All table saws to be SawStops?

[Jim Dwight]

I just say a youtube by a channel I think is called "731 Woodworks". He reports on some meetings by the consumer products safety commission (I might have that name wrong) where they are talking about mandating technology which will stop the blade before it penetrates our body more than 3.5mm. I think he said the meeting was in October of 2023. That doesn't dictate sawstops but we saw with the Bosch saw that if anybody tried to offer technology that is different but achieves the same result SawStop will sue and the expense of protecting yourself was too much for Bosch - which is not a really small company. So the only practical way to meet the requirement would seem to be to license SawStop technology. They may give a relatively long implementation time that might allow some of SawStop's patents to expire but in a response to the commission Steve Gass said he is trying to extend them.

The one bright light I saw in the video was input from a patent lawyer talking about putting together a package "deal" for use of all necessary patents. Apparently that sort of thing is common in telecomunications areas. If the commission put that together to go with implementation it might also just raise the price of table saws but the price of the "deal" plus the cost of implementation.

If you are thinking you want a non-sawstop tablesaw it might be necessary to move forward before too long (in the next few years).

[Richard Coers]

Here we go, another Sawstop post. GET YOUR POPCORN!

[jack duren]

Talking isn’t anything, but a fact is…


Let us know when it becomes a law…

[Nick Crivello]

Granted, the technology is different but it hasn't stopped Felder or Altendorf with their offerings.

[Andrew Hughes]

Self driving cars and sawstop have a lot in common.
People should always have a choice

[Christopher Wellington]

Self driving cars and sawstop have a lot in common.
People should always have a choice

Should the insurance pool have to bear the cost of surgery, physical therapy, etc. when an individual declines the safety feature and then suffers a preventable injury? Should any and every safety feature be mandated regardless of how small the benefit?

Issues like this that seem, on the surface, to be simple matters of personal choice are rarely so simple.

[Andrew Hughes]

Yes if someone pays for insurance then they should get what is agreed.
Life is vexing enough. I don’t entertain hypothetical words.

[Jim Dwight]

I don't remember if it was Feldor or Altendorf but one of them said their technology currently costs $7000 to implement and they don't see any way it can drop to less than $1,000. Neither was believed to be usable for what I would consider a normal U. S. table saw because of difficulty or cost to implement. Which seems to make SawStop technology the only choice.

In case anybody wonders I have a PCS and I like it but I am definitely not a fan of Steve Gass. I also believe SawStop is disengenous when they claim that there has never been a serious injury on one of their saws. I got a broken bone and several stitches from a dado stack despite their technology. The injury was definitely completely my fault, the saw did not cause it, but they know of my injury and I suspect there have been worse. To SawStop broken bones and multiple stitches does not constitute a "serious injury". I think I would definitely have been injured worse and the technology helps but I don't think it helps to suggest all you will need is a band aid if something goes wrong and you are using their saw. I'm also not completely sure that SawStop can say they have always met the proposed standard. My injury would have been close to the proposed limit and may have exceeded it. The scar on my finger is about 1/4 inch long.

[Jim Becker]

I'd be surprised that Gass would even be involved at this point given that Sawstop and presumably the IP, was sold to the parent company of Festool, Tanos and a few other companies a few years ago...

[jack duren]

If the technology helps, it’s better than nothing..There was no technology when I got my fingers in the dado on the saw in 1983. Could it have been worse than loosing the tips to the first knuckle?

[jack duren]

Gass, Gass, Gass…. Let’s get past Gass and talk about the technoloy. That’s what really on the table at this point..

I got kicked off Woodnet 10 years ago getting into a heated argument with members and Steve Gass while he was trying to get this patented..

Still got players in the game complaining..

[Justin Rapp]

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws

[mike stenson]

Last time I looked Sawstop effectively loses patent protections in May 2026. Even though they started to expire in 21.

Safety devices are, inherently, a good thing if they do not cause operations to become so complicated that they are disabled or removed.

Maybe y'all want to pay good money for my old unisaw without any safety devices, I suspect if I were to sell it today it'd be worth maybe $500.

[Larry Frank]

Yes, the Consumer Product Safety Commission is considering such a rule and here is what they published last year. While I have a Sawstop and believe in the technology, I do not think this is appropriate. It would price tablesaws out of the reach of many people.

SUMMARY:

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (Commission or CPSC) has determined preliminarily that there may be an unreasonable risk of blade-contact injuries associated with table saws. To address this hazard, the Commission proposes a rule under the Consumer Product Safety Act (CPSA) that would establish a performance standard that requires table saws to limit the depth of cut to no more than 3.5 millimeters when a test probe, acting as surrogate for a human finger or other body part, approaches the spinning blade at a rate of 1 meter per second (m/s). The Commission is providing an opportunity for interested parties to present comments on this supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking (SNPR).

[Mark Wedel]

I wonder if an issue at some point will be that any business, school, or non owner/operator might all move to blade stop technology for insurance and lawsuit reasons.

I could imagine a worker in a cabinet shop losing a finger to a non sawstop saw, and aside from perhaps a high medical bill, also sues the owner (and by association, his insurance company) on the basis that the shop is negligent having such a dangerous tool when safer ones are available. That then leads the insurance companies to refuse to insure shops that don't have blade stop technology (or charge considerably more), which then might mean shops move to that technology, which might not be a bad thing.

But the unfortunate result of this might be those shops selling off their old saws to hobbyist, which might only use the saw a few hours/week, might also not be as well trained as that person working in the shop, so it just moves the risk.

At this stage, it is just a proposal - lots of time governments propose various things that do not go anywhere.

[mike stenson]

Last person I knew that had an accident in a commercial shop without sawstops was the last one. Owner replaced the saws in the shop, it was cheaper than the insurance claims.

[Steve Demuth]

Last time I looked Sawstop effectively loses patent protections in May 2026. Even though they started to expire in 21.

Safety devices are, inherently, a good thing if they do not cause operations to become so complicated that they are disabled or removed.

Maybe y'all want to pay good money for my old unisaw without any safety devices, I suspect if I were to sell it today it'd be worth maybe $500.

Sawstop alleged that Bosch violated 6 of their patents. Of those 6, two allegations were withdrawn by Sawstop before adjudication, 2 were judged not to be violated by the Bosch system, and 2 were judged to be violated. The last two, however have since expired. The two that were ruled not to be violated by Bosch's system expire in 2024 and 2026, but obviously aren't a firm impediment to building an effective blade stopping system.

If you take all that, and the fact that it will take months to a year or more to write and publish a rule, and that the rule would then set a future date after which saws must comply, I think the patent story is largely over on this one. Manufacturer's can start designing systems today with reasonable confidence that if they need to have them in the market in the US in the future, they won't be impeded by Festools patents.

[Rob Sack]

Before I run out of popcorn, let me say this. I had a serious accident on my previous table saw, which I still own and use on occasion. This prompted me to buy a Sawstop. I have been using my ICS professionally for over 14 years. Taking the safety aspects of the saw out of the equation, what saw on the market is substantially better in performance as well as customer service in the same price range. When I bought my Sawstop, the only saws in a similar price range were Asian imports of various badging (yeah, I know Sawstop is manufactured in Taiwan), Delta (where are they now and try to get parts now), and Powermatic (also imported). There may be more, but I think I've made my point. Any yet, in addition, Sawstop offers their safety technology.

We are always going to have those individuals who don't feel they should be subjected to government regulations regarding safety. It's exhausting hearing the same droning "don't step on my freedom" crap. As far as I am concerned, if you don't want to participate in using a safer saw, go for it. But in doing so, the least you can do is sign and notarize a document that says in the event of an accident, you take full responsibility for any and all damages and medical care. I am no fan of insurance companies and feel that my rates shouldn't increase to cover the cost of treating an avoidable accident because the injured party felt that using a safer tool compromised their freedom.

[mike stenson]

...people love the used market.

[Mark Hennebury]

Living is Dangerous,
the only way to be safe is to die, dead people wont get injured, all the rest of us are at risk, of sickness, injury and death. you want to ban all things that could possible injure someone, and dictate that people can only do things that are Safe. I would like that list. Everything you do has risk, from drinking a glass of water, breathing, swimming, taking a walk, jogging, riding a bike driving a car, don't even mentions sports or hobbies, or doughnuts or coffee, or god forbid, beer!

Get my point?



Should the insurance pool have to bear the cost of surgery, physical therapy, etc. when an individual declines the safety feature and then suffers a preventable injury? Should any and every safety feature be mandated regardless of how small the benefit?

Issues like this that seem, on the surface, to be simple matters of personal choice are rarely so simple.

[Michael Schuch]

On a purely selfish note think of the huge number of high end table saws and sliding table saws that would be available to hobbyists if OSHA required businesses to acquire blade stopping technology!

Air bags and shoulder belts have been required for decades... neither my 67 F100 or my 76 Scout have them. My 45 Ford Jeep didn't even have a seat belt when I bought it. I did put a seat belt into it though.

[Michael Schuch]

Before I run out of popcorn, let me say this. I had a serious accident on my previous table saw, which I still own and use on occasion. This prompted me to buy a Sawstop. I have been using my ICS professionally for over 14 years. Taking the safety aspects of the saw out of the equation, what saw on the market is substantially better in performance as well as customer service in the same price range. When I bought my Sawstop, the only saws in a similar price range were Asian imports of various badging (yeah, I know Sawstop is manufactured in Taiwan), Delta (where are they now and try to get parts now), and Powermatic (also imported). There may be more, but I think I've made my point. Any yet, in addition, Sawstop offers their safety technology.

We are always going to have those individuals who don't feel they should be subjected to government regulations regarding safety. It's exhausting hearing the same droning "don't step on my freedom" crap. As far as I am concerned, if you don't want to participate in using a safer saw, go for it. But in doing so, the least you can do is sign and notarize a document that says in the event of an accident, you take full responsibility for any and all damages and medical care. I am no fan of insurance companies and feel that my rates shouldn't increase to cover the cost of treating an avoidable accident because the injured party felt that using a safer tool compromised their freedom.

My friend that works in the local ER says that they get hundreds of broken bones and mangled joints a year from the local ski slopes each of which will incur tens of thousands of dollars in treatment. Should we shut down the ski slope, require skiers to pay a higher premium or require them to sign a waiver that any injuries incurred while skiing should will not be covered by insurance?

I don't now how the rest of the world works but I know fellow employees that smoke don't pay higher premiums than I do because of their hazardous life choices.

Compared to smoking and skiing the cost of treating severed appendages has got to be miniscule on a nation wide basis. A couple of stiches and send them home.

[Patrick Varley]

Here's another recap of this, that also contains some additional interesting details.

https://toolguyd.com/sawstop-table-saw-regulations-update-012024/

Most interestingly, SawStop has already licensed their tech to others, they would consider using favorable terms for licensing if it did become "mandatory", and they actually came to an agreement with Bosch in 2018 that would have allowed Bosch to sell the Reaxxx saw in the US.

[Michael Schuch]

Do modern cabinet shops still use table saws? I mean cabinet shops that are bigger than a one man shop?

The last custom cabinet shop that I toured didn't have any table saws that I could see. Everything was cut on a computer controlled bridge saw and this was 20 years ago. Hands couldn't get anywhere close to a spinning blade. The owner told me the choice is to either automate everything possible or go out of business. This was the company: https://lanzcabinets.com/facilities/factories/ When I worked on their computer systems 20 years ago they had one factory in Eugene OR, it appears they own 5 factories up and down the west coast now.

I am asking because I really don't know how many cabinet shops are out there that do things the old fashioned way of pushing sheets through a spinning blade manually?

[Patty Hann]

I wonder if an issue at some point will be that any business, school, or non owner/operator might all move to blade stop technology for insurance and lawsuit reasons.

I take woodworking classes 2 nights a week, 4 hours per class. The classes are offered through the local Comm. college, but are held in high school wood shops.
My classes are in 2 different school districts.
The Tues class is in a shop that uses only SS Table Saws, 4 of them. The Wed Class is in a shop that has one SS and one huge industrial size Powermatic TS.
The Tues classroom did have some non-SS Saws until a [day class] kid hurt himself. The injury wasn't too serious (I don't know the details), but the kid also admitted that he was at fault, doing something he shouldn't have been doing.
So right after the "investigation" that particular School District mandated that all Tables Saws had to be Saw Stops.
The other class in the other school district? .....No changes (so far).

[Michael Burnside]

I own a SawStop because, quite frankly, even as a serious hobbyist it wasn’t worth the risk to my livelihood. I’m a programmer and networking hardware designer that needs all fingers.

On that topic, my company owns and licenses many patents in order to have a high degree of reliability and interoperability across a number of standards. It may seem weird to think your dewalt could have a Bosch or sawstop cartridge, but this is common place in other industries, it just hasn’t made its way to woodworking tools. These things can be good for the consumer; standardized parts, safety metrics, interoperability (e.g. one battery standard) but at least in the short term unfortunately costs will go up. Sometimes prices stabilize or even go down relative to other markets, but that takes time and is dependent upon longer term metrics.

[Alex Zeller]

From what I understand if something becomes mandatory then the patent owning company is restricted on how much they can get in licensing fees. With them expiring it probably doesn't matter. My guess is the timing of this is because the patents are expiring so every company selling a TS will include it without having to deal with patents. The real question is will our inept government decide that all saws with round blades and a flat table be required to have this. If so then sliding saws will need it as well. Possibly including the scoring blade.

[Darrin Johnson]

As a Radiologist I'd like to never see another Xray of someone missing fingers from a table saw accident. We all grind our teeth over government mandates but they can have a positive impact on our lives sometimes.

[Rick Potter]

I believe I can safely predict what will happen if the proposed law goes into effect.

After the initial run on existing stock is finished, there will be a new product available...accessory saw tables made to fit SkilSaws and other circ saws.

That will give the bureaucrats something to spend another decade gathering facts on.

[Patty Hann]

From what I understand if something becomes mandatory then the patent owning company is restricted on how much they can get in licensing fees. With them expiring it probably doesn't matter. My guess is the timing of this is because the patents are expiring so every company selling a TS will include it without having to deal with patents. The real question is will our inept government decide that all saws with round blades and a flat table be required to have this. If so then sliding saws will need it as well. Possibly including the scoring blade.
I thought about that.... it being a requirement on sliders.
Will be interesting watching this play out (if it should become a legislated matter)

[Kevin Jenness]

Do modern cabinet shops still use table saws? I mean cabinet shops that are bigger than a one man shop?


Of course they do. It's the rare cnc shop that doesn't have a variety saw in a corner for odd jobs. I can't think of a commercial shop around here that doesn't have a table saw of some kind. I once toured a production shop with nothing more than a beam saw, point-to-point cnc, construction drill, edgebander and case clamp but all they did was commercial casework like point-of-sale stations. The custom division of that company next door had a cnc, several sliding tablesaws and a full set of classical machinery including variety saws as well as a straight line ripsaw, moulder, etc.

[Alan Lightstone]

I own a SawStop, and I'm not going to get into a safety/personal choice argument here.

I'm just a little confused by the proposed regulation. A saw that will cause a maximum of a 3.5mm cut when fed at 1m/sec??? Isn't 1m/sec an incredibly fast speed to feed wood into a table saw?

I also guessing that 3.5mm is so that it will only penetrate skin, not deeper, but I have no clue what the average thickness of skin on a hand is. (OK, just googled it - 1.5mm on the palm, <1mm on fingers, so why that number? Still can do some real damage, I'd imagine, at 3.5mm. Perhaps not completely amputate a finger, but still...) Some WAG thrown out by a bureaucrat?

OK, I just read the Federal Register report (I need to get a life). The UL has identified a 4 mm cut from the surface of the skin as the quantitative threshold separating simple and complex lacerations in a human finger.

"The Commission recognizes there may be some scenarios, such as kickback, which can cause the operator's hand to be pulled into the blade at a high rate of speed or lead the operator to reach as fast as possible for a falling workpiece. In these and other scenarios, the speed of the operator's hand or finger may exceed 1 m/s when it contacts the saw blade. At approach speeds greater than 1 m/s, AIM system performance may not be sufficient to prevent injuries that require extensive medical attention. The use of AIM technology may, however, limit injuries where an incident otherwise would have resulted in an amputation or involved injury to several digits or a wider area, to permit instead microsurgical repair of nerves, blood vessels, and tendons. Thus, the Commission concludes that nearly all operator blade-contact injuries from table saws would be eliminated or mitigated by the proposed performance requirement."

There are actually real thoughtful arguments, debate, comments from consumers/companies and conclusions in that report. It's an interesting read, again if you need to get a life. So rare for our government these days. They are proposing 36 month delay instead of the usual 180 day maximum for implementation to allow other manufacturers to design and implement AIM systems.

So there's that...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Alan, I doubt it’s a “WAG thrown out by some bureaucrat”, those are generally engineering decisions.

Yes, 1 m/s is fast, which is why it was chosen along with 3.5mm.

At normal hand fed speeds, which I find is around .1 m/s the injury depth would be much smaller.

The reaction time of the blade safety mechanism is fixed, the faster you feed, the deeper the cut will be, hence a speed of approach and an injury depth have to be specified to correctly compare systems and performance.

1 m/s looks more like slipping or kickback type scenarios to me, the most difficult to guard against.

Regards, Rod

P.S. Please disregard my post Allan, you edited yours while I was typing��

[Justin Rapp]

I own a SawStop, and I'm not going to get into a safety/personal choice argument here.

I'm just a little confused by the proposed regulation. A saw that will cause a maximum of a 3.5mm cut when fed at 1m/sec??? Isn't 1m/sec an incredibly fast speed to feed wood into a table saw?

I also guessing that 3.5mm is so that it will only penetrate skin, not deeper, but I have no clue what the average thickness of skin on a hand is. (OK, just googled it - 1.5mm on the palm, <1mm on fingers, so why that number? Still can do some real damage, I'd imagine, at 3.5mm. Perhaps not completely amputate a finger, but still...) Some WAG thrown out by a bureaucrat?

I was thinking the same exact thing - 3.5mm is pretty deep and while I didn't look up the thickness of skin (thank you for that), I was thinking on a finger it would already be cutting into tendons and ligaments. So, while 3.5mm is far better than a more series injury, it could still do some bad damage.

I am on my 3rd table saw and it's a Sawstop. I was thinking about it for far to many years to replace my old JET contractor saw with a PCS, not only for the blade stop tech, but also to have a saw with a riving knife. My final trigger to upgrade from the JET was kickback that luckily was just a little broke skin and a massive bruise on my stomach where it made impact. While I know I could have gone with any new saw with a riving knife, as long as I was upgrading, I was going for the additional safety feature of the brake.

