Jay Bates Bandsaw Accident

[tim walker]

Hope its ok to post this link but it is a great learning curve . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Z1Q3cf5iw&t=723s

[Erik Loza]

I actually had a similar accident when someone asked me to make a couple of drink coasters out of a single piece of round stock at a trade show, once. Foolishly, thought I could hold the workpiece by hand. No mitre fence or jig. Exact same result he experienced. In any case, it’s very dangerous to cut round workpieces unless they are locked against a fence, screwed into a jig, etc.

Erik

[Richard Coers]

That was not an accident of not paying attention. It is an accident of lack of experience and education. There have been rules on how to cut round parts since I started woodworking in 1972 and for decades before that.

[Jim Becker]

I believe there is an existing discussion on this video

[Edward Weber]

That was not an accident of not paying attention. It is an accident of lack of experience and education. There have been rules on how to cut round parts since I started woodworking in 1972 and for decades before that.

I agree Richard
We have discussed this at length not that long ago,
If you pay attention, he mentions that this is not the first time this has happened to him.
If you don't learn from your own mistakes, I don't know what to tell you.

[Lee Schierer]

I actually had a similar accident when someone asked me to make a couple of drink coasters out of a single piece of round stock at a trade show, once. Foolishly, thought I could hold the workpiece by hand. No mitre fence or jig. Exact same result he experienced. In any case, it’s very dangerous to cut round workpieces unless they are locked against a fence, screwed into a jig, etc.

Erik


The same thing can happen when cutting round objects on a table saw.

[Bill Dufour]

I notice his blade guard is raised several inches higher then it should be exposing more blade near his fingers then required. I could see it having to be no lower then then top of the fence. it is a good bit higher then that. I was taught it should be about 1/2 a finger width above the top of the work so a finger can not slip under it and touch the blade.
BilLD

[Wes Grass]

Round pieces, cut about 2/3rds, and rotate 90°.

[Mark Balmer]

I think of myself as pretty safety conscience and have done a fair amount of remodeling/construction/woodworking at a non-pro level since I was a kid with very few close calls. Lots of ladders, chain saws, nail guns, utility knives, and unguarded table saws. Yet the worst incident involved a bandsaw while trying to do a quick, unplanned project to help someone out.

Years ago while a friend was visiting he asked if I could cut a single piece of 2" black ABS plastic sewer pipe for him. The 14" bandsaw, which I hadn't had very long, was right there and for some reason, instead of using a hand hacksaw like I usual did because a round piece in a chop saw seemed a little dicey, I flipped on the bandsaw and started to hand feed it. I knew enough to keep the kerf open, but I hadn't considered the downward/rotational force or must have thought I could manage it. Made it to the last 3/8" and I must have let it rotate just enough for it to self-feed which closed the kerf right up. We know one of the pieces hit the ceiling, something else, and the floor, but only by the impact sounds - you couldn't track it with your eye. Then the piece spun madly on the floor at an amazing speed for more than a few seconds. My friend was standing about 3' from the saw holding one of his kids. By just random chance no one got hurt.

mark

[Kevin Jenness]

Round pieces, cut about 2/3rds, and rotate 90°.

No. Anytime the cut is unsupported, as it is when entering the edge of a cylinder, there is danger of rotation and kickback. Pieces like that should be blocked or held in a cradle of some type securely enough to prevent rolling. Some overhung cuts may be successfully made by an experienced operator like Sam Maloof but the risk needs to be well understood before making a sketchy cut like that.

[Derek Kessler]

Wow, I don't see many videos like this. It shows just how fast things can go south in the workshop. Glad he chose to upload so other woodworkers can learn and not make the same mistake.

[Tom Levy]

No. Anytime the cut is unsupported, as it is when entering the edge of a cylinder, there is danger of rotation and kickback. Pieces like that should be blocked or held in a cradle of some type securely enough to prevent rolling. Some overhung cuts may be successfully made by an experienced operator like Sam Maloof but the risk needs to be well understood before making a sketchy cut like that.

