Dust Collector - Wifey says, "Just get it." (Questions)

[T.J. Mahaffey]

So, I was cutting a couple of MDF circles with my router today and although I wasn't doing alot, the fine dust made its way into our basement and some into the house. This gave the family a bit of a sneezing fit. When LOML complained, I told her I needed a dust collector to remedy that. She said, "Just do it."

So, that being said, I thought the Harbor Freight 2hp collector would be my choice based on the rave reviews on WoodNet and the price, of course. (I wouldn't consider the HF if it hadn't gotten such raves on WoodNet.)

My Question: - If I get it and buy replacement (better) bags, will this help with the fine dust? I've heard about dust collectors spreading very fine dust everywhere when run. Is there some way to remedy this?

My shop is separated from our main basement by a small window-like opening, which I will cover soon. But my shop is pretty small, so I'd like to see about locating the dust collector in the basement, near the opening and running DC pipe through it and into my shop.

With the DC in the basement, I have to be able to keep the DC from making its own mess in there.

Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

[tod evans]

tj, if you plan on working in a shop attached to your living enviorment a cyclone of the pentz variety will probably be the most cost effective way to keep dust contained......02 tod

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Thanks for your reply, Tod. But a cyclone appears out of reach for me.
I just can't afford it. Although I understand the benefits, for the most part, I have to see if I can solve my problem for around $200, as best I can.

[Marcus Ward]

TJ, I have the HF 2hp dust collector and it does a great job. I don't even notice much fine dust when it's running. I will check again today and see how it does. I hear spraying the inside of the bags with fabric softener before using them can cut down on fine dust even further (I didn't do that). For the money I don't think the HF dust collector can be beat. Make sure you print out the internet page and take it to the store because the in store price is ridiculous.

[Bob Huddleston]

I have a 2 HP Jet dust collector that does a fine job. It is a fairly quiet, was not that expensive compared to a cyclone, and for a semi-novice like me, a perfect fit.

I know about the dust. But for me it is not what I create as much as what I bring with me back up the steps. I must look like Pig Pen from the Peanuts strip on some days, trailing a cloud of dust. Oh, well...:D

[Jim Becker]

The system you are looking at will work well as a chip collector and offer "reasonable" fine dust performance with the updated filter bags. However, not with your router. The hoods on a router are way too small to use with a dust collector, which depends upone large amounts of air to move chips and dust. A shop vac is still best for small tools like routers and sanders because they are designed to work with lower air volumns and high pressures...which is what you get with a small hose and small dust pickup. You may want to consider working your MDF outdoors for operations that you cannot adequately collect the dust...it's nasty stuff; very fine and quite "not nice" from a health perspective.

[Byron Trantham]

So, I was cutting a couple of MDF circles with my router today and although I wasn't doing alot, the fine dust made its way into our basement and some into the house. This gave the family a bit of a sneezing fit. When LOML complained, I told her I needed a dust collector to remedy that. She said, "Just do it."

T.J. I don't know of any dust collector that will solve this problem. Using a router not mounted to a table/dust collection box is messy at best. MDF is particularly bad because the dust is more harmful and very fine. One item that might help is an overhead air filter; JDS, Jet or what ever. I have one and it does a surprising job of keeping the air free (or significantly cleaner) of dust. Also, some routers have dust collection attachments that can be hooked up to a shop vac. Good luck on your search for a DC. They're hard to buy - so many options!:confused:

[Jim Becker]

The air filtration that Byron mentions will help scrub the air of your shop of suspended fines, but not before you will have already breathed them in and not before a "bunch" of it already will have migrated into your attached home. Collection at the source is the only way to effectively control dust. BTW, you should always wear personal protection when working with materials like MDF, even if you have "good" dust collection.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

The air filtration that Byron mentions will help scrub the air of your shop of suspended fines, but not before you will have already breathed them in and not before a "bunch" of it already will have migrated into your attached home. Collection at the source is the only way to effectively control dust. BTW, you should always wear personal protection when working with materials like MDF, even if you have "good" dust collection.

Jim,

Yes, I do. I have a fitted respirator that I use whenevery I work with MDF (not often) or are using my router.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

All,

So, let's say I started doing any and all MDF work outside.

Can you see any better option (aside from a cyclone) over the HF 2hp DC with a wynn canister conversion? (For around $200)

[Jerry Olexa]

TJ I have a HF DC and have rebuilt it w a Winn Cannister kit (excellent), added a nuetral vane and purchased new bags. It ends up a credible DC for that price range. Cyclones are much better but at a diff price level . There is an expert on this forum, Brad Olsen for this type conversion. Send him a PM. G'Luck

[Richard Wolf]

I know I'm getting older and suffer from CRS. But, someone told me if you dump a pound of flour in your dust collector, the standard bags become more effective. Seems the flour makes the openings in the weave of the bags smaller. Someone help me out.

Richard

[Charlie Plesums]

I know I'm getting older and suffer from CRS. But, someone told me if you dump a pound of flour in your dust collector, the standard bags become more effective. Seems the flour makes the openings in the weave of the bags smaller. Someone help me out.

Richard
I haven't heard of the flour trick, but I did get an after-market bag from American Fabric Filter, and they have a tutorial on bags that explains the "dust cake" that forms on the inside of the bags, and provides the filtration for fine particles. See www.americanfabricfilter.com/SO%20YOU%20WANT%20A%201%20page%201.html (http://www.americanfabricfilter.com/SO%20YOU%20WANT%20A%201%20page%201.html) Flour might be a way to get started.

If I had it to do over, I would skip the money spent on my 2 hp 2 bag collector, and the optional .3 micron bags, and the after market bag, and go directly to a cyclone. I couldn't bear to make the larger investment on dust collection, so I did it in several steps, and still don't have a cyclone.

[Marcus Ward]

Okay I dusted everything off and ran the dust collector while jointing some pine (already lots of fine dust in the bag) and everything in the shop had a very fine coating of dust afterward. However, that could be stuff I'm kicking up from the floor as well as stuff that's just in the air. I think the dust bags could be a little better on the HF dc but I still think it's a good buy. I couldn't imagine running this planer or jointer without it.

So... what's so bad about mdf dust?

The freud fence and a shop vac do a credible job of keeping dust from the router table to a minimum, that's the system I'm using.

[tod evans]

So... what's so bad about mdf dust?

.


it`s plain nasty! really fine, taste terrible, smells bad and sticks to everything. other than that it`s not so bad:) .....02 tod

[Jim Becker]

So... what's so bad about mdf dust?

It's very fine and contains a LOT of non-wood material...the resins that are used to bind the fine particles together when them make the stuff under intense pressure. Some of it containes formaldehyde, but that is brand specific. Nasty stuff that you do NOT want in your lungs. And...it's a pain in the tukus to clearn up when and if it finally settles out of the air in your shop and/or home. Dust collection at the source is really important with this stuff.

[Bob Dodge]

All,

So, let's say I started doing any and all MDF work outside.

Can you see any better option (aside from a cyclone) over the HF 2hp DC with a wynn canister conversion? (For around $200)
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Hi TJ,

Lemme see, on one hand, you have the H.F. and a Wynn cartridge. Total cost is probably around $250 after the conversion. Your impeller is 10 1/2", with a 5" blower outlet.

