Delta 12 /14 alongside sliding saw

[andrew whicker]

So my ultimate vision so far is to have a full size sliding saw and a nice cabinet saw or short stroke saw. (Large sliding saw vision is admittedly shaky as I may save up for a cnc instead).

I am always keeping an eye on local for sale stuff and came across a Delta 12/14. Doubt I'll go with it, but it made me wonder if having a cabinet or short slider with 12 inch blade would help with blade overlap between the big slider and this saw?

Are the arbors on most euro sliders compatible with 1 inch bores? I'm assuming not, but thought to ask the Sawmill hive mind before going down the Google rabbit hole.

Cheers!

[John Pendery]

I have a setup very similar to what you’re describing with a 12’ slider and an old Martin T17 that’s more like a cabinet saw with a sliding table off to the side. I really like having both and feel they compliment each other nicely. I much prefer ripping on the T17, but if I could only have one it would have to be the large slider. If you ever break down sheet goods it’s amazing how fast you can accurately get your parts cut compared to a cabinet saw.

Arbor size is good to consider. Both of my saws and my shapers have 1.25” arbors/spindles so I can swap blades between saws, and I even use shaper cutters quite often on my T17 with the dado arbor extension. I would think you could use reduction bushings to make up the difference, but this might apply to shapers more so than saws. Most Euro sliders I see have 30mm arbors but most Martins in the states I come across have 1.25”.

I don’t have any experience with the Delta 12/14, but I would hold out for a nice used slider if you can wait. I haven’t ventured into the CNC world yet, but if/when I do I would not sell my slider. I find myself using 350mm blades 95% of the time but nice that the saws can accept larger if need be.

[Jim Becker]

SCM/Minimax uses 5/8 and 1" bore for the North American market (at least in my experience) but you may be looking at a different situation with other Euro brands. Felder and many others do the 30mm arbor thing. Vintage may matter if you are shopping used. That said, many shops like the utility of having a second table saw for utility, such as dado/grooving and "traditional" ripping along the fence which is a bit uncomfortable to do on a large slider due to the machine mass required to support the wagon getting in the way of where folks prefer to stand.

Now in my shop, I have both a short stroke slider and a CNC. They are complimentary. But I'm not a commercial shop, so my needs are likely different.

[Bill Dufour]

There is a guy on ebay making stub arbors and nuts for the delta 12/14. I am sure he would make you a metric arbor for around $200 for the stub arbor and nut. Not all 12/14 saws had a replaceable stub arbor. Some had a one piece arbor only. Grizzly no longer sells their arbors or the saw copy.
Bill D

[Mark Balmer]

If nothing else the timing of your post is quite the coincidence. I have a Griggio 10' SC-3000 slider, a Delta 12 14, and a Unisaw, and have spent the last week thinking about shop layout and which saws to keep, and how to lay them out.

I'm going to try to keep all three by using the Delta saws, set at 90 degrees to the slider, as outfeeds for the slider. That's the idea anyway.

Planned usage of the slider is primarily straight-line rips, some ripping to width, and sizing/squaring panels (after breaking down sheets with track saw). Keeping the 12 14 for higher-volume power-feeder rips, etc. Unisaw for smaller/odd hand feed usage - and because it was my first saw and I put a lot of effort into refurbishing it.

I got a good deal on the 12 14 not too long ago. Recently I saw a Griggio 1600 slider for about the same as I paid for the 12 14 and was thinking of getting it to 1) replace the 12 14, and 2) pick up some of the accessory pieces to compliment the 3000.

Blade wise, a good selection of blades came with the 12 14 and Griggio. In my case is would be which is the better saw (12 14 or 1600). There are trade-offs layout wise. I got the 12 14 from the original owner (pro shop) and they used it for all their ripping.

I'm giving up storage space to have the saws instead of cabinets under the slider outfeed. It's easier for me to start with the saws, since I already have them, and switch later if I only need the slider.

mark

[Bill Dufour]

Mark, this may not apply to your use but.. On my 12/14 I removed the plinth which dropped the saw 5". Then I added a mobile base which raised it 5". My mobile base was a simple frame of 2x4 iron channel welded into a ladder frame. A sheet of plywood on top to close off the base for dust collection then the saw base sitting on top.
Bill D

[andrew whicker]

What type of cutters are you using on your saw? I never thought about that before. I suppose a groover?

