Leveling guidance

[Michael J Gardner]

Good Evening.

I'm fairly new to woodworking by hand and I'm trying to get better at 'leveling' surfaces. I'm currently building a table with hand tools (+ a circular saw and table saw for rips) and I can get the top "pretty" flat, but I doubt it's as flat as I think it is.

I'm currently using an amazon #4 (converted to scrub plane), an LN 5 1/2, and an old Stanley Type 7 #7 that I restored.

My question to those of you who don't use a powered jointer + planer; Do you utilize longer straight edges than a #7 or #8 in your workflow? I was looking at something like the Veritas Aluminum Straight Edge in 38" or 50" as a way to help identify low spots.

Right now the way I identify them is with reading shavings from the #7 and using the #7 on it's edge as a straight edge that I walk down the surface.

Obligatory project info and photos:

Project is a dining room table, Legs and top are in cherry. Aprons and dowels will likely be walnut. Drawbored mortise and tenons for the joinery, and cherry buttons to attach the top to the aprons. Legs are 2 3/8 thick squared from 10/4 stock. Going to put a taper on the inside of the legs. Top is from 8/4 stock and will have a bottom bevel with a land. Yes the top is very heavy, and yes I'm working on a plywood out-feed table.

This is the 10/4 stock before I had it completely milled down and cut into the legs.
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This is me doing some fitting for the jointing before glue-up.
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This is the top after flattening.
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And just a random pic of the #7 I cleaned up. She works pretty well for her age.
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[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have a very heavy duty long level designed for setting door jambs. It is 6' 6" long. I use it in conjunction with a work light. I have not used it on a whole table top but it is a big help when working on edges.

[Jim Koepke]

I see you have the winding sticks. As far as straight edges go, it is easy to make your own.

I have a copy of the procedure, send me a PM if you would like a copy. (last time I did a web search it was a bit of a trick to find it)

It was used to make a couple pairs of winding sticks > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331 < Winding sticks are essentially straight edges and can be made to any length one would like.

Another thing that works well is a few blocks of wood and a string.

That shows up in the post #13 in this thread > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272588

It was originally in this post by Stanley Covington > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?258087

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Working on a 7’ by 3’ table top. I used a combination of 38” & 50” aluminum straightedges and homemade winding sticks to do it (with advice along the way from the forum). You can get the LV straight edges but whether or not you do I’d recommend getting the book ‘Euclid’s Door’. It talks through making your own straight edge and other similar tools.

[Michael J Gardner]

Thanks for the link Jim. I'll definitely try to make some longer winding sticks. The one's I have currently are just from pine scraps that I made quickly out of necessity when taking twist out of the individual boards for the top.

I really like that line and block method you linked.

Tony I'll pick up that book. I just finished 'The Anarchist's Workbench'. Are there any other titles you'd recommend for someone learning the craft?

[Richard Coers]

If you are already using a table saw and circular saw, just take the top to a cabinet shop and run it through the thickness sander. What's one more power tool? If it would make you feel better, hand plane the top after you get it flat.

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks for the link Jim. I'll definitely try to make some longer winding sticks.

Tony I'll pick up that book. I just finished 'The Anarchist's Workbench'. Are there any other titles you'd recommend for someone learning the craft?
I’m a big fan of Scwarz books and videos. I’m also a fan of David charlesworth method. His newer videos are more watchable. The book ‘The New Traditional’ woodworker’ by Jim Tolpin was recommended to me early on and is an excellent resource (and has a project to make a straight edge). I’m reading ‘Joined’ and the companion book by the guys at Mortice and Tenon magazine that I got for Christmas They’re good but they wouldn’t be the first I’d recommend. That would probably be the Tolpin Book or one of the Anarchist books from C S.

‘’Kirby book on Dovetails is another good read but obviously specialized.

[Michael J Gardner]

Richard, I certainly thought of doing that but I really want to just put in the work and figure out how to perfect flattening by hand. The only reason I used the table and circular saw was out of necessity. The only saw I had at the time was a Japanese Ryobi pull saw, and it wanted to slide right regardless of the type of wood I put it through, or the thickness, when ripping. The table and circular saw belong to my land lady's husband. I did just restore an old 4 TPI rip cut panel saw. Medallion says Warranted Superior so it's likely a second. Plate was in good order, lots of steel left, and it was fun learning to restore and sharpen it. The handle had part of one horn broken off but I reshaped it with some files and put on some new finish. Works really well for ripping.

[Jim Koepke]

Michael, here is the image that I couldn't include in the text I sent you (in two parts).

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It includes some of the text so you can see where it lands overall.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Welcome Michael. One thing you can do is start looking for really nice quarter or flat sawn 2x4 when you are at the home store. Without knowing your location I don't know if you are looking at SYP or DF for construction lumber, but they are out there either way.

