so impressive watch your work progress.

Derek Cohen

03-04-2024, 11:07 PM

Thanks Larry.

It is so helpful receiving feedback. I was not sure if anyone was getting something from all this. It feel back-and-forth to me. The thread was intended for discussing and there has been little.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ben Ellenberger

03-04-2024, 11:29 PM

I’m enjoying following it. I don’t often post unless I have something specific to say, but I appreciate people’s build threads that “think out loud” and show their approach to design and construction. I appreciate the effort you put into documenting your process.

Ron Selzer

03-04-2024, 11:52 PM

Derek I look at everything you post. I don't feel competent to discuss work at the level you are producing. I feel I have learned from what you post and hope you keep on posting. I can appreciate what you are producing, not willing to comment on it.
Ron

Derek Cohen

03-05-2024, 7:57 AM

Thanks Ben. Thanks Ron.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. There are no stupid questions. That's how we all learn. Me too.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tony Shea

03-06-2024, 10:26 AM

Please keep posting the progress Derek! Even if we aren't all saying something I can guarantee we are all watching! The seats came out amazing! I can't wait to see what they look like on the chair frame. Doing all that shaping in rock maple is no joke! I know exactly how grueling that work is. Thanks for posting this and look forward to seeing the rest!! Amazing work as always Derek!

Derek Cohen

03-06-2024, 11:05 AM

Thanks Tony!

I'll get back to the chairs this weekend. The plan is sanding seats and legs (I am so ambivalent here as the finish off the scrapers has a luster, and leaves lovely fine tracks which you can feel with fingers). Then to prepare the loose tenons (they must fit the base and the legs, and be sawn for wedges), shape the tenon base, cut the legs to length, and then glue together.

Monday I will be in hospital for an op on my left patella, and forced to rest for a couple of days.

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Carroll

03-06-2024, 12:10 PM

Derek,

I've also been following along with a great deal of enjoyment. I haven't ever made any chairs, the closest thing was a stick built footstool, which came out nicely enough, but went together under protest. Your seat carving is lovely and I entirely agree about the scraping vs. Sanding dilemma. (I'm facing the same situation on my current project).

Good luck with the knee surgery and the forced rest!

DC

Ron Selzer

03-06-2024, 12:34 PM

Good luck with the surgery
Ron

Todd Zucker

03-06-2024, 1:53 PM

I also follow and learn from your posts but don't often have anything helpful to add.

The chair seats do have clean and nice looking lines and curves.

Keep the posts coming, and good luck with the surgery.

Jim Koepke

03-06-2024, 6:28 PM

I am also inspired by your work Derek. Wish I could do something as nice. Today my big struggle was with an angled lap joint.

Here is hoping for you surgery to go well with a swift recovery.

jtk

Derek Cohen

03-07-2024, 4:49 AM

Thanks David. Thanks Todd. Thanks Jim. Nice to know you are on board. Please do feel free to chip in with your own experiences.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Joe Bailey

03-07-2024, 10:12 AM

Derek,

Your forethought is as inspiring as your execution.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Derek Cohen

03-07-2024, 11:13 AM

Thanks Joe. Much appreciated.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

03-10-2024, 9:43 AM

Today we reached the milestone I was patiently (okay, not so patiently) waiting for - glueing up the legs and seats. To get to this stage, however, required matching the mortices with the loose tenons, matching the loose tenons with the leg mortices, cutting slots for the wedges (into the tenons), and shaping the tenon mortise to fit the legs.

Let's start with the obvious. This is how the tenon and the tenon mortise will end up looking ...

https://i.postimg.cc/59Fn4PRM/T2a.jpg

The loose tenon is 30mm wide and 10mm thick. It extends 28mm into the tenon mortise ...

https://i.postimg.cc/15hMfpkV/T3a.jpg

This all looks rather neat, but it was the end result of further shaping to fit the legs with the seat. The issue was that the seat mortices were chunky ...

https://i.postimg.cc/s21hntrQ/Seat1.jpg

When joined, this was the fit ...

https://i.postimg.cc/9QcpBcFW/T4a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/JnHchnKQ/T5a.jpg

