Japanese carving knives

[Haitham Jaber]

Hello,

In the local Woodworker's Store they have a nice set of Ikeuchi Japanese Carving knives, different shapes.
I attach here two of them to give you the idea.
The strange thing, from my novice point of view, is that the blade is on the other side. It seems like they're a left-handed set
but in the shop they have a full assortment that is the same as these. So my idea is that they're used on the push instead
of on the pull. (That is also safer)

What is your idea on the matter? Thank you and happy new year

Cheers
Haitham513892513893513894

[Edward Weber]

Not all bladed tools are used with the bevel facing up.
While these may in fact be left handed, this may not always be the case.
Using a tool with the bevel up, the cutting edge wants to cut down, into the wood.
Using a tool with the bevel down, gives the user more control over the depth of cut by being able to better control the cutting edge angle.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm fairly sure you can purchase these in both right and left handed versions. I have those knives - without handles - in both right and left handed versions. They come in different widths but I only have the 1/2 inch versions because I use them as marking knives when doing dovetails.

Here are some pictures. I made cases for the knives - not handles - just to protect the edges when not in use.

513913

There are three sets of left and right knives on the left side of the picture. I have two Narex marking knives on the right side of the picture. At the top of the picture is a violin knife, but that's double beveled.

The knives are hand made so they're different thicknesses - I had to make the case to fit. To make sure I get the right knife back into the right case, I had to mark them.

513912
A little closer view of the Narex knives. The problem with them was that the angle of the blade was not steep enough, I had to do major reshaping of the cutting edge.

And, finally, a picture of the knives in their cases.
513914

I can reverse the knives in their cases and the edge will be exposed, but the knife is loose in the handle so it wouldn't work to try to use it that way.

Mike

[Cameron Wood]

I also have both right and left-handed ones. As a marking knife, a right hander holds the square in the left hand, and the knife in the right with the flat side of the blade against the square, so those are right-handed.

[Edward Weber]

The knives the OP showed are aimed more towards carving, not just marking or scribing a line.

The knives shown are available L or R or as a complete set
https://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/luthier-tools/carving-knives-and-chisels/japanese-kogatana-wood-carving-knife-set-w-roll-up-bag-set-of-6/

[Haitham Jaber]

@ Edward Weber

So left of right is not referred to the user being left or right-handed but more to the kind of control that you want to gain from the tool itself?

[Richard Coers]

The knives the OP showed are aimed more towards carving, not just marking or scribing a line.

The knives shown are available L or R or as a complete set
https://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/luthier-tools/carving-knives-and-chisels/japanese-kogatana-wood-carving-knife-set-w-roll-up-bag-set-of-6/
I'd even call them whittling knives or stabbing carving tools.

[Cameron Wood]

I was curious about left handed Japanese woodworking tools, & found out that basically there are no left handers in Japan- it is trained out at an early age.

[Jimmy Harris]

It used to be like that in the US and Europe, and still is in many countries around the world. At one time, your left hand was called your sinister hand and your right hand your dexter hand. Sinister is actually the Latin word for left, though it too carried connotations of wrongness or perversion. Left handedness was considered a sign of evil, so it was trained out of people at a young age.

[Luke Dupont]

What about these makes you think that they are left handed? How do you use a knife when carving? I predominantly push cut and slice away from myself. It's the same in Japan. Therefore, the flat is on the left side of the blade.

Not all Japanese tools are used on the pull stroke! We also don't pull our chisels over here ;)

It's true that people are generally corrected and taught to use their right hands. There's no moral reason judgement about the left hand -- it's just very, very hard to write Japanese / Chinese with your left hand. Impossible really. The strokes don't look right.

Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't natural lefties (my son is one! And even I am one who was corrected early on, though I was raised in the US to US parents!) and it also doesn't mean that there aren't uses for a "left hand" version of the a tool, such as when you want to pull cut or need to reach in some awkward space. Also bevel down is appropriate at times.

And of course marking knives often have both left and right versions, though I think most people just tilt the knife and don't have a left hand version.

[Charles Edward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVbRMMri_i4

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QDM_K5ZK7Os

Sanded surfaces didn't turn out half-bad either. ;)

[Haitham Jaber]

They replied to me from Ikeuchi, Japan with these words:
When used in Japan, I often use push cut, and if it is pull cut, I feel it is for left-handed people.
Anyway as those gorgeous videos show, they seems to be used either direction.

Thank you all

[Charles Edward]

They replied to me from Ikeuchi, Japan with these words:
When used in Japan, I often use push cut, and if it is pull cut, I feel it is for left-handed people.
Anyway as those gorgeous videos show, they seems to be used either direction.

Thank you all

Look at their hands. They tell you everything.

[Haitham Jaber]

Look at their hands. They tell you everything.