If it comes to a point where all saws will be required to have blade stop that will result in a cut 3.5mm deep, if I was in the market for a saw at that point and had a choice of barely a scrape or a 3.5mm gash, I am going for the tool that has the best technology at the time, be it Sawstop or one of the other well known brands.

BTW - when it comes to insurance and safety, many schools insurance companies required any workshop with a tablesaw to be replaced with a Sawstop. I also heard the same about woodworking clubs workshop insurance requiring the same.

[James Jayko]

Should the insurance pool have to bear the cost of surgery, physical therapy, etc. when an individual declines the safety feature and then suffers a preventable injury? Should any and every safety feature be mandated regardless of how small the benefit?

Issues like this that seem, on the surface, to be simple matters of personal choice are rarely so simple.

No. Responsible people who pay for insurance shouldn't be required to subsidize stubborn / ignorant people who refuse to accept that keeping all your digits is important, and that mistakes happen. They NEVER happen to me, until they do. Keep your Unisaw from 1971, but don't expect the insurance pool to reimburse you for being stubborn. Pay that $20k to reattach your digit out of pocket. Or just go with 9, not my problem, and saves your 'personal choice.' All the 'personal responsibility' rhetoric came out of the tobacco industry in the 1950s...that doesn't seem to be the side I'd rather be on.

For the record, I'm a registered libertarian, but I also pay $Texas for insurance, and would rather pay 0.5 * $Texas.

[James Jayko]

Living is Dangerous,
the only way to be safe is to die, dead people wont get injured, all the rest of us are at risk, of sickness, injury and death. you want to ban all things that could possible injure someone, and dictate that people can only do things that are Safe. I would like that list. Everything you do has risk, from drinking a glass of water, breathing, swimming, taking a walk, jogging, riding a bike driving a car, don't even mentions sports or hobbies, or doughnuts or coffee, or god forbid, beer!

Get my point?

Not all risks NEED to be taken or provide any benefit to the person who takes them. Like, say, driving without a seatbelt.

[mike stenson]

Not all risks NEED to be taken or provide any benefit to the person who takes them. Like, say, driving without a seatbelt.

I ride a mountain bike downhill. This is inherently dangerous. Yet, I still wear a helmet, and appropriate pads (why do injuries seem to just hurt more in your 50s anyway?). When I was a younger man, I climbed.. and used a harness and a rope. I agree, it's all about risk mitigation. I don't understand the issue.. as long as USING the safety devices aren't onerous.

[Jim Becker]

... they won't be impeded by Festools patents.
Festool does not own the patents. Their parent company does with their ownership of Sawstop in the same way they own Festool, Tanos, etc.

[jack duren]

As I mentioned I was hurt on a table saw in 1985. My brother told me to quit and find another career.. I ignored him and continued on. 2002…. First time have a Sawstop.used the saw 7 years while still working. I don’t think about the operation of the Sawstop or the safety devices except when running metal jigs, etc. I operate the Sawstop like a Unisaw, Powermatic, etc. Nothing changed for me because of the safety device..There ain’t nothing worse than an accident.

[Mike Cutler]

Should the insurance pool have to bear the cost of surgery, physical therapy, etc. when an individual declines the safety feature and then suffers a preventable injury? Should any and every safety feature be mandated regardless of how small the benefit?

Issues like this that seem, on the surface, to be simple matters of personal choice are rarely so simple.

Christopher

We do everyday. I own a house that will never be destroyed by any type of a natural event, but I pay into a "pool" for people to keep building houses in flood, and hurricane zones.
I live in a state where it legal to operate a motorcycle without a helmet. Someone want to become a veg-head, guess who pays.
We all live in states where it's legal to buy cigarettes, or alcohol, and eat whatever kinds of food we want that leads to way to many long tern, known medical conditions that will pay out more in a calendar quarter, than all of the accidents that could possibly occur from a table saw.
We both live in states where we have to drive in conditions that someone in Texas will never know, and both states have completely absolved themselves of any responsibility if you, or I, drive in the snow.
You live in a state that sells recreational dope legally for 18 cents on every dollar spent. Who bears that responsibility? Everyone in New England.
Bottom line. We all pay into risk pools that someone else will bear the cost for by increased premiums. That the way it works.

[George Yetka]

What about every other tool?

[Stan Calow]

There are actually real thoughtful arguments, debate, comments from consumers/companies and conclusions in that report. It's an interesting read, again if you need to get a life. So rare for our government these days. They are proposing 36 month delay instead of the usual 180 day maximum for implementation to allow other manufacturers to design and implement AIM systems.

So there's that...


It doesnt come out of the blue - the CPSC's mission is to find reasonable opportunity to make the life safer. For everyone opposed to it, there are likely just as many or more who are in favor of it. A Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is just that - a proposal. It's a public request for comment and input from anybody who has something to say about it. So anyone opposed to a rule has a chance to have their say. A comment that says "Im against it" goes in one pile. A comment that says "I'm against it, and here's why" is another pile. And "I'm against it, here's why and here's a better solution" is even better. Suggesting that there should be exceptions to an all-out rule would be an option.

I dont like mandates either, but I also don't like my insurance going up to pay for other people's accidents.

[mike stenson]

What about every other tool?

like double-insulated hand-held power tools? Yea, waste of time that was.

[Bryan Hall]

As long as the sawstop patents are expiring, this isn't as big of a concern for me. I expect most major companies have had their eye on developing and implementing the technology for years. The only thing holding the safety back was sawstop itself.

Apparently said by a patent lawyer:
"For what's actually been invented, the number of SawStop patents is absurd... but if an inventor wants to spend all that money on fees to file continuations for every conceivable iteration of the product, that's his right."

I don't desire the sawstop at all. My experience with them was horrible customer service and a saw that had terrible kickback issues. I even saw the same issue pop up with sawstop on a dedicated social media persons page when their sawstop started having kickbacks. However, if I have the option to put the flesh sensing tech in a future sliding table saw, I wouldn't turn it away.

[jack duren]

I’ve not exoerienced any of that..If you having a bunch of kickbacks, you would have them on all of them.

[mike stenson]

As long as the sawstop patents are expiring, this isn't as big of a concern for me. I expect most major companies have had their eye on developing and implementing the technology for years. The only thing holding the safety back was sawstop itself.

Apparently said by a patent lawyer:
"For what's actually been invented, the number of SawStop patents is absurd... but if an inventor wants to spend all that money on fees to file continuations for every conceivable iteration of the product, that's his right."

I don't desire the sawstop at all. My experience with them was horrible customer service and a saw that had terrible kickback issues. I even saw the same issue pop up with sawstop on a dedicated social media persons page when their sawstop started having kickbacks. However, if I have the option to put the flesh sensing tech in a future sliding table saw, I wouldn't turn it away.


This. Once it's no longer a protected technology, it'll be adopted fast.

[jack duren]

There ain’t but one way to put this… Same old song and dance..

[Rich Engelhardt]

What about every other tool?Their day is coming - just not now.

[Bryan Hall]

I’ve not exoerienced any of that..If you having a bunch of kickbacks, you would have them on all of them.

Well documented in another post. They had an issue for a while, never said every saw. I had to make videos and everything. When the blade is at 45 it had a very high likelihood of throwing the off cut. I experienced it repeatedly and recently saw videos of the same issue throwing the offcuts straight into the wall behind the saw.

They admitted it was their problem and that a tech and replacement parts were needed. Never got them to follow through though. It was the first time I ever had to file a credit card chargeback.

[jack duren]

Well documented in another post. They had an issue for a while, never said every saw. I had to make videos and everything. When the blade is at 45 it had a very high likelihood of throwing the off cut. I experienced it repeatedly and recently saw videos of the same issue throwing the offcuts straight into the wall behind the saw.

They admitted it was their problem and that a tech and replacement parts were needed. Never got them to follow through though. It was the first time I ever had to file a credit card chargeback.

So the problem was with your saw, not all Sawstops?

[James Jayko]

I live in a state where it legal to operate a motorcycle without a helmet. Someone want to become a veg-head, guess who pays.

Not to be morbid / callous / gross, but the only thing we pay for in this scenario is for the road crew to scoop up the remnants of skull and brain matter off the highway. That guy is dead.

[Bryan Hall]

So the problem was with your saw, not all Sawstops?

Again, I’ll repeat myself, I never said it was all sawstops.

It was a wide enough problem for them to write letters to affected customers and to have zero nationwide inventory to fix/replace.

Big enough of a problem to show up on well known social media peoples pages.

My point is the same, I don’t desire a sawstop, their customer service for me was terrible, the only thing holding other companies back from implementing saw safety is actually sawstop itself.

[Rob Sack]

My friend that works in the local ER says that they get hundreds of broken bones and mangled joints a year from the local ski slopes each of which will incur tens of thousands of dollars in treatment. Should we shut down the ski slope, require skiers to pay a higher premium or require them to sign a waiver that any injuries incurred while skiing should will not be covered by insurance?

I don't now how the rest of the world works but I know fellow employees that smoke don't pay higher premiums than I do because of their hazardous life choices.

Compared to smoking and skiing the cost of treating severed appendages has got to be miniscule on a nation wide basis. A couple of stiches and send them home.

Unlike having the availability of a Sawstop, thee are no safer alternatives to standard skis, at least as far as I know. As far as smoking is concerned, smokers should pay higher premiums.

[jack duren]

Again, I’ll repeat myself, I never said it was all sawstops.

It was a wide enough problem for them to write letters to affected customers and to have zero nationwide inventory to fix/replace.

Big enough of a problem to show up on well known social media peoples pages.

My point is the same, I don’t desire a sawstop, their customer service for me was terrible, the only thing holding other companies back from implementing saw safety is actually sawstop itself.



I believe it’s hit or miss or just that model.I experiences zero problems outside the norm..

[Edward Weber]

For businesses and institutions, I think it makes sense, for the individual, not as cut and dried.
I certainly don't like how SS positioned themselves in the market with their enormous web of patents but they have saved many from serious injury.
I couldn't find the actual number but I have seen things like 6,000 fingers saved. Why are so many people getting so close to the blade? SS may have saved them but I would like to know what led to all those activation's. I would rather people go through a training course or take an operators test to show they understand how to use a TS safely, rather than only relying on the built in safety feature. Maybe a little knowledge could lower that number.

My position is that as long as the safety system doesn't impede the normal operation of the saw, why not. That being said, there are, IMO better safety systems than the hotdog sensing technology out there, Many have been around for years but with SS batting down everything that might even come close to possibly infringing on their turf, there's no point in bringing anything forward.

This is another reason I don't like the original SS owners point of view, SS may be good but you're effectively stifling innovation with your monopoly.

Altendorf and others have systems that are non destructive, meaning you don't have to buy cartridges and new blades after activation, you simply reset the system. While the cost of a blade/cartridge is a small price to pay to avoid injury, in the event of an accidental misfire with SS, you need to pay.

I also DO NOT believe that tables saws are inherently dangerous, this is anthropomorphisizing a piece of machinery. This applies to all human operated tools, hand or power, the operator and how he/she uses it, is what makes it safe or unsafe.
My table saw/s have never done anything to anyone, they are safe.

[jack duren]

For businesses and institutions, I think it makes sense, for the individual, not as cut and dried.
I certainly don't like how SS positioned themselves in the market with their enormous web of patents but they have saved many from serious injury.
I couldn't find the actual number but I have seen things like 6,000 fingers saved. Why are so many people getting so close to the blade? SS may have saved them but I would like to know what led to all those activation's. I would rather people go through a training course or take an operators test to show they understand how to use a TS safely, rather than only relying on the built in safety feature. Maybe a little knowledge could lower that number.

My position is that as long as the safety system doesn't impede the normal operation of the saw, why not. That being said, there are, IMO better safety systems than the hotdog sensing technology out there, Many have been around for years but with SS batting down everything that might even come close to possibly infringing on their turf, there's no point in bringing anything forward.

This is another reason I don't like the original SS owners point of view, SS may be good but you're effectively stifling innovation with your monopoly.

Altendorf and others have systems that are non destructive, meaning you don't have to buy cartridges and new blades after activation, you simply reset the system. While the cost of a blade/cartridge is a small price to pay to avoid injury, in the event of an accidental misfire with SS, you need to pay.

I also DO NOT believe that tables saws are inherently dangerous, this is anthropomorphisizing a piece of machinery. This applies to all human operated tools, hand or power, the operator and how he/she uses it, is what makes it safe or unsafe.
My table saw/s have never done anything to anyone, they are safe.


So…. What was the price of the Altendorf vs Sawstop?


Why someone gets close to the blade can only be answered by the one who got injured. I can tell you right now, there are higher percentages that haven’t been caught by the blade.

[Jim Dwight]

With respect to patents expiring we should all know that they can be extended. In the youtube I watched they stated Steve Gass was working to make that happen. I know he sold the rights but apparently still has some involvemennt, likely defending and extending the patents. So I do not trust that as a complete solution. I think the commission should negotiate a deal with SS and anybody else claiming to have patent protection that offers other table saw providers a fixed price for the right to use any applicable patents. Apparently things like this are done in the telecommunications industry.

Patents are a big legal cost area. If you own a patent, you will need to sue people who violate it to get them to stop. That happened when Bosch tried to introduce their saw. It is not always the merits of the claim of the parties that decides these suits. Often it is who has the deepest pockets and will fight the hardest and longest. This is just my speculation but I think Bosch gave up not because SS was right but because it was more than they thought the U. S. table saw market could return to them. SS has been aggressive in the past so I don't trust that they would not be again. Issuing a mandate without a deal with them and any others with rights just sets us up to not have any new table saws in the U. S. other than those sold by SS. Unknown costs will not support manufacturers continuing in our market.

[mike stenson]

You can't just extend utility or design patents that easily. Let's not get people all wound up that this is trivial.

[Edward Weber]

Patents are a big legal cost area. If you own a patent, you will need to sue people who violate it to get them to stop. That happened when Bosch tried to introduce their saw

I agree with the first part but did Bosch violate SS patents? A a layman, I would say no, it's a completely different system. As a lawyer (Law & Order University grad :D) I would look at the tens of patents surrounding my product and find one that was breached, namely, the saw touching the finger triggering the activation. Everything else being different doesn't matter.

IMO, Bosch didn't bother to fight for two reasons.
1. The wall of patents facing them. There was no conceivable legal way of presenting their product as unique. SS had a patent covering EVERYTHING
2. The cost of fighting wouldn't be worth it, even if they somehow won

[Edward Weber]

So…. What was the price of the Altendorf vs Sawstop?


Why someone gets close to the blade can only be answered by the one who got injured. I can tell you right now, there are higher percentages that haven’t been caught by the blade.

Different countries, different machines, different everything, there is no comparison.

The point is that the tech exists, SS doesn't own the copyrite on safety itself.

[Greg Davidson]

For businesses and institutions, I think it makes sense, for the individual, not as cut and dried.
I certainly don't like how SS positioned themselves in the market with their enormous web of patents but they have saved many from serious injury.
I couldn't find the actual number but I have seen things like 6,000 fingers saved. Why are so many people getting so close to the blade? SS may have saved them but I would like to know what led to all those activation's. I would rather people go through a training course or take an operators test to show they understand how to use a TS safely, rather than only relying on the built in safety feature. Maybe a little knowledge could lower that number.

My position is that as long as the safety system doesn't impede the normal operation of the saw, why not. That being said, there are, IMO better safety systems than the hotdog sensing technology out there, Many have been around for years but with SS batting down everything that might even come close to possibly infringing on their turf, there's no point in bringing anything forward.

This is another reason I don't like the original SS owners point of view, SS may be good but you're effectively stifling innovation with your monopoly.

Altendorf and others have systems that are non destructive, meaning you don't have to buy cartridges and new blades after activation, you simply reset the system. While the cost of a blade/cartridge is a small price to pay to avoid injury, in the event of an accidental misfire with SS, you need to pay.

I also DO NOT believe that tables saws are inherently dangerous, this is anthropomorphisizing a piece of machinery. This applies to all human operated tools, hand or power, the operator and how he/she uses it, is what makes it safe or unsafe.
My table saw/s have never done anything to anyone, they are safe.

FYI, Sawstop did exactly what every company and individual business person does: fully publish their invention in exchange for a 20 year (less than that in practice) monopoly. This is what a patent is. It doesn't stifle innovation; it encourages it. Otherwise, companies would be encouraged to have trade secrets that never see the light of day, and the public would never be able to improve on a company's ideas. The fact that few other companies have come out with safety devices tells you something about the complexity of the problem, the perceived market value of such an invention relative to its cost, or both.

[Mark Wedel]

In terms of paying insurance for skiers, for now that is all pooled together. But there are certain high risk tasks (I think skydiving & rock climbing might be among them) in which the insurance explicitly does not cover injuries for those - presumably because the injury rate is so high and so costly that it is worth the companies to exclude it. Probably also that the number of people doing those activities is small enough that they can exclude it and no one care.

While one could imagine a 'fairer' health insurance system where ones activities are evaluated and appropriate higher premiums are done, this also adds a lot of complication (and hence costs) to the system to manage that. For home insurance, different risk factors are taken into account - the insurance rates are not the same across the country, even taking into account different construction costs. Houses in high fire risks pay more for insurance, if they can even get it at this point (and some things are just not covered, like floods, unless you buy specific flood insurance - hence paying more for the known risk)

[Richard Coers]

Just checked back in, I HAVE TO SAY I TOLD YOU SO. Even got a little name calling this time.

[Daniel O'Neill]

My health insurance has begun to offer incentives. Join our gym program and we'll give you points for stuff. Eventually they will track those who go to the gym and those who don't. People who don't meet their thresholds for health/activity will pay more. Folks who smoke already pay more because we know that collectively it's a dangerous hobby/habit. Life is dangerous and the insurance will pay out for accidents etc. They will however make you, as an individual, pay more if you knowingly engage in things that they deem risky behaviors. I don't like it but it will happen and probably sooner than we think.



Living is Dangerous,
the only way to be safe is to die, dead people wont get injured, all the rest of us are at risk, of sickness, injury and death. you want to ban all things that could possible injure someone, and dictate that people can only do things that are Safe. I would like that list. Everything you do has risk, from drinking a glass of water, breathing, swimming, taking a walk, jogging, riding a bike driving a car, don't even mentions sports or hobbies, or doughnuts or coffee, or god forbid, beer!

Get my point?

[Mark Hennebury]

So eventually the insurance companies will do a full-life risk assessment, where they need to know everything that you do, all day every day, and they will assign your a score and charge you accordingly, that of course would need to be updated daily, hourly, incase you ate two doughnuts instead of your daily reported one-a-day. Make sure that everyone is held accountable for any costs to the society. Great.