There was already a discussion about this, there is no safe way to do the operation from the video. Round things need a jig/cradle to support the piece along the entire front to back.

Interestingly if you read Maloof interviews he is upfront in declaring that he did injure himself numerous times with unsupported bandsaw cuts by having the piece catch and slam down with his fingers between the table and piece. Better than losing a digit or three, but still even he is clear that it's a great way to get injured.

[Brian Tymchak]

Here's the link (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?305613-Pretty-lucky-guy) to that earlier thread.

[Edward Weber]

Thanks Brian

[Steve Demuth]

It continues to amaze me that even knowledgeable machine users make mistakes such as you describe. I did it just before Christmas - I wanted to cut a slice out of an oddly shaped burl. I absolutely know better than to make cuts on a bandsaw that leave the wood unsupported under the blade, but the burl had two sides cut square, so I had a clear path to a fully supported cut. Then, halfway through the cut, realizing that the burl would not fully fit under the saw guides in the orientation I had it, I rotated the piece myself to get clearance, and, nearly through the cut, BANG - the saw grabs the burl and smashes my fingers into the saw bridge and blade guide. No blood on the outside, but vicious bruises on two fingers.

This was not due to inexperience. I was making an unusual cut in an ad hoc way, and didn't think through the consequences of adjusting on the fly. A recipe for mistakes any day.

[Mark Balmer]

I think part of it is that 1) we don't normally think of a bandsaw as a rotational machine, and 2) we also think of it as a relatively safe tool compared to many other machines. I have had fewer issues with high risk operations and the close calls tend to be in simpler, seemingly low risk situations. Some of it may be focus and some just the ratio of high to low risk tasks.

There's also the severity and frequency factors. I'm careful with my miter saw partly because even though I'm careful I manage to jam it or have it fling small offcuts every now and then - good little reminders when I get a little lax. I use powered hand-drills much more often, and other than maybe dropping it, the battery-powered drills with clutches are very safe in my experience. And then you pull out your dad's old hole-hawg right angle drill for electrical work and think "Hey, I'm just drilling holes" - when things go wrong with that, they really go wrong. I once read that drill presses accounted for a very low number/percentage of injuries, but had one of the highest fatality rates (ie clothing or hair getting caught).

My biggest take away from this thread:
How easy it is for even very experience operators to get in to trouble when combining 1) a little distraction and/or hurry, 2) an odd/new operation and 3) using a machine they feel is at the safer end of the spectrum.

[Doug Garson]

My biggest take away from this thread:
How easy it is for even very experience operators to get in to trouble when combining 1) a little distraction and/or hurry, 2) an odd/new operation and 3) using a machine they feel is at the safer end of the spectrum.
One additional take away is repetitive operations. The first time you do an unusual cut can be dangerous because you may not be sure how the workpiece will react but even a routine operation can be dangerous as your mind goes into neutral and you stop concentrating on what you are doing. In Jay's case he was doing multiple cuts and stopped paying enough attention to which way he was feeding the piece.

[Edward Weber]

In Jay's case he was doing multiple cuts and stopped paying enough attention to which way he was feeding the piece.

Either way he would have fed that piece would have been dangerous.
I wish everyone would stop making excuses for him and possibly tell him to take responsibility for his actions. Maybe do a thorough analyses of what he did and what he should have done and not repeat what he did.
Showing videos of people doing unsafe operations, who are lucky enough not to get injured, serves no one without further insight. He's already been lucky at least twice, how long before he either learns or becomes unlucky?
Simply suggesting that turning the piece around is nowhere near enough IMO


Disclaimer, I've cut innumerable round pieces on my bandsaw/s over the last few decades, I have all my digits. This and the statements in the previous thread are my professional opinion.

[Mel Fulks]

Bandsaws are too quiet . A good safety engineer would design it to make intermittent noises, and put big ugly monster heads on top
of those rounded shoulders.

[Chris Parks]

Either way he would have fed that piece would have been dangerous.