Two steps were involved. Firstly, the tenon mortise was reshaped to be thinner at the face (this involved removal of waste at the top edge and not the sides, which is needed support for the loose tenon) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J4NxJs86/T6a.jpg

Secondly, the face of the leg mortise was planed flat to match the face of the seat mortise ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tgTNLDxw/T7a.jpg

This is how the original chair was fitted - photo I posted early on ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kgLm7NDL/Seats3.jpg

This is the result ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kgwy1LBW/T8a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/HLh9H50x/T9a.jpg

All the parts fitted, but not yet glued up ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rs6GRkP2/T10a.jpg

Loose tenons slotted for wedges, along with the wedges. Glue of choice: Old Brown hide glue. Why? Because at some stage in the future, hopefully many years from now, it is likely that the joinery will need to be re-glued.

https://i.postimg.cc/D0qrqM9J/T11a.jpg

The seat tenons are glued first and the glue allowed to dry (they are a bit long here, and were cut shorter before the legs were attached) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/65XL9BZd/T12.jpg

And a last photo of the final glue up. It will remain so for 24 hours.

https://i.postimg.cc/mZMyfPPL/T13.jpg

Starting to look like chairs! ;)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tony Wilkins

03-10-2024, 11:03 AM

Pretty cool little touch that I doubt most people will notice but would notice if it wasn’t there. Coming together nicely.

Derek Cohen

03-10-2024, 11:09 AM

Which one are you referring to, Tony? And thanks.

Kind regards

Derek

Tony Wilkins

03-10-2024, 4:27 PM

The flat on the leg

Greg Wold

03-10-2024, 6:10 PM

Those are really looking good, Derek. Had you considered using hidden wedges on the tenon, into the seat? That might've made future re-glues less likely; or perhaps have been too likely to split the seat?

Derek Cohen

03-10-2024, 7:27 PM

Thanks Greg ... and welcome to SMC.

I did think of pinning the tenons, but decided against this as it is likely to just damage them. Glue should be fine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

03-12-2024, 2:19 AM

A note about wedges

This is a cross post from the Australian forum, where I was asked for more information about the wedged through tenons.

I am not sure if the photo provided must detail, but the wedges are tapers, but also long and skinny ...

https://i.postimg.cc/D0qrqM9J/T11a.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

They both fill the slot - which is full of glue - and create a wedging action, firmly pushing the tenon edges against the glued insides of the mortise. The mortises, both in the seat and legs was 30mm long. Most were exact, some of the legs were a little under a mm long. A little filing for all to create this tiny gap - it does not have to be more. The glue is enough and the wedges are security. Interestingly, this appears to be the same in the original chair, with the exception that they added a chamfer for the end of the wedge. I've never seen this before ..

https://i.postimg.cc/SxSH9Pb8/Chair-seat5.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QHz6G0tx)

In addition to the wedged legs (I am trusting that the small amount of taper inside the mortises will add an extra layer of solidness), the arm/back structure adds stiffness and resists the legs wracking/moving. It is akin to triangulation of the construction (not really triangles, of course).

I have removed the clamps and the structure is really stiff already - I will wait until Lynndy is out of the way to take some photos. She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed is keeping a steely eye on my "taking it easy" today! https://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/anoyd.gif [Explanation: I was in hospital yesterday for an op on my left torn patella]

Later:

I snuck into the workshop to unclamp the glue up. Lynndy caught me! But she then asked to sit on one of the chairs (sans the arms and back). She did so gently, and then with all her weight (55Kg). The seats did not even sigh, and nothing moved. She proclaimed the seat very comfortable. Yay!

Tenons and wedges yet to be cut and levelled ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Sx1x8Y9c/T15.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0yyNb0z8/T14.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Ritter

03-12-2024, 10:35 AM

Wow Derek stellar work. It’s been a while since I’ve poked my nose under the tent and a had a couple of pages to catch up on. Hope your surgery went well and you are recovering nicely. The chairs are going to be beautiful, heck they are beautiful now.
Jim

Jim Koepke

03-13-2024, 2:18 PM

Great work. Could it be the chamfers for the end of the wedges was to accommodate a more aggresive wedge? A long, glued tongue would hold the wedge while the part in the chamfer would taper the wedge more in a mortise.

jtk

Derek Cohen

03-13-2024, 7:39 PM

Jim, I can imagine the "what" and even the "why", but struggle to understand the reason it was considered necessary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Koepke

03-14-2024, 1:24 AM

It could have been decorative with a wider contrasting band across the tenon. Maybe even a small wedge in the wedge to punch it up a bit.

