New Workshop Questions

[Aaron Liebling]

My wife and I are moving from the SF Bay Area to 10 acres on the outskirts of Santa Fe, NM. Part of the move is that I get to build a new workshop in place of the decrepit stables on the property. My current plan is a concrete slab (heated?) and a steel structure ~40'x30' - around '20x'30 of that will be shop. Some general questions:

1. The structure company will insulate the side wall, though I haven't confirmed what material/r value. How does one usually finish the walls in these steel structures?

2. I'm going for high walls due to needs for some of my other hobbies (there will be a training wall for climbing at the back of the structure). I assume this is another reason to lean in to in-slab heating.

3. What's the best way to subdivide the space with the typical steel structures, especially given the relatively high walls and peaked roof. I'll probably try to have a 10'x10' finishing room as well as a small sound insulated room for the dust collector.

4. Dust collector: I have an oneida 3000 that I currently output to a sealed barrel. In the new property, I could instead output outside of the building. This would require cutting through the wall. Is it worth the trouble? I'm just a hobbies, so emptying the barrel isn't that big of a deal. Also, in my current basement shop it is fixed to the wall. I guess I'll need a standalone base for it?

Anything else I should be thinking about?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Versatility is a big factor for me. I occasionally need my big space to be as big as possible. This cold snap has me wishing I had a divider and zoned heating. I have been looking at accordion room dividers. Good luck with your move. It sounds exciting.

[Jack Frederick]

I have done a lot of radiant heat over 50+ year in the business and chose to not do radiant in my past shop in the Foothills. Even buying right and doing the install myself, it was a lot of work and expensive. The biggest issue is how you intend to use the space. Are you going to be out there all the time or is this an occasional space. If the later you are always chasing the set-point or spending a lot of dough on keeping the place warm when you are out not out there. Many times folks end up putting in a supplemental heater to bring the temp up quickly, because your slab will not do that. I’d put the radiant money into solar and zero your bill or you can buy that nice slider you reference in another post.
Also, I would move the DC to the outside. It is a workshop and noisy by its very nature, but a lot of your comfort in a space is based on the audio side. Cyclones are noisy. The Harvey G-700 might be an option. It made a big difference for me. I never climbed in NM. How’s the rock?

[Aaron Inami]

I have no experience with steel structures. I will say that as woodworkers evolve their shop, they will need to anchor a whole lot of different things to the walls. This include stuff like shelving, ducting, electrical conduits, etc., etc.. Maybe someone else can chime in here on any challenges for using steel frame. Unless you don't plan to use the walls for anything.

[John Pendery]

I’ve seen steel building interior walls finished in 3/4 t&g plywood. I think it depends on the span between the horizontal cross members or girts, but they’re typically pretty far apart and need the 3/4 thickness for those spans. What ceiling height are you planning on? I have a moon board in my barn that would work with 12’ ceilings. Subdividing should be as simple as framing any interior wall with metal or wood studs. When I built my shop a couple years ago I put in slab heating but still haven’t hooked it up to my boiler. I’m hoping to get around to that project this winter. Sounds like a fun project!

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[Aaron Liebling]

The house already has a substantial and efficient solar set up, so electricity is pretty much a non-issue (no gas at all on the other hand, which has its own issues re: water heaters and cooking).

Thanks for the input on radiant, Jack. It does sound like targeted heating just when used may be a better bet. What are people using for electric targeted heating for large spaces?

@aaron: I do have concerns about the walls and mounting things. Obviously, I know structural stuff (the climbing board, etc...) will have to be freestanding, but I'm curious exactly how much weight can be hung on the walls (and what kind of interior finishes I should be thinking about).

@john: What angle is your board at? I really want to do adjustable, as the angle I'd prefer is pretty much unusable by my wife. We're going to be ~25 minutes from the climbing gym (which is only ok to begin with) as opposed to my 3 blocks to the best climbing gym in the country right now - this is probably the hardest transition for me.

The climbing in NM can be excellent - there's great, longer granite in the Sandias overlooking Albuquerque. I'll probably spend a fair amount of my climbing time either out in the desert or at the Black in Colorado (and of course ice climbing in southern CO). That said, I'm going to miss Yosemite as my usual weekend climbing. Nothing like it - unless my wife had been willing to move to Chamonix, which she sadly veto'ed.

Finally, I haven't signed any contracts yet - are there price competitive alternatives to steel structures that I should be considering?

[John Pendery]

Aaron, my board is at 40 degrees. At this angle you might even get by with 10’ ceilings, but it would be tight. 25 would be a much friendlier angle and I’ve thought of devising a system to make it adjustable so my girlfriend can get on it. Not sure what that would do height wise, but can figure it out and let you know.