Since this is by far the cheapest dc around, I suppose it would be logical to surmize that it also has the cheapest motor around. Sound fair?

Plus you have to invest some time in modifying the dc's bag-tree to add a neutral vane. hmmm.

Summary, you buy the dc, then change it, then scrap the filters, and buy new ones. How much is this completed "bargain" dc again?

You can buy a complete Delta 50-760 with one of the best filters I've seen on a consumer level dc, for as low as $239. The oversized(20.5 sq.ft.) 1 micron needle-felt filter, is rated to 1 micron. The impeller is 11 1/2". I'd imagine like most Delta dc's, that the motor has manual thermal overload protection as well. Nothing to "up-grade or modify". Plug n' Play. Despite the fact that it's a 1 1/2 hp dc, it will easily outperform even the modified HF.

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5815

here's a review;

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/d50-760rvu.html

Good luck, Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Bob,

Thanks so much for your reply.
You make a very compelling argument. As a result, I'm going to see who has the best deal on the Delta unit.

All,

I've been researching the whole DC issue over the past couple of days.
At this point, here's what I'm thinking about doing.

1. I'll buy the Delta 50-760. This will stretch the budget a bit, but I'm a logical guy and I don't like to waste money. Bob makes a logical argument.

2. I'll do all MDF work outside, with my respirator.

3. I'll also evaluate where the DC will go. Originally, I wanted to put it in the other basement and pipe into my shop through a window-like opening. However, I'm concerned that the pipe turns necessary to make this happen would kill its ability to operate effectively. After going over my shop layout again, I think I've found a place I can put it without sacrificing much.

4. Although I realize that a cyclone is the ideal scenario, I can't really afford one and don't have the space to accommodate one. With the above changes in my workflow, I think its certainly better to go this route than not having dust collection of any kind. Wouldn't you agree?

Thank you so much to everyone for your helpful responses and feedback. Your help has really gone far toward solving this problem for me.

[Jim Becker]

TJ, you may be better served by keeping the Delta unit mobile and just moving it from machine to machine. These smaller systems aren't the best with duct work, especially with bunches of twists and turns and you'll get the best performance with just a short hose to the tools. And some simple hearing protection is less costly than the duct work, too...something that sounds like it's important to you right now.

[Marcus Ward]

I would read this website before you go buying ANYTHING. I spent a couple of hours last night reading most of it and it changes your purchase decisions.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCConversion.cfm

He talks about how hobbyist DC's are almost worthless at getting the fine dust, talks about a filter conversion from wynn filter for the HF dc and how it's far more effective than a stock out of the box dc from almost anyone. I am going to buy the 35a cartridge filter from Wynn for my HF DC and modify the inlet a little so that it seperates chips more effectively. Thing is, if you buy the Delta DC you're still going to get the small particles that are the ones that cause problems, and you'd STILL have to buy the conversion filter from Wynn to get effective FINE DUST collection because the 20.5 sq ft of filter area provided by the nice bags is not enough to allow enough air to move through the system to pick up the really fine dust. You're still going to end up retrofitting it to get the fine stuff, and you'll be out even more money. I'd buy the HF and retrofit it with the Wynn cartridge and be in total only a bit more than the Delta DC instead of buying the delta, finding it insufficient, and modding it later. Either way, good luck. That website opened my eyes (and helped explain why my entire shop is coated in dust... and why I cough and hack in the mornings.)

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Ok, I've been thinking about a more 'long term' plan.
What do you folks think?

1. I'll go with a standard DC in the $250 - $300 range. Either the Delta 50-570 or the HF 2hp. Probably the Delta.

2. I'll start using that, using a 20-ft or so run and move it between machines. For the next 6 months or a year.

3. I have an HVAC blower already set aside to build an ambient air filter for the shop ceiling.

4. I'll build a DC closet, of sorts, just outside my shop's exterior door. And this is where the DC will live. I can run power through the exterior wall and feed my DC run into the shop. This would isolate the DC from the shop, helping prevent the fine dust expulsion issues raised by some.

5. When we're on better financial footing (my wife starts her job as a fulltime firefighter in March), I'll rework the "closet" and buy a cyclone!
At that point, I can resell my Delta DC and probably get about half my money back out of it.

What do you folks think about this plan?

[john mclane]

Bob
You have mnetioned this particular DC before do youhave any knowledge about the cartridge model http://media.ptg-online.com/web/dm/i/spacer.gif Model 50-850A. I have a height problem (ceiling 6'7") that I need to consider and most of the cyclones and many of the 2 bag systems are too tall.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi T.J.

Don't worry about MDF with that Delta, you'll see none of it back in your shop air. The filter on this dc is really quite good. All of the new Delta line-up, use exactly the same cloth for all their filters. These are the nicest filters I've yet seen on a consumer model dc. The fine particle filtration will be there.

Now, you'll also have to keep that filter clean if your milling a lot of MDF, but for the most part, if you simply give the filter a good shake when you start-up your dc, you'll be fine, This holds true for any bag-type filter, and is certainly much easier and quicker than blowing-out a cannister filter with a compressor and blow-gun.

While many will tell you that a cartridge is capable of finer filtration than a bag-filter, it is simply not the case. I have yet to see a single cartridge filter with an air-permebility rating of better than 20 cfm/sq.ft. A high-quality needle-felt filter, will routinely flow better than 50-60 cfm/ sq.ft., and filter to 1 micron and better. In my own shop, I use a small industrial dc from Pyradia/Belfab. The 1/8" thick needle-felt filters are superb. While I have an ambient air-cleaner, I have never once used it since buying my dc. My shop's air-quality is pristine. I have never once removed my top-filter for cleaning, and I've had that dc for almost 4 years now. Just a quick shake, and I'm good to go.

I recently conducted an airflow test on my dc. I used a short 7.5ft long 6" pipe, and found that my amp-draw with the "dirty" filters was 10.7 amps. With the top filter completely removed and zero back-pressure, the difference was only 0.4 amps. My dc has 32 sq.ft. of surface area. The filters are rated to 1/2 micron.

This doesn't mean that you'll have no maintenance. A small dc like the Delta 50-760 means you'll have to be diligent in keeping that filter fairly clean. With the much larger 2hp 50-761, you'd have twice the filter-surface area, and twice the waste capacity, but it's also twice the price. What you won't get, is twice the suction. Again, just give that filter a good shake on start-up, and I think you'll be very satisfied with this dc. Of course, fine dust will tend to require more frequent cleaning than coarse/dry shavings will. In fact, you could probably even overflow the bottom waste-bag to the point where your top filter is almost full of planer shavings, yet notice very little drop-off in suction.

As to ducting, try to place that dc as close as possible to your largest air-requirement machine. You should easily be capable of pulling close to 800 cfm at your table-saw, if you keep that pipe run short and efficient. It's even possible to use some 6" pipe with that dc, despite the fact that it has a 5" inlet. By placing the dc close to your saw, you can run a 6" pipe to the saw at floor level, then split that 6" pipe with a 6x6x6 wye. The 6" branch that goes to the saw should be further split to 6x4x4, or 6x4x3. Run a 4" to the base, and use the other branch for an overarm blade-cover. Now, back at that original 6x6x6 split, just continue your duct-run from that point. A 5" pipe from there, will easily handle your planer and jointer. With your three "majors" taken care of, you can run smaller 4" smooth-walled pipe to your router-table, etc.