It could have also allowed for more taper in the mortise.

Worst of all would be, "that's how my teacher always told me to do it." :eek:

jtk

Derek Cohen

03-23-2024, 10:16 AM

Beginning the arms and back

The legs and seats are done and it is time to move to the arms and backs. Once again, the chair to provide a context of where we are headed ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5J4qVdR/Chair2.jpg

I was fortunate to find a few photos on the Web showing the development of the arms/back, which provided some insight into how to construct this ...

https://i.postimg.cc/QMZ2sPJH/Seats4.jpg

The construction sequence that was really helpful was this (note these are from the underneath) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/654YGP1c/Arms1.jpg

While this makes it all appear accessible, my experience building a Hand Wegner chair prepared me for the large chunks that make up the two arms and the back ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m11f0c459.jpg

Giant slabs and lots of carving (since, unlike the factory, I do not have a CNC machine) ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairShapingArmsBackPart1_html_m2b87da0c.jpg

But look at the first photo in that sequence - the back is angled into the arms. Wonderful - less to carve!

https://i.postimg.cc/L81ccRfc/Arms2.jpg

The arms need to be shaped from blocks 90mm high, so I got busy laminating ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dQx53FnD/Arms7.jpg

And while this was drying, time was spent on getting the profile for the side of the arms ...

https://i.postimg.cc/W4RvztTp/Arms3.jpg

There's a photo on the wall behind against which to compare. Also, a first look at the completed through tenons.

That's the easy stuff. Time to design the arm and back profiles.

We start with a seat ...

https://i.postimg.cc/s2pRhygY/Arms8.jpg

... to use to frame around ...

https://i.postimg.cc/xCnVG7XW/Arms9.jpg

After much back-and-fro drawing, rubbing out, re-drawing, and transfering to MDF for templates ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J7TCJpM2/Arms10.jpg

Each of the blocks (seen beng glued up earlier) create four arm blanks ...

https://i.postimg.cc/PJqG9wzy/Arms11.jpg

Here is the side elevation ...

https://i.postimg.cc/QtmGfb5V/Arms12.jpg

Wood for the backs came from sawing up this 3m long board ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Vk0wzXyH/Arms13.jpg

And, for now, the backs are laminated and drying alongside the other blanks and templates ..

https://i.postimg.cc/cC5qSLFS/Arms14.jpg

Tomorrow I shall begin cutting it all up, and joining pieces together.

A question for all is how you might connect/join the arms with the legs? Note that the back will be joined angled to the sides, as per the photo.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Patrick McCarthy

03-23-2024, 11:51 AM

Derek, Fascinating project. Having done a few Maloof rockers, and armed with your guidance set forth herein, i think i will try one of these. Very generous of you to share so much of the detail. Thank you kindly.

Carry on, and Slainte, Patrick

Derek Cohen

03-24-2024, 10:46 AM

Thanks Patrick. I hope you post your work here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

03-24-2024, 10:46 AM

Here is the work done today, which was preparing the arms before shaping. Critical work, and the day went well. This was mainly due to working methodically. Looking back it all seemed so logical and straightforward, but it didn't feel this way before hand.

The first task was to bandsaw all the blocks of wood into shape, having outlined the parts with the templates.

https://i.postimg.cc/PJQ1PnTx/Arm1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Lining up the arm parts for two chairs, three for each ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mZYYdCCs/Arm2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

At first I thought I would clamp them together and balance the lot on top of each chair ... no, that would be silly! :) The chairs were turned upside down on the arms ...

https://i.postimg.cc/43c7YR1g/Arm3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This revealed that the spread of the arms was a little too wide. The arm supports need to be centred on the arm rests ...

https://i.postimg.cc/zGcKLjZn/Arm4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Before adjusting this, the next stage needed to be to cut the arm supports to length. To do this, first the template for the arm elevation was positioned ...

