Arkansas Oil Stones Oil Usage

[Haitham Jaber]

Hello,

I've never understood which is the level of porosity of Arkansas Stones.
It may depend on the grit I guess but I have little knowledge on the subject.
Some is written in this page, I think they call it density: https://danswhetstone.com/information/common-questions/
I'm coming from years of waterstones and now I'm complementing it with natural arkansas stones.
I have some precious Dan's Whetstones and I don't want to screw up them so my question is.

I use Norton Oil on them but due to price and availability I'm purchasing as they become available, other brands.
I bought some Preyda and Narex Oil. If they suck the oil for some relative porosity
wouldn't it be a problem to mix up different oils during the life of the product? I know there's some illogicity in my
question but unknowledge leads to unexplicable and unconscious fears.

Regards,
Haitham

[David Carroll]

I'm not sure Novaculite is porous, at least not in the finer grades. The coarser grades may be a little, but not like water stones. My understanding is that the denser stones are harder and the less dense stones are softer. I believe the grading for these stones from coarse to fine is: Washita, Soft Arkansas, White Hard Arkansas, Translucent Hard Arkansas. One thing I am uncertain is where exactly Black Arkansas fits in. Some claim it is the finest, hardest, Arkansas stone. But I cannot confirm that because the Black stones that I have don't seem as fine as the Translucent stones.

As far as oil goes, I believe that most of the commercial honing oils are mostly repackaged mineral oil. I've seen old timers use motor oil mixed with kerosene, neat's foot oil, 3 in 1, Marvel Mystery oil, straight kerosene, and in a pinch cooking oil (wash it off after use or it becomes sticky). I use Norton's oil because I got it for Christmas, but mostly I use mineral oil.

I don't think it's a problem to mix oils. At least I have never heard that it was a problem. If the stones are at all porous, they don't any of them appear to soak oil in deeply.

For decades my sequence was Carborundum--India--Soft White--Translucent Ark--Belgian Coticule--Strop. But I HATE dressing (flattening) stones. So after a brief dalliance with Scary Sharp (TM) I bought a set of diamond stones and couldn't be happier. However, I still use India and Arkansas slip stones for my carving tools, with Norton's (mineral oil).

DC

[Ben Ellenberger]

I think the two I have are considered hard and true hard by that Dan’s naming system. I use India stones for coarser grits. I use mineral oil, but I prefer to cut it with some thinner stuff. I use more oil on the coarser stones, but find that just a drop is all I need on the finest stone. If I put too much oil on the finest stone, or try to use straight mineral oil on it, it feels like the blade is skating on the oil and not getting honed.

I don’t think you can do much damage to your stones or your blades by playing around with oil mixtures or amounts of oil, so I’d recommend experimenting and seeing what you like best. Every so often I’ll clean my coarser stone with WD-40 and a rag, and I find that does help it cut faster. I usually wipe down my finest stone at the same time, but I don’t notice any difference in the feel of it or how polished it leaves an edge.

[Rafael Herrera]

Depends on which stone you're talking about. You can see the pores on the softs from Dan's, but for all intents and purposes they won't soak the oil as you see waterstones do with water.

As per oil, I buy food grade mineral oil by the gallon for about $25. You can buy the little bottles of branded oil for the equivalent of several hundred dollars per gallon, but besides the stink of the volatiles mixed in with branded oil, there's no difference with mineral oil, which is inodorous. Kerosene will also stink up the house if you use it indoors.

Hard/fine Arkansas stones are what you'd use to finish/polish an edge. If you like spending extra time at the sharpening station, they're good to use. In ww an medium or fine India followed by a soft Arkansas or better yet, a Washita, and a strop gets and edge refreshed fairly quickly.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm coming from years of waterstones and now I'm complementing it with natural arkansas stones.

Sounds about like my own journey through the sharpening experience.

An important factor to consider is Arkansas stones are as varied as water stones. There are a half dozen stones in my shop listed as Washita stones. They are all different in the way they hone an edge.

