Milling S2S 4/4 lumber

[Brian Runau]

Is it correct to say that S2S that is actually 13/16" is 4/4? I have had trouble with this for projects. I have a Grizzly G0586 8" jointer and do pretty good not milling wedges on it. Some of the lumber I have purchased from my local supplier, Northwest Lumber in Indianapolis, has been problematic.

When I have brought it home and it is acclimated for a few weeks and I start to break it down by length then cut the widths and it releases the internal stresses. I have had some problems with their S2S not having enough material getting it flat on one side, letting it sit overnight and then flattening the first side again, just skimming it, then planing it to 3/4". Some time I wind up not having enough material getting it down to 3/4". I do my best to pick out flat boards and they are flat, but there can be some twist or other stuff in the board even though it is S2S. I have gotten in the habit of purchasing rough sawn 4/4 since this doe not cause issues. has enough material for me to mill it.

Is this me?

Thanks.

Brian

[Jim Becker]

My opinion is that if you need to flatten, buying S2S so close to your final dimension is not really going to work well for exactly the reason you describe. S2S is offered to "avoid" the flattening and thicknessing steps, IMHO. As an alternative to the S2S, I'd choose "hit or miss" skim planed to get lumber that needs less stuff removed while still permitting you to flatten and thickness with quality to the actual thickness you need. (I personally work from rough lumber the majority of the time)

[Brian Runau]

My opinion is that if you need to flatten, buying S2S so close to your final dimension is not really going to work well for exactly the reason you describe. S2S is offered to "avoid" the flattening and thicknessing steps, IMHO. As an alternative to the S2S, I'd choose "hit or miss" skim planed to get lumber that needs less stuff removed while still permitting you to flatten and thickness with quality to the actual thickness you need. (I personally work from rough lumber the majority of the time)

Thanks. Me too on the rough lumber. is it correct to call S2S 4/4? Bought some plain sawn white oak from a mill 2 hrs south of me and I came up short and need 5 or 6 pcs to finish and the local guy only has S2S which is problematic. I will drive 1 hr north to get the rough sawn stuff I need. Thanks Jim. Brian

[mike stenson]

It's fine to call it 4/4, since they also declare that it's S2S.

[Michael Burnside]

I personally would not call S2S lumber just 4/4. I would call it "S2S 4/4" lumber. That said, I don't think anyone would be confused if you said 4/4, it's just that technically it's been milled to closer to 13/16 if you're lucky and you're likely to be paying a bit more for it.

It's hard to build fine furniture with S2S unless the lumber is really nice and straight. For small pieces, charcuterie boards, etc. it's great, but for longer pieces, IMHO it's not worth the hassle if you have the ability to mill 4/4 yourself. I do use S2S occasionally, but most of the time I start with rough lumber.

[mike stenson]

Ok, so what dimension is S2S? I've seen 4/4 - 12/4 S2S. In any case, it's really somewhat of a nominal dimension.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks. Me too on the rough lumber. is it correct to call S2S 4/4? Bought some plain sawn white oak from a mill 2 hrs south of me and I came up short and need 5 or 6 pcs to finish and the local guy only has S2S which is problematic. I will drive 1 hr north to get the rough sawn stuff I need. Thanks Jim. Brian

I guess it's OK - but with the S2S, I'm not sure there is a standardized thickness - 13/16 ? 7/8? 3/4?
Kinda needs to be specified. Which obviates the value of "4/4".

On the shortage point - you and I are teamed like quarks on teeter-totter. You're underage is balanced by my overage. I never - never - want to risk being short. Especially when I get elite stuff shipped in. With rough sawn, I plan a 70% yield. I have an excellent stock of stray pieces of beautiful
QSWO, QS Sycamore; QS air-dried walnut; curly maple........It's a sickness.:D

[Lloyd McKinlay]

The National Hardwood Lumber Association rules for measurement and inspection of hardwood provides some guidance. Follow the link and look at page 8. https://issuu.com/nhla/docs/2015_rulebook_final

No idea if the rules have been modified in the last eight years.

[Michael Burnside]

Ok, so what dimension is S2S? I've seen 4/4 - 12/4 S2S. In any case, it's really somewhat of a nominal dimension.

Sorry, my bad, I meant to say S2S 4/4. I would not just say "4/4".

The lumber store I regularly shop at will S2S anything using their double-sided planer. It takes 3/32 from both sides, that's the ONLY option. So 13/16 for 4/4 lumber (nominally) and you can do the math for other sizes.

[mike stenson]

So yea, we agree... if they declare it as S2S, it's all good :D

[Michael Burnside]

So yea, we agree... if they declare it as S2S, it's all good :D

Yep, thanks for pointing out the error in my post. I updated the correction for posterity.

[Larry Edgerton]

Surfaced 2 sides, can be any thickness.