It's too bad that some of these single-stage dc's get such a bad rap. In many cases it's deserved, but I'd have to say that in many more cases, it's just poorly designed ducting on the part of the owner, and "over-rated" filter efficiency. Properly ducted, and used within it's limitations, a dc like this Delta should do a very good job indeed, and in that price range, nothing else can compare.

Regarding the price you've mentioned ($289.), I thought that the suggested retail price was $279. Just recently, Delta offered a $30. rebate/discount. I've seen some guys get that dc for as little as $239.

If you need some help with ducting, just get back to me and I'll be glad to help out.

All the best, Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Hi T.J.
Regarding the price you've mentioned ($289.), I thought that the suggested retail price was $279. Just recently, Delta offered a $30. rebate/discount. I've seen some guys get that dc for as little as $239.

If you need some help with ducting, just get back to me and I'll be glad to help out.

All the best, Bob
Bob, I can't thank you enough for your input.
I'd say its settled at this point. I'm going to pull the trigger on the Delta you've recommended.

Normally, I wouldn't go into this with the *possibility* that I might buy a cyclone later. BUT, I think your recommendation is my best option at this point. And it makes me feel more confident to get the 1 micron bags right out of the box and have a good Delta warranty to boot. Likely saving me future hassles following up on potential HF returns, if I had gone with the HF.

No doubt some have had good success with HF, but I think this is a good plan for me.

Bob, I will definitely need help with ducting. I know ZEE-RO about it.
I have an open-cab Delta contractor saw, a closed-cab Jet 6" jointer and a closed-cab 14" Jet bandsaw. I'll need to get a hood fitting for the jointer and close up the base of my table saw.

My hope is to run the DC piping along the floor.
However, it would be better if I could have it along the perimeter and not in the middle where I'm tripping over it. This would create a few corners.
I'm assuming this is bad for the DC's effectiveness. Can I remedy that with blast gates? Also, is it possible for me to use 3 or 4" piping? Or does this cut down on CFM too much?

[Bob Dodge]

Hi John,

The Delta 850 cannister dc might be a very good solution to your low ceiling height problem, mind you, I'm not a fan of cartridge filters on a single-stage dc. With a non-breatheable plastic lower bag, all of the light waste follows the airflow into the cartridge filter cavity, and tends to load the cartridge pleats and reduce airflow. As long as you're aware of that, and perform the required filter maintenance, that cartridge equipped dc should be fine.

The Delta 850 has some good and bad points going for it. There have been at least three model changes that I'm aware of with that dc. The original version had an 11" impeller, and newer versions I'm told go with a 12" impeller. The intake/outlet porting is all 6", which makes for a very free-breathing dc. This dc is immensely "hot-rodable". Every DC-850 I've seen, has the letters "Cont" clearly stamped on the motor name-plate. That means the motor is rated for "continuous" duty-cycle operation. It also has manual thermal overload protection.

So what's the downside? Well, some versions use a 4" air-flow restriction collar just inside of the 6" inlet-cover. That collar is simply tack-welded in place, and would be absolutely essential "IF" you're going to use the dc in an unrestricted fashion.(no filter,venting outside, or very short large diameter pipe). Hooked up to a proper duct-system, you can easily remove that restriction collar to increase airflow.

You should know that the original version of that dc, had only an 11" impeller, yet because of it's all 6" porting, it was the second highest drawing dc in the American Woodworker Magazine test, beating all of the 2hp dc's except for the 12" impeller equipped 2 hp Jet DC-1200. The Delta pulled 895 cfm. With the recently added 12" impeller, that Delta should easily flow 1000 cfm through a 10 ft test-pipe, 6" in diameter. That's 2hp dc territory, and is the reason why that restrictor is added. With proper ducting in place, you should still manage 800 cfm to at least one of your machines, with no overloading at the motor. From that 1st drop, you could easily run a 5" pipe to your other machines.

http://www.rd.com/americanwoodworker/toolguide/TT_DustCollection.pdf

Good luck, Bob

[Bob Dodge]

T.J.,

Here are some links to planning your ducting. Some of this may help you get a better foundation for getting started. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you can add your ducting one step at a time. Start out by doing your main run first, and that's most likely to your tablesaw. From that point, you can run a simple 4" flex-pipe for the time being, then eventually up-grade to a nice 5" smooth-walled main for the other machines.

That Delta can have the inlet facing up or down, and this allows for a few creative alternatives where ducting is concerned. There's always a way to coax a little extra performance from a dc, as long as you think "out-of-the-box".

In these links, pay particular attention to the Oneida branch configurations. You'll see that running the pipe around the perimeter of a room, may not be a very good idea. The shortest/straightest path is always best.

Remember, your dc is only as close to your machine as your duct-length. The dc will "see" each 90 degree elbow as 12 feet of straight-pipe, so avoid unnecessary use of elbows, and use nice long-radius turns wherever possible. Keep flex-hose use to an absolute minimum. At 4000 fpm, that flex-duct can have up to three times the resistance of a smooth-walled pipe.


http://www.airhand.com/designing.asp

Look at page 5,

http://www.oneida-air.com/design/ductguide.pdf

Now, you asked if you can use 3" and 4" pipe, and the answer is yes, but you'll have to do it properly, and sometimes "in combination" with another pipe. You have to "balance" the airflow. You always have to be mindful of what's happening velocity-wize, in your larger diameter main. Don't worry about that, I'll help you out there. Just give me a rough idea of what your shop floor-plan looks like, and the placement of your machines, and we can tackle it from there.

All the best,

Bob

[Marcus Ward]

While many will tell you that a cartridge is capable of finer filtration than a bag-filter, it is simply not the case. I have yet to see a single cartridge filter with an air-permebility rating of better than 20 cfm/sq.ft. A high-quality needle-felt filter, will routinely flow better than 50-60 cfm/ sq.ft., and filter to 1 micron and better. In my own shop, I use a small industrial dc from Pyradia/Belfab. The 1/8" thick needle-felt filters are superb. While I have an ambient air-cleaner, I have never once used it since buying my dc. My shop's air-quality is pristine. I have never once removed my top-filter for cleaning, and I've had that dc for almost 4 years now. Just a quick shake, and I'm good to go.

While this is very good salesmanship, the problem is that bag type filters don't have the surface are of a folded cartridge like the 35a from Wynn. You say the bag is as good, but too many people, including Bill Pentz say otherwise. Subjective experience is worth very little although I'm sure you've talked the original poster into going with what you've said, I still think he should read this website I posted earlier.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

While this is very good salesmanship, the problem is that bag type filters don't have the surface are of a folded cartridge like the 35a from Wynn. You say the bag is as good, but too many people, including Bill Pentz say otherwise. Subjective experience is worth very little although I'm sure you've talked the original poster into going with what you've said, I still think he should read this website I posted earlier.
Marcus, I want to assure you that I haven't ignored your advice. I've been going back to Bill Pentz' site many times and will do so again many times in the future. I'll be honest, though. There's such a ridiculous amount of information there that I often get disgusted at how little I actually learn by reading it because I'm overhwhelmed by statistics and such.

My plan is to buy a cyclone when we can afford it.