Insurance companies are in business to make money, not pay it out. They hire nice people to make promises and take your money, and nasty people to fight you if you try to get back what they promised to pay you. So two doughnuts would cancel your policy.
In fact they have whole bunch of tricks to deny, delay and make you go away. My guess is that they pay their employees bonuses based on how many claims they can get out of paying. Of course you can hire a lawyer and take them to court for a few years, before being forced to settle out of court for half of what you were owed.

Riding a bicycle on the road is far more dangerous than working in your woodworking shop with a regular table saw with no blade guard, in my opinion, but maybe not in someone else's.
Two people skiing down a mountain, same mountain, same skis, same boots and helmet, different skill levels, ones an Olympic expert, the other a novice should they both pay the same for insurance?
Who is going to assign a risk score to every thing that we do and every persons ability to do it?


My health insurance has begun to offer incentives. Join our gym program and we'll give you points for stuff. Eventually they will track those who go to the gym and those who don't. People who don't meet their thresholds for health/activity will pay more. Folks who smoke already pay more because we know that collectively it's a dangerous hobby/habit. Life is dangerous and the insurance will pay out for accidents etc. They will however make you, as an individual, pay more if you knowingly engage in things that they deem risky behaviors. I don't like it but it will happen and probably sooner than we think.

[James Jayko]

I think there should also be a distinction between 'things that are inherently dangerous' and 'things that are dangerous because you're being obstinate.' What, 99.999% of amputations on a table saw happen on saws with no safety devices. I'm sure there is the one joker who figures out how to, like, drop his Sawstop it on his hand and remove a finger...

[Bill Howatt]

Car insurance companies offer discounts to people who behave the rules of the road which is done by monitoring your car. So far, voluntary but with technology increasing like it is, monitoring might not be so far out in left field for lots of things. This is not intended to get into a "rights" discussion.

[Justin Rapp]

My health insurance has begun to offer incentives. Join our gym program and we'll give you points for stuff. Eventually they will track those who go to the gym and those who don't. People who don't meet their thresholds for health/activity will pay more. Folks who smoke already pay more because we know that collectively it's a dangerous hobby/habit. Life is dangerous and the insurance will pay out for accidents etc. They will however make you, as an individual, pay more if you knowingly engage in things that they deem risky behaviors. I don't like it but it will happen and probably sooner than we think.

I have a gym in my house, as do many people. During covid, companies like Peleton made out like mad, and a lot of people migrated to home workouts or outdoor activities. A lot of people have not return to gyms and levels today are still about 30% below pre-covid levels. So, I don't know how tracking a gym membership and gym usage can be a benchmark to rate insurance premiums.

[jack duren]

around and a round… kinda like musical chairs..

[Mark Hennebury]

Living is inherently dangerous.
Owning safety gear doesn't make you safe.

514485514486514487514484


I think there should also be a distinction between 'things that are inherently dangerous' and 'things that are dangerous because you're being obstinate.' What, 99.999% of amputations on a table saw happen on saws with no safety devices. I'm sure there is the one joker who figures out how to, like, drop his Sawstop it on his hand and remove a finger...

[mike stenson]

Living is inherently dangerous.
Owning safety gear doesn't make you safe.

514485514486514487514484


The pork chop guard really isn't a decent design.


I'm guessing that woodworking is the most dangerous activity most here actually do though.

[Michael Burnside]

Living is inherently dangerous.
Owning safety gear doesn't make you safe.

514485514486514487514484

Watch Jamie's videos. He wasn't doing something inherently dangerous, he was doing something he shouldn't. There wasn't a safety device there, the guard was NOT covering the blades, good grief, watch before you post something like this.

[Edward Weber]

FYI, Sawstop did exactly what every company and individual business person does: fully publish their invention in exchange for a 20 year (less than that in practice) monopoly. This is what a patent is. It doesn't stifle innovation; it encourages it. Otherwise, companies would be encouraged to have trade secrets that never see the light of day, and the public would never be able to improve on a company's ideas. The fact that few other companies have come out with safety devices tells you something about the complexity of the problem, the perceived market value of such an invention relative to its cost, or both.

I understand patents as you described but Mr Gass had such a number of them, described as a web of patents by some, that no other technology, no matter how different in approach or execution was able to survive.
You can't honestly think that in the last twenty years, no one has made improvements on stopping a saw blade, that's just not reality.
Others did have entirely different solutions, with their own approaches on the "complexity of the problem" as you put it but were sued out of competition, based on the plethora of patents in place, well above and beyond what is typical. Looking at the Bosch situation as a perfect example.
He basically made it impossible for anyone to offer any type of safety technology of any kind for a tablesaw.
This is not encouraging competition, this is using the law to keep yourself in your position.
JMHO

[Mark Hennebury]

I did watch, my whole point is safe practice is what makes you safe. Owning safety gear gives you a false sense of safety. There was a safety guard there, on all of the incidents, it simple wasn't functional, like a lot of them end up. But people get feeling safe, and don't pay attention and do shit that they should not do, like dragging their fingers over the side or back of the wood. They are dangerous practices. They don't have a safe working mentality. So eventually the safety gear will get removed or broken and they will get hurt. You have to develop safe working practices, of how to hold the wood, were to put your hands and fingers, were to put your feet, how to move and control the material, and to complete the pass, to focus on what you are doing, until its done etc... Basic rules of survival that you don't deviate from, you have to pay attention to where your fingers are, going over the cutter or near it.



Watch Jamie's videos. He wasn't doing something inherently dangerous, he was doing something he shouldn't. There wasn't a safety device there, the guard was NOT covering the blades, good grief, watch before you post something like this.

[Patrick Varley]

I understand patents as you described but Mr Gass had such a number of them, described as a web of patents by some, that no other technology, no matter how different in approach or execution was able to survive.
You can't honestly think that in the last twenty years, no one has made improvements on stopping a saw blade, that's just not reality.
Others did have entirely different solutions, with their own approaches on the "complexity of the problem" as you put it but were sued out of competition, based on the plethora of patents in place, well above and beyond what is typical. Looking at the Bosch situation as a perfect example.
He basically made it impossible for anyone to offer any type of safety technology of any kind for a tablesaw.
This is not encouraging competition, this is using the law to keep yourself in your position.
JMHO

He didn't make it impossible. He made it difficult for people to do so without compensating him for his IP. If you want to talk about a chilling effect on product development and free markets, then not protecting people's IP is a bigger problem. We aren't talking about patent trolling (though people often mistakenly refer to this situation in that way)


As I posted earlier in the thread, apparently Bosch came to a licensing agreement with SawStop that would have allowed them to sell theor saw in the US. But they chose not to do so.

[Edward Weber]

He didn't make it impossible. He made it difficult for people to do so without compensating him for his IP. If you want to talk about a chilling effect on product development and free markets, then not protecting people's IP is a bigger problem. We aren't talking about patent trolling (though people often mistakenly refer to this situation in that way)


As I posted earlier in the thread, apparently Bosch came to a licensing agreement with SawStop that would have allowed them to sell theor saw in the US. But they chose not to do so.

I read that the settlement has remained secret.
Also lets not forget that Mr Gass is a patent attorney. He knows all the ins and out of the patent system and how to make it benefit himself. With well over 100 patents related to SS, I would say he is patent trolling.
here are but a few
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/sawstop-holding-llc

This may interest anyone following this situation.
https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF-Letter-to-TTS-and-SawStop.pdf
One small paragraph from page 2
"The requirement of AIM technology in table saws almost certainly would result in most
firms licensing the AIM technology from one of the firms who have patented the
technology. This could grant a large amount of market power in the licensing of AIM
technology. Firms would then have to spend additional money for licensing, along with
installation of the technology. While most firms would likely continue production by
licensing AIM technology, some firms, especially smaller firms, would likely drop out of
the market altogether. This cost analysis captures higher price from licensing, and other
costs, in its measurement of lost consumer surplus. There would also be an additional
increase in price if a significant number of firms exited the market due to licensing …
This impact is not measured because staff is unable to determine, with certainty, how
many firms would exit the market."

[Patrick Varley]

I read that the settlement has remained secret.
Also lets not forget that Mr Gass is a patent attorney. He knows all the ins and out of the patent system and how to make it benefit himself. With well over 100 patents related to SS, I would say he is patent trolling.
here are but a few
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/sawstop-holding-llc

This may interest anyone following this situation.
https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF-Letter-to-TTS-and-SawStop.pdf
One small paragraph from page 2
"The requirement of AIM technology in table saws almost certainly would result in most
firms licensing the AIM technology from one of the firms who have patented the
technology. This could grant a large amount of market power in the licensing of AIM
technology. Firms would then have to spend additional money for licensing, along with
installation of the technology. While most firms would likely continue production by
licensing AIM technology, some firms, especially smaller firms, would likely drop out of
the market altogether. This cost analysis captures higher price from licensing, and other
costs, in its measurement of lost consumer surplus. There would also be an additional
increase in price if a significant number of firms exited the market due to licensing …
This impact is not measured because staff is unable to determine, with certainty, how
many firms would exit the market."

Are large, multinational tool conglomerates not capable of hiring attorneys with similar patent experience? If not, they seemingly have more pressing problems to address.

The guy spent a lot of time, energy and money developing a product (and then company). He seemingly has a right to be compensated for that, including protection of his ideas. The cautionary tale of what happens in an alternate situation is Robert Kearns and the intermittent windshield wiper.

And patent trolling generally has a specific definition. It involves those who go around and buy patents to things they have no interest in manufacturing or marketing, rather they simply file frivolous suits related to the patents and hope for a settlement.

[Alan Lightstone]

Trying to get some people to follow safe practices is, sadly, a fool's errand. I made it a point in my career to not lecture patients who had serious injuries doing stupid things. Fortunately, Instagram didn't seem to have a large impact when I was doing trauma.

One exception I made was when I was taking care of patients who were on their 3rd serious motorcycle accident. I would always ask them, "Are you going to rebuild your bike?" Invariably, they would say, "of course."

I would pause a few seconds and say, "Buddy. I've got some news for you. You suck at it. Lose the bike or your not going to survive your 4th accident." I assume that none of them listened to my advice. The average IQ of trauma patients some nights was frightening.

[Ray Newman]

Why shouldn't Gass protect his idea(s) with a patent?

Maybe he learned from what happened to Robert Kearn's intermittent windshield wiper system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

From the Wikipedia link: "Kearns won one of the best known patent infringement cases against Ford Motor Company (1978–1990) and a case against Chrysler Corporation (1982–1992). Having invented and patented the intermittent windshield wiper mechanism, which was useful in light rain or mist, he tried to interest the "Big Three" auto makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) in licensing the technology. Each rejected his proposal, yet began to install electronic intermittent wipers based on Kearns's design in their cars, beginning in 1969, when Ford rolled out the feature to its Mercury line."

[Ernie Hobbs]

I watched most of the video yesterday- The patent attorney that he interviewed said that at best case, this couldn't be implemented for at least three years. Not sure of how long the patents will still be there for Sawstop, since he they have like 140 of them-
I'm not sure how I feel about it. It sounds like most of the lawsuits aren't coming from users. They are coming from the insurance companies that pay out on claims. So the regular user isn't driving this.

I don't have a Sawstop and I don't plan on buying one anytime soon. But I agree they are good tablesaws and I wouldn't be opposed to getting one if I was in a position that I needed a new one. They're kind of expensive, but so is most everything else in my shop. Every time I upgrade a piece of equipment, the new one is way more than the original one I'm replacing. But my old 1940s Unisaw keeps on running fine and it has been reliable to me for 15 years and for 60+ years to previous owners. Since I put a modern Unifence on it, I have never felt it was unsafe or going to get me. I've had a couple of near misses, but every time I can trace it to something I did that was stupid and I learned from it. I guess I've been lucky, but I try to be careful about using push sticks and try not to put myself in a position to cause my hands to be in a position to be near the blade (or when i do, I'm super careful about technique).

We'll see where this leads. I guess in 10 years I'll be in the market for a Sawstop or another manufacturer licensing their tech.

[Edward Weber]

Why shouldn't Gass protect his idea(s) with a patent?

Maybe he learned from what happened to Robert Kearn's intermittent windshield wiper system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

From the Wikipedia link: "Kearns won one of the best known patent infringement cases against Ford Motor Company (1978–1990) and a case against Chrysler Corporation (1982–1992). Having invented and patented the intermittent windshield wiper mechanism, which was useful in light rain or mist, he tried to interest the "Big Three" auto makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) in licensing the technology. Each rejected his proposal, yet began to install electronic intermittent wipers based on Kearns's design in their cars, beginning in 1969, when Ford rolled out the feature to its Mercury line."

If the main theme is really about safety, as Mr Gass has claimed in the past, maybe look at what Volvo did after they invented the three point seat belt.

[Warren Lake]

Had a car once with a lap belt and another seat belt that came through the seat and down to clip into the lap belt. Really nice, the roadmastes the belt is on the post and not as comfortable. Thanks for mentioning to look up Volvo had no idea.

The saw thing is wrong from the start. You have a license for cars and weapons and for trades.

You have a visa you can get a table saw. Not taught most people so they learn as go. Or you learn from a you tube guy who is learning as he goes. They should break down accidents to Hobby and Trade. Trade guys I knew had their fingers yet had huge hours over 50 plus years and at times big pressure which puts the stakes up. They were taught stuff before they could work on the machines. No gaurantees of course but most of them are safer for the teaching they had.

You are treating an issue with a device when not learning in the first place is much of the issue. Some will have more natural ability than others.



514543

[mike stenson]

The tone of this is funny. I didn't have safety equipment that was transparent to use, neither should you.

It seems that change is the issue.

[jack duren]

Why shouldn't Gass protect his idea(s) with a patent?

Maybe he learned from what happened to Robert Kearn's intermittent windshield wiper system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

From the Wikipedia link: "Kearns won one of the best known patent infringement cases against Ford Motor Company (1978–1990) and a case against Chrysler Corporation (1982–1992). Having invented and patented the intermittent windshield wiper mechanism, which was useful in light rain or mist, he tried to interest the "Big Three" auto makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) in licensing the technology. Each rejected his proposal, yet began to install electronic intermittent wipers based on Kearns's design in their cars, beginning in 1969, when Ford rolled out the feature to its Mercury line."



He should protect it.

[Steve Demuth]

Festool does not own the patents. Their parent company does with their ownership of Sawstop in the same way they own Festool, Tanos, etc.

Yes. Thanks for the precision. Sloppy writing on my part to attribute them to Festool.

[Steve Demuth]

My health insurance has begun to offer incentives. Join our gym program and we'll give you points for stuff. Eventually they will track those who go to the gym and those who don't. People who don't meet their thresholds for health/activity will pay more. Folks who smoke already pay more because we know that collectively it's a dangerous hobby/habit. Life is dangerous and the insurance will pay out for accidents etc. They will however make you, as an individual, pay more if you knowingly engage in things that they deem risky behaviors. I don't like it but it will happen and probably sooner than we think.

In the United States, if you're talking about medical insurance, all small group and individual insurance must comply with the ACA guaranteed issue rule: an insurer cannot deny a coverage to anyone (who is eligible to be insured) in the areas the policy is offered, and the insurance premium can only vary based on the applicants, geographical location (zipcode), and smoking status. That's the law. So no, they won't charge you more based on your occupation or hobbies, and can't start doing so unless the law is changed in a significant way. Life insurance is a different matter, with different rules.

[Steve Demuth]

This. Once it's no longer a protected technology, it'll be adopted fast.

And, in as much as the first SawStop PCS was on the market in 2004, that date is very close now, by legal construction. Everything used to construct the PCS will have been in the public domain for a full 22 years by early 2026. You could manufacture and market a pretty close rip-off of the PCS at that date, and be beyond the reach of patent infringement.

But as I said earlier, the primary patents that were at issue with the Bosch saw are all already expired. In particular, the voltage leak detection mechanism and the blade withdrawal mechanism are no longer protected.

I have little doubt, personally, that the CPSC's timing of their proposal to require blade stopping on table saws is related to the ending of patent protection.

[Stan Calow]

No doubt Chinese manufacturers have already been gearing up to make their versions.

[Monte Milanuk]

Glass / Sawstops "concerns" about end-user safety would have a lot more merit if they weren't actively trying to extend those patents that give them an effective choke-hold on the market under the proposed rulings.

[James Jayko]

Living is inherently dangerous.
Owning safety gear doesn't make you safe.

514485514486514487514484

But if you don’t think it HELPS, you’re being silly. I’ve seen three people trigger the sawstop in a public workshop that would have 💯 led to three amputations on a Unisaw.

If it prevents 9/10 tablesaw amputations, seems worth it in my book. But I love keeping all 10.

[Warren Lake]

sounds like a poor shop.

Ive said 100 times people need to get some training on a saw.

Its one thing to screw up, its another to not know what you are doing and learn as you go unless you can grow new fingers.

[jack duren]

You can learn all the great tricks not to get hurt, but there is only one way to not get hurt on a table saw Don’t operate one ever or just stay seated on the couch

[Mark Hennebury]

Safety is complex, human nature is probably the biggest issue, and the least addressed. Everyone pushes using safety gear, push-sticks, grippers, blade guards, "the rules" don't get your hands closer to the blade than 4", 6" 8" 24" or whatever, what should be pushed in my opinion is education on wood, cutting tools, machinery, how stuff works and why. you need to understand this stuff so that you know what you are doing.

Maybe I am silly but safety gear can give a false sense of safety and make people who don't know what they are doing get themselves hurt.
Sawstop is a great concept.

Question for you, if saw stop saved a 100 fingers. would the same people using a regular saw have lost 100 also? Or do sawstop users have more accidents because they have a sawstop. I understand to sawstop users the answer doesn't matter, because they can have as many accidents as they want........on the sawstop.......... but it isn't on the rest of their machines. does it breed a dangerous sense of no consequence's?

Do a quick hands-up survey how many people on this forum have had accidents on their jointer,, how many of them had a guard, functional or not on it at the time.
How many have guards on the jointer, how many don't, professional or hobbyist, how many years/ hours use, jointer size. Get some real data.




But if you don’t think it HELPS, you’re being silly. I’ve seen three people trigger the sawstop in a public workshop that would have  led to three amputations on a Unisaw.

If it prevents 9/10 tablesaw amputations, seems worth it in my book. But I love keeping all 10.

[Monte Milanuk]

do sawstop users have more accidents because they have a sawstop?