[John Erickson]

I have an old Delta 12/14 saw that acts as an out feed table to my Altendorf F45 3m slider. The main reason for them facing each other back to back is, I straight line the first edge using my slider then finish the second cut on my 12/14 using a feeder. It works well for me to glue line cut my panel parts this way for glue up, both saws use Gladu glue line tcg blades.

[Erik Loza]

Andrew: Pics from one of my commercial customers’ shops. That cabinet saw serves as the outfeed table for the large slider, though blade arbors are different. He loves this setup.

Erik

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[John Pendery]

What type of cutters are you using on your saw? I never thought about that before. I suppose a groover?

Yes, mostly adjustable groovers and occasionally shallow profiles. When I do haunched tenons I often like to angle them to conceal the haunch and I use the sliding table/crosscut fence with a large diameter beveled cutter. I’ve started doing this more on the shaper with a bolt on table but depending on machine set ups it’s convenient to have the choice. Maybe having machines with the same size arbor/spindle is not super important, but I do find it handy.

I moved shops not long ago and have been playing around with layouts. My old setup when I had the cabinet saw with my sliding table saw was exactly like the picture Erik posted. Trying to get organized and keep up with work has proven tough!

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[andrew whicker]

I have an old Delta 12/14 saw that acts as an out feed table to my Altendorf F45 3m slider. The main reason for them facing each other back to back is, I straight line the first edge using my slider then finish the second cut on my 12/14 using a feeder. It works well for me to glue line cut my panel parts this way for glue up, both saws use Gladu glue line tcg blades.

I'm a little confused with the description...

Do you have photos?

[andrew whicker]

If nothing else the timing of your post is quite the coincidence. I have a Griggio 10' SC-3000 slider, a Delta 12 14, and a Unisaw, and have spent the last week thinking about shop layout and which saws to keep, and how to lay them out.

I'm going to try to keep all three by using the Delta saws, set at 90 degrees to the slider, as outfeeds for the slider. That's the idea anyway.

Planned usage of the slider is primarily straight-line rips, some ripping to width, and sizing/squaring panels (after breaking down sheets with track saw). Keeping the 12 14 for higher-volume power-feeder rips, etc. Unisaw for smaller/odd hand feed usage - and because it was my first saw and I put a lot of effort into refurbishing it.

I got a good deal on the 12 14 not too long ago. Recently I saw a Griggio 1600 slider for about the same as I paid for the 12 14 and was thinking of getting it to 1) replace the 12 14, and 2) pick up some of the accessory pieces to compliment the 3000.

Blade wise, a good selection of blades came with the 12 14 and Griggio. In my case is would be which is the better saw (12 14 or 1600). There are trade-offs layout wise. I got the 12 14 from the original owner (pro shop) and they used it for all their ripping.

I'm giving up storage space to have the saws instead of cabinets under the slider outfeed. It's easier for me to start with the saws, since I already have them, and switch later if I only need the slider.

mark

That sounds pretty awesome. I have a Griggio shaper and I love it. I saw a griggio 3200 for sale on ebay for 3500.

Tempting for sure if their saws are made as heavy as their shapers. How do you like the Griggio?

This 12 14 looked really beat up and doesn't even have a fence and they want 500. I'm thinking sure. I'll wait and see if you get that.

I don't mind taking on small tool projects (belts, maybe bearings) but tearing it all apart... for a cabinet saw... hmmm.. I'm not really into it.

[Kevin Jenness]

A full size sliding table saw and a cabinet saw back to back are a great combination. If you could find two saws with the same arbor size that would be a nice combination, as would be a saw that would take shaper tooling, but neither are essential. A few extra saw blades wouldn't set you back that much. If you have the room for a full format slider it will improve your panel handling in a big way, as would a vertical panel saw. Shuffling panels around between different machines or removing and replacing the crosscut fence on a short slider is a waste of time.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Shuffling panels around between different machines or removing and replacing the crosscut fence on a short slider is a waste of time.


As someone who does this out of necessity / nowhere near enough space, I can confirm that yes, it is certainly a waste of time.

I used to have a nice Tannewitz "cabinet" saw back to back with my short stroke slider for about a year. It worked reasonably well and was certainly nice to have 2 saws setup. I did not really have enough space for the arrangement to be fully realized and efficient and had an offer on the Tannewitz that convinced me to re-home it without much regret. In a bigger space, I would absolutely do it again.

