I think I'm going to bail on TB111 glue

[Cameron Wood]

The weird substandard results are accumulating. Maybe shelf life, maybe lower temps.

Life is too short to wonder if the glue will work this time...

[Warren Lake]

glue starts going downhill at some point and its not that long, even if it works for years its not what it was. I forgot what Helmetin said on their brand and they make good stuff.

Glue should be stirred. Even if glue is warm if your material isnt you will have issues.

cant speak for tightbond used a few of them but almost all was Helmitin.

[Terence McGee]

The TB111 has a minimum temperature threshold. Since it's the winter season, the glue will tend to finish white after setting. If you notice it turning white once dried, that's a sign it's too chilly in the room. I've run into this a few times during winter myself, and it usually means I need to crank up the heat a bit in my workspace.

Another is, it's a water-based glue. If the surface you're working on is oil-based, it will not stick well.

[Mel Fulks]

This has come up before in a number of good sources . It is not as good as Titebond 2. There are some good waterproof glues.

[Kevin Jenness]

The weird substandard results are accumulating. Maybe shelf life, maybe lower temps.

Life is too short to wonder if the glue will work this time...

This post would benefit from a description of the substandard results you have experienced, including shelf life and environmental conditions in your shop. I am no great fan of Tlll but some people use it with good results. Are you following the manufacturer's guidelines? http://titebond.com/product/glues/e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af

[Bill Dufour]

Never heard of this glue? 811 is for flooring not wood. AFAIK they do not make a 111. maybe you mean 771?
BilL D.

[Jason Roehl]

Never heard of this glue? 811 is for flooring not wood. AFAIK they do not make a 111. maybe you mean 771?
BilL D.

I think he means “Titebond III,” or Titebond 3.

[Derek Kessler]

I've experienced the same thing with that glue. Definitely wise to explore other options. I stick with Titebond 2 for most projects.

[George Yetka]

8 years of using nothing but tb3 with the exception of 1 8oz bottle of 1 and 2 when I first started. I havent had any issues save a 1/4 gallon that hit 2 year mark and turned grey I tossed it.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I use TB Original for everything except canoe building or anything else that will be in water, which gets epoxy or Gorilla Glue. I used TBII a little and didn't like it as much, and have never tried TBIII. Around here the hardware stores sell gallons of II and III but I have to place a special order for Original.

[Michael Burnside]

TB 2 Extend, original dark or Epoxy for me. The formula for 3 leaves a sub-par glue line sometimes and doesn’t clean up as well.

Like others say, life is too short, try something else and forget what others say or what YouTubers do :)

[glenn bradley]

This post would benefit from a description of the substandard results you have experienced, including shelf life and environmental conditions in your shop. I am no great fan of Tlll but some people use it with good results. Are you following the manufacturer's guidelines? http://titebond.com/product/glues/e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af

Agree that more info would add to the value of the thread. I have used TB-III on almost everything (furniture-wise) for 15 years. The long open time, dark cured color, and strong first tack have worked well for me. I do use TB-I for lighter colored woods to avoid any visible seam. TB-II has a pretty short open time but has more than enough if you do a dry run and have everything at hand.


8 years of using nothing but tb3 with the exception of 1 8oz bottle of 1 and 2 when I first started. I havent had any issues save a 1/4 gallon that hit 2 year mark and turned grey I tossed it.

I was thinking that maybe this was a temperature or storage thing since I am in sunny SoCal. George's experience in New Jersey belies that idea. Franklin has stated that as long as the glue will re-blend if separated it will still perform well. I once had a partial gallon that was stored long enough to separate. I just tossed it. A project made from hundreds of dollars worth of wood is not worth risking over $10 worth of glue.

I have had TB-II and others skin the walls of the container if they are in something like a Glübot or a glue pot / brush. Fortunately a Glübot is only a few bucks so after one becomes too difficult to clean out (6 years or so INE) I just replace it. I am not a spendthrift but at some point my time is worth more than $8.

[Howard Rosenberg]

Temperature and oxygen inside the container will affect all glues.

I've never been a fan of T3 - too runny for me. I prefer https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/adhesives/glue/45104-lee-valley-cabinetmakers-glue-2002-gf .

Not for outdoor or wet usage but long open time and it stays put.

[Brian Runau]

My shop is in a basement where my furnace is located. I've used Titebond III for everything I've done the last 15 years without problems, except one seam shift in a table top and I've gone to II for table tops. I let it cure 45 minutes before I unclamp the piece. I shake the bottle each time before use. I only purchase the 16 oz size one at a time. Brian

[Michael Burnside]

I used TB III for a couple of years, every project, but for the last 3 years, as I mentioned above, I've avoided TB III for personal reasons already stated. That said, Brian makes a good point about buying in quantities you use. I just buy one 16oz bottle since that will last me a few projects and when that's about half'ish way done or I take inventory before I start my next furniture build, I just pickup another. I also just use the bottle the glue comes in.