Interesting question. I follow a Sawstop owner's group on FB, and I swear it seems like every time someone runs their finger into the blade they post a pic saying "Look, see how it saved me!!!". Meanwhile, I'm thinking "WTF were you doing with your fingers that close to the blade in the first place?!?".

The safety feature is great, but it seems like too many use it as a substitute for basic safety / common sense.

[Warren Lake]

lots of dynamics. Take a guy in the trade working an 80 hour week with a deadline only to have a material supplier let them down. thats a distracting reality and more so if there is a performance bond

I can say for sure I know two people that lost fingers on jointers that had the guards on them. Both of them full time people and both of them excellent people, the best of people ive met over the years.

[Edward Weber]

Interesting question. I follow a Sawstop owner's group on FB, and I swear it seems like every time someone runs their finger into the blade they post a pic saying "Look, see how it saved me!!!". Meanwhile, I'm thinking "WTF were you doing with your fingers that close to the blade in the first place?!?".

The safety feature is great, but it seems like too many use it as a substitute for basic safety / common sense.
"do sawstop users have more accidents because they have a sawstop? "
Great question and what I was getting at earlier. I really believe that the false sense of security (invulnerability) is dangerous in itself.
Safety devices can also fail from time to time and typically require periodic maintenance to keep them up and running, so they're ready to activate when needed.

[Monte Milanuk]

Exactly. I think a lot of people (too many) treat it as the first line of defense, instead of the last.

[jack duren]

I think old timers like me use it the same as any other, new woodworkers may get a fault sense and take chances. Maybe, I’m just guessin..

[Edward Weber]

Exactly. I think a lot of people (too many) treat it as the first line of defense, instead of the last.

That's a great way to phrase it

I am also curious about the number of people who were encouraged by others, like their wives, to purchase. Why is this I wonder. Or the number of people who had an accident, then bought a SS.

I do find the demographics interesting.

[Michael Burnside]

I think old timers like me use it the same as any other, new woodworkers may get a fault sense and take chances. Maybe, I’m just guessin..

I don’t think it’s experience more than it is complacency. I for one respect the saw and I never think about the safety device present, I think about what the hell I’m doing. Just because I wear a seatbelt doesn’t mean I drive like a complete imbecile either, but we’ve all witnessed morons there too, plenty of which have drive for a measurable time :)

[Larry Frank]

I do not know about any other Sawstop users, but I do not think of it as any line of defense. I see that blade whirling and think all I want to do is keep my fingers out of it. I do not think that I can just put my fingers in it and be ok.

[jack duren]

I don’t think it’s experience more than it is complacency. I for one respect the saw and I never think about the safety device present, I think about what the hell I’m doing. Just because I wear a seatbelt doesn’t mean I drive like a complete imbecile either, but we’ve all witnessed morons there too, plenty of which have drive for a measurable time :)

I’ve already been hurt on the table saw. I’m well aware of what’s going on the saw as well as what’s going around me. I’m not just old, I’m experienced…I got hurt in 1985 on a set of dado blades and I spend the next 35 years keeping my hands out the saw. You want safety , talk to me …

[Mark Hennebury]

It is hard to trust reported data too many variables, depends on who's presenting it and what their motivation is at to what the chose to include and leave out..

For instance I have never used a jointer with the guard on it, and almost never used a push stick or grippers, i am a professional, did it for a living, worked long hours, sometimes around the clock, under pressure of dead lines, often worked through the night alone. Work from both the infeed and out feed ends, I had a 6" delta as my fist jointer, the a 24" German Klein jointer and a 24" combination jointer/ planer, for the past 20 years i have a 20" Wadkin.
never had an accident. Not bragging just stating the facts. I could have an accident tomorrow, and most likely will if I continue ( have some age and medical issues)

Logically you would think that people would flock to me and ask me to teach how to use a jointer. I have a 50 year safety record! under tough conditions, I should be famous.
But you know all i get is abuse any time that i mention it. Stoned to death and called reckless, told that i disregard all safety, and i am an accident waiting to happen, and when , not if, but when I get -injured a lot of people will be happy. They will say, told you so.

They want to believe that my safety has been dumb stupid luck, every second of every day for decades. They dismiss the astronomical odds of that absurd position because it doesn't fit what they believe.
When I point out all the woodworkers that have safety guards and pushsticks and grippers that have had accidents, they say that I am being mean, that these people just made a mistake and it can happen to anyone.
If you examine what caused their accidents it is not difficult to see that they were simply doing stuff that they shouldn't do. The wood didn't slip out of their hands. They put their hands in the wrong place, hold the material incorrectly, drag their fingers over the blades.
first photo Current Wadkin, second photo 24" German jointer planer, third photo delta 6" and German 24" and Balastrini tenoner.

514618514619 514620

[Patty Hann]

I mentioned that I take WW classes 2 nights a week. One of the guys (about 65) occasionally brings along his brother (age 70 or so) to help him out with some large stock.
Class mate introduced brother and told everyone how his brother is a super experienced, longtime woodworker.

Class shop has 4 Sawstops... one of which is dedicated to Dado blade use.
Situation: all other three SS in use, I am waiting my turn for the saw the classmate and his brother are using.

They make the last cut...offcut is right next to the blade. Brother moves hand into spinning blade. Not next to it (which would still be stupid) but right up to the spinning edge.
At that point in my mind's eye everything happening was moving in slow motion.
I know I tried to shout something like "NO! STOP!" (and no thought even entered my mind that "This is a Saw Stop so he's NOT going to hurt himself much at all")
I know my mouth was agape but the words never came out.

And the guy triggered the brake. I was still speechless, still sporting a major jaw drop.
My next thought was: Well, Sawstops do work.
And then I finally got my voice back, turned to my classmate and said, "Your brother is an idiot."

[mike stenson]

I think old timers like me use it the same as any other, new woodworkers may get a fault sense and take chances. Maybe, I’m just guessin..

Aren't you missing some finger parts?

I've known people with well over 25 years of experience end up missing them suddenly.

This thread is funny at this point.

[Ronald Blue]

Interesting question. I follow a Sawstop owner's group on FB, and I swear it seems like every time someone runs their finger into the blade they post a pic saying "Look, see how it saved me!!!". Meanwhile, I'm thinking "WTF were you doing with your fingers that close to the blade in the first place?!?".

The safety feature is great, but it seems like too many use it as a substitute for basic safety / common sense.

I think I'm in the same group. I scratch my head so often from the "activation" posts. Whether it's flesh or the miter gauge in nearly every post I'm thinking some people shouldn't operate machinery. So I'm going to cut a 30 degree miter or whatever. What's it take? 5 seconds to make a dry run with blade off to verify you won't make contact with the gauge? I own a Sawstop PCS. It was a fantastic upgrade from the old Craftsman I used to have. I still pay close attention to where my hands are in relationship to the spinning blade. I don't want to be the one where the technology failed. I despise how Gass tried to strongarm the technology on everyone.

[Keith Christopher]

The way some of the insurance talk was on here it reminded me of the movie i-robot where the robots deemed it to unsafe to venture out of ones house so they disallowed it forcibly keeping people locked indoors.

Insurance companies are not your friend, in fact you are betting against yourself. You're paying for something that will pay in case something goes wrong, and you're trying hard for something to not go wrong. LOL.

While a necessary evil in modern day as we often are not in control of our safety (drunk driver, distracted driver) so I understand it to help prevent the burden of large expenses surrounding injury or loss. And if you have it, they will raise your rates so you end up paying back what they paid out and if that amount is too high then you get dropped. (I'll put my soapbox away on this)

I also believe that the CPSC should not be involved here. The CPSC was designed to force manufacturers of items to insure their product is not designed or manufactured faulty or otherwise could cause injury or harm, through negligence of poor design/production/materials. There are mandated safety features that make sense, but is it the fault of the manufacturer or the user ? The product or how it's being used. We see many instances of people doing mildly to outrageous things in wood working that make us shudder.

I am all for products being safer, and I honestly don't mind the saw stop or blade brake (wish I had one), as an option. But mandating it I'm not sure how I feel about that. I see it on one hand, but I also see it as a slippery slope. What do they require next due to the improper use or carelessness ?

I have a friend who is a sheriff, and he told me one, there is no such thing as an accident, someone made a mistake. Either during the manufacture, or maintenance, or use. Something that causes unexpected behavior from normal operation.

For us, it is the same, but sometimes wood can have surprises in store for us. I worry everytime I fire up a powertool. I often wonder if a blade brake would make me less worry some I as I use my TS. Dunno.

I think safety devices are awesome, it's the mandate that bothers me.

[mike stenson]

ahhhh the 'slippery slope' trope


Manufacturers wouldn't include blade guards, or riving knives if they didn't have to.

[John Lanciani]

ahhhh the 'slippery slope' trope


Manufacturers wouldn't include blade guards, or riving knives if they didn't have to.

Delta has been making blade guards for their saws since the mid 1930's, CPSC was formed in 1972.

[Keith Christopher]

ahhhh the 'slippery slope' trope


Manufacturers wouldn't include blade guards, or riving knives if they didn't have to.

Ahh the "Manufacturers wouldn't do <blah blah blah> if they didn't have to." trope.


Just because something is of common use does not invalidate an assertion simply because one calls it a trope.
It just show an unwillingness to consider the assertion as it opposes one's opinion.

[Edward Weber]

I also believe that the CPSC should not be involved here. The CPSC was designed to force manufacturers of items to insure their product is not designed or manufactured faulty or otherwise could cause injury or harm, through negligence of poor design/production/materials. There are mandated safety features that make sense, but is it the fault of the manufacturer or the user ? The product or how it's being used. We see many instances of people doing mildly to outrageous things in wood working that make us shudder.


Exactly

If a table saw is operated properly there is little danger of any type of injury. There are years of evidence to back this up, it is a fact.

It has been the position of Mr Gass and SS that, any saw without their tech is inherently unsafe. This is their opinion and can not be proven unless the saw is being used in an unsafe manner, which undermines their claim.

I say this as someone who has all their digits and who has also been working with tools daily for almost 45 years.
ANY tool can be unsafe if used improperly.

[jack duren]

Inexperience at the commercial shop is why I got hurt. I was asked to do something but the owner that I should not have been doing. My trainer was told not to help me and I ended up getting hurt..

[Keith Christopher]

Inexperience at the commercial shop is why I got hurt. I was asked to do something but the owner that I should not have been doing. My trainer was told not to help me and I ended up getting hurt..

Oh man sorry to hear that. Hope the outcome wasn't severe.

[jack duren]

Oh man sorry to hear that. Hope the outcome wasn't severe.

Almost 40 years ago…

[Alex Zeller]

Who makes the Table saws for Sawstop? Harvey, Geetech, someone else? If it's not Sawstop you can bet that once the patents run out it'll take no time for that company to start painting them every color, from gold to green. Unless there's a clause in the contract that they can't there's no reverse engineering needed.

[mike stenson]

Ahh the "Manufacturers wouldn't do <blah blah blah> if they didn't have to." trope.


Just because something is of common use does not invalidate an assertion simply because one calls it a trope.
It just show an unwillingness to consider the assertion as it opposes one's opinion.

as funny as it may sound, I actually work in hardware engineering. We wouldn't include safety devices either, without actual legal requirements. Because they're expensive, and really provide limited market advantage.

I remember when seat belts were optional. I guess since they're required now, we're well down that 'slippery slope' too... yea, that's a trope. Consumer protections are why you can trust the food supply too.

[Patrick Varley]

Because they're expensive, and really provide limited market advantage.

I think this is a key point. Going back to the beginning of the story, Gass supposedly offered to license the tech to companies after he first invented it. They all said no, likely because they didn't think it added any real value in the context of selling more saws.

One of the reasons this conversation gets hashed out every 6 months is because those companies were wrong. The safety feature did offer value when put on an otherwise solid saw.

[Paul Koenigs]

Not to be morbid / callous / gross, but the only thing we pay for in this scenario is for the road crew to scoop up the remnants of skull and brain matter off the highway. That guy is dead.

Nope, people survive motorcycle accidents. They might have a coma, brain damage, etc.. They don't all die.
His point stands. We all pay into insurance. There's people that use the insurance that have higher risk profiles than we do.

If someone wants a sawstop, that's their choice.
At the same time, if someone does a risk-reward analysis and decides that dumping their current saw and buying a sawstop is not a good financial decision, that should be respected too.
I do not have a sawstop.. honestly, in terms of risk of getting injured, it's way down the list of stuff I do.
Driving a car, riding a bike, crossing the street.. heck anything involving other people is a heck of a lot more dangerous than me using a tablesaw by myself, no one else in the room. I should have to pay thousands of dollars and throw away a perfectly good saw to make the insurance companies happier.
Where does it stop? Is the government going to mandate "stopping" technology on bandsaws, jointers, drill presses?
How about a lock on the hood of your car to prevent you from accidently sticking your hand in the engine while it's running?
We need less government regulation in our lives, not more.

[Keith Christopher]

as funny as it may sound, I actually work in hardware engineering. We wouldn't include safety devices either, without actual legal requirements. Because they're expensive, and really provide limited market advantage.

I remember when seat belts were optional. I guess since they're required now, we're well down that 'slippery slope' too... yea, that's a trope. Consumer protections are why you can trust the food supply too.

It does sound funny.

Allow me to trope some more.

Now they're trying to pass a bill that all vehicles produced from 2026 on will be required that have a "kill switch" you know for safety.

"Specifically, Section 24220 (https://www.congress.gov/117/plaws/publ58/PLAW-117publ58.pdf#page=403) of the bill directs the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop rules that would require new cars to be equipped with technology that "passively monitors the performance of a driver," identifies whether they may be impaired and prevents or limits motor vehicle operation "if an impairment is detected."

Hope you're driving is on point if your car thinks you are driving poorly well you're not driving at all. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Dave Roock]

Yes it is very simple - as I was taught your actual cutting time is very short. Put all day dreaming out of your mind for that short time, think ONLY of your cut and keep your fingers away from the blade. The danger of Sawstop is complacency, other power tools do not have this feature yet demand respect at the risk of injury.

[Steve Demuth]

Exactly

If a table saw is operated properly there is little danger of any type of injury. There are years of evidence to back this up, it is a fact.

It has been the position of Mr Gass and SS that, any saw without their tech is inherently unsafe. This is their opinion and can not be proven unless the saw is being used in an unsafe manner, which undermines their claim.

I say this as someone who has all their digits and who has also been working with tools daily for almost 45 years.
ANY tool can be unsafe if used improperly.

It's true. If you do everything right, all the time, the likelihood of injury is very small. It's not zero though, because the unexpected can happen to anyone. Furthermore, I can guarantee you that when humans are involved, no operator does everything right, every time. There will be mistakes. The fact that some people get through 4 decades of work with dangerous tools and never get hurt only proves that that risks can be made small, not that they don't go away.

I worked for many years at a hospital rated by many to have the best, safest surgery practice in the world. These were the most skilled, highly trained surgeons and support teams you can imagine. But there were still injuries to the surgeons (needle sticks, or cuts), and there were still post-op infections, and still mistakes made. Those teams never stopped looking for additional safeguards. When they found something that worked, they made it standard practice across the hundreds of ORs and surgical teams.

None of us are smarter than 100% of the random chance and chaos that is in our worlds. Sawstop's technology, like the airbags in my car, and the roll bar on my tractor, is proven to improve safety - to prevent and reduce the severity of injuries. The fact that most people who have it may never actually need it (I have never, fingers-crossed, needed the roll bar yet either), doesn't change its aggregate benefit.

[Ronald Blue]

It does sound funny.

Allow me to trope some more.

Now they're trying to pass a bill that all vehicles produced from 2026 on will be required that have a "kill switch" you know for safety.

"Specifically, Section 24220 (https://www.congress.gov/117/plaws/publ58/PLAW-117publ58.pdf#page=403) of the bill directs the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop rules that would require new cars to be equipped with technology that "passively monitors the performance of a driver," identifies whether they may be impaired and prevents or limits motor vehicle operation "if an impairment is detected."

Hope you're driving is on point if your car thinks you are driving poorly well you're not driving at all. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I didn't read the article but saw that California has proposed (or someone there) that cars be made so they can't speed. That will lead to a real mess. Anyone who has spent any significant time at all knows how bad it is when you get two trucks with the speed limiters on them. One runs 65 and one 65.1 MPH or something similar. Three mile down the road the truck in the passing or left lane still hasn't cleared the one in the right and you have 50 cars backed up behind them. Then road rage happens.

99.8% of the time I drive better than most. Except when road conditions are good I don't set the cruise on 55, or 65, or 70. I always drive 5 over. I still get passed often. If I really want to push the limit in warm weather I have a torch red 2 seat convertible that will give me that pleasure. I've never ever came close to what it's capable of though. If I was 18 I probably could tell you exactly what the absolute top speed was. I'm old now though so just knowing it can go extremely fast is enough for me.

[Mark Hennebury]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Four decades of work without "accident" means that someone has developed good working practice and the discipline to follow it. It doesn't mean that you have not encountered problems, but that you have been prepared and able to deal with them.

Surgeons do a few hours of surgery and think they are gods.

Furniture makers often build pieces of furniture that have hundreds of parts, tens of thousands of operations and take months to complete, every part must fit within a few thousandths of an inch. That requires planning, it requires error checking and confirmation at each step of he way to ensure that errors are not carried over to the next operation. It requires a lack of arrogance, you cant run on assumptions, you have to do each set-up to be perfect, then assume that it's not, and check and verify, and make any adjustments before moving on to the next one. That is how you get a complex job done.

I offered to teach the surgeons at my hospital after they did my surgery, because it was quite apparent that they wouldn't make it as furniture-makers.




It's true. If you do everything right, all the time, the likelihood of injury is very small. It's not zero though, because the unexpected can happen to anyone. Furthermore, I can guarantee you that when humans are involved, no operator does everything right, every time. There will be mistakes. The fact that some people get through 4 decades of work with dangerous tools and never get hurt only proves that that risks can be made small, not that they don't go away.

I worked for many years at a hospital rated by many to have the best, safest surgery practice in the world. These were the most skilled, highly trained surgeons and support teams you can imagine. But there were still injuries to the surgeons (needle sticks, or cuts), and there were still post-op infections, and still mistakes made. Those teams never stopped looking for additional safeguards. When they found something that worked, they made it standard practice across the hundreds of ORs and surgical teams.

None of us are smarter than 100% of the random chance and chaos that is in our worlds. Sawstop's technology, like the airbags in my car, and the roll bar on my tractor, is proven to improve safety - to prevent and reduce the severity of injuries. The fact that most people who have it may never actually need it (I have never, fingers-crossed, needed the roll bar yet either), doesn't change its aggregate benefit.