[Bryan Cowing]

I recently made one and power it with an old 3 hp 4 bag DC. Since I have a 13 ft ceiling and tight for room, I made brackets to mount the DC on the wall and have my belt sander below. I replaced the old bags 2 years ago with better felt bags. I made the cyclone per instructions and added an extra 5/8" melamine disc on the top with a 6" hole to fit the pipe from the DC. I have the Pentz cyclone in the corner and have a melamine lid on a plastic garbage can. The lid is fastened to the wall with loose pipe straps so I can pull the rubbermaid garbage can out to empty and the cyclone stays put:D . The 20 yr old Grizzly generates enough suction to flatten pipes and the garbage can. I had to put a wood hoop in the can and a relief valve ( dryer cold air backflow preventer with a spring) in the snap lock pipe system I use. The homemade blast gates have a magnetic switch to shut off the DC.

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus, I want to assure you that I haven't ignored your advice. I've been going back to Bill Pentz' site many times and will do so again many times in the future. I'll be honest, though. There's such a ridiculous amount of information there that I often get disgusted at how little I actually learn by reading it because I'm overhwhelmed by statistics and such.

My plan is to buy a cyclone when we can afford it.

Ah well Bill Pentz's problem is that he writes 250 words when he only needs 20. The main page of his site has most of his recommendations about what to do on a limited budget. The reason I push the HF DC is because the wynn 35a cartridge filter is designed to fit onto it directly without any modification - although fitting the delta is trivial, it's still not a direct plugin retrofit. Also for the cost, figure 150 for the HF DC and 100 for the filter, you're out 250, cheaper than the delta new. Plus the delta comes stock with 5 micron bags - 5 micron and smaller dust is where all the danger lies in woodworking dust. The wynn cartridge does .5 micron and has much more surface area than a bag. Granted, the HF is a cheapy, probably a cheaper motor than the delta and the impeller isn't as big, but if you're planning on replacing it in a few years anyhow - if it were me - I'd buy the cheaper one to save some bucks since you're not planning on having it forever. Just my 2 cents.

[Bob Dodge]

While this is very good salesmanship, the problem is that bag type filters don't have the surface are of a folded cartridge like the 35a from Wynn. You say the bag is as good, but too many people, including Bill Pentz say otherwise. Subjective experience is worth very little although I'm sure you've talked the original poster into going with what you've said, I still think he should read this website I posted earlier.
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Hi Marcus,

There's a lot more to filtration than filter surface area. While we woodworkers tend to think of filters in terms of dealing with wood-waste, fact is, there are filters manufactured for dealing with virtually any industrial process imaginable. If a 'woodworker" shops for a cartridge filter based solely on filter-surface area, he may very well end up with a filter that was never designed to handle coarse/dry waste from the outset. Often, tightly-pleated cannister filters are used to deal with vapours, mists, and smokes, and would be highly innapropriate for use with wood-waste. The result can be premature failure, and expensive down-time, and maintenance/replacement costs.

If you go to Oneida's site, you'll see the selection of filters they offer varies widely. By far the most expensive cartridge filter they offer, sells for $345. US. If you take a close look at that filter, you'll find that it has extra-wide pleats, and although it's the largest filter in their line-up, it only has 130 sq.ft. of filter surface. Compare that to some cartridge filters with up to 300 sq. ft. The filter also features an Axtar coating, for enhanced particle release. You'll also notice that the air-permeability rating is roughly 16-17 cfm/ sq.ft.

http://www.oneida-air.com/products/filters/main.htm

The only other cartridge filter that I've seen with an actual air-permeability rating is the one used by Larry Adcock, on the WoodSucker II. Same rating, 20 cfm/ sq.ft.

http://www.woodsucker.com/features.htm

Now, you may also be interested to know that although Torit-Donaldson is by far the world's largest industrial filtration products manufacturer, including cartridge filters, they use only needle-felt bag-filters on their cyclones. Farr, does the same.

http://www.donaldson.com/en/industrialair/literature/000984.pdf

Here's a high-end bag-filter for comparison. Scroll down to the last photo, and look to the right of that pic. You'll see an air-permeability rating of 55-65 cfm/sq.ft.

http://www.beltechengineering.com/Products/bean.html

Companies like Kraemer and Pyradia/Belfab, routinely offer high-quality needle-felt filter-bags as standard equipment on their dc's, especially single-stage dc's. Filtration spec is 1/2 micron, and air-permeability to 60 cfm/ sq.ft.

Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Plus the delta comes stock with 5 micron bags - 5 micron and smaller dust is where all the danger lies in woodworking dust. The wynn cartridge does .5 micron and has much more surface area than a bag. Granted, the HF is a cheapy, probably a cheaper motor than the delta and the impeller isn't as big, but if you're planning on replacing it in a few years anyhow - if it were me - I'd buy the cheaper one to save some bucks since you're not planning on having it forever. Just my 2 cents.

The Delta I'm going to buy, the 50-760, comes with 1 micron bags. Not 5 micron.

[tod evans]

Ah well Bill Pentz's problem is that he writes 250 words when he only needs 20. The main page of his site has most of his recommendations about what to do on a limited budget. The reason I push the HF DC is because the wynn 35a cartridge filter is designed to fit onto it directly without any modification - although fitting the delta is trivial, it's still not a direct plugin retrofit. Also for the cost, figure 150 for the HF DC and 100 for the filter, you're out 250, cheaper than the delta new. Plus the delta comes stock with 5 micron bags - 5 micron and smaller dust is where all the danger lies in woodworking dust. The wynn cartridge does .5 micron and has much more surface area than a bag. Granted, the HF is a cheapy, probably a cheaper motor than the delta and the impeller isn't as big, but if you're planning on replacing it in a few years anyhow - if it were me - I'd buy the cheaper one to save some bucks since you're not planning on having it forever. Just my 2 cents.

marcus, cheaper isn`t usually better. as bob says most of the big units use bags incorperated into a baghouse. when i built my system,(on the cheap) i researched a ton of information and without a highly efficient cyclone the canister filters really are not cost effective or efficient. when i get to humping on a moulding run it`s no problem for me to fill a 3 yard dumpster 3-4 times a week, if i had opted for pleated filters with the way my system is configured i would be spending a couple hours each day cleaning them just to maintain air flow. now i`m not a dust collector expert by a long shot! but time and efficiency in a one man shop i`m pretty well versed in and the advice bob gives about non cyclone filtration is sound. if i ever get around to building a cyclone system i will still use bags as a prefilter and then use the submicron pleated units as final filters but i have no intentions of ever trying to use the pleated units as stand alone filtration......02 tod

[Marcus Ward]

That's great guys. Have you actually read Bill Pentz's website or Wynn's? It's obvious that wynn knows what they're doing and build the filters appropriate for the use. Pentz has done tons of testing and research into this as well. Yes, any standalone unit isn't going to be the best, but for the situation we're talking about I feel it's the best solution presented. Hey, I don't know nothin, I'm just a guy on the internet. :)

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Marcus,

Bill's site is a wonderful resource for information on dust-collection, but you have to put it in context. Basically, it compares options to the commonly available consumer dc's of several years ago. It wasn't that long ago that virtually all consumer single-stage dc's came with very poor quality filters, undersized and poorly designed porting, etc. I feel that Bill is the driving force in making the average Joe aware about dust-collection issues. We're all better informed because of Bill, and a lot more demanding.