There is also a set of Dan's Whetstones in my shop; soft Arkansas, hard Arkansas and black Arkansas along with many other various Arkansas stones.

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On the right is a large raw Arkansas stone purchased at a gem & mineral show for $1. It rivals my black Arkansas for polishing. The other stone is a Translucent Arkansas slip stone purchased from Dan's.

In the USA we have Material Safety Data Sheets > https://msdsdigital.com/norton-sharpening-stone-oil-msds < according to this, Norton honing oil is the following:

514127

It is refined mineral oil. I buy mine in the pharmacy section of my local grocer. It is labeled as a Lubricant/Laxative. I have also checked the labels on baby oil, almost pure mineral oil, some have an added aromatic like lavender. The baby oil is also usually more refined and a lighter grade.

In my local grocery store both are sold in clear bottles. It is possible to see the differences between the two grades by inverting the bottle and watching how fast the bubble rises.

The purpose of using oil is to keep the metal swarf from clogging the stone. Some people actually use water as their lubricant. Use of some lubricant is essential if you want to keep using the stone.

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Yes, there are many options.

jtk

[Haitham Jaber]

Carroll

I see your sequence. You put some oil stones at the start, then coticule at the end. Does that mean that you use the coticule with oil? Just a curiosity
Thank you everybody. When I relax at the sharpening station I go up to the strop, otherwise usually I stop to 1000. This is how I do in this space time.
Yes I agree with you. Considering the refineness of the oil to the senses, all the cutting or sharpening oils seem to be white oils. Branded differently.
Thank you for putting me back to the path. Frank Klausz stated he uses Kerosene. In my house I have hodourless mineral spirits, nitro solvent that is really strong (when I use it
on sticky labels it dissolves them better then limonene and then I have limonene. What can I use as a thinner, just to try out if it skates better on the stone?

Regards,
Haitham

[Jim Koepke]

What can I use as a thinner, just to try out if it skates better on the stone?

Mineral spirits mixes well with mineral oil for thinning.

jtk

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you!

[David Carroll]

Carroll

I see your sequence. You put some oil stones at the start, then coticule at the end. Does that mean that you use the coticule with oil?

No, I always use water with the coticule. But just a couple of drops. To be honest, I rarely use it anymore, most of the time I go up through the grits on the diamond stones and finish on strops. That gets things sharp enough for me with a minimum of time. The one exception is carving tools, particularly V-tools, skews and carving chisels (No. 1 on the Sheffield List). These I still go up through the grits then the coticule then a light stropping.

DC

[Warren Mickley]

We use oil on the stones so that the steel particles will float in suspension and keep from clogging pores, etc. Liquids like mineral spirits or kerosene or wd40 will not suspend the steel so well, so the stone has to be cleaned periodically to keep working.

"Mineral oil" is not a pure chemical like distilled water or salt or something. It is a mixture of various oils, some light and volatile, some heavy and thick. In the cheaper grades of oil, the volatiles will evaporate leaving a heavier sludge, eventually gumming up the stone. In more refined oils, the extremes, heavy and light, are removed so the oil will not get thicker over time.

Honing oil is mineral oil that is refined so that it will not get gummy over time.

If you are using the stones every day, the quality of the oil is not important, because you are constantly adding fresh stuff and wiping the tool of old dirty oil. If you let the stones sit for long periods, you would be better off paying for the more refined oil.

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you Warren. Invaluable help.

[Rafael Herrera]

Food grade mineral oil is refined. I wouldn't stake my nonexistent guru reputation, but I believe it is also non drying, at the very least not like mineral spirits, kerosene or wd40 which dry fairly quickly and leave residue behind.

I've found other grades that are further refined but those are produced for special industrial applications.

Did you get a sampler of honing oil from Dan's when you bought your stones? It's a rather smelly mix.

[Haitham Jaber]

Food grade mineral oil is refined. I wouldn't stake my nonexistent guru reputation, but I believe it is also non drying, at the very least not like mineral spirits, kerosene or wd40 which dry fairly quickly and leave residue behind.