https://i.postimg.cc/ncTvxx3S/Arm5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

... and then a template was made to position this ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7Z6SYRcH/Arm6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This allowed all the arms supports to be marked on both sides ..

https://i.postimg.cc/hGQxVdcN/Arm7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

.. and marked with blue tape ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J4RbS05B/Arm8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The excess is sawn away ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XJM5LYvq/Arm9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The template also enables the accuracy of the saw cuts to be checked, and for square. This will need to be fine tuned later, but good for now ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kGst7NvR/Arm10.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/W3MkHcDn/Arm11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The underside of the arms are marked so the positions on each will be the same, and the overhang at the rear was roughly calculated. Again, this will be adjusted after the arms parts are joined.

Now the top rail can be positioned for sizing ..

https://i.postimg.cc/sxshFH7R/Arm13.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It is marked for sawing ...

https://i.postimg.cc/G3xDPrn3/Arm14.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Derek Cohen

03-24-2024, 10:47 AM

Aligned on the slider ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RVPn8R0j/Arm15.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

All the ends of the arms are squared this way, however the saw has a maximum cut height of 75mm and these parts are 90mm. This leaves 15mm to saw away with a hand saw, and then clean up with a block plane. This clean up is important as it is also jointing for the parts to fit together gap-free ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vH8V3jGr/Arm16.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/GmVT3mGK/Arm17.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/CxzfVqBd/Arm18.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The arm parts are ready to fit together ...

https://i.postimg.cc/FRQfcCPJ/Arm19.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/nzYX1K5S/Arm20.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And all done for the day ...

https://i.postimg.cc/hvDfZzRD/Arm21.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jeff Wittrock

03-24-2024, 10:53 AM

Derek,

It's a real joy to see the progress on your chairs.

A question for all is how you might connect/join the arms with the legs? Note that the back will be joined angled to the sides, as per the photo.
Derek

When I had to make a similar angled back to arm joint, I ended up using several 1/8" x 2" splines. I was afraid to even attempt the tapered finger joints as you did on your Wegner chair reproduction.
I wonder if splines between the arm to leg joint with similar wood as you used for the tenon wedges would work well.

Look forward to seeing more.

Regards,
Jeff

Mark Gibney

03-24-2024, 12:22 PM

Derek, you wrapped blue tape around the tops of the legs to guide the cut - how did you know the line to mark?
Seems like this would be very difficult to get right. The template use used helped but there was still a lot to get on the money.

Derek Cohen

03-24-2024, 12:39 PM

Mark, first I ran lines on each side of the seat support (legs) using a template - which was placed on both sides of the seat supports ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7Z6SYRcH/Arm6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I did have to estimate the ends where it was not possible to mark.

Sawing was fine for about 6/8 of the seat supports. On two I went a little off course, but then used a rasp to level it - again using the template to determine where to do this ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kGst7NvR/Arm10.jpg

Does that answer your question?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Mark Gibney

03-24-2024, 1:03 PM

Yes, though I'm glad I'm not doing it.

Derek Cohen

03-30-2024, 11:10 AM

Arms - part 1

The key piece is the top rail, and the key element here is the rear curve. Here it is smoothed on the belt sander. It will be a reference side for marking curves ...

https://i.postimg.cc/hvjpwsBG/Arm22.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The angles I have had to guestimate have been the tilt, front and rear, of the top rail. This is what I came up with ...

https://i.postimg.cc/cC954jmY/Arm23.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The plan is to join the arms using dowels. The Rule of Thirds applies. 3 x 3/8" dowels (3/8" = 9.5mm, which is close to the 10mm tenons used previously). Why dowels? Because they are easier to position accurately without a reference edge.