I buy 4/4 and have it skip planed to 15/16. The reason I do this is to make my planer knives last longer. They take all the dirt off with their rough planer. Once in a while I get some that will not make 3/4", but I just save it for drawer sides. Its just the way it is.

[John TenEyck]

4/4 must be a minimum of 1" thick after drying, and so on with thicker increments. I cut 4/4 on my bandsaw mill at 1-1/8" and it's always well over 1" after drying. Commercial mills cut it closer, I'm sure.

Skip planed can be anything the mill decides to make it. I like skip planed lumber because I get to see some of the grain and it also saves me some work to flaten/thickness it. The skip planed 4/4 I buy typically is 15/16" thick and that allows me to get 13/16" out of it, sometimes a little more if I'd like.

I pick my own boards so anything with cup, twist, etc. doesn't go on my cart. That maximizes yield when I work it.

If your supplier doesn't have flat skip planed lumber, buy rough sawn or go elsewhere.

John

[Larry Edgerton]

4/4 must be a minimum of 1" thick after drying, and so on with thicker increments. I cut 4/4 on my bandsaw mill at 1-1/8" and it's always well over 1" after drying. Commercial mills cut it closer, I'm sure.

Skip planed can be anything the mill decides to make it. I like skip planed lumber because I get to see some of the grain and it also saves me some work to flaten/thickness it. The skip planed 4/4 I buy typically is 15/16" thick and that allows me to get 13/16" out of it, sometimes a little more if I'd like.

I pick my own boards so anything with cup, twist, etc. doesn't go on my cart. That maximizes yield when I work it.

If your supplier doesn't have flat skip planed lumber, buy rough sawn or go elsewhere.

John

John, I buy from the same mill I have for thirty five years or so and they treat me good, but like you I am more cautious when buying elsewhere. I don't see the wood before it is delivered, and in that time they have only disappointed me once, some case hardened Tulip, but they made it right. I am fortunate to have such a supplier.

[Ron Citerone]

If I had a jointer and planer I would steer clear of S2S personally.

[Richard Coers]

I agree with the hit or miss planing to 15/16". If I'm super critical about the color, I go to the 5/4 S2S bin at the hardwood store and shop for consistant color. Almost alway shop for color with cherry and walnut.

[mike stenson]

I miss having 5/4 and 6/4 stock available. Such a luxury, especially as I dislike the look of 3/4 finished stock in general (I prefer 7/8" to 1", and that means 8/4 here).

[Brian Runau]

If I had a jointer and planer I would steer clear of S2S personally.

I do, but they are the only game in town and don't carry plain sawn white oak in rough sawn 4/4. I need 5 to 6 pcs to finish a project. Next dry day I'll make the hour drive to the next closest lumber yard. Brian

[Warren Lake]

what does 4/4 rough come in down there, just approx. I used to always see 1 1/8 over and even 1 3/16. Then it became just over one inch, maybe 1/16 over. Told some mills still do it the old way. I get they get more yield and large volume would make a diff.

If you build thicker and make doors 1" what is your 5/4 like compared. Better selection and or quality in 4/4 or? Guess it depends on your area as well and what mills do. Sorry to highjack if you want it moved will.

[Darrell Bade]

Brian
I have never bought from Northwest but always heard they are good. This is no help to you on this project but check out Frank Miller Lumber for future needs if you never have. They deliver to Indianapolis. I buy from them sight unseen and have always been happy, like their QS Red Oak. Unfortunately as far south as they deliver now is Bloomington, I meet them in the Walmart parking lot and transfer about 300 board feet at a time from their truck to my trailer. I have them plane to 7/8" to save me time and still allow some for joiner/planer/widebelt.

[Jimmy Harris]

I get the feeling that each mill will be a little different. Most are independently owned and have their own way of doing things. Sometimes different batches of the same type of wood will be different, if they got it from different sources. Rockler and Woodcraft are the only places that I can trust I'll get lumber in the exact dimension they have them listed as. But you pay a premium for their lumber, so I would expect that. And even then, finding straight boards that are usable to make use of their exact dimensions takes a lot of luck.

At my local mill that I typically by lumber from, it's not unusual to find wood as much as an eight of an inch plus or minus what it's sold as. Though they tend to err on the side of generosity more often than not, which is why I like shopping there. Their S2S 5/4 tends to be 1.125" wide and skip planed on the back and off side, so getting a true and straight 4/4 is usually possible, if you don't have to rip the wood or you get lucky if you do (no warping).

So I always bring a tape measure and moisture meter (or use theirs) and check each board for warp, twist, knots, checking and grain. That way you know exactly what you're getting. And especially if you're buying sight unseen, like online, always assume the worst so you can only be pleasantly surprised. It's not that they're trying to cheat you. It's just that you're not buying from a retail store, so there are going to be quirks you don't know about that they'll assume you do.