I've found other grades that are further refined but those are produced for special industrial applications.

Did you get a sampler of honing oil from Dan's when you bought your stones? It's a rather smelly mix.

No i didn't get it, I bought them from Leevalley.

On Leevalley they call the hard black extra fine but on dan's they call it ultra fine. I don't understand anything. I just rely on
my feeling when sharpening ^^

[Rafael Herrera]

I suppose LV is trying to simplify the terminology for easier selection. Dan's grading can be relied on, their black is a very fine honing stone, you don't feel the abrasive action on your fingers, but it does abrade/polish. On the other hand, on a translucent (vintage in my case) you can get a burr quickly if you press firmly, also feel the abrasion.

In practical terms, for regular sharpening, whichever you use will give you a sharp edge.

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

Normally I don't feel that I am knowledgeable enough to add a lot to the information we have on this forum, but in this case I know a bit about this subject in regard to what these various oils and chemical are. I worked as an applied research chemist at a specialty chemicals plant where we made different solvents and very high grade specialty Diesel and gasoline fuels. The fuels we made are made to very tight specifications and are used by engine, automobile, tractor, etc. manufactures to test their engines. I developed some of the solvents we sold, including one that only one other manufacturer in the world was able to produce due to the very difficult specifications that it had to meet. I also worked with our specialty fuels group, custom distilling various process streams from the refinery across the street to be used for trial blends, and to do advanced characterization of these for the fuels group engineers. Thus, I am fairly knowledgeable about the various refinery product, process, reactors, and "in process" streams. The senior research fellow at our research group even referred to me as the corporate expert on solvents. I believe that there are folks that know more about these thing than I do, but I do have a pretty good knowledge of the subject.

Mineral oil and mineral spirits are called such because they are refined from crude oil, and crude oil was once called to be a "mineral" because it was pumped out of the ground. It is not a true mineral in the ordinary sense, of course, and those two products are not true minerals either, but the name has stuck.

All of the various materials mentioned in the above posts are refined from crude oil, but some of them have more chemical treatment to remove toxic, carcinogenic, and odorous compounds, and some are distilled to give tighter boiling ranges than others. The exceptions mentioned above are limonene, which is extracted from the peelings of citrus fruits, and vegetable oils which are extracted from various plant sources. Also, Neat's foot oil is extracted from lower leg and feet bones of cattle. "Neat" is an obsolete vintage word for cattle.

(I am having to post this and will be adding more via the "edit" mode because what I have been typing has disappeared a couple of times, and I have had to start over twice now.)

Such products as kerosene, fuel oil, Diesel fuel, and jet fuel are all somewhat to very similar in composition and have somewhat similar boiling ranges. These are products that have been through the refining process at refineries, but have no extra treatments to remove toxic, carcinogenic, and odorous compounds, and as such are thus harder on your health than are the more processed products. WD40 is a mixture of various refinery streams.

Mineral oil and mineral spirits are generally given extra treatment to improve the color, odor, etc. of the products. As such this process also makes the products much safer, health wise, to use. Odorless mineral spirits, food grade mineral oil, for example, are even safer to use than are the standard mineral oils and spirits.

All of the various refinery products are compatible and completely soluble in each other. So, for example, you can mix such things as baby oil with mineral oil or mineral spirits to thin it, or mix mineral oil with paint thinner or mineral spirits to thin it. Thus, as mentioned above, some used kerosene to thin motor oil to make their honing oil for use on their oil stones.

When I first worked at our plant, the senior chemist/lab manager advised me that there is a little of everything in everything that comes from a refinery. By that he meant that things are distilled at refineries very quickly, and as such the distillation cuts were not nearly as clean as what we did at our plant. This meant that there were small amounts of very high boiling compounds in products that were primarily lower boiling, so that there were small amounts of very heavy Diesel compounds in the gasoline, etc. For the use as motor fuel or motor oils such does not matter for practical considerations. What this means is that things like kerosene, as mentioned above, will leave some of this high boiling residue on the oil stones over a period of time, because those small amounts of viscous high boiling residues will not evaporate away.