[Jim Becker]

I have also cut back on my TB-III use; I use TB-I for most projects as they are largely not intended for wet situations. I also recently bought the darker/brown version of TB-II for when I want the glue to be darker for whatever reason. I'll still use TB-III when it's primary property is required if I don't want to use epoxy.

[Cameron Wood]

I had one obvious failure a few years ago- rails for a redwood gate, temps in the 40s.

Since then, a couple of times where the overall glue up was OK but one section or offcut didn't bond in spite of all the same conditions. This all from a gallon that is a couple of years old now.

Currently, cut some louver doors short and re installing the top rail between the stiles, & one of the joints did not hold at all. This was a medium bottle kept in the work van, not too old, temps low 60s.

I recently learned about stirring but did not think to do that.

I worry about the gate- in use ~3 years now, but I don't think I would be worrying if I had used TBII as I've never had any problem with that & have used it some in outdoor & wet projects.

[Bill Dufour]

TB-111 is a Belgium airline flight not a glue. Brussles to Cancun. I bet glue would freeze in the cargo hold at those altitudes. Why did we all think he was talking about a glue? He never said tite bond, just TB.
Bill D.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111
Bill D Airlines Belgium flight TB111TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111ttps://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111 TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111

[Phillip Mitchell]

I had a "failure" recently with TB III. Not sure if failure is the proper way to describe it, but I built a pair of exterior chaise lounge chairs from Cypress and Black Locust in 2019. They sit outside, under cover but definitely get sun, rain/snow exposure. The glue joints on many of the seat slats failed and were pulling apart. I repaired with West Systems Epoxy after cleaning each slat tenon down to raw wood with a chisel, applying epoxy to tenons and clamping for 24 hrs. I should have used Epoxy from the start for such a demand, but live and burn as my mentor used to tell me.

I haven't used TB III really in a few years and find it to be a bit too runny for my tastes. I stick with TB II or West Systems epoxy depending on the application.

[Andrew Hughes]

My experience is titebond 3 isn’t a very good outdoor glue. Joinery and wood species are far more important then the glue. Gorilla polyurethane is what I use for western red cedar, redwood and Douglas fir gates I've made. The bond is very good.
Good Luck

[Patrick Kane]

Oh my, I didnt realize there was so much pent up aggression towards TBIII! Other than 1 and 2, what are others using for general use? I tend to avoid epoxies or resin glues like unibond if i can. The less your body is exposed to things like that, the better. PU glues have always been a complete mess to clean up, and i havent purchased a PU glue in years. I recently saw a UK guy clean up PU glue with a spray solvent, and maybe that is enough for me to give it a second shot. Other than very minor 'creep' on bent laminations, TBIII has been a rock solid adhesive for me--indoor and outdoor. And honestly, the creep is something i can live with. Put another way, the creep isnt bad enough for me to turn to a urea or formaldehyde glue. I estimate ive used maybe 10 gallons of TBIII over the last decade, and it is nice to have two adhesives on hand for everything. If i needed a long open time, i used west systems. Everything else gets TBIII, which simplifies life considerably. Im open to a switch, and ill save TBIII for the once a year cutting board where it is one of the only 'food safe' adhesives.

[Steve Demuth]

This is pretty much my experience, Patrick. TBIII has been my solid go to adhesive for years, and I've had very few issues. I've used it for bent laminations, veneer laminations, and some of my ordinary joinery. The only failures I've had have been directly traceable to not paying attention to temperature. My shop is only heated when I use it, and in the winter, you do want to be careful to get both glue and wood warmed to working temperature, and to keep them there for a good 12 hours after glue up.

I do also use Total Boat and some West System epoxy, for situations where I need a space filling adhesive. I use hide glue for joinery that I think may need to come apart in a forseeable repair situation. But overable, I probably use 10 times as much TBIII as the rest combined.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Patrick, I use Lee Valley 2002GF

Regards, Rod

[mike stenson]

Oh my, I didnt realize there was so much pent up aggression towards TBIII! Other than 1 and 2, what are others using for general use? .

liquid hide glue, long open times, reversible, invisible to finishes (and cleans up easily with water), and you could probably eat it. Not waterproof, but I don't generally make outdoor furniture.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Hi Patrick, I use Lee Valley 2002GF

Regards, Rod

I get a "not available for tis region" message on the Lee Valley US site.