The good news is the current month is January and the mills are going to start spooling up for spring construction season more or less this week. You are looking for a stick of two of 2x4x96 that has no grain runout, no knots, no pith, and no mix of heart and sap wood. If you are out west like me you will be looking at Doug Fir and your instrument/shop tool grade DF is going to be the pink heartwood. I haven't picked through much SYP ever.

Once you find your Excalibur/ Glamdring 2x4 you will want it stickered and stacked with some weight on it for 18 months in climate control before you machine it s4s, and then you will have a reliable straight edge, 8 feet long, for $4.99.

For shorter spans, I have plenty good results with fiberglass levels. I have a 24" and 48" fiberglass levels on hand, they work fine for straight edges since I don't use them for much else. Not sure how much a 96" fiberglass level would cost; but you could take one home today and put it to work as soon as you carry it into your shop.

You could look at 8 foot angle iron, but stout enough to stay square and straight when held at one end is going to be heavy and expensive.

I have both a Bailey #6 and a #8 and am not looking too hard for a #7. If I had a #7 I doubt I would be looking too hard for a #8. LN makes good stuff, no question. In my advancing decrepitude I have a whole lot more use for a #5 than I do a # 5 1/2. If you are fairly young, something like a #3 or #4 as your general purpose smoother is probably next. Once you are over that hill a #5 is a whole lot cheaper than going to the shoulder doctor if you keep on leaning on the 5 1/2.

At some point on the age/money graph it will make a lot of sense to just buy a lunch box planer, keep your smoothing planes and figure out card scrapers. I have ass/u/me-d you are making furniture and not doors.

Besides your winding sticks, I see you have also set up a guide block so you can rapidly set angles with your honing guide. You are off to a terrific start. At this point my advice is to not get bogged down in side quests. Just write down the rabbit holes that distract you in some kind of journal, finish the dining table; then review the side quests recorded in your journal to see what you want to explore next.

You got this.

[Warren Mickley]

There are a couple of fallacies promoted by YouTubers like Chris Schwarz and David Charlesworth that you want to avoid. They demonstrate planing for the camera and then go back to their machinery for these tasks afterwards. Often in videos they start with a board that is already machine planed and it is questionable whether their planing actually improves flatness.

One fallacy is that using a plane of appropriate length will insure a flat panel. Any plane is capable of flattening a panel (longer planes are slightly easier), And any plane is capable of planing out a convex surface if used injudiciously.

The other fallacy is that there is a set procedure to be used (like plane across the grain, plane diagonals, etc) to flatten a board. The most efficient method is to use winding sticks and straightedges to identify the high spots and plane only them. Some boards don't need any crossgrain planing for instance.

Long straightedges are easier, but it is possible to discern flatness with one that is shorter than the board. It requires multiple checking and the ability to analyze the results, which I suspect you have. Using the plane as a straightedge is a clumsy beginner's trick, not used historically. Peter Nicholson in Mechanics Companion ​(1812) gives a procedure for making straightedges.

[mike stenson]

Neither Schwarz of Charles worth were, or are, youtubers. Your bias is showing.

[Reed Gray]

Well, still learning planes. That will probably last a life time, or the next 30 or so years, which ever comes first. Straight edges are mandatory. I would suggest starting small first, then stepping up to larger projects.

robo hippy

[Rafael Herrera]

Here's the book Warren is talking about.

https://archive.org/details/PeterNicholson1812/page/n237/mode/1up

Even though the methods described there are not very detailed, you'll quickly figure out what to do. Going after the high spots is the most efficient way to start the process, as opposed to just bulldoze through the whole board with a scrub plane.

[Tom M King]

The real reason for going across grain or at a diagonal is that it's just easier to hog off wood with your body mass behind the plane.

[Tony Wilkins]

I started a thread not long ago that described my attempt to flatten a 7’ by 3’ walnut tabletop with using the methods (to the best of my understanding) the Schwartz describes in a few places. I started with rough boards. You can look at the responses I got, mostly that it was too much work or that it wouldn’t work the way I hoped. I stuck with it. Now I’m not the greatest woodworker in the world and have severe physical limitations. I was surprised at just how easy it was and am thrilled with the results. You can judge for yourself.

[Rafael Herrera]

Here's someone flattening an actual roughly sawn board start to finish. No subtle product placements and even using an usually ignored plane.

https://youtu.be/oEdgF8NDsB0

[Mark Rainey]

I started a thread not long ago that described my attempt to flatten a 7’ by 3’ walnut tabletop with using the methods (to the best of my understanding) the Schwartz describes in a few places. I started with rough boards. You can look at the responses I got, mostly that it was too much work or that it wouldn’t work the way I hoped. I stuck with it. Now I’m not the greatest woodworker in the world and have severe physical limitations. I was surprised at just how easy it was and am thrilled with the results. You can judge for yourself.
Tony, did you mean to post a picture of your finished table top? As far as the responses to your planing of a large table, I think you got great advice, especially from a few Neanderthals who work mostly in hand tools. I wish they would give live demonstrations, but in the absence of that, their wisdom is invaluable. Keep us posted on your progress. I will post my finished trestle table.