Since a large amount of waste will be removed from the top rail and arms, through shaping, the dowels need to be positioned where they will not be cut into. The three marks on the ends of the top rail are the position for the dowels. The wooden block was a quick guide to drill vertical as it needed to be done freehand ..

https://i.postimg.cc/wx0rVypv/Arm24.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The only complication was that I had 6mm dowel centre points. It would have been easier if they were 3/8". Nevertheless ...

https://i.postimg.cc/zXvcPzzk/Arm25.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/Bn1w4m1L/Arm26.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Drilled for 3/8" dowels in Jarrah (I have a bucket of them), each close to 50mm (2") in length.

https://i.postimg.cc/MKLrCCXJ/Arm27.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/8CRKrs4T/Arm28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Everything is still a rectangle at this stage ...

https://i.postimg.cc/DzkpZ1qC/Arm29.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The inside face of the top rail is shaped ...

https://i.postimg.cc/V64KDT2T/Arm31.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It is at this point that I have a re-think about the curve of the rear - it is not a fair curve and enough curve when compared with the photos of the DC 09 chair. The re-drawn curve on the left looks correct to me now, and this is what we will go with ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNQKKQs9/Arm32.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/t4k8gpd1/Arm33.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The parts are joined up as a loose fit (using undersized dowels)...

https://i.postimg.cc/zG895VhZ/Arm34.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The arm/rail combination is now placed on the arm supports and adjusted to the front and rear to determine the rear overhang and position for the front joint ..

https://i.postimg.cc/R00y6yGg/Arm35.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Derek Cohen

03-30-2024, 11:10 AM

The template I made up earlier is used to trace out the side elevations. The shaping here is approximate. The main goal is to establish the length of the arms and from arm support joint ...

https://i.postimg.cc/B6rVz63z/Arm36.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

A little detail of interest: the height cut is slightly more than the front joint triangle would suggest as the final shaping requires a little extra meat to end in a curve ...

https://i.postimg.cc/pThSkjw8/Arm37.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/hG3w9s5c/Arm37b.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This is now sawn to shape, except for the underside of the arm, as the mortise/tenon area needs to be determined separately for each arm ...

https://i.postimg.cc/90ynHhFQ/Arm38.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Tomorrow will begin the final shaping and, hopefully, glue up of the arms.

https://i.postimg.cc/RCt8HcQx/Arm39.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tony Shea

03-30-2024, 11:23 AM

Holy sh** Derek! This is looking so good! What a complicated yet interesting build. You're getting so close to finish line yet still so much to work on and think about. Great build thread and look forward to seeing it through.

Jim Koepke

03-30-2024, 2:04 PM

Amazing

jtk

Derek Cohen

03-31-2024, 10:11 AM

A little more as it is getting closer.

The first step is to align all the arms and mortices ...

https://i.postimg.cc/y6SCdTPw/Arm40.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There was a lot of scribing, fitting, scribing and more fitting.

Finally the shaping of the underside of the arms was possible as it was now possible to determine the general position of the mortises.

https://i.postimg.cc/Fs55JJC1/Arm41.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The waste was removed with a bandsaw and coping saw ..

https://i.postimg.cc/YCM5dBHH/Arm42.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Now the specific position for the mortices was fixed with dowel pointers ...

https://i.postimg.cc/R00jz1hp/Arm43.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Drilled and dowelled ..

https://i.postimg.cc/7Z9pctHT/Arm44.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And the arms fitted to check that all will fit at the end ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNxX0N4g/Arm45.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Shaping to come.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Ritter

03-31-2024, 10:33 AM

What an amazing project Derek. How wonderful you are sharing all that goes into it, the good the bad and the restarts. My hat is off to you.
Jim

Derek Cohen

03-31-2024, 11:36 AM

Many thanks Jim. It has certainly been a voyage of discovery.

And thanks for coming along with me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Ritter

03-31-2024, 12:35 PM

Always a pleasure Derek, I’ve never been disappointed.
Jim

Derek Cohen

04-01-2024, 10:08 AM

The Arms (part 2)

This is a last post before I return from three weeks being dragged over New Zealand mountains by my wife and her family. I used the Easter Weekend to get as much done as possible, but I needed a few more days. So there is more to come, later.

It is helpful to remember what the aim is - as close a copy of the DC 09 chair as possible. All guidance from photos ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5J4qVdR/Chair2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

We left off here ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNxX0N4g/Arm45.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The three parts that make up the arms and top rail ..

https://i.postimg.cc/mZYYdCCs/Arm2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The top rails were shaped ...

https://i.postimg.cc/zG895VhZ/Arm34.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And shaping started on the arms ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNxX0N4g/Arm45.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Today the arms were begun.