Not quite correct. If a sled is used with the piece clamped to it cutting round pieces is safe to do. The use of sleds on BS's is yet to be widely known for some reason.

[Mark Hennebury]

Living is dangerous.. people who have knowledge, skill, experience, understand the danger and have the focus and commitment to deal with it. The same operation done by other less prepared will send themselves to the emergency room. The same operation does not present the same risk for different people. It's all dangerous, but more so for some than others.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l272IFKogHU&t=85s

[Doug Garson]

Either way he would have fed that piece would have been dangerous.
I wish everyone would stop making excuses for him and possibly tell him to take responsibility for his actions. Maybe do a thorough analyses of what he did and what he should have done and not repeat what he did.
Showing videos of people doing unsafe operations, who are lucky enough not to get injured, serves no one without further insight. He's already been lucky at least twice, how long before he either learns or becomes unlucky?
Simply suggesting that turning the piece around is nowhere near enough IMO


Disclaimer, I've cut innumerable round pieces on my bandsaw/s over the last few decades, I have all my digits. This and the statements in the previous thread are my professional opinion.
Did you watch the same video I watched? He admitted he was wrong several times, and explained why. He posted the video as a warning to others not to make same mistake and as someone already said there was a thread on this video several months ago. In that thread we discussed that he did not do a good job of explaining the correct safe way to do it but at least he educated some people on how dangerous cutting a cylinder on the bandsaw is. Was this a perfect video? No, but it still might save someone from making the same mistake even if they have to look elsewhere to find out the safe way to do it,

[Mark Hennebury]

I think that we would be better to assess operations on a scale of risk, and operators on a level of ability, to accurately arrive at the probability of success. I don't believe that just saying the operation has a high level of danger and should not be done. You have to factor in the operator to put a value on the chance of success. They work in combination. Too many are quick to condemn an operator for doing a high risk operation without knowing anything about the operator. If you applied that to sports we wouldn't have any. Obviously what the guy Bates did on the bandsaw had a high degree of risk, but was doable, he however did not have the level of ability to do it.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are just times when you need to walk away from the shop. This is hard if you are in business, but still...

Case in point: On the first anniversary after my wife left I was working and did something that I know I should not do, but my mind was elsewhere. A large piece on the saw cocked and caught and the corner of the piece drove itself into the middle of my hand. Creepiest injury I have ever seen. Had to have the fifth, fourth - third bones in my hand reconstructed. Stainless rods, tendons reattached. Lost 5 months work. I knew I was distracted, love of my life and all that jazz, and I should have taken the day off. Sometimes smart people do dumb things.

[Edward Weber]

I think that we would be better to assess operations on a scale of risk, and operators on a level of ability, to accurately arrive at the probability of success. I don't believe that just saying the operation has a high level of danger and should not be done. You have to factor in the operator to put a value on the chance of success. They work in combination. Too many are quick to condemn an operator for doing a high risk operation without knowing anything about the operator. If you applied that to sports we wouldn't have any. Obviously what the guy Bates did on the bandsaw had a high degree of risk, but was doable, he however did not have the level of ability to do it.

I agree, although I have no idea of operators "level of ability".
On a scale of 1-10, the cut can be anywhere on the scale, from caged in a form using push blocks (1) to free-hand with no safety devices (10). The way he went about it put the cut at a higher level than it needed to be.
So for me, it's not the operation at all, it's the operator. It's his responsibility to make the conditions of the cut safer.

Half of the time spent being a woodworker is figuring out how to cut, attach, or shape wood in a safe efficient manner.

[Edward Weber]

Not quite correct. If a sled is used with the piece clamped to it cutting round pieces is safe to do. The use of sleds on BS's is yet to be widely known for some reason.
I was referring to simply turning the piece around, as some have suggested, to have the handle first and act as a support to keep the piece from rotating.
Safer, a bit, but not the answer.

Why people don't use sleds is in direct proportion with those who still struggle with blade drift.

Align the blade, fence and miter slot parallel and sleds become much more widely used