[Mark Hennebury]

If you want to know why surgeons make mistakes, it's the same reason that people with SawStop make more mistakes than people with regular saws, lack of consequences.

[Larry Frank]

If you want to know why surgeons make mistakes, it's the same reason that people with SawStop make more mistakes than people with regular saws, lack of consequences.

I have heard this a number if times now but have not read any documentation for it. I do not think you are correct but would really like to see the backing for the statement

[Jerry Bruette]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Four decades of work without "accident" means that someone has developed good working practice and the discipline to follow it. It doesn't mean that you have not encountered problems, but that you have been prepared and able to deal with them.

Surgeons do a few hours of surgery and think they are gods.

Furniture makers often build pieces of furniture that have hundreds of parts, tens of thousands of operations and take months to complete, every part must fit within a few thousandths of an inch. That requires planning, it requires error checking and confirmation at each step of he way to ensure that errors are not carried over to the next operation. It requires a lack of arrogance, you cant run on assumptions, you have to do each set-up to be perfect, then assume that it's not, and check and verify, and make any adjustments before moving on to the next one. That is how you get a complex job done.

I offered to teach the surgeons at my hospital after they did my surgery, because it was quite apparent that they wouldn't make it as furniture-makers.

Might get this thread locked or even thrown off this forum, but here it goes.

This is easily one of the most arrogant posts I've seen here in 15 years.

Mark, you know you haven't gone four decades with out an accident. Hell you posted about it, you wear the scars from it. But you are too arrogant to admit that it happened and an accident could happen to any member of this forum. If people feel safer using guards leave them be, don't berate them for their methods. Offer some positive advice and maybe some encouragement.

I've looked at your work and some of it is awe inspiring. I know I'll never be able to do some of the work you've done, but darn it don't keep coming across the way you do.

I would guess that surgeons make mistakes because of pressure and the fact that you don't get a chance to go to the stock rack and remill a kidney or femur or whatever. And I'm damn sure that as good and knowledgeable as you are I'd pick a surgeon over you to fix any medical problem I have.

[Alan Lightstone]

Orthopedic surgeons - "Strong as an ox, with a similar IQ."

So sayeth the anesthesiologist.....

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Jerry, I don't have a problem with you saying anything to me. I say a lot of stuff that I probably shouldn't and deserve to get put in my place.

However there may be some truth in what i say.

I have had many small accidents, nicks and cuts, put a groove through my thumb with a router, and a 1/16" groove through a finger running to close to a table saw blade. I had one nasty accident i n 2019 when I got a chunk of grinding wheel through my face.
You can say that it was my fault if you wish. You can say that I shouldn't have done what I did, the way that i did etc.. and that it could have been avoided, all true. But I accept that life is dangerous, and that I am never safe, i only have margins of safety, so i make judgements on how risky an operation is and my chance of success. For the most part that has served me well, I have both eyes and all ten digits. The accident, was caused by the failure of the electronic speed control of my router. You can say what you want about what i was/ should/ should not have done, but the bottom line if the router had done what it was supposed to do I would not have been injured. No different than if your car sped up from 50 mph to 150mph on its own. unforeseen, unpredictable. You can have your own opinion on that.

Most accidents that i have had or seen are from people doing stuff wrong, not from machine failures.

Woodworking is mostly paint by numbers. If you follow procedure it works.
Accidents happen when you mind wanders, don't pay attention, don't follow procedure. of course it can happen to anyone.

My point was never to berate people for using guards, no idea how you got that.

My point is only to share my knowledge and opinion from my experience, that it is knowledge gives you the ability to make good decisions, and the confidence to work safely, and that safety devises alone will not keep you safe.

I never said that surgeon's are not as good or knowledgeable as me.
And you have to be silly to pick me to fix a medical problem.
But I wouldn't f*ck up your furniture.

The fact is if you screw up on a table saw you will get hurt. That's good incentive.

I had some surgery they made an error.
Could easily have been avoided, if they had followed procedure. Not complicated at all.

I complained to the surgeon, he made excuses, i complained to the hospital, they covered for the surgeon, I complained the the College of physicians and surgeons, they backed the surgeon, I called a lawyer, he said, no law firm wants to take on the Canadian Medical Protection agency, not unless its an easy win and a big payout. He said they have eight billion dollars to fight to protect the surgeons, and they fight nasty. 45% of cases get dropped, 15% get settled out of court, the ones make it to court only 10% end in favor of the patient. And they can drag it on for 6 or 7 years.

The surgeon is important, you are not. Lawyers work for the money. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. Consequences.

The surgeons are almost untouchable, and they know it.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Jerry, your comment about me being to arrogant to admit that I had an accident was not really true, i posted it on multiple online platforms to warn people.
I lost three teeth and the bone that they were in,, leaving a hole in the roof of my mouth. a severed nerve in my face, and some nasty bruises

This is when i got home from the hospital 2019
514721
A couple of weeks later when the swelling went down and the bruise showed up.
514723

This was from a year ago.
514722


https://youtu.be/pNhtXgBHijw?si=6Hq_ztKdOpk2ZOf3

[Mark Hennebury]

A link to a video that I did after I tested a bunch of Makita Routers from my collection.
So the only major accident that I have had was from an unpredictable machine failure.
I have lived by making judgements based on knowledge of the tools, materials, machinery and process, and being able to be safe enough, never safe, but save enough, sometimes something unexpected happens, you can't win them all.



https://youtu.be/kYoEiwL-QCs

[Mark Hennebury]

The surgeon didn't make a mistake, he did exactly what he intended to do and did a great job....if he had checked his facts as he was supposed to, and followed the law and got informed consent, he might have done the right job.




I would guess that surgeons make mistakes because of pressure and the fact that you don't get a chance to go to the stock rack and remill a kidney or femur or whatever. And I'm damn sure that as good and knowledgeable as you are I'd pick a surgeon over you to fix any medical problem I have.

[Jerry Bruette]

Hi Jerry, your comment about me being to arrogant to admit that I had an accident was not really true, i posted it on multiple online platforms to warn people.
I lost three teeth and the bone that they were in,, leaving a hole in the roof of my mouth. a severed nerve in my face, and some nasty bruises

This is when i got home from the hospital 2019
514721
A couple of weeks later when the swelling went down and the bruise showed up.
514723

This was from a year ago.
514722


https://youtu.be/pNhtXgBHijw?si=6Hq_ztKdOpk2ZOf3

Do you think if you would have been using a tool post grinder with a guard on it instead of a jury rigged wood router set up that you would have suffered injuries from an accident?

[Mark Hennebury]

No, of course not, what's your point?

I n factories they have millions of dollars worth of equipment for every job, the have highly specialized machines fore every operation, the have machines for making screws, washers, nuts and bolts. In small custom shops we have to work with what we have. If you go to any machine shop to get something done, they wont have the same set up the the factory had, because they are not a factory. So they improvise. That's what I have done all my life. I work with what i have. I use what i think will do the job.
All I have to go on is what the machines is advertised as being able to do. If i push the tool beyond what is states is the limit, my bad. I accept that. But if I need a 2000lb hoist and I expect it to hold 2000 lb. and my life may depend on it. If the Makita router states that I have speed control from 8,000 rpm -24,000- and i need it to run 8,000 rpm and i set it to 8,000, it should run 8,000rpm. so your argument is just trying to avoid the fact that this was a machine failure not mine.

If you are driving your convertible downtown in a parade with the homecoming queen sat on the back and your driving at 5mph, and the speeds up to 50mph, and injures a bunch of people, I guess some would ignore the speed control failure and say it was your fault, you shouldn't have been doing that.


Do you think if you would have been using a tool post grinder with a guard on it instead of a jury rigged wood router set up that you would have suffered injuries from an accident?

[Michael Burnside]

If you want to know why surgeons make mistakes, it's the same reason that people with SawStop make more mistakes than people with regular saws, lack of consequences.

Respectfully this is absolute, unsubstantiated nonsense. Accidents happen for a multitude of reasons, safety devices notwithstanding. That’s why they call them accidents. There isn’t a soul on this forum, myself included, that is always in perfect form and never makes mistakes.

[Derek Kessler]

This whole safety mandate on table saws is a bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it? On one hand, the SawStop technology is proven to save fingers, and that's fantastic. On the other hand, it feels like we might be headed towards a one-size-fits-all scenario. I love having choices in brands and features, but safety is paramount. It's a tough call, and I hope there's room for innovation without monopoly.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Michael, If you want to complete a woodwork project without error, like say a piece of furniture, do you believe that it can be done? It may not be perfect, but it can be done to the best that you can do and error free, that's what i believe.
Once you have learned your trade, and you know how to make stuff, the rest is developing a process to avoid errors, then making the commitment and having the discipline to follow each step of the process. Errors happen when you skip steps, because you forget or are in a hurry and don't have the discipline to follow each step. Everyone has accidents and make mistakes, made lots myself, mostly from not following procedure, not checking and verifying.

Dressing and cutting sticks of wood to size is not complicated. Making a square wooden frame is not difficult. There are relationships to understand, and a process to follow to assure that it is straight, square the correct size, the left is on the left, the right is on the right, the top is on the top, and the bottom is on the bottom, etc. that's not magic or luck, it is process, paint by numbers. To get it to work, you have to do each step of the process. It is simply project management, and as far as I can see it would probably be the same for most projects in most industries and professions. Just like handling wood on a jointer, you analyze and develop a process, where to put your fingers and where not to. If you use a jointer and don't have a set process or deviate from it, you have a good chance of getting hurt. So my rants are usually about people developing safe working habits. I have never suggested that I don't make mistakes, or in anyway berated people for using safety devices, I have pointed out that safety devices alone wont keep you safe, only that knowledge and good working habits give you the best chance of avoiding errors and accidents.

They are just my opinions based on my experience and may or may not be of any value, but they are there for consideration if anyone is interested.

Feel free to say whatever you want to me, I am a big boy and I can take.
Give me your opinions or shoot down mine, its all good, maybe stuff to be learned from for the common good.

Of course you can trip, or drop the wood on the saw, or a carbide tooth can come loose and hit you in the face, or your cat could jump on the saw.

Respectfully this is absolute, unsubstantiated nonsense. Accidents happen for a multitude of reasons, safety devices notwithstanding. That’s why they call them accidents. There isn’t a soul on this forum, myself included, that is always in perfect form and never makes mistakes.

[Rod Sheridan]

This whole safety mandate on table saws is a bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it? On one hand, the SawStop technology is proven to save fingers, and that's fantastic. On the other hand, it feels like we might be headed towards a one-size-fits-all scenario. I love having choices in brands and features, but safety is paramount. It's a tough call, and I hope there's room for innovation without monopoly.

Hi Derek, I see no reason why safety features would reduce the number of brands or features.

We already have 4 manufacturers with active blade braking, the number will only increase with time.

Regards, Rod

[Mark Hennebury]

From an article in the local news last year.

Hospital secrets: They don't tell the deadly mistakes they keep making (https://link.postmedia.com/click/32204252.922/aHR0cHM6Ly9vdHRhd2FjaXRpemVuLmNvbS9mZWF0dXJlL2hvc3 BpdGFsLXNlY3JldHMtdGhlLWRlYWRseS1taXN0YWtlcy10aGV5 LWtlZXAtbWFraW5nL3djbS9kYjI2YzNiYy0xNjBmLTQ4ZTYtYm Y4Ny0wNGQwMWNkZDM4NGM/61c49cb3cab25f027f387f19Cc26963b1)

(https://ottawacitizen.com/feature/hospital-secrets-the-deadly-mistakes-they-keep-making/wcm/db26c3bc-160f-48e6-bf87-04d01cdd384c?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=OC%20Health%20Newsletter%202023-07-26&utm_term=OC_Covid19_Newsletter)


I have heard this a number if times now but have not read any documentation for it. I do not think you are correct but would really like to see the backing for the statement

[Larry Frank]

I was referring to the comment that more Sawstop users make mistakes than non Sawstop users.

I notice that you seem to have something against surgeons based your comments. I would guess that is because of your accident.

[Todd Zucker]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Mark, I do get your point. However, some of us have no formal training in woodworking and read books and articles and watch YT to learn a hobby we enjoy (which is not ideal). For us, there are sometimes unexpected events, probably because we do not know all of the proper procedures, or the risks, even if we have studied the methods in available resources. An example is EdwardÂ’s recent post of someone cross cutting a long piece on a table saw using both the fence and the miter gauge. That came from a reputable source but might have produced an unexpected result for someone who did not understand the physics. I see videos from experienced woodworkers using gloves around spinning blades, and although it looks wrong to me, I really donÂ’t know if it is improper technique. I havenÂ’t seen the video on that subject. I think the safety devices are geared toward protecting the inexperienced. If an experienced operator decides to remove a guard for the sake of efficiency, that is an informed decision, but it is nice to have the guard in place to begin with for someone who might not understand the risk.

[Mark Hennebury]

1000 pardons, my mistake. I just threw that out there. just a guess. Would be nice to have some real data, why I asked for a hand ( finger) count of jointer users, to get some facts.


I was referring to the comment that more Sawstop users make mistakes than non Sawstop users.

I notice that you seem to have something against surgeons based your comments. I would guess that is because of your accident.

[Mark Hennebury]

Todd,
My training was school shop class, books, magazines and experimenting.
In my opinion, if you want to be safe and do woodworking, spend most of your time in the shop, not on the internet.
You can learn a lot with an inquisitive mind.
Take a few different pieces of wood and really look at it, write a review of it, everything that you can list to describe it. it's weight, it's smell. it's color it's feel, how the light effects it from different angles, describe the color and texture and cell structure and distribution and the grain patterns. Describe it so that someone 1000miles away on the phone knows exactly what it is like. then do that for different woods. The chop it up and break it and bed it and split it, cut it with a sharp chisel and a dull one, cut it from every different angle and approach that you can, saw it, smash it with a hammer on different surfaces, take thin boards and wet on side, experiment, observe, ask questions, listen to the answers. you will come to know wood and how to work with it. Start with hand tools, then try to understand that power tools are and how they work with wood, look at jointers, planers and table saws etc, and try to understand how and why they work the way they do. Look for the relationship between parts and you will understand marking out, and machine setup. Don't measure, transfer. Do this and you wont need to ask what saw tooth works, you will know. Do this and you can work with precision and accuracy Do this at the beginning and you have the tools to work wood ...safely for the rest of your life.

Turn your mind around to see what's in front of your eyes, not what's in your head.

Woodworking is easy and simple, don't make it difficult.



[QUOTE=Mark Hennebury;3298356]My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Mark, I do get your point. However, some of us have no formal training in woodworking and read books and articles and watch YT to learn a hobby we enjoy (which is not ideal). For us, there are sometimes unexpected events, probably because we do not know all of the proper procedures, or the risks, even if we have studied the methods in available resources. An example is EdwardÂ’s recent post of someone cross cutting a long piece on a table saw using both the fence and the miter gauge. That came from a reputable source but might have produced an unexpected result for someone who did not understand the physics. I see videos from experienced woodworkers using gloves around spinning blades, and although it looks wrong to me, I really donÂ’t know if it is improper technique. I havenÂ’t seen the video on that subject. I think the safety devices are geared toward protecting the inexperienced. If an experienced operator decides to remove a guard for the sake of efficiency, that is an informed decision, but it is nice to have the guard in place to begin with for someone who might not understand the risk.

[Lee Schierer]

I was taught to use a table saw in school. The teacher showed us all the parts of the saw and how to use them. One important thing he taught us was to review what you were going to do standing at the saw with the saw set up to make the cut you intend to make. Then with the saw turned off, walk through the motions you would do to make the cut. Review each step for potential danger, binding, kickback, where will the cut off go, where are your hands during the process and if anything makes you unsure or appears to get body parts too close to the blade, stop and find another way to do it.

Accidents happen when we fail to take those steps and pay attention to that small voice in your head that says you might get hurt doing this. All the safety devices in the world won't stop a dumb mistake, but they can and do prevent more serious injuries.

Most videos I've watched on the internet don't talk much about safety and some out right ignore it.

[jack duren]

Here is a true story.. I worked for a small cabinet company in Buckner, Missouri called Blystone Cabinets owned by Jason Blystone. Rick Yates who worked there roughly 20 years ran into me at store. Now I had worked there for two years before and ran into Rick at the store two years later. Rick was telling me how Mike Blystone, Jason’s brother laughed at me several time after I left for being stupid enough to get my hand in the table saw. Rick informed me that Mike was ripping oak on the table saw and the board jumped up and Mike put his hand on top of the board to push it down, but was on top of the blade..


I don’t think his injury is funny,but don’t laugh at others who have been hurt..

[Thomas Pender]

Some observations:
1. When I was hearing the SawStop v. Bosch case years ago, unchallenged testimony established the table saw industry was worth about $400M per year in the US, but caused $2 Billion in injuries every year. Yikes!! I believe Bosch appreciated this and wanted to sell and market a safer job site product.
2. I found Bosch had infringed a limited number of patent claims and had not infringed at least one other - the chemical firing mechanism by Bosch did not infringe if memory serves. Both parties were represented by extremely expensive and able legal talent and they all did a great job. The hearing room, which is large, was filled with lawyers and before the hearing started I disclosed I owned many very good Bosch tools, but alas, no SawStop yet. (I bought by SawStop 3 hp PCS with the 52” table later.). I got the strong feeling Bosch wanted to win - :)
3. I liked Dr. Gass and found him to be a credible witness. His invention is close to genius (firing off of electrical potential of human bodies) and he tried to market it to others but found no realistic takers.
4. I am personally glad my PCS fired last year when I stupidly set my Incra miter in the wrong direction and it just barely nicked the blade and the brake fired and did not send it back at me. Forest fixed my blade and I bought a new brake. Let me say the cost of a new brake is a pretty good motivator to be careful.
5. Local Co-Op hardware store out here sells SawStops - all the schools in our County have them now. BTW - I got a real bargain on the delivery - they delivered the thing to my shop for free.
6. Based upon my knowledge and experience action by the CPSC is long overdue.

[Paul Koenigs]

I think this is a key point. Going back to the beginning of the story, Gass supposedly offered to license the tech to companies after he first invented it. They all said no, likely because they didn't think it added any real value in the context of selling more saws.

One of the reasons this conversation gets hashed out every 6 months is because those companies were wrong. The safety feature did offer value when put on an otherwise solid saw.