I find it easier to do one part as far as I can take it, then stop and repeat this with another part. When all four arms have progressed the same distance, I start with the first arm again and take it to the next stage. Then the other three to match. And so on.

Each stage completed must be checked, and this is done by putting the parts together, to check that they balance. The two sides must remain a mirror image, and the two chairs must be identical. There are no templates to mark the lines to work towards, only the rough layout lines that appear fair to the eye.

The arms are shaped with rasps and spokeshaves ... mainly coarse rasps - the Shinto and a 10 grain Auriou - followed with round- and flat bottom spokeshaves. Starting with the inside faces ...

https://i.postimg.cc/qv2Hxfvs/Arm46.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Inside faces mostly done ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Kv6yTcxc/Arm47.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Inside faces almost done, except for the undersides ...

https://i.postimg.cc/GpQ06kY9/Arm48.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Further along - top inside and outside faces mostly done ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rpcXhhDv/Arm49.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And that's it for now. More later. Thanks for keeping me company through this build.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ben Ellenberger

04-01-2024, 3:14 PM

Looking good! Also, I got a good laugh about the “do not saw” note on the parts. I imagine fitting a complicated build like this around life and professional work requires having a good system in place to keep track of order of operations and where you are in the process.

Mark Gibney

04-06-2024, 10:58 AM

I came across these chairs online, which look to me like they might be the starting point for the people who make the chair you are making a copy off.
Posting here to add to this great thread.

518075 518076 518077

Jim Koepke

04-06-2024, 2:59 PM

Great stuff, enjoy your mountain trek in New Zealand.

jtk

Derek Cohen

04-06-2024, 3:27 PM

Mark Gibney

04-06-2024, 5:06 PM

Here's the link
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/fuo/d/los-angeles-axel-mid-century-chair/7728917313.html

Ron Selzer

04-06-2024, 5:12 PM

Derek Cohen

04-06-2024, 5:25 PM

Thanks Mark

I have seen chairs like these before. They are copies of the DC 09 design, but with many shortcuts. These include a separate seat attached to rails, and the rails attached to the legs with blind (not through-) mortices.

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/3916aced-1351-433c-b6ae-e0376bf83c5a
The legs are rectangle, rather than oval.

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/67a525ab-98dd-4439-8fa6-e6d5e68e9a4b
And the shaping and attachment of the arms and back are simplified.

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/7c535360-b69a-4a09-9403-3dbfeca33943
I suspect that this was either DIY or made cheaply for production at a low price point. This is not to knock the chairs, because they highlight (by exclusion) the areas that are difficult or demanding (ie time consuming) to build.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

04-06-2024, 5:28 PM

Derek
Has been very interesting following along with this chair build. I have no desire to build one, however I have seen some things done that interest me and I hope to try sometime after I get to get back in the shop
Thanks
Ron

Thank Ron. Feel free to mention what catches your eye. This thread is intended for discussion as much as demonstration (including how not to do things!)

Regards from Perth ... still in Auckland, about to travel South.

Derek

Derek Cohen

04-06-2024, 5:43 PM

One point I have not drawn attention to, but was important for me, is the grain direction throughout this build.

If you look at the arms and legs, the grain has all been oriented so that the blanks are quarter sawn. For example, the arms will show the long side grain when looking at them fron the side, as will the legs. The figured sides face the top, are carved away, and therefore the figure is minimised. The aim is to present a clear, uncluttered grain, and this should emphasise the shape/silhouette. This was not possible with the seat, and the figure was positioned as best as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Koepke

04-08-2024, 3:22 PM

still in Auckland, about to travel South.

Many years ago a columnist for one of the San Francisco newspapers wrote of the plight of a couple trying to get information at the San Francisco International Airport about a flight to Auckland. The airport is across SF Bay from Oakland, California. With their accents the person at the airport couldn't understand why they didn't want to take a taxi or public transit.

jtk

Derek Cohen

05-27-2024, 11:32 AM

Back on the job after 3 weeks hiking mountain trails in the South Islands of New Zealand, then returning home with Bronchitis (although I was wearing a mask on the plane, passengers preferred to sit with the crying babies than listen to me cough and wheeze!). A few more weeks to recover. First day in the workshop this weekend.