An example of the use the solubility of these various hydrocarbon products, I bought a used oil stone, or perhaps a Carborundum stone years ago that was extremely grunged with dirt and oil. I soaked it in paint thinner to soak out the old high boiling oil components then scrubbed it with clean paint thinner and a tooth brush, and it cleaned up beautifully.

Generally speaking then, to tie this together, viscosity of the fluid goes up as boiling range goes up. From lowest boiling to highest boiling that I would list as relatively safe to use are: odorless paint thinner, mineral spirits, mineral oil, and baby oil. These can be mixed together to make whatever viscosity you like for an oil to use on your oil stones. For practical application they should work as well as any other material listed above. The other safe option is things like cooking oil/vegetable oil, etc., which should also be mixable with the mineral spirits or mineral oil. However, the cooking oil will eventually thicken up (due to polymerization) and get sticky as was mentioned above. Thus if using such, I would clean the stones after using a vegetable oil mix with something like mineral spirits or odorless paint thinner.

Regards,

Stew

[Tom M King]

Out of desperation, when I was young and poor, I used bacon grease once. It worked fine that morning, and using some other lighter oil later floated all that away.

The few times I've ever cleaned the oil stones I've used carb cleaner. The carb cleaner cleaned them so well that I found out what I had bought as a Black, in probably 1974, was really a translucent. These stones all work as good as they ever have.

[Rafael Herrera]

Unrefined mineral oil contains carcinogens and other toxic chemicals. Food grade or laxative mineral oil has been refined to remove these unwanted compounds. The CAS number (an ID used in the industry to identify chemicals) of food grade mineral oil is 8042-47-5. It's the same ingredient listed in the MSDS sheet of Norton's honing oil. Stew might be able to dispel the notion that if two products have the same CAS number, then they are the same thing.

My mineral oil is thin enough for my needs, so I don't really feel compelled to thin it. On the other hand 3 in 1 or neatsfoot oil, those two feel a bit too thick, and smelly. Not offensively smelly, but I rather use mineral oil.

Sometime ago I got some kerosene. I'm not a stranger to it, we used it a lot when I was a kid. I don't remember the smell being so strong, but using it in my basement workshop was a no go. Not the least because the odor would migrate to the rest of the house and cause my wife to complain. I've heard there are other grades of kerosene, but for me, it's not worth the effort to get it.

[Mark Leifer]

A stew, that’s a wonderful education. Thank you for sharing it. (Ever since childhood , I’ve wondered what Neat’s foot referred to.)

[Warren Mickley]

There is a difference between purifying and refining. Purifying means getting rid of impurities that are not oils to make it safe for skin or consumption or what ever. Refining means narrowing the molecular weight or boiling point to a certain range. Mineral oil which is not crude oil has been refined. the more volatile stuff like gasoline components and mineral spirits and the heavier stuff like tar are removed in the refining process. A highly refined oil has has components in a tight range of molecular weights and is more expensive.

When I was a teenager, I bought a 1/4 ounce of mineral oil for $1, minimum hourly wage at the time. It was clock oil. You did not want it to spread away from the bearing or gum up, etc. In order to get stuff in a tight range you need to do more refining steps. That same oil today is made synthetically, but is still around $15 an ounce.

[Haitham Jaber]

There is a difference between purifying and refining. Purifying means getting rid of impurities that are not oils to make it safe for skin or consumption or what ever. Refining means narrowing the molecular weight or boiling point to a certain range. Mineral oil which is not crude oil has been refined. the more volatile stuff like gasoline components and mineral spirits and the heavier stuff like tar are removed in the refining process. A highly refined oil has has components in a tight range of molecular weights and is more expensive.

When I was a teenager, I bought a 1/4 ounce of mineral oil for $1, minimum hourly wage at the time. It was clock oil. You did not want it to spread away from the bearing or gum up, etc. In order to get stuff in a tight range you need to do more refining steps. That same oil today is made synthetically, but is still around $15 an ounce.