We're also willing to part with more money for a sound dust-collection system, and as we do so, more and more quality products that were once only the domain of industrial dc's, will make it's way into our market-place.

Dust collection is a big world. You'd be amazed what's out there. Tod for example, referred to bag-house dc's. These dc's are far and away the most efficient dc's out there today. Most bag-house dc's, tend to go with automatic shaker mechanisms, and flow reversal, to constantly keep filters clean during operation. Blower's are mounted 'clean-side', and this allows for very efficient fan-wheels to be used. A lot less power consumed per CFM.

Filtration alone, is a huge subject. You can probably spend days in Donaldson-Torit's site, just researching filters. Same goes for the dc's themselves. You'll also find that most of the cannister-filter dc's, use pulse-jet cleaning to constantly clear the filter during operation. A pulse-jet system, uses high-pressure blasts of compressed air to clean those filters. Pressure drops from loaded filters can be constantly monitored, automatically triggering the pulse-jet cleaning action.

Horsepower ratings among industrial dc's, vary much more widely in performance than those found in the consumer market. The difference can be night and day. It's not at all uncommon for a 3hp single-stage dc, to be pulling 1400 cfm at a very high 8.5" static pressure, through a 7" pipe, with only a 13.2" impeller. Mind you, these tend to be very big dc's, often 10-11 feet tall. They're also built like tanks for reliability in a commercial environment. Very expensive however. 5 hp models will typically pull around 2500 cfm at 7.5" sp, and 7 1/2 hp models going beyond 3500 cfm. 1/2 micron filtration is pretty well 'standard equipment" these days. That's a very competitive market. Beane*Bag filtration, is routinely offered as an optional up-grade, especially where a lot of wood-flour is produced.

I'll give you a few interesting links to look at. Who knows. Some of this technology should eventually find it's way even into our home-shop dc's. Those we have now, are all based on these dc's.

http://www.donaldson.com/en/industrialair/index.html

http://www.belfab.net/dust_collector.html

http://www.kraemertool.com/

http://www.farrapc.com/

http://www.filterpress.net/frameprodotting.html

Enjoy,

Bob

[Marcus Ward]

Yeah a friend of mine builds pulsejet systems for GE. He talked about designing me a monster DC for my shop but time and money are always a factor. He's also the guy who builds my racing bikes. Smart fella. He said he felt the better filter on the DC I have along with a air filtration system in the shop should be sufficient. I'm gonna stay with that until I can afford something more radical.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Ok, folks, here's a shot of my shop machine positioning, at the moment.
I've overlayed what I think might be a good DC plan. This plan would allow me to run my ducting along the edge of the floor, for the most part, and minimize tripping. At the same time, it should comply with basic DC physics for efficiency.

Since the lathe is a funny animal for DC, I would plan on just setting up some kind of wide intake to go to the rear of the lathe and point it toward the work area. The jointer, opposite the band saw, would be served by flex hose and be easily stored against the wall until I need to attach it to eithe the jointer or my planer. (Which typically

What does everyone think?

http://workshop.tjmahaffey.com/workshop/img/tmp/dc_layout.jpg
Of course, I'll have to enclose the table saw and router table to make collection at those points possible. My plan would be to build one of the many great contractor saw workstations which appear in woodworking mags. I'm guessing I'll have to just go ahead and start on that asap.

[Bob Dodge]

Yeah a friend of mine builds pulsejet systems for GE. He talked about designing me a monster DC for my shop but time and money are always a factor. He's also the guy who builds my racing bikes. Smart fella. He said he felt the better filter on the DC I have along with a air filtration system in the shop should be sufficient. I'm gonna stay with that until I can afford something more radical.

Marcus,

You said the magic word, "sufficient". I couldn't agree more. As long as you have an effective filter, and enough suction to handle "your pipes", in "your" work-shop, that's really is all you need. Once you hit that 3500-4000 fpm velocity threshold, anything beyond that is merely wasted energy. Sure, it's nice to have reserve power, especially if you intend to grow the shop, but moving waste at 6000 fpm through a pipe, won't get that waste to the dc any "better", just faster.

Bob

[Marcus Ward]

Sufficient should be the watchword. I like Pentz's website a lot but I wonder if he's going a teensy bit overboard. Yesterday I grabbed an old blower from a forced air heating unit from the hardware store I work part time, it was just sitting in back in a pile of junk. I built a box around it so the sides have a .1-.5 micron allergen filter on them (16x25) and the air is drawn in through them and exhausted out the blower outlet through a hole in the side of the box. It comes on when the lights in the shop are on and it made an AMAZING difference in the amount of dust in the shop yesterday. It moves tons of air and really cut down on the amount of 'flour' I have sitting on all my machines today. There is such a light dusting now you can barely tell wheras yesterday it looked like I shot a bag of flour at close range with a large caliber handgun in there. Cheap too. Cost me 2 filters (16$). I hung it from the ceiling in about the middle of the action area so it'll grab the floating dust from around there.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

I built a box around it so the sides have a .1-.5 micron allergen filter on them (16x25) and the air is drawn in through them and exhausted out the blower outlet through a hole in the side of the box.
Excellent, Marcus!
I'm planning to do the EXACT same thing. I've already got an HVAC blower set aside for it. (Free! My FIL has an HVAC business.)

Do you have any additional info on how you built yours?

On a related note, :D:D
I just placed my DC order with Amazon for my Delta 50-760.
I'd been researching ducting over the past couple of days and putting off placing the order, just in case I was going to get some ducting, too.
I decided to go ahead and order and not limit myself to the ducting Amazon offers.

As it turns out, its good that I waited another day. :)
They just happened to start running a new promo for $40 orders over $220! With my free super-saver shipping, I got my new DC for $249.
Woo! I'm pumped. :)

Bob, I'd still be interested in hearing your or anyone else's thoughts on my initial ducting layout thoughts. (See my last post, with picture diagram.)

[Jack Norfleet]

T.J.

I just made the same order with Amazon. I have a Performax sander on order which requires farily large CFMs to work correctly so I decided that the Delta would be a good stopgap until I can install a cyclone this summer. It will also provide collection for my table saw, jointer, and planer which have nothing right now other than a broom and dust pan.

Jack

[Bob Dodge]

Hi T.J.

Sounds like you got a pretty decent deal on the Delta. wtg.

It's a little difficult for me to totally comprehend your shop layout "as posted", and I also don't have any shop dimension numbers to work from, but I'll give it a go to start the ball rolling. A few questions are in order.

I assume you want to place your dc in the corner, next to your wood-rack. You said earlier, that you will most likely be running your pipe 'close to the floor". Can you pass that pipe "under" the wood-rack? If so, that should work out well.

Now, the first order of business, would be to determine just how many "CFM" you want at your major tools. Your saw has no overarm blade-cover at this point, but will you be adding one? If so, will you build your own, or buy a unit like the Excalibur?

At it stands now, you could have your dc's inlet facing down, then use a short length of 5" pipe, and a nice long-radius elbow to get your pipe running along the floor. Try to use a radius of 2.5 x diameter if possible, or at the very least, 1.5 x diameter.