Pappa Griz said that Gass wanted a lot of money for the license. I forget the exact dollar amount, but it was excessive.
If a Griz saw plus Gass's royalty made the Griz saw at a comparable or greater expense to Sawstop, Griz would struggle to sell saws.
Point is, it's not as if Gass was only asking for a couple hundred of dollars.. it was a lot more than that.
Pappa Griz made him a counter offer. Gass said no.
So let's not pretend that Gass was being concerned about safety. It was a big money grab.

[Edwin Santos]

The SawStop story is a long, winding road.

I think what riled a lot of the woodworking community was when Gass, back in 2003 after unsuccessful attempts to license the tech to saw manufacturers, petitioned the federal government (Consumer Product Safety Commission) to mandate the technology. If that rule had been enacted, which it nearly was, every table saw sold in the US would have required the SawStop technology, or "something similar".

Keep in mind, Gass didn't hold just one patent for the SawStop blade brake, he owned a complex web of more than 60 patents which he knew how to structure since he is a patent attorney himself. Therefore, it would have been difficult if not impossible for any manufacturer to comply with the rules and do so on their own (i.e. provide something similar) without SawStop. I think the expression is "cornering the market".
In the end, due in part to an intense industry lobbying effort, the SawStop mandate never came to be, but it came quite close.

The SawStop saw is a really good product, and increased table saw safety is a worthy cause. The resentment from the woodworking community had more to do with the tactics.


EDIT: If we're getting close to the end of the SawStop patents, then depending on the enactment date, CPSC action at this time might not create a single channel monopoly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Delta has been making blade guards for their saws since the mid 1930's, CPSC was formed in 1972.

Delta were a quarter century behind.

Altendorf introduced the riving knife and crown guard in 1904

Regards, Rod

[Steve Demuth]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Four decades of work without "accident" means that someone has developed good working practice and the discipline to follow it. It doesn't mean that you have not encountered problems, but that you have been prepared and able to deal with them.

Surgeons do a few hours of surgery and think they are gods.

Furniture makers often build pieces of furniture that have hundreds of parts, tens of thousands of operations and take months to complete, every part must fit within a few thousandths of an inch. That requires planning, it requires error checking and confirmation at each step of he way to ensure that errors are not carried over to the next operation. It requires a lack of arrogance, you cant run on assumptions, you have to do each set-up to be perfect, then assume that it's not, and check and verify, and make any adjustments before moving on to the next one. That is how you get a complex job done.

I offered to teach the surgeons at my hospital after they did my surgery, because it was quite apparent that they wouldn't make it as furniture-makers.

I'm sure you're right that most injuries are due to someone doing something in way they shouldn't - often because they don't know better, sometimes because they think they're smarter than the physics of the saw, and sometimes because people do sometimes make mistakes even when they know the right way and are conscientious.

But I really don't know why any of that matters. Even if 99.9% of table saw injuries could have been avoided with more training and better attention to proper procedure, the reality is that they are still happening. If blade stopping tech can prevent 80% of those injuries from being serious, without serious impairing the use of the tool - and it's pretty clear that it can - then it's a good addition to the tool. Even if 10% of the people who use table saws are so competent and conscientious that they will never be injured in a lifetime of work, the other 90% are still at risk.

[Edward Weber]

I'm sure you're right that most injuries are due to someone doing something in way they shouldn't - often because they don't know better, sometimes because they think they're smarter than the physics of the saw, and sometimes because people do sometimes make mistakes even when they know the right way and are conscientious.

But I really don't know why any of that matters. Even if 99.9% of table saw injuries could have been avoided with more training and better attention to proper procedure, the reality is that they are still happening. If blade stopping tech can prevent 80% of those injuries from being serious, without serious impairing the use of the tool - and it's pretty clear that it can - then it's a good addition to the tool. Even if 10% of the people who use table saws are so competent and conscientious that they will never be injured in a lifetime of work, the other 90% are still at risk.
The point isn't, should there be tech to help avoid injuries.
The point is, should there only be SawStop tech on saws to avoid injuries.

SS is trying to litigate, again, still, that their tech should be the only AIM safety device.

[Mark Hennebury]

if Sawstop states that they saved 100 fingers a month and the reality is 90 of them wouldn't have happened on a regular saw, they have still saved 10, it's all good. don't have a problem with Sawstop. I am just a believer that knowledge is the best way to stay safe overall, it gives you the ability to understand what you are doing, how to plan and make the right decisions on handling materials and machining them. Human nature comes into play even with people that know, shortcuts, in a hurry etc, thinking about the next task, not the one that your on. I don't like the destructive nature of the sawstop, but it was a genius advance in tablesaw safety, the Altendorf version is very interesting, but the price is out of reach for most. The big problem still is that anyone can buy machinery anywhere without any knowledge whatsoever, tablesaws, chops saw, bandsaws, jointers, chainsaws etc. Friend of mine chopped a toe off with his lawnmower, I guess fipflops are not the recommended footwear for mowing lawns.

[Jim Becker]

The point isn't, should there be tech to help avoid injuries.
The point is, should there only be SawStop tech on saws to avoid injuries.

SS is trying to litigate, again, still, that their tech should be the only AIM safety device.
Do keep in mind that there are already other methods on the market. While they are higher end...Felder and Altendorf, for example...they are different than the SS technology and from each other. SS's method might be quicker to implement for North American style saws should the industry move forward, but we can hope there is the ability for others to innovate without having IP issues with current patents. I do agree that it would be "not a good thing" for a specific solution to be mandated.

[Edward Weber]

Do keep in mind that there are already other methods on the market. While they are higher end...Felder and Altendorf, for example...they are different than the SS technology and from each other. SS's method might be quicker to implement for North American style saws should the industry move forward, but we can hope there is the ability for others to innovate without having IP issues with current patents. I do agree that it would be "not a good thing" for a specific solution to be mandated.

T know, this is the problem.
They kept any competition from entering the market for 20 years and they're trying to keep it that way.
We will never know what other types of systems and/or the price of implementation could have been because of this.

The companies you mention are only able to develop their technology and bring it to market is because of the country they're located in and it aint here.

[Steve Demuth]

The point isn't, should there be tech to help avoid injuries.
The point is, should there only be SawStop tech on saws to avoid injuries.

SS is trying to litigate, again, still, that their tech should be the only AIM safety device.

If that's true, then they're in the wrong. But I doubt there is much to it. Sawstop's letter to the CPSC in December basically said that all the patents required to meet the CPSC's proposed rule have expired (they actually, said, "with one exception," but the exception they noted is also expired). And as I noted elsewhere, we're within a year and a few months of the date of introduction of the original PCS into the market, after which date, assuming the Sawstop meets the CPSC's rule, it's game over for patent protection blocking other manufacturers from making a saw that works close to identically to the Sawstop tech.

[Steve Demuth]

if Sawstop states that they saved 100 fingers a month and the reality is 90 of them wouldn't have happened on a regular saw, they have still saved 10, it's all good. don't have a problem with Sawstop. I am just a believer that knowledge is the best way to stay safe overall, it gives you the ability to understand what you are doing, how to plan and make the right decisions on handling materials and machining them. Human nature comes into play even with people that know, shortcuts, in a hurry etc, thinking about the next task, not the one that your on. I don't like the destructive nature of the sawstop, but it was a genius advance in tablesaw safety, the Altendorf version is very interesting, but the price is out of reach for most. The big problem still is that anyone can buy machinery anywhere without any knowledge whatsoever, tablesaws, chops saw, bandsaws, jointers, chainsaws etc. Friend of mine chopped a toe off with his lawnmower, I guess fipflops are not the recommended footwear for mowing lawns.

Got it. So we don't really disagree very much at all.

[Mark Hennebury]

Most of don't, if we understood what each of us actually meant. Lots get confused in interpretation.

[Larry Frank]

Most of don't, if we understood what each of us actually meant. Lots get confused in interpretation.

I have no idea what you meant..???? I have reread your posts and tried to figure out what you are trying to say. For example, you wrote..

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

This is your guesses. Without an analysis of accidents one cannot understand an accident. I have been in many accident investigations and it takes a lot more than guesses to understand the underlying causes. There is typically several contributing causes to an accident. How many formal accident investigations have you been involved with?

I am now no longer involved in this thread...

[Mark Hennebury]

Come on Larry, make a post like that and run for cover, what a wuss.

If you want to discuss lets discuss.

Most of the accidents that I have seen or watched videos of or read about or been involved in, most are caused by people, not catastrophic, unexpected machine failures.
They are caused by people f*cking up.

People have accidents on jointers, from hanging their fingers over that back of the wood. That's human error.
People having kickbacks on tablesaws, from not pushing the plywood all the way past the back of the blade or tipping it into the blade, human error.
People crosscuting against a rip fence , human error.

That is no guess, that is fact.

Machines rarely jump up and grab the wood, most of the time the operator sticks the wood into the saw in the wrong way, doesn't keep control of it, doesn't feed it properly.

Show me some accidents and we will do an investigation to determine the cause.

Even when ripping stock, kickback happens slowly and requires you to let it happen.
If the wood starts to close at the back of the blade, pull the wood forward and start again. or rip it on the bandsaw.
The wood doesn't instantly grab the blade and shoot back at you, that requires you to ignore what's happening and to continue when you know its wrong.

Human error, in my opinion is far more to blame for accidents than the rise of the machines.

[Doug Garson]

Even when ripping stock, kickback happens slowly and requires you to let it happen.
If the wood starts to close at the back of the blade, pull the wood forward and start again. or rip it on the bandsaw.
The wood doesn't instantly grab the blade and shoot back at you, that requires you to ignore what's happening and to continue when you know its wrong.

I agree with most of what you said in this post except this part. In my 50 odd years in this hobby, I've had a few kickbacks and I don't recall any of them happening slowly. I agree, in each case I made a mistake and there may have been some clues I missed but the kickback itself happened so fast that there was no way to react and avoid it.

[Mark Hennebury]

I agree that once it's start there there is no stopping it, it gains momentum way to fast to react.


I agree with most of what you said in this post except this part. In my 50 odd years in this hobby, I've had a few kickbacks and I don't recall any of them happening slowly. I agree, in each case I made a mistake and there may have been some clues I missed but the kickback itself happened so fast that there was no way to react and avoid it.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't have a lot to contribute here other than the idea that understanding best practice is one way to avoid accidents. I teach beginner woodworking and teach that it's important to understand best practices and avoid ignoring those practices. Mainly I agree with Mark and believe that he is making this point in that there is no substitute for application of best practice.

As example, its best to avoid sweeping dust off your machine tables when the machine is running. If you ignore that best practice then you run an exceptionally high risk.

I tend to like safety gear, but I don't rely upon it as a primary measure to prevent injury. It's good to have some redundancies, for that reason I maintain guarding and have the necessary 'oh shit' switch on every piece of equipment. I also prioritize keeping things in good working order so that you aren't running into easily avoided unexpected issues when running things.

I don't desire to work in the dark dusty past with exposed open gearing or belts, but I also don't feel the need to have government continuously apply its force to everything. As example, the EU has banned the use of dado blades, yet I've used them for years. I'm not sure how they are more dangerous than a grooving tool. There needs to be a better balance struck here as they're often delving into the land of the arbitrary or where consumer choices will guide the path.

[Rich Engelhardt]

As I understand it - it isn't the dado blade itself that's banned - it's the requirement that the blade on a table saw come to a stop in so many seconds that makes it close to impossible o achieve if a dado blade's added mass is involved.

Anyhow - IMHO, somebody nailed it earlier. It isn't so much the technology as much as it's the mandate that gets people riled up.

[Bill Howatt]

... It isn't so much the technology as much as it's the mandate that gets people riled up.

Nothing like being, "Dead right" .

[Edward Weber]

If that's true, then they're in the wrong. But I doubt there is much to it. Sawstop's letter to the CPSC in December basically said that all the patents required to meet the CPSC's proposed rule have expired (they actually, said, "with one exception," but the exception they noted is also expired). And as I noted elsewhere, we're within a year and a few months of the date of introduction of the original PCS into the market, after which date, assuming the Sawstop meets the CPSC's rule, it's game over for patent protection blocking other manufacturers from making a saw that works close to identically to the Sawstop tech.

My "prediction" is that SS will continue to fight tooth and nail.
Not only do they regularly clash with the trade groups and the CPSC, they also bring suits against them.
After having their antitrust case against some other saw makers was dismissed, they didn't miss a beat.
About a year and a half ago they appealed the court for extensions. https://cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions-orders/21-1537.OPINION.9-14-2022_2003622.pdf
This is not the action of going away quietly

While any number of injuries is too many. according to the CPSC's own data, in 2021, out of every 10,000 tablesaws in use, there is an estimate of 29.9 blade contact injuries.
That being said, trying to lobby to get your technology to become standardized accross the industry, is an uphill battle when you're talking about .3%.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws

[Jim Becker]

The companies you mention are only able to develop their technology and bring it to market is because of the country they're located in and it aint here.
I don't follow Altendorf, but Felder is most certainly actively marketing their machine with their solution here, AFAIK. 'Costs a bundle, however, because it's only on the top-of-the-line saw.

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't have a lot to contribute here other than the idea that understanding best practice is one way to avoid accidents. I teach beginner woodworking and teach that it's important to understand best practices and avoid ignoring those practices. Mainly I agree with Mark and believe that he is making this point in that there is no substitute for application of best practice.

As example, its best to avoid sweeping dust off your machine tables when the machine is running. If you ignore that best practice then you run an exceptionally high risk.

I tend to like safety gear, but I don't rely upon it as a primary measure to prevent injury. It's good to have some redundancies, for that reason I maintain guarding and have the necessary 'oh shit' switch on every piece of equipment. I also prioritize keeping things in good working order so that you aren't running into easily avoided unexpected issues when running things.

I don't desire to work in the dark dusty past with exposed open gearing or belts, but I also don't feel the need to have government continuously apply its force to everything. As example, the EU has banned the use of dado blades, yet I've used them for years. I'm not sure how they are more dangerous than a grooving tool. There needs to be a better balance struck here as they're often delving into the land of the arbitrary or where consumer choices will guide the path.

My understanding is that saw blades in the EU have to be guarded in use and blade braking has to occur in 10 seconds or less, regardless of blade mass.

Dado cutters aren’t banned in the EU, they’re just not as common as they are here.

Regards, Rod

[Alan Lightstone]

My understanding is that saw blades in the EU have to be guarded in use and blade braking has to occur in 10 seconds or less, regardless of blade mass.

Dado cutters aren’t banned in the EU, they’re just not as common as they are here.

Regards, Rod
I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE) (https://taytools.com/products/copy-of-cmt-orange-8-precision-dado-blade-set-12-teeth-ftg-atb-grind-0-125-kerf-230-012-08?_pos=10&_sid=385029468&_ss=r)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

[Justin Rapp]

I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE) (https://taytools.com/products/copy-of-cmt-orange-8-precision-dado-blade-set-12-teeth-ftg-atb-grind-0-125-kerf-230-012-08?_pos=10&_sid=385029468&_ss=r)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

The interesting thing about that dado nut from woodpecker is it's actually just not needed, at least on sawstop based on the owners manual. The purpose of the washer is mostly to help give the blade stability, but when you stack blades, especially a dado where you have 2+ chippers sandwiched between the primary blades, you already have stability. It's the reverse process where you add a blade stabilizer plate on a thin kerf blade. The entire sawstop community, and I suspect other saw brand users have been using dado blades for years without the need for this washer/nut from woodpecker.

As much as I am a fan of most woodpecker tools and devices, this one isn't getting added to future woodpecker orders.

[Lee Schierer]

I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE) (https://taytools.com/products/copy-of-cmt-orange-8-precision-dado-blade-set-12-teeth-ftg-atb-grind-0-125-kerf-230-012-08?_pos=10&_sid=385029468&_ss=r)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

From the photo on their ad it shows that they have removed a lot of weight from the blades and the chippers. The reduced mass would cause the set to stop spinning much quicker.
514972

[Doug Garson]

This video explains why the new CMT is approved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGdbK22Y56g

[Jerome Stanek]

I agree with most of what you said in this post except this part. In my 50 odd years in this hobby, I've had a few kickbacks and I don't recall any of them happening slowly. I agree, in each case I made a mistake and there may have been some clues I missed but the kickback itself happened so fast that there was no way to react and avoid it.

And the Saw Stop will not do anything about this. Shop I used to work at has 2 Saw Stops and they still have kick backs

[Warren Lake]

the sawstop might not stop the kick back but if the kick back pulls the owner back into the blade then its done its job. Likely be good to define kick backs. Some stuff will load up with warning and fight you. Other stuff bang blazing fast.

Ripping material on a saw and having it load it may tension release and start to push back but you get lots of warning, odd time a crack and it splits. I dont consider those rips of long material kick backs. Past mostly just lifted off when I hear it starting to load up then back in.

They taught us to joint an edge before rough rip but enough times saved time skipped that step and just did the rough rip crown side to the fence guesstimating change from ripping.

[Larry Frank]

I often hear the argument that the Sawstop will not stop kickbacks. I completely agree and using a riving knife is a great idea.

I have looked at the Sawstop ads and literature and nowhere did I find anything that says it prevents kickbacks. However, if your hand gets knocked into the blade, it will greatly minimize any blade contact injury.

[Brian Holcombe]

Interesting detail about the EU rule. I use an Amana tool stack that has each blade the full diameter rather than those small winged types. The winged type has given me pause for that reason.

[David Dille]

Ha, first time poster here.

I basically got run off from LUMBERJOCKS forum for posting a link to that really well done and non-bias video. Pounded on by the few SawStop owners. I felt so bad about it, I talked to my wife, who is much more distanced from woodworking than I. She said that it sounded like SawStop might be sponsoring the forum, under the table, after she read some of the comments sent my way. I won’t make the same mistake on this forum.

I certainly agree with you. Sawstop saws, I’ve used one and really checked them out at the Woodcraft store, are nice saws but no better than the others like Harvey, Grizzly, Bailey, Laguna or Powermatic, they just have much better PR and appear to use scare tactics to sell their saws.