I would listen to Jack as he has far more experience with Randi a than I do. I wanted to give it a try and I did all the work myself, but it says something that I’ve moved into my shop and been working for a solid year in there day in and day out, and still yet to finish hooking it up!

Jealous of your climbing out west. Lots of good sport climbing here about 45 minutes away at Red River Gorge, but nothing like the trad climbing you guys have out there!

Pole barns are popular and cost effective in my area, but not sure if they are a good choice in your area. I stick framed my entire shop with one helper since I did a lot of framing back in the day. I might have saved a bit, but I think I chose the most labor intensive way to build a shop at every step of the way short of timber framing the thing!

[Jim Becker]

Aaron, I'll suggest multiple MiniSplit systems for heating/cooling as their inverter technology is very efficient electrically and you can more quickly tailor the space to your needs. In-floor radiant is nice for folks in northern climates who can turn it on in the fall and leave it on until the spring. While you'll certainly get some cold weather in your new area, it's not likely to be sustained enough to allow for in-floor radiant to be efficient. With the split systems and multiple inside units, you get the benefit of heat when you need it and A/C when you want it, too.

Insulation on steel buildings is typically a blanket type that gets installed prior to exterior surfaces. For "walling up" on the exterior walls, you'll need to handle it similar to any kind of post frame structure except the spans between the posts are generally much wider on the steel buildings popular in that geography (for good reason) and you may end up using metal channel for girts because of the spans if you choose horizontal. You can also fill in between the posts with "stick built" walls, either with wood or steel, your choice. Partitions would be similar. If you need to separate environmentally, you'll have to take the walls all the way up if you plan on keeping things open to the roof deck. Spaces like a finishing room can have their own ceiling which presents a mezzanine opportunity for storage or office or whatever.

[Aaron Liebling]

Thanks for the great info. Santa Fe is at over 7k feet, so it has more of a winter than much of the desert (and less insanely hot summers). Most of the houses use splits, so doing the same in the shop makes sense. Anyone have preferences on splits or are they much of a muchness?

My current plan is likely 12' walls, maybe 14'. With the peaked roof, I should actually be able to go a bit higher inside.

@john: I don't think I could ever live back east happily. The mountains are just too small! It is closer to Europe, which is nice, though (my parents are elderly and live in Belgium).

[Derek Kessler]

I would suggest using rolling dividers so you can still adjust your layout and adapt depending on your current project

[Jonathan Jung]

A few inputs.

No one I've met, in multiple states and multiple countries, regrets hydronic heating. You can target the heat with valving such that certain zones stay warmer. You might even be able to pull up some geothermal heat for free.

Placing the DC outside will result in noticeable heat loss, even if the airflow is directed back inside the building. At the least you would want to wrap the pipe that's outside to insulate.

[John Pendery]

A few inputs.

No one I've met, in multiple states and multiple countries, regrets hydronic heating. You can target the heat with valving such that certain zones stay warmer. You might even be able to pull up some geothermal heat for free.

Placing the DC outside will result in noticeable heat loss, even if the airflow is directed back inside the building. At the least you would want to wrap the pipe that's outside to insulate.


I’m hoping this to be true in my application. I was doing all the work myself, so I figured it was worth throwing the hydronic radiant system in my slab while I had the chance. I ran six zones back to a manifold where I can have everything open or shut off the center loops to control temp. I also installed a boiler with a heat exchanger so domestic water and the water in my hydronic system will never mix, eliminating any chance of legionnaires forming in my domestic system. I’m anxious to finish the instal when I catch a break.

[Steven O Smith]

My shop has a concrete floor. The concrete company was happy to work with me to put attach points in the floor. Mine are 10" square 3/4" plate with four 3/4" threaded holes in the corners. The individual plates are joined into an array (4' centers) by being welded to rebar. The threaded holes are plugged with set screws, ending up flush to the floor.
Overkill? You bet, but I could only do it once, and it wasn't very expensive. I do need to chip the concrete out of the hex socket whenever I remove a set screw that I haven't used before, one time deal. I can attach anything to the floor, including a temporary wall if so inclined. Vises are very solid. I do metal as well as wood.
The first use was when I was moving things into the shop and got a trailer stuck outside the shop door. Pulled one set screw and added a hoist ring, hooked a come-a-long to it and the trailer.

[Jim Becker]

If you want DIY, MrCool is the best thing since kiln dried lumber for mini splits. Easy DIY install with only basic tools (wrenches). There are also other systems of various names available for DIY, although you need to either invest in some tools or get professional help for the lineset and charging. Note that many of the non-MrCool DIY systems will not have a warranty without pro install...read the fine print. I went MrCool for my shop and am very pleased and the lineup is broad relative to sizing and availability of multi-interior air handlers when required for the application. Your building is larger so you will certainly need multiple units and how you ultimately divide the space will come into play, too. Note also that high ceilings also need to be considered because the baseline specifications for square footage are relative to "regular" 8 foot-ish ceiling heights.