[Michael Burnside]

liquid hide glue, long open times, reversible, invisible to finishes (and cleans up easily with water), and you could probably eat it. Not waterproof, but I don't generally make outdoor furniture.

Mike, I don't have a lot of experience with Hyde glue. I typically like to use epoxy for anything critical as it's wicked strong, long open times and while I need acetone or 99% alcohol to clean it, it generally makes for a beautiful glue line. But it's not cheap and it does take a bit more prep.

How is the durability/strength of hyde glue? Any types of wood it should be avoided? I'm intrigued using this. Any brand recommendations?

[Kevin Jenness]

It's interesting that people have such differing assessments of TBlll. Two of the architectural woodworkers I listen carefully to are on opposite sides of the fence. David Sochar eschews the stuff after some problems with high temperature failures in service while Joe Calhoon, I believe, uses it regularly in doormaking. I don't like its evident lack of rigidity and use Titebond ll or marine epoxy for exterior work depending on how sozzled I expect the work to get, and how much working time I need. I am aware of the allergenic potential of epoxy and try to work clean, but there are many boatbuilders who just can't tolerate the stuff after a certain amount of exposure. I do appreciate the almost unlimited shelf life and wide working temperature range of epoxy.

[mike stenson]

Mike, I don't have a lot of experience with Hyde glue. I typically like to use epoxy for anything critical as it's wicked strong, long open times and while I need acetone or 99% alcohol to clean it, it generally makes for a beautiful glue line. But it's not cheap and it does take a bit more prep.

How is the durability/strength of hyde glue? Any types of wood it should be avoided? I'm intrigued using this. Any brand recommendations?

These days the two brands are Old Brown Glue and Titebond Liquid Hide glue. I generally buy whatever is available easily. It's pretty much used like PVA, except that you'll want to keep it in clamps longer. I prefer overnight. It gets sticky when it's cold. Easy solution, put the bottle in hot water and it'll get as runny as you want (or don't, this is really nice repairing cracks btw).

As for strength, FWW did some testing (#192 - Jul/Aug 07 - page 39). They concluded that it's 79% as strong as Type 1 (waterproof) PVA, using bridle joints as a test bed. To be honest, however, I've seen lots of furniture that was made with hot hide glue (which is weaker than the liquid stuff) that's been in daily use for a couple hundred years. So I'm not really worried about glue failure, and if it did you hide glue sticks to itself. So you don't even have to remove all of it to repair it.

I don't work with oily exotics, so not a clue how well it'd work on those.

[Jim Becker]

TB-111 is a Belgium airline flight not a glue. Brussles to Cancun. I bet glue would freeze in the cargo hold at those altitudes. Why did we all think he was talking about a glue? He never said tite bond, just TB.
Bill D.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111
Bill D Airlines Belgium flight TB111TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111ttps://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111


https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/tb111 TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111

TUI Airlines Belgium flight TB111


Context matters...

[Bill Dufour]

Context does matter. Some of those big jets are made of glued up parts with few or no rivets used. That submarine that imploded was made of glue up fabric rejected by Boeing. I bet they got a bargin price on glue as well.
BilL D

[John Kananis]

For a different perspective, I much prefer the traditional hide glue that you mix yourself (although i haven't really used obg or the tb variant much at all. Traditional hide glue requires much less time in the clamps, you can keep it open forever by keeping warm and adding water as needed, can be used to hammer veneer without a press, plus all the other good qualities already listed above. Joints glued with hide glue not only last an incredibly long time; they're far easier to repair. I'm not saying I use primarily hide glue, most projects get pva, some epoxy, some unibond 800, etc, etc. Use what's appropriate to the individual project.


These days the two brands are Old Brown Glue and Titebond Liquid Hide glue. I generally buy whatever is available easily. It's pretty much used like PVA, except that you'll want to keep it in clamps longer. I prefer overnight. It gets sticky when it's cold. Easy solution, put the bottle in hot water and it'll get as runny as you want (or don't, this is really nice repairing cracks btw).

As for strength, FWW did some testing (#192 - Jul/Aug 07 - page 39). They concluded that it's 79% as strong as Type 1 (waterproof) PVA, using bridle joints as a test bed. To be honest, however, I've seen lots of furniture that was made with hot hide glue (which is weaker than the liquid stuff) that's been in daily use for a couple hundred years. So I'm not really worried about glue failure, and if it did you hide glue sticks to itself. So you don't even have to remove all of it to repair it.

I don't work with oily exotics, so not a clue how well it'd work on those.