When you reach the saw, use a 45 degree take-off from the main, and make that the same diameter as your main. For now, with no overarm blade-cover(OA-BC), you could simply run a 4" pipe to your saw's base. That really depends on what hood you'll have there. I don't really care for the flat hoods that you so often see being used on contractor saws, especially with 4" ports. It's not that the port itself is too small, it's just that there is no "dust-ramp" effect. It's quite easy to make your own hood for that saw. I made one for my previous saw, which was a contractor saw. It resembled a large square funnel, hanging under the saw. With steeply sloped sides, ALL the waste fell into the hood, and toward the dc outlet. I had no dc then, only a large shop-vac, yet it was very effective. My current saw, is a Delta UniSaw, with a very effective dust-ramp. Easily serviced with a 4" pipe and hood.

Later, when you add the OA-BC, you can add a 5x4x4 wye at the take-off from the main. Run one branch to the base, and the other to the OA-BC. Don't worry about the two 4"'s being larger in area than the 5" main. Velocity will not be a problem there, since those pipes will be flowing downward toward your main. Furthermore, if you go with an Excalibur OA-BC, it has a 4" connection at the back-end of the boom, but only 3" internal porting at the business end of the boom and hood. Static-pressure will automatically balance in those two pipes, to pull MORE cfm at the base than the OA-BC. For example, assuming a total draw of 750 cfm at the saw, your "balance" at both ports might be something like 500 cfm at the base, and 250 cfm at the OA-BC.

Regarding your router-table, that can be handled by a 4x4x4 wye at the OA-BC's pipe, or from the saw-base's pipe. Use a blast-gate on each branch, and run a 4" pipe to the router-table's hood, and the other branch to the OA-BC.

Now, continuing your run to the bandsaw, again, come off that main with a full-diameter 45 degree take-off. I assume you'll want a 4" pipe to the bandsaw, BUT, directly across from the bandsaw, you have your jointer. Now, you obviously don't want to have a pipe permanently running across the floor, so here's what to do. Make that bandsaw take-off, and pipe, 5". At the end of that 5" pipe, use a 5x5x5 wye. Cap one of those 5" ports. On the other branch, reduce to 4", and hook-up the bandsaw's duct.

Now, when it comes time to use your planer or jointer, you can simply hook-up a short length of flex-pipe from that "capped" port, to your machines. As it stands, you can't have permanent ducting to your planer anyway. You're presently having to move that planer to use it. If you prefer to NOT come off the bandsaw's pipe, simply use another 5" take-off AFTER the bandsaw, and a short length of capped 5" pipe. Again, connect that to your planer or jointer "as required". That pipe doesn't necessarily have to be "capped" too. You could simply have a length of flex-hose with a blast-gate. When you need it, just slip it onto the hood of your planer/jointer, and open that gate. When you're done, close the gate, and coil your hose out of the way.

Now, from what I understand, that leaves only your lathe. Continue that main at full diameter, all the way to that lathe. Again, make your take-off the same diameter as the main. If you're going to reduce to 4", ALWAYS do it AFTER the take-off, not at the main itself. That larger diameter at the take-off, will somewhat reduce resistance at that point.

The lathe can be a very tricky animal to collect waste from. The size of your drop at that machine, will depend on what you're trying to accomplish at that machine. If you're sanding a bowl for example, you'd want a properly designed hood, CLOSE to the bowl. You'd also want to use a large diameter pipe there if possible. You can try with the 4", but you may be better off going with a full 5" pipe and hood. Don't expect to do miracles when turning spindles, because the waste is flowing toward you, across and along the top of the chisel. It would probably be a good idea to have a floor-sweep at the lathe. Just splice it into that machine's take-off.

In the future, as you add more machinery, you can simply "splice" into your main.

Now, going back to the beginning here, you COULD start out with a 6" pipe and elbow under the dc. In fact, you could continue that 6" pipe to at least the first drop.(saw), and possibly even to the bandsaw. I'm not certain that I would recommend that however. You have to remember that the 6" pipe will be operating at whatever velocity your drops allow. If you are going to be using 4" drops at certain machines, then there's a good chance you'll be flowing a maximum of around 500-525 cfm at those machines. That's optimistic too, and assumes that you're using mostly smooth-walled pipe, and as little flex as possible. At 500 cfm, the velocity in a 6" main, would be only 2548 fpm, and that's why I recommend you stick to a 5" main. With a 5" main and 500 cfm through the drops, you'd be flowing at 3670 fpm. Remember, you're flowing air "upwards" at the dc. Also, and this is IMPORTANT. Do not use an elbow directly at the inlet of your dc. Use a short length of straight-pipe toward the floor, and THEN add your elbow. This will provide a more laminar flow into the impeller. You'll get better suction.

Hope that helps, Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

As always, it helps alot, Bob, yes.

I've updated my DC layout diagram to clarify a bit. Just hit your browser's refresh button. (Addition of a descriptive box, lower left.)

RE: Overarm DC on table saw.
I have no immediate plans for one, but I'm sure I'll build my own when the time comes.

RE: Lathe
I'm realistic about DC and the lathe. I'll do the best I can with a creative hood or intake. I have an idea in mind, actually. My lathe is made from angle iron and pulleys and a separate motor, which I bought at an auction for $37. It works great for my needs at the moment (tool handles, mallets, etc.) but won't do bowls, so DC for bowl turning isn't a concern.

RE: Jointer and planer.
I think your suggestion is spot on. I'll do a blast gate and flex hose to run between my planer and jointer when needed.

I'll take down all of your suggestions about pipe diameter at the key points and apply them. Thank you!

One final question (yeah, right):

? - Do you have a recommendation on what ducting to buy? I know there are lots of options: galvanized, flex, smooth interior, etc. I'd be interested in a good, solid type suggestion and a reliable retailer from which to buy it.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi T.J.

Try to get your hands on some smooth-walled 5" pipe. Don't look for this stuff at the local borg or hardware store. You 'might" find it there, but your best bet will be to contact a heating and ventilation supplier or contractor in your area. They might be able to lead you to a small local pipe manufacturer. These are not necessarily large companies producing this pipe. I found two small manufacturers in one afternoon, after a short drive through an industrial park. Buying directly from these guys is your cheapest option.

If you can't find a manufacturer, ask where your local heating and ventilation contractors buy their pipe. Don't call these guys. go directly to their place of business and speak to them face to face. You should get at least some guidance, and perhaps they can supply you as well.

Bob

[Maurice Ungaro]

T.J.,
in case nobody has mentioned it yet (sorry, I have tried to follow this thread, but I'm not paying too much attention while recuperating from a sinus infection), keep that main run of pipe from the DC below 34" from the floor level. You'll get better suction that way.

[Allan Johanson]

Hi T.J.,

For 5" pipe you can use HVAC snaplock pipe (28ga-26ga should be fine) or 5" spiral pipe. I'm using a combo of snaplock and spiral in my shop depending on the application. Snaplock from the Borg (28ga in 30" lengths in my area) and spiral from a local distributor. I went to an HVAC/plumbing supply place and asked them for spiral pipe. They referred me to a local distributor. Spiral is sold in 10' lengths so bring a vehicle that can carry it. Your local distributor might not be interested in cutting it for you.

For fittings I'm using 28ga HVAC pieces from the Borg. Works for me.