[Mark Rainey]

Here's someone flattening an actual roughly sawn board start to finish. No subtle product placements and even using an usually ignored plane.

https://youtu.be/oEdgF8NDsB0

Rafael, I will probably review the video tomorrow, but if it was Warren, I would stay up tonight to view it.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, did you mean to post a picture of your finished table top? As far as the responses to your planing of a large table, I think you got great advice, especially from a few Neanderthals who work mostly in hand tools. I wish they would give live demonstrations, but in the absence of that, their wisdom is invaluable. Keep us posted on your progress. I will post my finished trestle table.
Did not think about the picture but here…
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[Mike Allen1010]

Aluminum straightedges from Lee Valley are pretty affordable, especially considering how much you’ll use them -straight, light and stable are key for straight edges. Need them for joining longer edges.

[Eric Brown]

Aluminum straightedges from Lee Valley are pretty affordable, especially considering how much you’ll use them -straight, light and stable are key for straight edges. Need them for joining longer edges.

I simply use a 48" aluminum rule. Light and easy to handle. Straight enough for me.

[Michael J Gardner]

I picked one up from Lee Valley, I think the 38 inch one was what I went with. Hopefully it will help me build longer straight edges too. Been reading the documents Jim gave me and some directions from the Anarchists Tool chest.

I have another question for all you gentlemen. I was able to make some good progress this week putting bevels onto the bottom of my tabletop. I have a question about using a scrub (or foreplane, cambered jack etc) with the grain. For the most part it went swimmingly, but I hit an issue around a knot that I have in the edge of my board. In the picture you can see I filled it in with Epoxy. There were two of them, each about an inch deep. One was within 4 inches of the edge where I did the bevel. My issue was the weird grain direction caused the scrub plane to 'knick' the tissue in that area instead of taking it out in clean bands. I assume the best solution to this would be don't use a board with knots. But I'm sort of learning as I go. I assume if I ever hit this situation in the future, swap to a finer cutting tool for that section to avoid the tear out. Luckily the tear out won't be visible from normal viewing angles.

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Here is a quick pick of the progress. I'm done with the rough bezels on all 4 sides now. I just need to clean it up and get everything to the perfect depth. Doing the last bit of work with my 5 1/2. It took a lot of work but it was a ton of fun doing this part. Seeing it come together is quite the feeling.
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So I had some trouble with my initial glue up. The edge jointing was perfect everywhere except this one spot. The plan is to to tape off the bevel along the joint, flip the top, and fill it with a small amount of epoxy. I really should have used more than 5 bar clamps when I glued this entire thing up, but it was what I had.
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[Eric Brown]

I picked one up from Lee Valley, I think the 38 inch one was what I went with. Hopefully it will help me build longer straight edges too. Been reading the documents Jim gave me and some directions from the Anarchists Tool chest.

I have another question for all you gentlemen. I was able to make some good progress this week putting bevels onto the bottom of my tabletop. I have a question about using a scrub (or foreplane, cambered jack etc) with the grain. For the most part it went swimmingly, but I hit an issue around a knot that I have in the edge of my board. In the picture you can see I filled it in with Epoxy. There were two of them, each about an inch deep. One was within 4 inches of the edge where I did the bevel. My issue was the weird grain direction caused the scrub plane to 'knick' the tissue in that area instead of taking it out in clean bands. I assume the best solution to this would be don't use a board with knots. But I'm sort of learning as I go. I assume if I ever hit this situation in the future, swap to a finer cutting tool for that section to avoid the tear out. Luckily the tear out won't be visible from normal viewing angles.

514111

Here is a quick pick of the progress. I'm done with the rough bezels on all 4 sides now. I just need to clean it up and get everything to the perfect depth. Doing the last bit of work with my 5 1/2. It took a lot of work but it was a ton of fun doing this part. Seeing it come together is quite the feeling.
514113

So I had some trouble with my initial glue up. The edge jointing was perfect everywhere except this one spot. The plan is to to tape off the bevel along the joint, flip the top, and fill it with a small amount of epoxy. I really should have used more than 5 bar clamps when I glued this entire thing up, but it was what I had.
514112

When you get to those spots you can try approaching it from different angles, skewing the plane. A little denatured alcohol can also help.

[Warren Mickley]

When you get to those spots you can try approaching it from different angles, skewing the plane. A little denatured alcohol can also help.

We have been using the double iron jack plane for 250 years.

[Rafael Herrera]

Try a thin wedge to close the gaps.

[Mike Shields]

The second picture showing the shavings on the floor is great!