[David Dille]

I do whitewater rafting and have done, so for years. Close calls and even a couple of deaths on the rivers. I don’t think anyone is arguing that an additional safety device might not be a good thing BUT it’s not the end all solution. The end all solution in the wood shop would to not ever be in the wood shop. One device that may save some one’s fingers on one tool is not going to make a significant difference to the entire population. If you had to spend an extra $1500 on each and every tool that you could injure yourself with, including sharp chisels, could you even afford to have a wood shop? It wouldn’t be worth it to me. I’ve never worked in a commercial wood shop but have spent 25+ in high tech manufacturing, working for companies that had extremely rigid safety processes and every safety add on for tools that you can imagine. Workers still got hurt and killed. Technologies failed, people had a moment of distraction or complacency and bang! Firearms, vehicles, sports, ladders, roofs, trees, water, weather and yes tools, will all kill or maim. You can’t fix stupid and what a horrible, boring world to live in where you’re mandated to just end up sitting on you mandatorily safe couch that you had to buy from the one and only one company because the other companies couldn’t provide a couch that was as safe as theirs. Yes, that’s a really stupid statement to think that would ever happen but that is exactly what SawStop wants to do, force you to buy their product through mandated legislation. THIS is my only objection to SawStop. This discussion is not about whether putting a safety feature on a saw is good, bad or indifferent, it’s about having a choice. If SawStop gets it’s way, even SawStop owners will be affected in their pocketbook because we all know what happens when you can only buy from one company. Will they be successful? I don’t know but for myself, I don’t want to support a company that is trying to take away my ability to make that decision. Would it be a tragedy in my life, no. I would just sell my tools and move onto some other hobby. My point to this is that we should all have a choice, that’s why there are anti trust laws. It’s not about safety, so let’s quit arguing safety. Some hard core SawStop owners want you to think it is about safety, nope, it’s about being able to make a choice for yourself. If Bosch could have continued their injury mitigation device, I would buy it and install it on my saw. They didn’t because ONE of their devices, the one that drops the blade, was too close to the SawStop patent, not identical, but close enough that they spent 4 years in court before bagging it. Sawstop doesn’t care about your safety, just forcing you to buy their saw. Their market share continues to decrease because people are making a choice to buy other saws. Other, or the same hard core owners say, wait until it happens, then I’ll believe. Well, it will be too late then, won’t it?

Sorry for my ramble but it's not about safety and I’m tired of SawStop die hards turning it toward that. It’s about freedom of choice.

[Tom Trees]

Forgetting about the crown guard, which is a must, for the minute....
but do they sell a sliding fence attachment for those Sawstops,
or have they figured that they could sell more saws, by folks having a fright getting kickbacks?

Not to take away from the brand, as at least they have a "true" riving knife, which is a must also, obviously.
Be interested to see if they, or anyone makes the necessary attachment for the fence, another must have
which also provides the low profile setting for use with crown guard.

Be a nice earner for a business to provide such a fence, if not.
i.e by UK HSE requirements, as Roy demonstrates below...
All these things, along with a pair of 450mm long push sticks being absolutely necessary across the pond.

Here's the fence I mentioned
515648
And not forgetting you folks overseas like to use your saws for grooving, which requires Shaw guards also
515649

Not seen anyone doing this on those machines, though presumably at least on some of the Sawstops,
one has an option to tap holes into the fence?

If not possible, then they should revise their fence design.

I've recently posted 20 links from a UK forum, which is a whole lot more info than you'd find elsewhere,
should one be "on the fence" regarding safe use, of even a Sawstop, or indeed other machine, which comes with a real riving knife, that is.
No exceptions regarding safety, no matter how fond of those dangerous vintage machines some might be, (we never had such neglectful designs here)

All the best
Tom

[mike stenson]

I haven't seen a sliding fence offered by an American company since the Unifence, which isn't marketed anymore. It's a shame, I really do like mine.

[David Dille]

Respectfully. I don’t know of any private shop that could afford their $10,000+ add on. Just not apples to apples.

[Scott Graham]

I’ve found that most “accidents” are caused by preventable errors/actions. I operate a motorcycle, sometimes without a helmet. I know the risk and I’m glad the decision is mine to make. As far as table saws, most injuries are from kickbacks and most kickbacks are from operator error. Not saying the SawStop technology is a bad thing just that it should be the operator’s choice. That being said, I just ordered a 4 hp Alpha Table Saw from Harvey and look forward to many years of safe operation.

[Larry Frank]

We hear so many things on these threads. It is often repeated that kickbacks cause most injuries. I have searched online and can not find data to support this. If someone has data or source for kickback injuries, I would be very interested.

[Edward Weber]

We hear so many things on these threads. It is often repeated that kickbacks cause most injuries. I have searched online and can not find data to support this. If someone has data or source for kickback injuries, I would be very interested.

Larry, I've read that many places list the cause of the injury as kickback but the actual injury itself is a laceration of some type. This may be where some of the confusion stars.

[David Dille]

Bosch is out because of SawStops litigation. The other two, which are hard to pronounce and harder to write, are not logical for anything but large commercial shops because of their size and enormous cost.

[Patrick Varley]

Bosch is out because of SawStops litigation. The other two, which are hard to pronounce and harder to write, are not logical for anything but large commercial shops because of their size and enormous cost.

This isn't completely accurate. It has since been reported that Bosch was offered a deal to license the technology and reintroduce their saw in the US. They chose not to do so. The likely explanation is because they decided they couldn't price the saw competetively when licensing the technology.

And phrasing it as "because of litigation" is a fairly inflammatory way of saying "because they were protecting their IP". If protecting IP isn't important anymore, then let's spin up all the offshore shops to steal a whole bunch of other things and bring them back at a bargain.

[Mark Hennebury]

There are a few others.




https://youtube.com/shorts/oAlDjWvEfac?si=Hm77H_q4vmrtq8z4

[Mark Hennebury]

Bandsaw blade stop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhjxKxaM-6k

[Mark Hennebury]

another bandsaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKPONhQUrmU

[Roger Feeley]

Eaward,

My wife gave me a SS ICS for Christmas about ten years ago because I wanted one. I’ve had three table saws in my life.
— a black and decker direct drive. A really bad saw. I made a fence for it, turning it into just a bad saw. It never had any guard, riving knife. I was probably 25.
— a powermatic 63 contractors saw. It came with a nice Vega fence and I added a uniguard. I was around 35
— Sawstop ICS. Muuuch better. At almost 60, I knew this was very likely the last saw I would ever own so I got the industrial.

[David Dille]

Well I wasn’t there like you were so I have to go on second hand information. I bow to first hand knowledge.

Again, people continue to miss the issue. It’s not that SawStop wants to withhold their patented device that is their only real way to compete with other table saw manufacturers.

[John Newell]

Aren't you missing some finger parts?

I've known people with well over 25 years of experience end up missing them suddenly.

This thread is funny at this point.

65 YO here, and have been working on and around machinery since at least my age reached two digits. A few thoughts...

Someone said far above that most injuries involve carelessness or violating safety protocols. Yeah, I suppose that 100% of injuries not attributable to a machinery defect or failure are in that category, but IMO that's not a helpful observation. There are cases of doing stupid, sorry, high-risk things on purpose (like the story two posts above), but there are also accidents. Even the smartest, most experienced person makes mistakes, and some of these need no more than a fraction of a second of inattention. Anything that's motor-driven can cause a serious injury. It doesn't even need to have a cutting device mounted. I have a few fairly serious finger injuries from working on vehicles.

I don't own a SawStop, though I probably should. I'd actually be interested in seeing a similar idea for machines like table-mounted routers and jointers, but I have no idea how you'd engineer that. Anyway, it seems to me that the economics of a SawStop purchase are a no-brainer. Ignore the many practical life issues that can result from a table saw accident and focus just on the economics. Even with decent insurance, many people could probably justify purchase of a SawStop based on nothing more than the cost of hospital, doctor and physical therapist bills that result from a table saw injury. So why don't we all own SawStop saws? Because we think we're smart enough and experienced enough that we won't have accidents with our machines. I've had one flesh vs. blade accident with a table saw (thankfully not as serious as it should have been) and one with a table-mounted router, which took part of a finger joint clean off, which has had consequences that will never go away.

The guy who does 731 Woodworking on YouTube did a second video in which he reads extensively from materials posted on the CPSC website in the area for comments on the proposed rule making. Two things really stood out. First, one of the patents that's probably necessary to use the SawStop tech doesn't expire until 2030-something, so waiting a few years or providing for an extended compliance date wouldn't solve that problem, at least not any time soon. Second, based on statements made by SawStop representatives on the CPSC website, SawStop appears to have changed its mind about licensing, at least voluntarily. Put those two together and it seems that it should be very difficult for the CPSC to adopt rules requiring SawStop tech in other manufacturers' saws - and we can be fairly certain that the patents were written up in such a way that it has been essentially impossible to design around those patents.

At the end of the day, all we can do is wait and see what the CPSC will do. I should mention that it has become fairly common to litigate the adoption of rules by federal commissions and agencies, and a reasonable number of these are successful in partially or entirely overturning rules adopted by federal commissions and agencies, so even if the CPSC proceeds to adoption of final rules, it's not clear that they will ever become effecctive.

[Edward Weber]

Second, based on statements made by SawStop representatives on the CPSC website, SawStop appears to have changed its mind about licensing, at least voluntarily. Put those two together and it seems that it should be very difficult for the CPSC to adopt rules requiring SawStop tech in other manufacturers' saws - and we can be fairly certain that the patents were written up in such a way that it has been essentially impossible to design around those patents.



As I understand it, yes, SS did change their stance on licensing.
IMO, They changed their position so they could state for the record, that they offered the technology and no one wanted it. This way they can claim that they're not a monopoly at all, the others are just singling them out.
They've not changed their tune in 20 years. Everyone else is ganging up on them and theirs is the best technology. Small problem is that there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Mike Henderson]

The meat industry has been using bandsaws with a blade stop technology for quite a while. To my knowledge, the saws are expensive and require that you wear a certain color of glove. That works fine for the meat industry because they always use gloves when cutting meat, and the cost of an accident is very high.

It allows the cutters to work faster, also, improving productivity.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

I haven't seen a sliding fence offered by an American company since the Unifence, which isn't marketed anymore. It's a shame, I really do like mine.

I agree Mike, I have a four function saw fence also and love it…….Regards, Rod

[Ray Newman]

Rod Sheridan: I ran a 3HP Uni-saw with a Uni-fence from 1987-2016. Wish that when I sold the saw, I retained the Uni-fence and the Uni-T-fence. The hi-lo fence position and the ease of adjusting the fence was excellent. I wish such a fence was available for my Sawstop ICS.

https://www.ptreeusa.com/tablesaw_unifence.html

If SawStop would clone the Uni-fence, I think it would be a good seller.

[Jim Becker]

Rod Sheridan: I ran a 3HP Uni-saw with a Uni-fence from 1987-2016. Wish that when I sold the saw, I retained the Uni-fence and the Uni-T-fence. The hi-lo fence position and the ease of adjust the fence was excellent. I wish such a fence was available for my Sawstop ICS.

https://www.ptreeusa.com/tablesaw_unifence.html

If SawStop would clone the Uni-fence, I think it would be a good seller.
You will find that Euro machines are typically high/low. And it's not something I'd be willing to give up myself. Being back with a typical Tee-Square fence on the PCS I used temporarily while my shop was going up made me truly miss the high/low configuration, especially since I tend to run it in the low position a lot of the time.

[Marc Fenneuff]

I agree Mike, I have a four function saw fence also and love it…….Regards, Rod

Very Super Cool Tools sells a T-square fence that uses an aluminum extrusion. I have one and use it almost exclusively in the low position.

[mike stenson]

Very Super Cool Tools sells a T-square fence that uses an aluminum extrusion. I have one and use it almost exclusively in the low position.

That's good to know, I'll have to check it out. There have been a few people that have used my fence that have been disappointed to know they're discontinued.

[Norman Pirollo]

I developed an anti-kickback system for table saws a few years back. Incorporated it into a small shop-made tablesaw to demonstrate the concept. After several design iterations and refining I had it working. The system can be adapted to any saw with electronic dynamic blade brake. The Saw Stop table saw or the newer table saws would not need much to incorporate the system. I too feel that kickback is as much a problem as "fingers in the blade". Having experienced kickback, I was determined to understand it and find a solution. I have a video of the AKS (anti-kickback system) in operation with high density foam as the material being sawn. The test bed shop-made saw allows me to turn the AKS system off and on for proof of concept. The "brake" light shows when the AKS system is triggered.

https://youtu.be/oHlJNb86gLM?si=1ug-j4UHAPV73NBw

[Mike Henderson]

I developed an anti-kickback system for table saws a few years back. Incorporated it into a small shop-made tablesaw to demonstrate the concept. After several design iterations and refining I had it working. The system can be adapted to any saw with electronic dynamic blade brake. The Saw Stop table saw or the newer table saws would not need much to incorporate the system. I too feel that kickback is as much a problem as "fingers in the blade". Having experienced kickback, I was determined to understand it and find a solution. I have a video of the AKS (anti-kickback system) in operation with high density foam as the material being sawn. The test bed shop-made saw allows me to turn the AKS system off and on for proof of concept. The "brake" light shows when the AKS system is triggered.

https://youtu.be/oHlJNb86gLM?si=1ug-j4UHAPV73NBw

How is a potential kickback detected?

MIke

[Norman Pirollo]

How is a potential kickback detected?

MIke

The AKS system is proprietary at the moment..

Norman

[Warren Lake]

looks like a saw that loads up and shuts off when the load increases. how would I get any work done? I used to stall 3 HP saws at times ramming rough solid wood through. We were taught to joint an edge before rough ripping but in use over the years enough times I skipped the step. Tension release alone on rough ripping will load up a saw, at least me not running a riving knife which would help on the pinching.

A saw loading up ripping is not a kick back, its a saw loading up. You have lots of warning. I stalled pushing too much but 99 percent of the time just lifted off and back in. Nothing to do with material into the heal of the blade. You see many people are afraid of their saw. Me stalling my saw while a moron way from pushing things its still not coming back at me, im telling that saw that. I doubt the 9 HP saw would let me do that.

there are so many ignorant people on table saws.

[Norman Pirollo]

looks like a saw that loads up and shuts off when the load increases. how would I get any work done? I used to stall 3 HP saws at times ramming rough solid wood through. We were taught to joint an edge before rough ripping but in use over the years enough times I skipped the step. Tension release alone on rough ripping will load up a saw, at least me not running a riving knife which would help on the pinching.

A saw loading up ripping is not a kick back, its a saw loading up. You have lots of warning. I stalled pushing too much but 99 percent of the time just lifted off and back in. Nothing to do with material into the heal of the blade. You see many people are afraid of their saw. Me stalling my saw while a moron way from pushing things its still not coming back at me, im telling that saw that. I doubt the 9 HP saw would let me do that.

there are so many ignorant people on table saws.

Not how this AKS works. Nothing to do with loading up the saw, the slowing motor is just the result of a small motor to demonstrate how it works.. It works on a different premise. I agree, I wouldn't want the saw to stop while I was ripping, although I've seen this is underpowered saws.. The AKS detects kickback exclusively. The saw blade runs at it's normal full speed and is dynamically braked only when AKS is detected. There is no intermediary slowing of the blade.. full on or full off.

[Warren Lake]

thanks for explaining. Not a thing for me but like saw stop ive said enough times to people it would be good for them.

If I had an employee id want a saw stop to not worry. That was even before a friend told me he came into work and blood was all over, even the ceiling. I would not want to live with that scenario. If I had ever hired any of the old guys I was good friends with id not have a concern to see the same bare blade I saw for 30 years in their shops. Why is it that working sometimes extreme hours and pressure they all had their fingers.
.......................

Put your material at the back of the blade. Put it into the heal of the blade and see what it does. My first kick back knocked me to the floor and could have left me with a soprano voice. It came from the heal of the blade not the front. Material loading up in rip situation I would not call a kick back its a saw loading up. Reality many of saws people use here are toys and you can stall them. Ridgid this or that whatever. Ive used carpenter saws on site before and not want to work on any of them. Work is work its not being limited by a tiny light weight machine in feeding.

We are kind of the past the kick back thing in some ways, riving knife we would not be having this conversation,. Ive worked without one forever then had one for the last job. I felt like I was cheating and it was too easy but its good to have help when it doesnt interfere. It brings a bit of a sense of security, I dont need it but I get it and its a positive thing so ill dabble more for sure.

[jack duren]

There is no false of security with a Sawstop.. I don’t know where people came up with that..

I used a Sawstop for 7 years and never once had a “false “ sense of security., I knew two things operating it. The saw was black and the blade was sharp..

[Warren Lake]

if you mean me the security would be for me if I had an employee, that was what I was trying to say.

I dont need to worry about more people, my hair is white already.

The old guys I would not worry about.

[Warren Lake]

Here is an example 1 of 100's. Content creator. Not sure if they are content or not but I dont get content watching them. Sure i come off as a know it all but im old enough to know no one does. Its easy to criticize someone else Same would be for me for lack of safety stuff.

515825

The yellow thing signals no feel to me. We never had it, its not needed. Boards are different widths in the real work and and. He thinks hes smart standing out of the line of fire hes standing 45 degrees to what is is doing when he should be behind the saw maybe not directly, you try and stay left and that depends on material width and feeding. His push stick sucks. Many use that style never tried it but his hand is too close once getting beside or past the blade, his left is in a stupid position. Behind the blade and no riving knife and something happens he will in the blade.

[Edward Weber]

There is no false of security with a Sawstop.. I don’t know where people came up with that..

I used a Sawstop for 7 years and never once had a “false “ sense of security., I knew two things operating it. The saw was black and the blade was sharp..

Maybe not for you but for other's there most certainly is. Just watch those who use one and are fast and loose with their safety regime.

[Michael Burnside]

Maybe not for you but for other's there most certainly is. Just watch those who use one and are fast and loose with their safety regime.

Nonsense, pure and simple. Stop making generalizations about people that own a particular type of saw. It says more about you than anyone else. Sorry, but this kind of generalization is just too much.

The same can be said for the majority of us who drive. Do we drive like an idiot because we have an airbag, crumple zones and seatbelt? Or we you drive like an idiot because, well, we're an idiot? Most of us just drive, doing everything we can to be safe, never thinking about what may or may not protect us. You can't fix stupid, not even SawStop...

[Warren Lake]

take some thought to answer that for me, I have two cars with no air bags, do drive them any different no. Do I drive the ones with air bags different no. I remember once years ago a lady was bumped from behind in traffic and the air bag killed her. That sucks when the safety device takes you out, has happened with self driving cars as well. Better if it had not been there in the first place for those people.

[Mark Hennebury]

Would you object to a guess?


Not how this AKS works. Nothing to do with loading up the saw, the slowing motor is just the result of a small motor to demonstrate how it works.. It works on a different premise. I agree, I wouldn't want the saw to stop while I was ripping, although I've seen this is underpowered saws.. The AKS detects kickback exclusively. The saw blade runs at it's normal full speed and is dynamically braked only when AKS is detected. There is no intermediary slowing of the blade.. full on or full off.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jim, the problem is fairly simple to solve.