Cheers,

Allan

[Bill Pentz]

If you are working in a basement shop, you are exposing not just yourself but everyone close to you to whatever wood dust you make. With this dust lingering for six months or more before it breaks down or dissipates, this exposure becomes 24x7 for you and your family. Most consider me a fanatic, so spend a few seconds and do a Google search on PM 2.5 health risks (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=PM+2.5+health+risks) and see there are about 5,900,000 references that make it clear anyone who tells you to get a 2 or 3-micron cartridge is ignorant.

To deal with this dust three things need to happen.


You fix your tools so they do not spray the fine dust all over;
You move enough air to capture that fine dust as it is made; and,
You get rid of the fine dust by either blowing it away outside of filtering it off.


Fixing the tools requires opening the dust ports, fixing the hoods and in some cases may be impossible because it requires extensive internal tool redesign. My ducting pages share some well tested designs. Sometimes we cannot fix a tool and even a good downdraft table is not enough. These kinds of tools need used outside or replaced.

Moving enough air requires you look up how much air is required at each machine. Most mess up badly confusing “chip collection” airflows with fine dust collection airflows that are roughly twice as high. AAF, one of the top names in commercial dust collection systems that must perform or their customers will fail air quality checks recommends the following airflows.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/CFMRequirementsTableSmAAF.gif

Once we know how much air we need to move, we can use that value, typically about 800 CFM for our larger tools, to size our ducting. Most end up needing 6" diameter ducting.

We then use a Static Pressure Calculator (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/StaticCalc.xls) to compute the approximate static pressure within our shop. Static pressure tells how much pressure a blower must overcome when working. The below value is typical for most small shops that go with a cyclone. You will save only about 1.5" if you go with a dust collector and no cyclone, but as your filters get dirty will go well over this amount of pressure.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/StaticCalcAveShop.jpg

The needed airflow and static pressure are then used to size your blower. Because most small shop dust collectors and cyclones are copies of commercial blowers and typically less well made, a good commercial fan table will give you an idea of the maximum expected performance for a small shop blower. Due to poor design and manufacture many small shop blowers move far less air than identically sized commercial blowers. A fan table also tells you what hp and impeller size you need for your blower. A fan table also shows you when you will burn up a motor from trying to move too much air at lower pressures. Many just fake it believing vendor advertised maximum airflows and end up with about half the sized blower they need.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/BlowerCycloneFanTable.jpg

Getting rid of the dust is best done by using a cyclone to separate off the heavy stuff then blow the fine dust away outside. You can also put your dust collector outside, but most require protection from the weather. Makeup air may also need to be provided to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning because these blowers cans suck exhaust fumes backward through their vents. Heating concerns are best addressed with radiant heaters. If you must filter the dust, you need not only a fine enough filter to address the most hazardous dust, but also you need ample filter area to keep your filters from self destructing.

There are tons of details, roughly four hours a day worth for nearly five years incorporated into my web pages.

Good luck and remember that one round in the hospital makes a good fine dust collection cyclone seem pretty cheap.

Bill Pentz

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Here's what UPS said today:

<table border="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap">Feb 14, 2006</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">07:44:00 AM</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">HOT SPRINGS AR US</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Out for delivery</td></tr></tbody></table>

Yay!
Not that I have any ducting to use with it, but it does give me a chance to put it together this weekend. :)

[Michael Melo]

I'm all for adequate dust collection. I run a very small shop for a living and was considering a cyclone. Frankly at this stage in my business spending $1000+ on a cyclone just is not in the cards so I purchased the same Delta you just ordered. It is used primarly on the planer and jointer (sometmes the drill press and router table) I have dedicated vacuums for the SCMS and Festool equipment I use.

This Delta does not have the power to run a duct system and effectively collect fine dust. My recommendation would be to get a short 6" flex pipe and connect it directly to the machine and the Delta (use a graduating connection from the machine's 4" port to the flex hose.) Moving it from machine to machine. This may sound time consuming but presumably your batching your processes when building things anyways (its all about productivity in my biz.) For me the extra (literally) couple of seconds it takes to move and plug the hose into the machine is perfectly acceptable.

Best of all you'll get excellent dust collection. If you hate changing bags and/or cleaning the filter often pick up a Lee Valley cyclone lid and turn the Delta into a two stage unit but keep the ducting system out of it if you want optimum performance.

M

[Jeffrey Makiel]

To deal with this dust three things need to happen.
You fix your tools so they do not spray the fine dust all over;
You move enough air to capture that fine dust as it is made; and,
You get rid of the fine dust by either blowing it away outside of filtering it off. Here in lies the problem for home shops: Capturing the dust at its source. Perhaps easier said than done. In fact, it seems impossible to me as a hobbyist.

For example, how do I capture dust effectively on my tablesaw while using a tenoning jig, or raising panels? How about when I’m cutting dados and grooves? For me to do these tasks, my overarm guard, which has dust collection capability, is retracted out of the way and only the lower dust port on the cabinet is functioning. Even when the overarm guard is deployed, I still see plenty of dust on my sweatshirt and on the floor as the dust particles zoom tangentially off the blade looking for any way to escape. The same goes for my radial arm saw which has a large rear hood and a second pickup off the blade guard. The same goes for my edge sander that has an improved shop made hood. And so forth and so on…

Let's look at the other bad things I do with my portable power tools. Even though I try to use a vacuum with my sheet and disc sanders, dust is still thrown everywhere. It gets worse when the sanding pad is wider than the part. Sure I could run my dust collection system, but at 500 to 600 cfm, it simply can't keep up with dust generation into the ambient air by my sander. Perhaps I should buy or build a down draft table? But how will I lift that chest of drawers onto it? And where will the down draft table go? Perhaps I'll just get rid of the tablesaw and put it in its place. Great idea. Now I can reduce dust generation by a factor of two!

Ok, I'm done power sanding, biscuit joining, routing, drilling and whatever, with my portable power tools. Now comes hand sanding, a dreaded task even without the dust factor. I have to admit, I don't duct tape a vacuum hose to my arm. So, once again, dust is in the air. By the way, I want to feel the progress of my sanding effort, so I brush my hand over the surface. Uh oh, shouldn't have done that!

That's it! I'm done for the day. I polluted the air enough. Time to clean up the shop. Uh oh. Now I'm stirring up all that dust up again. You know which dust, the dust from my previous negligent behavior, with a broom. Perhaps I’ll use a good quality HEPA vacuum…but there’s more trouble as I move stuff around to get at the visible chips that I don't want to track in the rest of the house.

I can't win. Is it because of my dust collection system? Perhaps I'm just ignorant. Or perhaps that’s the nature of home woodworking.

I believe that a dust collection system for a home workshop should be assumed to capture only some of the dust, and only capture the "nuisance" dust and none of the fine particulate dust. Stay with me. This is a conservative approach! I don't care if I have a 5 micron filter, 2 micron filter, or 0.5 micron filter. In fact, I don't care if I ducted my dust collector's exhaust to Mars. It just ain't going to capture the dust from all the different things I do while working with wood. And I'd be kidding myself if it did.