First task was to glue the arms sections together. You will recall that they are reinforced with dowels.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4k8gpd1/Arm33.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

In a similar build, where the sections needed to be clamped together, it was possible to leave "ears" as the blanks were wider/thicker. I could not do that here, and so decided to epoxy these ears on ...

https://i.postimg.cc/43CYC1f2/Arm50.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Well, it wasn't particularly successful, even allowing for 24 hours cure time. The ears broke off.

All I could do was clamp the ear on, and pray this would hold.

https://i.postimg.cc/vBbDTH6W/Arm51.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Later I realised that the problem was that the dowels I used were too tight, and the force needed to drive them home was unexpected. Lesson learned for all - if using epoxy, which is gap filling, the dowels has be a slip fit rather than a force fit. Of course, it would have been easier if I had known this beforehand!

https://i.postimg.cc/MGyvzjX6/Arm52.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Once all was together, now in one piece (or two pieces if you count two chairs), the rasping and spokeshaving began ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bJgrtcQ4/Arm53.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/sx2XP6mx/Arm54.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The aim now was to get the arms closer. This is all slow work, a bit here and a bit there, return to check the symmetry and shaping, and a bit more off. Work stopped to redrill the dowel holes that hold the arms to the legs. There had been a little movement while I was away, or I have measured inaccurately the at the start. It is important that the arms-legs join with as little stress to the joint as possible.

https://i.postimg.cc/x8Fd6vpR/Arm55.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

A couple of progress shots of shaping thus far - lots still to come, but its getting to look like the original chair now.

https://i.postimg.cc/pXprpSy1/Arm57.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/8kyskGk6/Arm56.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Ritter

05-27-2024, 12:59 PM

You got there in the end Derek, the lessons you learn the hard way are the ones you don’t forget.
Hope you feel better soon.
Jim

Jim Koepke

05-27-2024, 2:55 PM

Later I realised that the problem was that the dowels I used were too tight, and the force needed to drive them home was unexpected. Lesson learned for all - if using epoxy, which is gap filling, the dowels has be a slip fit rather than a force fit. Of course, it would have been easier if I had known this beforehand!

I'm sure this will be remembered in your future endeavors. For others, your experience will hopefully help them avoid the difficulties of making such joinery.

Looking good.

jtk

Derek Cohen

06-02-2024, 10:00 AM

I have found that the shaping of the chair arms and back to be a complicated process, with a step forward, then sideways, and then another step forwards. It is not plain sailing. There are many small corrections to make as I proceed, and I dare not attempt to leave these until a later date. I thought that some here will find the corrections ... repairs ... interesting, and hopefully useful if you find yourself in the same situation.

In the following photo, where the inside back is being shaped, you can see two joins where the arms and back connect ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7YWB523v/SS2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Outside example ..

https://i.postimg.cc/L6XC4TZB/SS1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

These joins are clean and tight. In all there were 8 such joins, 2 chairs with each 2 inside and 2 outside joins. Of these 8 joins, 7 were perfect. One was a disaster!

What happened was, in clamping the two parts, there was movement and an outside section moved slightly. This left a gap. To make it worse - as bad as it could get - the corner of one piece was crushed by a clamp, and cracked! I pushed it back into position, secured it, but it must have moved a little. Try not to cry ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XvMQ861Q/SS4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Well, you just have to repair it. And not with filler or a wedge.

I decided to peen the wood and move it into the gap. I have used this technique for dovetails (https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PeeningDovetailsinWood.html), which is edge grain, but never for end grain. In fact, I have not seen anyone do this before.

Using a couple of different size drift punches, I began tapping the wood into the gap ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mg1mCgjP/SS5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It looks like hell, but it did the job ...

https://i.postimg.cc/k5xwYYk9/SS6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I'll save the outcome for the end of the build. [wink]

In the following photo you can see areas marked in pencil. These are where waste is to be removed ...

https://i.postimg.cc/YSgyKCL5/S8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

A little is removed, and then the arms are returned to the base, where more is marked for removal ...

https://i.postimg.cc/HkFPhyn0/S7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The shaping of the arms is completely by eye. There are no templates to guide the work done. The photos are my reference: "does it look right ... no ... take more off there ....".