[Tom Bussey]

I agree with Larry Edgerton skipped plane. It more or less helps flatten the board and does take out some of the bows and twists. It also allows you to see some of the grain and figures.
My question is why do you buy wood from a suppler, that is probably kiln dried from 6-8 percent. The relative humidity here in Iowa is roughly 10 to 12 percent. The greater the difference the greater the flow. What is the difference between 8 to 110 percent. Then set in a store or in a facility are that is open to humidity. All humidity effects only size. Humidly effect wood very slowly and if you stack one piece on another the one on the bottom may never change size until the one on to is remove from on top how much time to you work in you Shop I mean most hobbyist are lucky to get 4 hours in the shop a week. How long will it take just to rough cut to rough size all of the details and are the pieces rough cut to size

Yes Ii know every one thinks one has to acclimate wood because it is what very one says. But the old saying that every one used to say is if man was suppose to fly God would have giver him wings. That was until that theory was proven wrong. And then there was Fulton's folly which involved the railroad.

I live in Iowa which has one of the widest range of humidity swings in the US. I buy wood, bring it home and start cutting it up. Try it you may find out that acclimating wood is not of to much use. I mean that the world is not flat as most, in earlier years thought and the fact is no body ever fell off the world.

I know one wants to do a good job and think that the wood needs to be acclimated all I am trying to say is (try) building something without acclimating it and se if you can tell the difference .

[George Yetka]

It also depends where you buy it. Hearne in PA sells 4/4 rough that will usually leave you with 4/4 finished. I went in to buy 5/4 to make sure I got what i needed and the 4/4 measured 1-1/8 or more so I got that. Ive been a few places where 4/4 rough was really 15/16" and you would be lucky to get 3/4 said and done. This past summer I order 3/4 s4s really ended up s3s and the faces were very rough I wouldnt have been able to get 3/4 out of them.

[Larry Edgerton]

Properly kiln dried wood, as opposed to air dried will not be affected by moisture changes in the same way because of cellular changes in the wood. Also, it kills all pests like powder post beetles. Kiln dried will always be more dimensionally stable. Natural wood flooring is an example of a product that needs to be acclimated because of the width, and definitely needs to be kiln dried to limit individual piece changes. House trim is another.

I live in Michigan up by the Mackinaw Bridge so am in between the great lakes so I get the humidity swings. Totally dry in winter, humidity in the 90's in the summer.

[Brian Runau]

Brian
I have never bought from Northwest but always heard they are good. This is no help to you on this project but check out Frank Miller Lumber for future needs if you never have. They deliver to Indianapolis. I buy from them sight unseen and have always been happy, like their QS Red Oak. Unfortunately as far south as they deliver now is Bloomington, I meet them in the Walmart parking lot and transfer about 300 board feet at a time from their truck to my trailer. I have them plane to 7/8" to save me time and still allow some for joiner/planer/widebelt.

Darrell:

NW has good quality, but more expensive than others. Don't carry true 4/4 plain sawn white oak only S@S which I can't work with. Need a few boards to finish a project. Changed the design and came up short as a result. I have been to Frank Miller for quarter sawn oak and when I need to stock up for upcoming projects. Last few tears I have been using these guys 2 hrs south of me. Much better pricing, but not know for QS oak. I buy @ 900lbs when I make the trip.

https://bonesteelmillandmolding.com/
(https://bonesteelmillandmolding.com/)
I dove up to these folks yesterday, @ 1 hr north of me, closer than others. Good quality, but $8 board ft for plain sawn white oak.

https://www.hollingsworthlumber.com/

(https://www.hollingsworthlumber.com/)Brian

[andrew whicker]

Don't you have MacBeath in Indy? I live in SLC and that's my primary supplier. It's worth it to have even a small account (10% savings). They aren't the best prices, but they are the only one around here that lets you sort thru their lumber.

Depending on the lumber species, what they have in the bin may already be skip planed / basically planed already. Walnut and oak seem to at least have on side planed. Maple is always rough cut. I'm not sure why this is, but just something I notice.

I also like 5/4 more than 4/4, but unless it's a popular species, you have to jump to 6/4 or 8/4. For my area at least.

[Brian Runau]

Don't you have MacBeath in Indy? I live in SLC and that's my primary supplier. It's worth it to have even a small account (10% savings). They aren't the best prices, but they are the only one around here that lets you sort thru their lumber.

Depending on the lumber species, what they have in the bin may already be skip planed / basically planed already. Walnut and oak seem to at least have on side planed. Maple is always rough cut. I'm not sure why this is, but just something I notice.

I also like 5/4 more than 4/4, but unless it's a popular species, you have to jump to 6/4 or 8/4. For my area at least.\

Andrew, they are about 1 hr south of me and last time I checked they did not have a retail outlet there for hobbyists. Mill and corporate office seem to be located there. Thanks. Brian

[Darrell Bade]

Brian
Thanks for the link to bone steel mill molding, they are somewhat close to me.

I also use a little lumber yard in Oden. Got some Oak Plywood there yesterday.