[Mark Balmer]

Mark, this may not apply to your use but.. On my 12/14 I removed the plinth which dropped the saw 5". Then I added a mobile base which raised it 5". My mobile base was a simple frame of 2x4 iron channel welded into a ladder frame. A sheet of plywood on top to close off the base for dust collection then the saw base sitting on top.
Bill D

Bill - Thanks for the idea. I'd considered dropping the 12 14 to make it easier to reach across but that can't be done if I want to have it the same height as the slider, which can't be made lower. Part of my sort of wacky 90 degree orientation was because the depth of the 12 14 is very close to the width of the slider top - and I envisioned using the slider outrigger for extra outfeed depth on the 12 14 and Unisaw. Having it mobile might open up other options, or at least make servicing easier. Maybe just something that lets me use a pallet jack.

mark

[Mark Balmer]

That sounds pretty awesome. I have a Griggio shaper and I love it. I saw a griggio 3200 for sale on ebay for 3500.

Tempting for sure if their saws are made as heavy as their shapers. How do you like the Griggio?

This 12 14 looked really beat up and doesn't even have a fence and they want 500. I'm thinking sure. I'll wait and see if you get that.

I don't mind taking on small tool projects (belts, maybe bearings) but tearing it all apart... for a cabinet saw... hmmm.. I'm not really into it.


Andrew -

Which shaper do you have? I have a line on both a MiniMax T40N in nice shape with the fence, etc for a really good price, and a Griggio T800 which is the same era as the SC3000 - not sure of price or extras yet. Almost no info on the T800 that I can find. Welcome any insights you might have.

I haven't used the Griggio or the 12 14 yet.

The Griggio has been in storage waiting for completion of a bigger shop. I bought it used from a reputable local dealer during one of the economic downturns. The best professional woodworker I knew at the time had Griggio equipment. He had the Griggio's for a long time before upgrading to Martins. From what I've read the operating parts need to be in good shape because replacement can be hard to find. As a hobbyist it'll be a huge step up from the Unisaw and will easily outlast me. I'm no expert, but it seems like Griggio is running a bit under the radar these days since the brand hasn't been around for awhile, never sold in the volumes that most the other brands did, and there's little information about them available - unlike most of the Euro-brands and vintage US iron.

As you probably know the 12 14 has a good reputation although there are mixed feelings about the distance from the front of the saw to the blade. It provides extra infeed length but is harder to reach past, depending on your height and usage. That's one reason I'm keeping the Unisaw. That being said... I think you are right to let that one go. I picked up my 12 14 about a year ago at an auction for around $800 from the original owner. It had been used in a pro shop all those years but kept in good condition. It came with the fence, rails, dado set, ~6 blades, storage cabinet, a monster 4-wheel variable-speed Inver feeder with horizontal motor, and a really cool shop-built blade guard. If I'd had room it also came with extra shop-built side and outfeed tables. Helped offset some of my not so brilliant purchases :-)

mark

[andrew whicker]

Mark,

Unfortunately, I'm not a lot of help on equipment knowledge. I have good knowledge about what I do own and I'm gaining knowledge about other pieces thru this forum, but otherwise can't be super helpful.

I have the Griggio T1100 (1.25" spindle and tilting spindle). It's an older model (I forget the year), but I think newer versions had the spindle tilt more backwards than mine does. It's a beast though. Super well made, was pretty easy to get running. I had a place in Wisconsin make me a new spindle. I'll have to look them up again if you need a machine shop for spindles. He was recommended on this forum and he did a good job (albeit a bit slower than he promised). The motors (it has one motor for lifting and tilting. The other motor is the spindle motor) needed some love and that was worst part, but only from a learning curve perspective. Now that I know more, the motor issues I had wouldn't scare me away.

Phillip Mitchell on this forum has a smaller Griggio and he is pretty darn knowledgeable on all kinds of equipment. An awesome resource.

That sounds like a great purchase! There's a guy in WY selling a Powermatic that looks to be in the 12" / 14" blade range in much better condition with a much beefier fence. I'm just looking around though. My next actual purchase (not just me spitballing ideas) is going to be a shipping container to store lumber, etc. to clear up space in my shop. The rest of the time, I'm looking on local ads and asking questions here.

The idea of a powerfeeder on a big cabinet saw seems ideal to me.

[Mark Balmer]

Andrew,

Thanks for the info on the Griggio. The one I'm looking at is probably from the 80's and may need some work. The T1100 is definitely a step up from the T800. Looking at the T40N and T800 because I already have a larger shaper and am looking for something well built but with a smaller footprint.

[andrew whicker]

Sorry T45.

Not sure where 1100 came from. : )