The point I'm making is that if you feel the risk of wood dust exposure is that significant from your hobby, buy a good quality passive or positive air respirator that is NIOSH rated for particulate matter, and make sure it fits well. If I described the things I do in my hobby woodshop to an industrial hygienist, I bet I would hear three words: "personal protective equipment" (that is, respirators!). Don’t believe me? Ask any asbestos worker why they wear a respiratory while using portable HEPA filtration systems, HEPA vacuums, glove bags, water spray, and negative air enclosures.

As for me, I have chosen to take the risk and not wear a respirator because of my wanting to be comfortable while doing one of my favorite hobbies. Frankly, I’ve accepted this risk and rationalize it against other risks in my life, both voluntary and involuntary, including driving to work on US Route #1 in New Jersey!

I do have a decent dust collection system. At least that is my position. It is simply a 2hp single stage unit with some minor enhancements including needle felt bags and 6" duct. That's the extent of my engineering even though I once designed HVAC systems as a professional engineer.

Could dust collection only be done with a cyclone? I don't think so. In fact, I bet my single stage system with decent bags produces more cfm at a given static pressure than a cyclone at the same amp draw even with the lower bag half full. But what difference does it make when I don't capture the dust at its source doing all the things we hobbyist woodworkers do. But I must admit that I don't like fussing with the bags when it's cleaning time. But then again, I don't do woodworking for a living. And time is not money.

My recommendation is to not wrap one's self up too tight in technical jargon when putting together a home dust collection system. I do recommend good filtration media, and erring on the side of overkill is better than underkill. I won't (can't) tell you that breathing the air in your home shop is not without some degree of risk. But I will tell you that your dust collection system is not really the proper answer to complete protection of your health should this be your driving concern. It's nice that dust collection equipment for the home hobbyist has gotten better, and so has the general knowledge through forums as this one. But I also wonder if there is over exageration of the true risks. If not, then we may all be fooling ourselves with our super duper dust collection systems. As for me, I just subtracted the three minutes off the end of my life and moved on.

It’s only my opinion. And I’ve certainly been wrong before!

cheers, Jeff :)
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o>:p></o>:p>

[Steven Wilson]

Well Jeff, I sort of felt the way you do untill I started spending a lot of time at the doctors office suffering from sinus infections and spending most of my time on antibiotics. There are a number of ways you can improve dust handling at home

1) Buy tools with decent dust collection. I sold my PC sanders and bought Festool mainly for better dust collection.

2) Get a decent shop vac that isn't real noisy. If the vac isn't a screeming banshee then you're more likely to use it with your circular saw, sanders, etc.

3) Buy stationary tools of a more modern design. The dust collection facilities on my Eurocombination machine are light years better than the old style iron that I use to have. It's amazing how much dust can be sucked up when your duct work extends all the way through your tablesaw cabinet and right up to the blade.

4) Use hand tools. I use hand planes and scrapers a lot because they're not only very accurate, quick, and fun but they also don't produce much dust, they produce shavings. Nice curly shavings don't clog up your lungs like sanding does.

5) Use a small downdraft table for handsanding small parts.

6) If you have duct work then you're impellor better be 14" or better or you aren't in the game. A decent DC unit is a pleasure in the shop. It's enjoyable to have the exhaust air cleaner than your house air.

7) Wear a respirator. There are still a few operations that I wear a respirator for but their a lot fewer in number than a few years back.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Steven,
Your strategy to 'improve' conditions seems like a good one. However, in my mind, the only way to truly 'prevent' problems is with item number 7. At least, that is what my common sense tells me when I look at all the different tasks I do in my home woodshop. And item #7 is probably the most inexpensive item on your list.

As for me, I probably don't have as well of an equipped shop that you have. Most of my machines are old and were purchased when my financial situation, and my back, were better. However, if the risks are as high as adverstised, and the consequences are as grim as suggested by some sources, thus requiring I replace all my tooling as part of a hollistic approach, I'd probably just quit the hobby. All in all, your underlying recommendation about keeping one' self healthy via mimimizing exposure is sound position and something that I simply can't argue against.
cheers, Jeff

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Jeff,

Another reason for trying to improve the air quality in your shop compared to only wearing a respirator is if your shop air will "leak" into the rest of the house (basement shop) or if your shop is in a garage like mine. My asthmatic wife goes in the garage to get to her car or the freezer. In my situation having excellent dust collection at the source is the only way to go.

Her lungs are a great indicator of the air quality. Since installing the cyclone and also using a large shop vac with a HEPA filter for the small tools, she has been in my shop without a respirator with no ill affects. She had problems before the DC upgrades. It's definitely working.

Side note about tablesaw overhead dust pickups: You mentioned yours wasn't really that effective. It's your gear. My cyclone paired with an Excalibur does an excellent job. Not with a tenoning jig though... ;)

Cheers,

Allan

[Julio Navarro]

Whoa!!!!!!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I have a basement shop, but I'm able to isolate it from the rest of my home with a door equipped with a door sweep. When I'm using a random orbital sander, palm sander or just hand sanding, I usually put a window fan on and open a window at the other end to let fresh air in to augment the dust that doesn't get picked up by the vacuum. This really moves a lot of air and gets rid of dust as well as fumes from finishes and off gassing of manmade materials. It also creates a negative air pressure to prevent dust from leaving the shop when somebody enters or exits the room. This technique has proven to be very effective for me. The only problem with this approach is that it gets cold this time of year and I end up heating the neighborhood. So I only reserve this when my other means are ineffective. Actually, my preferred method of sanding is outside in the backyard. But this is not always practical.

As far as my equipment goes, I don't think my woodworking machines, and my dust collection system, are any better or worse than most. My 2hp single stage dust collector has great air flow capacity because there is no pressure loss from a cyclone that is quite significant. This translates into more cfm from a 2 hp fan with a 12 radial wheel. For a cyclone to overcome this, you would probably need 3hp to 5hp with a 14" wheel to offset the loss. The other positive features are to use 6" rigid duct with nice straight runs, and make sure to not have an elbow near the fan's inlet. It's actually common sense, and one doesn't need to understand Bernoulli's principle to install a system.

Further, I believe that people have been lead to believe that the air quality leaving a 1 micron single stage dust collector is not as good as the air quality leaving a 1 micron filter on a cyclone dust collection system. It like saying which weighs more: one pound of cotton or one pound of nails? The true benefit of a cyclone is that they are easier to keep clean than a single stage bag or canister system because of pre-separation which is one of the reasons why I used cyclone systems in commercial design. However, I have a hobby woodshop, and it takes me quite a while to fill the lower bag that I only fill half way due to its heavy weight and my questionable back. But this is not a system I recommend for a commercial user because of its maintenance demand. And lack of maintenance will lead to lower flow.

But what does this have to do with hand sanding and portable power tools usage anyway? These tasks are often omitted when folks talk about dust collection. One should probably not believe that harmful dust only comes from large stationary machines especially if one is a general hobbyist woodworker like me. Again, this is only an assumption on my part.

Lastly, (before I run out of hot air :)) I would like to reiterate my previous point that a hobbyist uses a machine in many different ways to overcome the lack of having dedicated machines that exist in a commercial shop. If you do not have good hood design, or the operation you are doing prevents you from having a good envelope of capture, the efficiency of your dust collector is academic, and the only guaranteed line of defense is a respirator. Once again, my tablesaw is a prime example.

Again, it's only my opinion and it's on the internet. Take it for what it's worth. :)

cheers, Jeff