[Jim Becker]

Context does matter. Some of those big jets are made of glued up parts with few or no rivets used. That submarine that imploded was made of glue up fabric rejected by Boeing. I bet they got a bargin price on glue as well.
BilL D
But given this is a woodworking forum... ;)

[mike stenson]

For a different perspective, I much prefer the traditional hide glue that you mix yourself (although i haven't really used obg or the tb variant much at all. Traditional hide glue requires much less time in the clamps, you can keep it open forever by keeping warm and adding water as needed, can be used to hammer veneer without a press, plus all the other good qualities already listed above. Joints glued with hide glue not only last an incredibly long time; they're far easier to repair. I'm not saying I use primarily hide glue, most projects get pva, some epoxy, some unibond 800, etc, etc. Use what's appropriate to the individual project.

Agreed. I will use a glue pot, but I'm loathe to recommend it generally. ;)

You can also make glue from gummy bears, or just gelatin.. if you're into making your own.

[Michael Burnside]

Agreed. I will use a glue pot, but I'm loathe to recommend it generally. ;)

You can also make glue from gummy bears, or just gelatin.. if you're into making your own.

Ok I draw the line at gummy bears :)

[Mel Fulks]

Now it seems hide glue is ……pasteurized ? And we Used to see sellers ads with info on what STRENGTHS of glue were available ! In
numbers !
Now it’s “ if it don’t work ….put on another coat “ or add more water , product is versatile ! Have It YOUR WAY ,Have it YOUR WAY !

[Bill Dufour]

Now it seems hide glue is ……pasteurized ?
Upholstery tacks are sterilized for safer woodworking. Wouldn't want to catch tack disease. Craft stores sell tacky glue. No idea what it is. I wonder if it is pasteurized as well.
BilL D

[mike stenson]

Now it seems hide glue is ……pasteurized ? And we Used to see sellers ads with info on what STRENGTHS of glue were available ! In
numbers !
Now it’s “ if it don’t work ….put on another coat “ or add more water , product is versatile ! Have It YOUR WAY ,Have it YOUR WAY !

Personally, I'd prefer that my glue doesn't rot. Because that stinks, literally.

[John Kananis]

Yeah, that stuff is garbage. Luthier supply houses still offer the good stuff you can order by strength (number).

Also, no gummy bears have ever been harmed in my shop. Fact.


Now it seems hide glue is ……pasteurized ? And we Used to see sellers ads with info on what STRENGTHS of glue were available ! In
numbers !
Now it’s “ if it don’t work ….put on another coat “ or add more water , product is versatile ! Have It YOUR WAY ,Have it YOUR WAY !

[John Kananis]

Personally, I'd prefer that my glue doesn't rot. Because that stinks, literally.

I only mix enough for what I'm doing and get rid of the rest. Unless I'm using it again the next day.

[mike stenson]

I only mix enough for what I'm doing and get rid of the rest. Unless I'm using it again the next day.

Hot hide glue, sure. However, you yourself said you mostly use PVA.

This I why I won't recommend it as a general glue, which is what the question was. I use mostly liquid hide glue.

[John Kananis]

Fair and fair.


Hot hide glue, sure. However, you yourself said you mostly use PVA.

This I why I won't recommend it as a general glue, which is what the question was. I use mostly liquid hide glue.

[Mel Fulks]

Hot Hyde glue is quick . I think that’s why some don’t like it…. hard to manage the RADIO !

[Mel Fulks]

Well ,the restoration people say it’s “reversible “ . That means that if furniture is botched or broken it can be fixed. Never use the epoxy glue , ( puts a pox on your house).

[lou Brava]

If I remember right comparing TB 3 & TB 2, TB 3 has longer open time & can be used in temps as low as 45 deg. TB 2 min. temp use is at 55 deg. Since I live where outside temps will get in 20's inside shop 50 deg at night I've used a lot of TB 3 and the long open time helps on real large glue ups. Also viscosity of TB 3 helps when having to spread it over a large surface. Like others I've never had a problem with it. So I believe they made TB 3 for different applications, if it's cold & or you need a longer open time use TB 3 if not TB 2. I looked at the Lee valley glue but kind find any info. on min. temp. requirements.

[Jimmy Harris]

I've been using TB 3 for years and never had an issue. It's just about the only wood glue I use, unless I have a good reason to go with something else. The reasons are the lower temperature, water resistance, longer open times, and thinner viscosity with makes spreading easier. Plus, it's supposed to be able to withstand up to 5 freeze and thaw cycles before it goes bad. Though I doubt my glue ever freezes. But it's nice to have that insurance.

And I think the reason why I don't have problems, is because since I just buy this one glue, and I only buy as much as I need for my current project, I'm never working with old glue. That, and I don't push the temperature thing. You may think you're saving money buying it by the gallon, but if you're not using it often, and mixing it before each use, you'll likely make up for any cost savings with a failed glue joint every now and then.