[Jack Frederick]

Steven, I did something similar in my shop, but did not bolt things in. In my 30x34 I set one receiver hitch in line with the big door and on the other side did a square pattern. I welded rebar across the hitches and we placed them as we moved through the pour. I had it all laid out for square, but when the mud is flying things got a little cattywhompus. I was able to overcome the lack of square by welding cross pieces to bring it in line. I especially liked this set up as I could make a vertical frame out of Uni-strut. Once laid out I could make panels on the frame while standing. I did a big metal fence project that way. With ceiling clips I could assemble the frame in about 20-30 min and knock it down faster.

[John Pendery]

Aaron, I’ve had good luck with Mitsubishi mini splits. I think most of the major mini split companies offer good products, but I’ve heard of Trane rebadging splits made by someone else that perhaps aren’t top of the line as one typically associates with traditional Trane air handlers/furnaces. I don’t have personal experience with them, so that might just be bogus talk I’ve heard. The higher SEER units are getting insanely energy efficient and actually offer 100% heating capacity at super cold temps, but can get pricey. I don’t have any experience with the diy Mr Cool that Jim mentioned, but these look like pretty neat solutions at significant savings.

[Patty Hann]

Aaron, I’ve had good luck with Mitsubishi mini splits. I think most of the major mini split companies offer good products, but I’ve heard of Trane rebadging splits made by someone else that perhaps aren’t top of the line as one typically associates with traditional Trane air handlers/furnaces. I don’t have personal experience with them, so that might just be bogus talk I’ve heard. The higher SEER units are getting insanely energy efficient and actually offer 100% heating capacity at super cold temps, but can get pricey. I don’t have any experience with the diy Mr Cool that Jim mentioned, but these look like pretty neat solutions at significant savings.


When my gara shop is rewired (to augment the single overhead 2 bulb light/outlet :rolleyes:) I plan to get a Mitsubishi minisplit (the one that is sized for 400 sq ft)

[Jack Frederick]

I’m highly biased in mini-split choice. I represented Fujitsu for about 15 yrs in a six state area. There are a million off brands that can be had pretty cheaply. The question is, will they last and how do you get parts/warranty support? Mitsu and Fujitsu are 1 & 2 in the US. The support structure is better and they offer on-going training to the industry. That and performance is value proposition you pay for. The US unitary manuf do not make their own mini-splits. Carrier, Trane, Lennox, etc private label off-shore manuf. Toshiba is a major supplier for them and Toshiba make good equipment, but I do not know if the feature set measures up. Years ago Fujitsu sold equipment to Friedrich, which drove me nuts in my market competing against myself. I found out that they did not sell the current product but only previous models. There are all kinds of shenanigans out there.I don’t think you can go wrong with Fujitsu or Mitsu, but you pay for it.

[Jarod Johnson]

I'm not going to be contributing any of my own thoughts to this thread, but I'd love to give RR Buildings a shout out for this type of build. His YT channel might answer a lot of the questions you have. He has several playlists of his different builds, but here are two I think might be a lot of help. He has ongoing releases of his current new shop build (including radiant heat) which might be of interest. Apologies if you're already familiar with his work.

Barndominium - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvo-lhQgsIOjilPTppx_Nt_2MkelIKrjH)

RR Shop Build 2.0 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvo-lhQgsIOj4ahn4Q2V_-gHlzkt4yFAH)

[Jim Becker]

Jarod, Kyle's current RR Shop Build 2.0 is going to be an amazing building. I also follow on socials and what's been on the 'Tube so far is just barely touching on what's to come!

[Aaron Liebling]

We're moving in May and have started to finalize plans for the workshop. I've gotten tons of quotes on steel buildings and have had a bit of trouble doing apples to apples comparisons, but think I've settled on a provider (a local Albuquerque company with the actual manufacturing by McElroy Metal).

I do have a question: is the upgrade to 24g walls (and roof) worth the cost? I could save around $5K by using 26g.My instinct is to go with the thicker material just because, but I don't want to waste money if it's really not needed.

Thoughts?

[Michael Burnside]

Nominal thickness differences are >25% between them. No brainer for me. Personally I'd go 24 gauge at least for the roof.

[Jim Becker]

No question, go for the thicker steel. Stiffer and will handle the load better. If I had chosen a steel building instead of the post frame I went with, it would have had the heavier steel and that's what I did my price comparisons with.