Yes that video was invaluable. I looked at how they reversed the blade also. thank you
I bought them, they're really lightweight and comfortable in the hands

I don't know if it's bamboo or not but I would like to put some tung oil on some of them
and some walnut oil followed by walnut wax on others to protect them from water when I sharpen them

What do you think?

This is the video on how they forge them. It's Blue Paper Steel type II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDcY28auCy4&t=1s

I don't know yuo guys but I respect and love japanese culture and how they tenaciously preserve their tradition still innovating

Regards
HJ

[Cameron Wood]

That is a romantic idea, but a set of six for $100 knives is not hand forged like that.

I like to put tung oil on chisel handles but my only knife with a wood handle has very porous wood so I leave that raw.

The hard steel and low angles make the blades vulnerable to chipping, or even the tip breaking, so avoid prying, levering, and reaming actions.

[Charles Edward]

Yes that video was invaluable. I looked at how they reversed the blade also. thank you
I bought them, they're really lightweight and comfortable in the hands

I don't know if it's bamboo or not but I would like to put some tung oil on some of them
and some walnut oil followed by walnut wax on others to protect them from water when I sharpen them

What do you think?

This is the video on how they forge them. It's Blue Paper Steel type II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDcY28auCy4&t=1s

I don't know yuo guys but I respect and love japanese culture and how they tenaciously preserve their tradition still innovating

Regards
HJ

"What do you think?"

I think the knives being used in the videos were kept functionally sharp, and used for hours on end every week by craftsmen whose hands showed it.

They were not sharpened and then put in a rack unused so the sharpener could proclaim his or her expertise as a tool sharpener rather than a tool user. There are no doubt people who could sharpen those knives within a micron of their life and have zero clue how to use them, and never build anything of note with them, much less use them to get sets of chairs out the door every week.

Yes, you need to know how to sharpen. It shouldn't become an end in itself.

[Haitham Jaber]

Dear Edward,

With all the respect with your help and your listening to my doubts, I don't agree with either your assertions.

1. Being my set of knives hand or not hand forged it doesn't matter that much to me. Hikuachi makes original knives for 220 dollars each and they
might be the one in the video. My idea, would it be romantic or not, considering also the fact that I don't feel ashamed of being "romantic", in the means of living the things with deep passion and admirating the tradition, I still think that the way in many corners of Japan, the most, but also America, Russia and little forgotten corners of Italy France or whatever you want, there is still some respect and attention to our past as something that enriches our experience. Well that is not, for me, merely romantic but a way of living. But I'm still opened to your opinions because my point of view shouldn't be considered as conservative but opened to the past the future and the present. You can then attach any category to my point of view but you will not be able to flatten it in just the two dimensions of a word, because it's deeper and I can write for hours if you want

2. I like to sharpen and I consider it part of the beauty of the crafts. But that's my personal way of living the crafts. I don't have to demonstrate anything to nobody. That's just what I like. So I may sharpen something just to enjoy sharpening or sharpen in a hurry because I need to go back to the bench. It depends on how my soul is vibrating at the moment

Regards,
Haitham

[Cameron Wood]

I have planes that are more modern, factory made, that work very well, and concede only some vibe, patina, and saw cuts to their older, more hand made counterparts.

I also enjoy sharpening almost as an end in itself, but agree with Charles Edward that a 10,000 grit polish makes no difference after a few strokes.
514136514137
These are hand forged, with the far one having a pedigree, not that old, and lightly used. I haven't had it that long so we're still getting acquainted.
I have an even rattier looking one but it is at a jobsite at the moment.

514138514139

[Charles Edward]

Dear Edward,

With all the respect with your help and your listening to my doubts, I don't agree with either your assertions.

1. Being my set of knives hand or not hand forged it doesn't matter that much to me. Hikuachi makes original knives for 220 dollars each and they
might be the one in the video. My idea, would it be romantic or not, considering also the fact that I don't feel ashamed of being "romantic", in the means of living the things with deep passion and admirating the tradition, I still think that the way in many corners of Japan, the most, but also America, Russia and little forgotten corners of Italy France or whatever you want, there is still some respect and attention to our past as something that enriches our experience. Well that is not, for me, merely romantic but a way of living. But I'm still opened to your opinions because my point of view shouldn't be considered as conservative but opened to the past the future and the present. You can then attach any category to my point of view but you will not be able to flatten it in just the two dimensions of a word, because it's deeper and I can write for hours if you want

2. I like to sharpen and I consider it part of the beauty of the crafts. But that's my personal way of living the crafts. I don't have to demonstrate anything to nobody. That's just what I like. So I may sharpen something just to enjoy sharpening or sharpen in a hurry because I need to go back to the bench. It depends on how my soul is vibrating at the moment

Regards,
Haitham

I like things in context. I don't think the workmen in the video value sharp edges any less, I just suspect that have them in firm context.