1) use a riving knife, properly adjusted so that workpieces cannot touch the rear of the blade (kickback)

2) always use a crown or overhead guard to prevent workpieces from contacting the top of the blade (kickback and finger protection)

3) when ripping solid wood use an adjustable length fence that ends just past the beginning of the blade

How many people actually follow the rules?

An active safety system enhances the above, it’s not a substitute for the above.

Regards, Rod

[Edward Weber]

Nonsense, pure and simple. Stop making generalizations about people that own a particular type of saw. It says more about you than anyone else. Sorry, but this kind of generalization is just too much.

The same can be said for the majority of us who drive. Do we drive like an idiot because we have an airbag, crumple zones and seatbelt? Or we you drive like an idiot because, well, we're an idiot? Most of us just drive, doing everything we can to be safe, never thinking about what may or may not protect us. You can't fix stupid, not even SawStop...

Did you buy your car because it had those features?
Did many people buy a Saw Stop because it has that feature?

Those who own a SS also generalize about those who don't and often get quite upset.

[Mike Henderson]

Did you buy your car because it had those features?
Did many people buy a Saw Stop because it has that feature?

Those who own a SS also generalize about those who don't and often get quite upset.

I absolutely bought my SawStop because of the brake. Didn't even consider any other brand.

Mike

[Alan Lightstone]

I absolutely bought my SawStop because of the brake. Didn't even consider any other brand.

Mike
As did I. And, I would think, many others.

[Michael Burnside]

Did you buy your car because it had those features?
Did many people buy a Saw Stop because it has that feature?

Those who own a SS also generalize about those who don't and often get quite upset.

I 100% bought my SS because it had the safety feature. I also buy my vehicles based on their safety ratings not just based on what I like, what color it is or just reliability.

My only issue was the generalizing comment, not whether or not you'd make the same decision as me. Personally I don't care if someone buys that brand or believes what it offers is of any value.

[Edward Weber]

For you guys who I assume know better, that's great. You're not changing your habits because of the brake. (last line of defense)
The YT content creator crowd, who does not know better, may look at it differently. (first line of defense)
While not trying to sound old, you can tell if someone knows how to use tools safely or not.

[Doug Garson]

Here is an example 1 of 100's. Content creator. Not sure if they are content or not but I dont get content watching them. Sure i come off as a know it all but im old enough to know no one does. Its easy to criticize someone else Same would be for me for lack of safety stuff.

515825

The yellow thing signals no feel to me. We never had it, its not needed. Boards are different widths in the real work and and. He thinks hes smart standing out of the line of fire hes standing 45 degrees to what is is doing when he should be behind the saw maybe not directly, you try and stay left and that depends on material width and feeding. His push stick sucks. Many use that style never tried it but his hand is too close once getting beside or past the blade, his left is in a stupid position. Behind the blade and no riving knife and something happens he will in the blade.

While I agree with your comment on his awkward body position and the position of his left hand is a definite no no but I see nothing wrong with his push stick or using a featherboard to force the board against the fence and if you look a little closer he does have a riving knife, it's the blade guard he is missing.

[Carroll Courtney]

They’re not taking my PM 66 till they pry my cold finger off start button. Let this poor horse lay down

[mike stenson]

They’re not taking my PM 66 till they pry my cold finger off start button. Let this poor horse lay down

So now they're confiscating old saws? This is heading into conspiracy theory territory ;)

[Patrick Varley]

Maybe not for you but for other's there most certainly is. Just watch those who use one and are fast and loose with their safety regime.

Being fast and loose with a safety regime is not limited to SawStop owners. The idea that SawStop owners are more likely to adopt practices which are less safe is all conjecture. The fact that it happens with content creators is correlation, not causation. SawStop is a prevalent brand among that group, so any baseline lack of safety appears to be associated even though they'd be unsafe with other saws too. There's plenty of content out there demonstrating lax safety standards, independent of whether it involves a SawStop.

[Michael Burnside]

They’re not taking my PM 66 till they pry my cold finger off start button. Let this poor horse lay down

If PM made a SS equivalent, I'd switch just for the color :D

[Edward Weber]

Being fast and loose with a safety regime is not limited to SawStop owners. The idea that SawStop owners are more likely to adopt practices which are less safe is all conjecture. The fact that it happens with content creators is correlation, not causation. SawStop is a prevalent brand among that group, so any baseline lack of safety appears to be associated even though they'd be unsafe with other saws too. There's plenty of content out there demonstrating lax safety standards, independent of whether it involves a SawStop.

For the last time, hopefully.
SOME SS owners feel as if they can't get hurt because they bought a SS. With this as their default position, they often do not take the care others would.

You are right that many of the CC community use SS machines, I wonder why. Is it because they often have little, if any training of any kind using power tools, better safe than sorry I suppose.

And yes, I agree, they probably would be just as lax on safety using standard saws. This MAY be because they've not been around enough to experience anything else other than a SS.
"you mean your saw doesn't stop automatically??" to be heard in the not too distant future.
Repeating myself, again. Having a SS should in no way change any aspect of your working method. For some it seems it might.
As I've stated, many of these people don't know any better, which IMO is the causation.

[jack duren]

Does wearing a seatbelt make you drive fast? Do you think about it while you’re driving? Same with Sawstop, it’s just there..

200 hundred post later and y’all still talking about the same things. Nothing has changed. Nothing new to talk about. Yet….. still posting on the same old stuff

[Patrick Varley]

For the last time, hopefully.
SOME SS owners feel as if they can't get hurt because they bought a SS. With this as their default position, they often do not take the care others would.

You are right that many of the CC community use SS machines, I wonder why. Is it because they often have little, if any training of any kind using power tools, better safe than sorry I suppose.

And yes, I agree, they probably would be just as lax on safety using standard saws. This MAY be because they've not been around enough to experience anything else other than a SS.
"you mean your saw doesn't stop automatically??" to be heard in the not too distant future.
Repeating myself, again. Having a SS should in no way change any aspect of your working method. For some it seems it might.
As I've stated, many of these people don't know any better, which IMO is the causation.

I still don't get it. This whole line of reasoning seems to be based on supposition and assumptions. Not to mention a baked-in implication that experienced people who use saws other than SawStops inherently know better and always take appropriate safety measures, which is demonstrably false.

I've literally never heard someone with SawStop claim they can "never" get hurt. They do, however, believe that they are less likely to be significantly injured if blade contact happens. Which is accurate.

And my other counter argument would be that a novice with little knowledge of tools is unlikely to spend the money to buy a SawStop. I could just as easily suggest that people who are willing to pay a price premium for a SawStop are more safety conscious.

[Mark Hennebury]

It should be real easy to get some real data, ask! who has the most accidents, sawstop owner's or non-sawstop owners?

[Edward Weber]

https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Unintended Consequences Of The SawStop Technology

Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there is likely to be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety.



(https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws)

[Bill Howatt]

I don't totally buy the experience argument, I've read too many posts that start with something like, "I've been doing this for over XX years without incident but today I .....".
Human brains have a habit of losing focus.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Unintended Consequences Of The SawStop Technology



Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.


(https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws)

Nearly 100% of SawStop blade contact incidents get reported; they need a new cartridge. Not so with a minor injury from a regular table saw.

[Justin Rapp]

If PM made a SS equivalent, I'd switch just for the color :D

Funny - the reason I have not bought a single PM tools is because of the color. :) <joke>

[Justin Rapp]

https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Unintended Consequences Of The SawStop Technology



Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there is likely to be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety.



(https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws)


At the woodworking show, SawStop's backdrop still shows the 'a table saw incident occurs every 9 minutes'. I asked the rep about this, since it's been the same sign for maybe 15 years. He said that Sawstop has sold about 250,000 machines so far and it's barely put a dent in the number of machines out there. Also considering if the incident was to still occur using a Sawstop, the number of incidents won't change, the the severity of the incident. A little cut vs a devastating injury. The actual number of incidents won't change.

[Cameron Wood]

I 100% bought my SS because it had the safety feature. I also buy my vehicles based on their safety ratings not just based on what I like, what color it is or just reliability.

My only issue was the generalizing comment, not whether or not you'd make the same decision as me. Personally I don't care if someone buys that brand or believes what it offers is of any value.



Black cars have the highest accident rate.

[Rick Potter]

I wonder how many of those blade contacts were from hitting the miter gage or a nail? They would be "blade contacts" reported to SS, but no injuries involved.

[Ronald Blue]

I wonder how many of those blade contacts were from hitting the miter gage or a nail? They would be "blade contacts" reported to SS, but no injuries involved.

I'm in a SawStop FB group and probably 8 out of 10 posted activations are miter gage, tape measure, or sometimes an unknown. How SawStop uses that data is unknown but we can guess they probably claim them all as saves even if it saved your miter gage or tape measure.
Take this articale for what it's worth but apparently at least Grizzly made a couple attempts to license the technology over the years and SawStop wasn't interested.

Companies Allege SawStop Refused to License Safety Tech (toolguyd.com) (https://toolguyd.com/companies-allege-sawstop-refused-to-license-safety-tech/?fbclid=IwAR0_-dtq12KrZvAyKJ0iDTKZVO3Wx6Mj_QIcw9KJXERYLKq_fWIqcqP 5H-4)

[Edward Weber]

I'm in a SawStop FB group and probably 8 out of 10 posted activations are miter gage, tape measure, or sometimes an unknown. How SawStop uses that data is unknown but we can guess they probably claim them all as saves even if it saved your miter gage or tape measure.
Take this articale for what it's worth but apparently at least Grizzly made a couple attempts to license the technology over the years and SawStop wasn't interested.

Companies Allege SawStop Refused to License Safety Tech (toolguyd.com) (https://toolguyd.com/companies-allege-sawstop-refused-to-license-safety-tech/?fbclid=IwAR0_-dtq12KrZvAyKJ0iDTKZVO3Wx6Mj_QIcw9KJXERYLKq_fWIqcqP 5H-4)

Thanks for that link, very informative reading.
This paragraph from SBD is what I've been saying all along


If SawStop and TTS are seeking to improve safety by making AIMT broadly available to consumers, they will make a FRAND commitment. If they continue to refuse to make a FRAND commitment, however, the truth about their motives will be clear—SawStop and its parent, TTS, are seeking to use a CPSC mandate to extract royalties that are not fair, not reasonable, and not nondiscriminatory. The Commission should not allow SawStop and TTS to hijack its authority in order to line SawStop’s and TTS’s own pockets at the expense of consumers and competition. The Commission should instead require SawStop and TTS to make a FRAND commitment before mandating AIMT.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for that link, very informative reading.
This paragraph from SBD is what I've been saying all along


If SawStop and TTS are seeking to improve safety by making AIMT broadly available to consumers, they will make a FRAND commitment. If they continue to refuse to make a FRAND commitment, however, the truth about their motives will be clear—SawStop and its parent, TTS, are seeking to use a CPSC mandate to extract royalties that are not fair, not reasonable, and not nondiscriminatory. The Commission should not allow SawStop and TTS to hijack its authority in order to line SawStop’s and TTS’s own pockets at the expense of consumers and competition. The Commission should instead require SawStop and TTS to make a FRAND commitment before mandating AIMT.

I don't have the dates, but I think all of the SawStop patents are just about expired. And, by law, you cannot do a patent licensing deal that extends past the expiration date of the patent.

So, let's say that a patent has one year to run, and a company wants to license it from the owner. The owner might say, "I'll license you with the provision that you continue to pay me a reduced fee after the patent expires." Can't do it by law.

Mike

[mike stenson]

I don't have the dates, but I think all of the SawStop patents are just about expired. And, by law, you cannot do a patent licensing deal that extends past the expiration date of the patent.

So, let's say that a patent has one year to run, and a company wants to license it from the owner. The owner might say, "I'll license you with the provision that you continue to pay me a reduced fee after the patent expires." Can't do it by law.

Mike

Dates are earlier in this thread.

[Ronald Blue]

I don't have the dates, but I think all of the SawStop patents are just about expired. And, by law, you cannot do a patent licensing deal that extends past the expiration date of the patent.

So, let's say that a patent has one year to run, and a company wants to license it from the owner. The owner might say, "I'll license you with the provision that you continue to pay me a reduced fee after the patent expires." Can't do it by law.

Mike

In the comment section of the article I linked someone claims that there are additional patents protecting the Sawstop technology past 2030. I personally am highly skeptical of this. So Stephen Gass is a far better patent attorney than any other there has ever been? There are plenty of good ideas we've seen patented that as soon as the patent expired the competition had their version on the market. They wouldn't have also extended by supplemental companion patents if that was all it took? I think this year is when the main patent is supposed to expire. I guess time will tell. I like my Sawstop PCS and have no intention of ever needing the safety feature. Bbut I still think it's creator is despicable. Trying to strong arm the industry is just sleazy.

[Edward Weber]

Nothing has changed expect the date on the calendar.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?2844-SawStop-files-petition-with-CPSC&pp=15

[jack duren]

It’s called boredom..

repeat, repeat and repeat and repeat it some more.

[Edward Weber]

It’s called boredom..

repeat, repeat and repeat and repeat it some more.

You seem to be keeping up with this thread, does this mean you're bored?

[Ray Newman]

SawStop news release, dated 2/28/2024:

"SawStop To Dedicate Key U.S. Patent To The Public Upon The Effective Date Of A Rule Requiring Safety Technology On All Table Saws


"TUALATIN, OREGON, Feb. 28, 2024 — Today, in response to proposed rulemaking regarding table saw
safety by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), SawStop committed to dedicate U.S.
Patent 9,724,840 to the public upon the rule’s effective date.

"The intent of the proposed rule is to prevent the thousands of amputations and hospitalizations that will
continue to occur without industry-wide action.

“ 'We work to protect and inspire all woodworkers, from novice hobbyists to professional craftspeople.
Opponents of the proposed rulemaking have identified this patent as their key obstacle to offering safer
saws,' said Matt Howard, CEO, SawStop. 'We invest heavily in safety innovation, and our patents have
real value. Even so, we will not allow this patent to be an obstacle to a safer future. To that end, SawStop is prepared to dedicate this ‘840 patent to the public upon the effective date of a rule requiring active injury mitigation technology on all table saws. Although such a rule is likely many years away from an effective date, we at SawStop are determined to seek a win-win balance between our mission and our business responsibilities.'

"Safety Standards for Addressing Table Saw Blade-Contact Injuries
On November 1, 2023, the CPSC published a supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking under the
Consumer Product Safety Act proposing to issue a safety standard addressing blade-contact injuries on
table saws. The proposed rule would require all table saws to 'limit the depth of cut to no more than 3.5 mm' when a test probe, acting as a surrogate for a human finger or other body part, contacts the
spinning blade at a rate of 1 meter per second (m/s).

"As the pioneer in safety technology for table saws, SawStop believes such a standard will radically
improve the overall safety of all table saws sold in the United States. It will help prevent the tens of
thousands of severe injuries annually that result in billions of dollars in corresponding healthcare, pain,
and suffering costs for victims and society.

"For more information about the CPCS hearing from February 28, visit: https://www.cpsc.gov

Read all 'bout it: https://www.sawstop.com/news/sawstop-to-dedicate-key-u-s-patent-to-the-public-upon-the-effective-date-of-a-rule-requiring-safety-technology-on-all-table-saws/

[Darrell Bade]

Interesting to see if there are another 240 posts now without a villain................

[John Lanciani]

Looks to me that the patent in question has already expired?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9724840B2/en

[Steve Demuth]

Looks to me that the patent in question has already expired?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9724840B2/en

Google patents has this wrong. The 9724840 patent was issued with a one year extension, but after Sawstop took the patent office to task, the patent office extended that to roughly 11 years. The note correcting the date is appended to the patent in the patent database, but Google's patent processing robot didn't see that one page note, or didn't properly account for it. 9724840 at present looks good through 2033.

(Which, BTW, is outrageous, and a complete fail of the patent system, IMO. The patent coverage was extended under rules that say you can get one day of additional coverage for each day patent issuance is delayed for certain reasons. But Sawstop had effective coverage of the patent for the entire time issuance was delayed in this case. So Sawstop managed to game the system to get 30 years of patent protection after the invention was actually in the market place. It's crap like that that makes me dislike the whole profession of lawyering)

[Edward Weber]

Interesting to see if there are another 240 posts now without a villain................

Mr. Gass will always be the villain in my book.

For the last 20 years he has done everything possible to try and manipulate the marketplace, the courts, trade groups and government agency's to make his creation the law of the land, so to speak.
Whatever the result of the hearing, I'm sure we've not heard the last from him.

JMHO

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Mr. Gass will always be the villain in my book.

For the last 20 years he has done everything possible to try and manipulate the marketplace, the courts, trade groups and government agency's to make his creation the law of the land, so to speak.

JMHO

Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and many, many more have attempted most if not all of the above. It has been that way throughout our history.

[mike stenson]

Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and many, many more have attempted most if not all of the above. It has been that way throughout our history.

If you're upset about tech companies, you haven't looked at drug companies. They have patent extension privileges that the rest of us.. don't.

[Michael Burnside]

If you're upset about tech companies, you haven't looked at drug companies. They have patent extension privileges that the rest of us.. don't.

Amen to that Mike. Tech companies or SawStop don't even register on my radar in comparison.

[Steve Demuth]

Indeed. Big information technology companies, with a few exceptions (Qualcomm comes to mind, with respect to cellular tech) do not control markets primarily through patents. That's in no small part due to the fact that you can't generally patent most software-based innovation, and because technology debt and other forms of customer lock in create big barriers to entry, and the built-to-sell corporate structures funded by venture capital provide a roadmap for established giants to stifle platform change by acquiring innovations before they reach threatening mass, limits what can be done with a few good ideas.

Drug manufacturing is, as you say, a whole different ball game. Patents are the defense mechanism of choice for market control in the drug industry, and the drug companies are masters at manipulating the system in order to create huge rent-based cash flows. There are drugs with 95% margins with years of patent protection still in the pipeline, funding a little little bit of new drug development, and a lot of shareholder return, in every successful big drug company.

[Edward Weber]

“We invest heavily in safety innovation, and our patents have
real value. Even so, we will not allow this patent to be an obstacle to a safer future. To that end, SawStop is prepared to dedicate this ‘840 patent to the public upon the effective date of a rule requiring active injury mitigation technology on all table saws. Although such a rule is likely many years away from an effective date, we at SawStop are determined to seek a win-win balance between our mission and our business responsibilities.”

What a load of horse manure.

So, many years from now upon a regulatory mandate, they'll release one of the over 100 patents, so that they can claim they're all in for safety.
This is nothing more than the appearance of doing something good, without actually doing anything of substance at all.

I didn't think I could dislike them more but they just keep giving.