Stew .... thank you so much for sharing your experience.
Warren ... what do you men by made synthetically. Are they not still derivate of hydrocarbures?

Yes 3-in-one has a smell to it (for me a nice smell) anyway I read somewhere that they add anti-corrosion additives

thx ^^

[Haitham Jaber]

I migh go a bit off topic but I would like to ask you two questions:

1. First, as I understood if i use them often it's not a problem but if I there's a period that I know I'm not gonna use them I should clean them with some refined solvent like odorless mineral spirit, unless I've used mineral oil on them and wipe them down. Anyway on Dan's whetstone website they say this: "Whetstones should be cleaned after each use by rubbing a liberal amount of honing oil onto the stone and then wiping the excess honing oil away with a clean cloth". Anyway they define their honing oil as a light mineral oil

2. I own the soft hard and black 8x3. I would like to add a translucent (even if it's similar to the black). I see on their online store they have the 10 and 12 inches long. For my woodworking and knife care also with waterstones I've always used the 8 lenght. Do you know any practical reason why a 10 and 12 would be better. I'm at the start of my crafts journey, so I might not see some useful uses that I may need in the future.

I've seen Schwarz using a 10 inches oilstone on roy underhill handplane essentials and it's just a precious thing

^^

[Rafael Herrera]

This pamphlet was published around 1900. It has some marketing language in there, but I think in general it can be used as reference. The advice is basically keep them clean and with some oil on them. That last part, to not allow the stone to "dry" because it can harden. I wonder about the rationale for that.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175035165789&view=2up&seq=20

The oils available in that period were not as light as what we have today, so issues of glazing and gumming were common. The last section promotes a non-drying oil manufactured by Norton, but there are no details about what it was.

On a side note, I've always been curious about the sperm whale oil that was common at that time. I found very little online about its properties. Somewhere I found that it was very light, odorless and non-drying. It's been banned for a while so it cannot be purchased commercially. I've seen auctions on ebay of old bottles with some oil left in them, but they usually sell for a couple of hundred dollars for a couple of ounces. Not worth the risk to buy.

Does anybody remember using it in their misguided youth?

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you Rafael

Nice little document there. I love them. Call me Romantic ^^

Luckily they stopped using whale oil. Unfortunately we're still depaupering mother earth for our petrol based oil... that I use too.
I should transition to natural oils in the future. When I'll be brave enough. I wonder if camelia works well on oil stones. I bet yes

^^

[Rafael Herrera]

2. I own the soft hard and black 8x3. I would like to add a translucent (even if it's similar to the black). I see on their online store they have the 10 and 12 inches long. For my woodworking and knife care also with waterstones I've always used the 8 lenght. Do you know any practical reason why a 10 and 12 would be better. I'm at the start of my crafts journey, so I might not see some useful uses that I may need in the future.

I've seen Schwarz using a 10 inches oilstone on roy underhill handplane essentials and it's just a precious thing ^^

A bigger stone is just very cool. For chisels, plane irons and knives, I don't think it's going to be of much advantage. 8x2x1 is kind of the sweet spot for a bench stone.

I once found an Norton 8x2x1 hard Arkansas. I sold it to a guy that really really wanted one. I already had several hard Arkansas, 7 x 2 x 1/2, and told myself I didn't really needed it. Big mistake, I regret selling it, lol.

Sold hard ark.
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What I occasionally use, a 7 x 2 x 1/2". The nail is in there so the phone could focus.
514257 514258

Get the biggest stone you can get away with. The ones that are 1" thick will allow you to fit them comfortably in their own boxes. You can go loco making nice boxes for them.
514259514260

[John C Cox]

I doubt I've gone through a whole pint of honing oil in my entire life. The little, bitty bottles are so convenient, and they last me years... The good stuff doesn't stink, turn gummy, or stain everything it touches. I guess I just don't begrudge them the $1.00 profit for packaging it conveniently and getting it on the shelves where I shop.

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you all ^^