I finally get to a point where I need to check whether the curve at the rear is fair. It needs to be symmetrical and fair, and the same for both chairs. Now I trace the curve of one half of the rear centre section ...

https://i.postimg.cc/76nshtVX/S12.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Flipping the template, this is taken to the other side of the back ..

It is just a smidgeon off ...

https://i.postimg.cc/qqBm3cDr/S13.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And the template is used on the other chair, and this proves to be identical o chair #1 ... just a smidgeon off the left side to spokeshave away ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rshfCd7r/S14.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I am amazed that the shaping has remained within my tolerances all this time!

Lastly, I have been keeping an eye on the leg-arm joins. A couple were not meeting flush, and this needed to be corrected. For example, here you can see the gap. The blue tape marks where it keeps to be corrected ...

https://i.postimg.cc/t4sMk5qC/S9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The top is covered in pencil to help see where the rasp is working, and the section that must not be touched ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dtHfGXKx/S10.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The result ...

https://i.postimg.cc/rmkZ82SK/S11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The end of the day. A lot of work has been done over a period of 1 1/2 days in the workshop. This may go unnoticed by all but you and I ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2jT9fJ3S/S15.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Lots more to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Koepke

06-02-2024, 2:31 PM

That is a lot of work.

Thanks for sharing the build.

jtk

stephen thomas

06-02-2024, 3:07 PM

They are gorgeous!
Appreciate all the effort you took to document and post the progression of steps, too.
smt

PS, still getting used to navigating sawmillcreek and discovered there was a lot more content and responses here.
I kind of agree with William Fretwell but of course wish you all best luck with your solution. Your analysis is certainly sound from the perspective you wanted to address.

The chuteboard plane is interesting, too - for some reason it does not look "Stanley"? Who made it and do you enjoy using it?

Derek Cohen

06-03-2024, 6:12 AM

...
The chuteboard plane is interesting, too - for some reason it does not look "Stanley"? Who made it and do you enjoy using it?

Stephen, are you referring to this photo?

https://i.postimg.cc/7ZZHsXwj/L3.jpg

If so, it is a LN #51 on a Stanley #52 chute board (I also have the original Stanley #51 to go with it).

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYsDSmpj/LN51-Shooting-Plane-html-6ed0a945.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/X7Z1NPgW/LN51-Shooting-Plane-html-m73102486.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Assaf Oppenheimer

06-07-2024, 10:32 AM

Hi Derek, I I'm looking forward to following this build! I've been pondering (daydreaming) and a similar design. Slightly bigger backrest and a saddled seat. One thing I can't quite figure out is how to make such a design stackable..
Maybe in a few years...
I have a question about the runout comment. I I'm not sure why it would be hard to control if you rive the wood?

Derek Cohen

06-07-2024, 11:04 AM

Assaf, thanks.

Riving is an interesting idea. I am not confident that it is practical to do for a wide seat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek Cohen

06-11-2024, 11:10 AM

This is, hopefully, the penultimate post on these chairs. I was unsure whether to post this one since the changes and progress sequence must appear so small to all, yet I am aware of how much work goes into shaving, shaving, shaving ... And there is still more to do, as well as more shaping to slim the arms further, and then sanding to a finished surface before adding shellac (for tone) and hard wax oil for protection. We are closing in. https://sawmillcreek.org/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7

The toughest task in working on the arms is to hold them. I choose to work at a MFT bench as it has options for clamping. Here are some ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L5LDZLxK/SSS1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The end vise gets used in a number of ways ...

https://i.postimg.cc/KvhJhpYZ/SSS2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/qB3jYH4b/SSS3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Hold downs secure the arms to work on the mortises ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J43Kr3yj/SSS4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The arm-leg connection was worked on earlier and mated closely, but not enough. Final fitting is made by holding the two together and sawing though the join with a thin saw blade ...

https://i.postimg.cc/dVq6L7dp/SSS5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The current state of play ...

https://i.postimg.cc/PqJMQBSM/SSS6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/52n3vxS0/SSS7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek