The Dummy's Guide to European Bandsaw Setup

[Erik Loza]

Seems like questions about Minimax bandsaws have been popping up and I wondered if there could be an opportunity to condense knowledge into and level-set some best-practices for setup? First, any contemporary Italian or large Austrian bandsaw ought be very straightforward to set up and get cutting the way you want. You shouldn’t need anything beyond basic hand tools and a carpenter’s square to get a machine cutting the way you want. Sometimes, when Italian bandsaws gets mentioned, the experiences shared will be regarding vintage machines. That is not a problem in of and of itself, except that many of the Italian saws that were sold prior to the year 2000 were one-off units, with no consistent build spec but more importantly, this does not factor in the inevitable wear-and-tear or even abuse that industrial shop machines experienced. Just like trying to restore a classic car, the work you need to get a vintage machine running may not be required on a contemporary, well cared-for machine.


Everything I am discussing here will pertain to saws sold in the North American market AFTER the year 2000. That date is significant because it was at this point that the dominant manufacturers and dealers began standardizing the design and spec of their machines. More specifically, you can apply anything I say, below, to contemporary Minimax, Centauro, ACM, Agazzani, Meber, or larger Felder bandsaws. First, a caveat:


-The information in this post is my opinion, alone, and not necessarily shared or endorsed by any of the brands mentioned. Bandsaws are one of the safer machines in the shop but are still very capable of sending you to the hospital. The operator assumes all risk associated with working on a piece of industrial machinery and, as always, if you are not comfortable working on your machine, then HIRE SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU.


OK, Erik: Why are you qualified to give this advice?:
I was a sales representative for Minimax USA from 2004-2010, then an independent dealer for SCM Group-North America from 2010-2016.

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During that time, I probably sold a thousand Minimax bandsaws but more importantly, have rebuilt/tuned-up/demo’ed hundreds. A common scenario would be delivering an MM16 or MM20 to a trade show for the buyer to pick up and take home. In those cases, it’s the Minimax rep’s responsibility to get that machine uncrated, cleaned, assembled, and cutting in show-worthy condition within a span of a few hours. This repetition caused us to get very good at setting up bandsaws under a time crunch. So, I’d like to share with you the steps I used:


1.) Machine upright, assembled, stable and leveled, powered up, and dust collection fitted.

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2.) Fit and track blade: My suggestion is always to perform this step with the width blade you most commonly see yourself using and just enough tension to keep the blade on both wheels. European bandsaws all have flat wheels and tires. This is a huge advantage and bypasses many of the issues owners of crowned-tire machines. There is no need to check co-planarity of the wheels…Or at least I have never needed to.

Tracking is accomplished by camber adjustments to both the upper and lower wheels. You tilt the wheel and blade moves either fore or aft on the tires. During final inspection, the factory typically sets the camber of the lower wheel and means for the user to leave it there. The standard design on Euro saws is a set of four clock bolts on the lower wheel arbor shaft. In my experience, where the factory sets the lower wheel is generally good enough to work. However in some cases, it did require additional adjustment. If anyone wants a walk-through on that, I’d be happy to discuss in a separate post. For now, let’s assume that the factory left the lower wheel where we want it, which was usually the case. Consider the lower wheel a “fixed pivot point” and the upper wheel, your dynamic tracking adjustment. Get your blade tracked on lower wheel, where you want it. For blades greater than 3/4” in width, I track with the teeth hanging off the front of the wheel. This is primarily to avoid tearing up the tire. For blades 1/2” and narrower, feel free to track anywhere across the width of the wheel. The tooth size on blades of that width are not really enough to damage your tire. OK, so blade is now on the lower wheel and tracked where we want. Process is identical for the upper wheel, using quick-adjust knob on the rear of the upper cabinet to bring the blade into range. I spin the upper wheel with my left hand while turning the knob with my right, sighting on the top of the upper wheel. The blade should move fore and aft on the upper wheel within one or two revolutions. Blade is now tracked, under minimum tension.

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3.) Working tension: Time to get the blade up to WORKING tension. I say “working” tension because the amount of a tension something like a 1” Lenox Woodmaster CT will need in order to cut 5/4 stock, versus the amount of tension it will need to cut something like a 12” tall veneer will be different. Personally, I like to operate with the minimum amount of tension needed for a given cut. I cannot scientifically back this up but it just seems like less tension = better blade life. I have never found the need for a tension gauge but if that helps your work, then by all means. In any case, it will be virtually impossible to hurt one of these machines by cranking the tension up to 35,000psi or whatever.

4.) Set the guides: Many of these machines were sold with what is referred to as “Euro-style” guides, which came in a number of variations but generally speaking, consisted of metal-faced discs for both side and thrust (rear). These are often referred to as “bearings” but more accurately, are bushings. The Minimax S45N is unique in that it does actually use sealed bearings. Ceramic guides became popular in the late 2000’s and are even OEM from several vendors, now. I have much less firsthand experience with ceramics than Euro guides but in any case, the process and logic behind the adjustments should be the same.

Since most owners buy a Euro saw for resawing, let’s assume a 1” blade. Starting the with upper guides, lower the guidepost most of the way down to the table and BACK THE GUIDES COMPLETELY AWAY FROM THE BLADE. We want plenty of free space to work with. Now, bring the side guides back toward the blade, leaving about a matchbook’s thickness of free space on each side. For this next step, I wear a leather glove, though a block of wood will work. With your hand, grab the blade and push forward with reasonable strength. We are trying to duplicate the movement the blade will experience during heavy use. Make a note of how far that blade moves forward and position the guides (still leaving matchbook space) so that the teeth don’t quite touch the leading edge of the guide disc, then lock those guides down. Lateral guides are now set.

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Now, to the thrust bearing. Same process with the leather glove or block of wood. On an MM16 and Lenox carbide, I found that my thrust bearings were generally set about 1/2” away from the back edge of the blade. Once the upper guides are set, duplicate the process for the lowers, making sure the guide assembly is as far up into the throat of the table as possible.

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When resawing on large machines like these, the guides’ only job is to prevent dangerous overtravel of the blade. Beam strength of the machine and blade tension are doing the work, not the guides. However, if using something like a 3/8” or 1/4” blade for, say scrolling work, due to the large span between flywheels on a tall resaw machines like these, that blade really wants to twist and pull. Because of this, we actually DO want to pinch the blade. Coolblocks are a common solution as well as the Carter Stabilizer.

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5.) Square the table to the blade: Self-explanatory, any decent square will work. There is usually a stop-bolt and locking nut located under the inboard edge of the table.

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6.) Square the fence to the cast iron table: MM-series bandsaws use a simpler fence design than the more common ACMs. On MM’s, use shim stock, if needed, to square the fence. With ACM’s and others that use a fence which is “captive” to the guide bar, you may need to make the adjustment to the guide bar before tweaking the fence.

7). Make the fence parallel to the blade: I simply loosen the fence, then match it to the mitre slot with my thumbs before locking down. I believe the human fingertip can feel differences down to the thousandth of an inch and this has always worked adequately for me.

8.) Start making sawdust!: There are lots of additional adjustments and tweaking you can do but these steps were my standard MO for getting a bandsaw ready for a trade show, customer, demo, etc.

Additional thoughts and observations:

-The vast majority of cut-quality complaints from new owners were caused by lack of adequate blade tension. Understandable, since most small bandsaws will start to flex or otherwise misbehave as you try to get that 1” blade cutting right but when it comes to Euro saws, crank away! Trust me: You’ll snap the blade long before the machine starts to complain.

-The #2 reason for resaw quality complaints was setting the guides too close to the blade. This results in noisy, irregular cuts as well as destroying the thrust bearing. Let the blade do the work, not the guides.

-Using the machine’s tension gauge as a benchmark is not usually helpful. All these machines have integrated tension gauges, which call out blade widths. I have no idea what blades the factory used to arrive at these suggestions but at least on Centauros, they were VERY conservative. That being said, the gauges might not be accurate but they are consistent, which is useful. My suggestion to owners was to fit and tension the blade you use the most, then put a sharpie mark where the gauge pointer is. At least this way, you have a quick reference point to come back to on your most frequently-used blade.

-Formal manuals and documentation are “spartan”, to say the least. I use to joke with new MM16 owners that you were getting the best machine, along with the worst manual! Also, many of these manuals were translated from Italian and suffer from losing things in translation. For example, one manual for an Italian sliding panel saw specifies “petrol” as a guideway lubricant. The Italians meant “diesel fuel” but “petrol” is gasoline to most of us. Point being, the manufacturers consider bandsaws to be the most basic of machines and it’s, “Here’s the schematic. What else would you need?”, so any additional content is subjective.

-Blades are consumable. Buy a range and either discard or sharpen as needed. It can be the best bandsaw in the world but if you’ve gone through thousands of board-feet on that one blade, then it’s not a machine issue when you start getting a rough cut. The beauty of Euro saws is that they will bring out the best in any type of blade you put on them, so don’t be afraid to experiment. You learn by breaking blades!

I hope this is useful and if you happen to own a European bandsaw (especially a Centauro!), then you have a really great tool in your shop.

Erik

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[Clark Hussey]

Thanks Eric! Interesting information.

[Tom Trees]

I hope this is useful and if you happen to own a European bandsaw (especially a Centauro!), then you have a really great tool in your shop.

Erik

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I agree, as it's certainly worth getting something worth working on, and if you intend to keep the saw in good nick, then you could align everything properly thereafter.
Should you not need to sort it out properly immediately, that is.
Without motor adjustment (as with all manufacturers making any sheet metal saw, the same deal with all of 'em)
So a bit of a lottery in that regards, but worse case scenario is you still have an excellent machine to work on, compared to finding other surprises one might find
on something lesser, should they investigate.

A testament to the components in Italian bandsaws, it's not just the much nicer guides one is getting when choosing one.

All the best
Tom

[Erik Loza]

Let me think about all the times I've needed to "align the motor" on a Centauro. Ummm..... Wait: NEVER!

Erik

[John Lanciani]

Let me think about all the times I've needed to "align the motor" on a Centauro. Ummm..... Wait: NEVER!

Erik

Had my MM20 for +/-15 years. here is a list of things I never had to do;

Align the motor

Replace drive belts

Replace motor (or wheel) bearings

Replace tires

"tram" the upper and lower wheels

dress the edges of the tires

Cut a hole in the saw

shade-tree engineer a motor mount

Weld any part of it


In fairness, I did have to true the tires to be concentric with the wheels, but when I did it I made sure that they were truly flat as well. I also replaced the tension spring as I wasn't completely satisfied with how much tension I could put on a 1" Lenox Trimaster with the stock spring. The saw was used exclusively with that blade at 25-27k psi cutting miles of 12-15" wide veneer to 1/16" thick with .005 total deviation. The saw is now in the care of a fellow creeker and to the best of my knowledge he hasn't done anything on the above list either.

[Erik Loza]

John, agree 100%. One observation I made was that it sometimes took a while for new owners to "trust" their saw. By that, I mean that many folks had invested in so much time in fussing with their previous 12" and 14" saws that it took them a while to realize that they no longer need to do any of that in order to get great results with the new machine. During the mid 2000's, when bowl turning was all the craze, it was kind of known among the trade show vendors to "take it to the Minimax booth and they'll cut it up for you". This was great publicity and the fun part was that you could be cutting up a huge burl one moment, then doing a veneer demo the next. And the saws never skipped a beat. I'm not even a woodworker and if someone offered me an MM16 for a bargain, I might just get it because that machine is so much fun to use. All Italian saws are fine but MM's are something special and we will probably never see a saw of that spec, again.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

The older CO from the 80's to mid 90's is a better design though, in regards to longevity.
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Though not forgetting some Meber's
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Multico's
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, and even some Sagitario's also featuring
motor adjustability.
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You get to see the lemons made from all round the world on ebay, which pose the best questions.

Which one of them will have a revision first I wonder?

[Erik Loza]

Tom, it’s clear that you prefer vintage machines. That’s great. Like I stated in the opening paragraph of the original post, this thread is about CONTEMPORARY European bandsaws, not vintage machines. If you’d like to discuss modern bandsaws, then please do, but I would ask you to refrain from adding any further “the old ways are better”-type opinions in this thread. All that does is get posts deleted, hands slapped, etc. None of which is in the spirit of Sawmill Creek. Thank you,

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Fingers crossed I am discussing modern Italian bandsaws Erik!:)

Happy new year to you

Tom

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve had to replace things in my saw. The lower wheel bearings died, I replaced them with SKF Explorer bearings which are higher precision than the OEM. I reset the wheels to be parallel to avoid having an axial load. The new bearings and I assume the old, are rated for axial load but clearly they did not survive it for years under the tension required for a 1” carbide tooth blade.

The squeal at startup was an annoying feature of the machine which SCM told me was typical. I tightened the belt using a prybar to raise the motor and the noise went away.

The miter slot is a good place to align the fence, so long as the table is well aligned to the machine. There is a fair amount of play in the assembly so if you loosen it for any reason, be aware of that.

Fencr alignment is critical, especially if you use a light duty feeder. Light duty feeders overpower the fence pin in my experience so I bored the fence for a heavy pin and very heavy shoulder bolt.

[Stephen Bandirola]

I agree Erik, European saw are voodoo free,(no BS adjustments needed) they just work.

[andrew whicker]

In fairness, I did have to true the tires to be concentric with the wheels, but when I did it I made sure that they were truly flat as well. I also replaced the tension spring as I wasn't completely satisfied with how much tension I could put on a 1" Lenox Trimaster with the stock spring. The saw was used exclusively with that blade at 25-27k psi cutting miles of 12-15" wide veneer to 1/16" thick with .005 total deviation. The saw is now in the care of a fellow creeker and to the best of my knowledge he hasn't done anything on the above list either.

How did you true the tires?

[Steve Catts]

Erik,
I have a 2002/3 ish Laguna 18" Italian saw here in Katy. Only have about 10" resaw capacity under the guides. Would this vintage have been from the Centauro lineup? I mainly run a 1" Resaw King blade which was sharpened shortly after I got the saw a couple of years ago. All seems to be pretty good. Clean cuts on the flat or resaw. Having only my own limited experience, I'm not sure if I should expect to see no saw marks at all when resawing or not when properly set up. Right now, a light pass over the jointer (Hammer A3-31 silent head) cleans it all up.

Thoughts?

Steve

[Erik Loza]

Erik,
I have a 2002/3 ish Laguna 18" Italian saw here in Katy. Only have about 10" resaw capacity under the guides. Would this vintage have been from the Centauro lineup? I mainly run a 1" Resaw King blade which was sharpened shortly after I got the saw a couple of years ago. All seems to be pretty good. Clean cuts on the flat or resaw. Having only my own limited experience, I'm not sure if I should expect to see no saw marks at all when resawing or not when properly set up. Right now, a light pass over the jointer (Hammer A3-31 silent head) cleans it all up.

Thoughts?

Steve

Steve, if it’s Italian, then it would be an ACM. ACM is and always has been an OEM’er of Italian saws to various US dealers. Hope this answers your question.

Erik

[roger wiegand]

In fairness, I did have to true the tires to be concentric with the wheels, but when I did it I made sure that they were truly flat as well. I also replaced the tension spring as I wasn't completely satisfied with how much tension I could put on a 1" Lenox Trimaster with the stock spring. The saw was used exclusively with that blade at 25-27k psi cutting miles of 12-15" wide veneer to 1/16" thick with .005 total deviation. The saw is now in the care of a fellow creeker and to the best of my knowledge he hasn't done anything on the above list either.

It's continuing to slice beautiful veneer without any fiddling, as well as whack up the occasional tree trunk for turning projects. Just resawed all the wood for hundreds of organ pipes. What a pleasure to use!

[Dave Sabo]

I have a 2002/3 ish Laguna 18" Italian saw here in Katy. Only have about 10" resaw capacity under the guides. Would this vintage have been from the Centauro lineup?


Laguna , to my knowledge, never sourced from Centauro.

The LT saws have traditionally been made by ACM like Erik mentioned. Early on, they sourced a few of the smaller saws from Meber, but the arrangement was short lived.

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

[Tom Trees]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff
Sounds like "insufficient flywheel seal convexity" to me, (as per the Centauro SP manual.)
...or should I say a "Classico" example of tires which have withstood the test of time........;) here's wishing you a happy new year Bob! :)

If you dress your tires flat like I did, or indeed wear off the apex of the crown by disregarding or simply not knowing where the apex is,
whilst running narrow blades, then that will be the result.

No beam tension from the blade is what you could call it, well it's something like where both sides of the fence can meet,
though you could just call a spade a spade.
Those tires dressed like so, is a sure recipe for blade set compression, and that's counting running wider blades with teeth, strictly off the edge as per suggestions, the blade will be damaged with only a few cuts done.
Likewise, tracking narrow blades with teeth on the tire, will also do the same.
(I'd used that blade for the last tire dressing attempts, so those few test runs, no cutting involved, were enough to compress the set on this blade)

There's also some interesting things to note here, likely more than I can think of, but to mention a few things...
along with absolutely no beam tension whatsoever, none, zilch!
There's also the evidence of spelching on the underside of the cut, if you see that, then running standard blades might prove to be an expense a new user might not have accounted for, same deal with an m42 blade which didn't seem any different in that regards to me.

Not sure if there's much point in discussing some of the points like a clear pinged note from the pluck test,
Something which might be quite revealing, what I can't achieve now, since I haven't much rubber to play with anymore, I didn't get to experiment.
Having dressed these tires about a dozen times, it was just about possible to get the crowned profile on the rubber,
Which would be plain sailing now for me after learning my lessons.

I reckon there might be something into hearing a clear note, like a crisp tire apex, which one simply cannot discount the possible importance of, after seeing
how bad one could possibly make their saw run, and completely change matters with a bit of tire dressing.

https://youtu.be/UosmDQxn09c?si=VwzLuvxZc5rkm1Wn


No need for a new thrust guide anymore, me old welded one will do fine.

All the best
Happy new year
Tom

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

What I meant to say was that I’ve never been happy with the euro guides and that I don’t have any experience with other guides (except on a delta 14” saw).

[Mick Simon]

Thanks very much for taking the time to share your insights, Erik. Very informative.

[Erik Loza]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

Jeff, Agazzani made Agazzani! I believe Eagle Tools in SoCal was the lone US distributor. I heard that one of the German classical machine companies took over distribution right years ago but as far as I know, you can't actually buy an Agazzani any longer.

To answer your thrust bearing question, the chief culprit that I witnessed behind excessive thrust bearing wear was setting that bearing too close to the back edge of the blade. The typical scenario would be resawing with a wide blade, the blade gets forced into the bearing, and you then would then hear all sorts of metallic screeching. If this continues, it ends up scarring the face of the bearing. I vividly remember a gentleman bringing in the entire guide head from his MM16, back in the Minimax USA days. The thrust bearing had turned blue, looked like somebody gone after it with a sawzall, and was literally frozen inside its housing.

So, how do we solve this? First is to obviously set the thrust bearing farther back. I'm assuming blade greater than 3/4" in width? "If" doing this hurts cutting performance, I would wonder if you really have enough tension in that blade. The other scenario is that the tension is correct but the blade is dull. This forces you to push harder during the cut, which can drive the blade into the thrust bearing. We would see this with "one-blade owners": Still using the blade that came with their machine after thousands of board-feet.

Lastly, if you're unhappy with Euro guides, have you considered ceramics? I really didn't have much first-hand experience with them until coming back aboard with Felder, where they are standard equipment. Personally, I don't find them "better" than Euro guides but they are a lot more forgiving, since you can't really destroy ceramic. In your case, I might consider replacing the thrust bearings with Space Age ceramics: https://www.spaceageceramics.com/product/mini-max-euro-thrust-bearing-pin-2/

Hope this helps!


Thanks very much for taking the time to share your insights, Erik. Very informative.

Thank you, Mick!

[Warren Lake]

blade should not contact the rear bearing unless you are cutting. saw running no cutting the rear bearing should not be in contact and not moving.

Seen it enough bearings or guides set up way too high. Its in enough you tubes. The stuff is there to support the blade near where you are cutting not half a mile away.

[Erik Loza]

Warren, I have never found it beneficial to have the guides near the blade for any type of straight-line cutting with wider blades. To the contrary, setting the guides too close was a very common source of poor cutting performance among our customers. I used to do a demo of short veneer-cutting with an MM16, with the guides completely off the machine because guys at trade shows just couldn't believe it could be done. Again, my observations.

Erik

[Warren Lake]

no the guides are support for the blade when its working, having them far away only works against you. It will be worse as the blades get smaller. That makes no sense.

It also is related to how you work. Everyone works different and pushes more or less than others.

[lou Brava]

Nice write up Erik, can you enlighten me (a virtual novice compared to your experience) on what's the difference is in a "Euro" saw set up as opposed to a comparable saw made in some other land. I resaw with a Laguna SUV, ceramic guides using a a Resaw King 3/4 & 1" with a .024 backer, no tension gauge, set blade in center of tires or just slightly forward & it works well. The only thing I see different is on how you set guides. If your saw is tracking right wouldn't your guide set up hold true for any BS ? I'm going to try it.
I've seen/read different ways to set up a BS some experts say blade center, coplanar wheels, use a tension gauge, others say blade teeth forward on tire, don't worry about coplanar, don't use a tension gauge & a mix and match of all that advice. I guess what what I'm saying is isn't a BS a BS & a set up no matter what method you use would transfer from 1 machine to the next ?

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,

Thank you for the advise, I imagine my issue is a combination of a dull blade and setting the bearing too close. I really need to set up a sharpening system on the saw so I can touch up blades. I should really know better than to run a dull blade!

For what’s it worth (to everyone setting up a flat tired saw) mine is an Agazzani B-24, blades always set with the teeth just off the edge of the top wheel and with a new blade it runs like a scalded cat.

This reminds me that I need to order blades……and a set of ceramic thrust bearings.

[Erik Loza]

Jeff, Agazzani’s have probably the nicest fit and finish of any Italian saw. I have no way to prove this but always felt like Minimax modeled the S45N bandsaw after an Agazzani.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

Nice write up Erik, can you enlighten me (a virtual novice compared to your experience) on what's the difference is in a "Euro" saw set up as opposed to a comparable saw made in some other land. I resaw with a Laguna SUV, ceramic guides using a a Resaw King 3/4 & 1" with a .024 backer, no tension gauge, set blade in center of tires or just slightly forward & it works well. The only thing I see different is on how you set guides. If your saw is tracking right wouldn't your guide set up hold true for any BS ? I'm going to try it.
I've seen/read different ways to set up a BS some experts say blade center, coplanar wheels, use a tension gauge, others say blade teeth forward on tire, don't worry about coplanar, don't use a tension gauge & a mix and match of all that advice. I guess what what I'm saying is isn't a BS a BS & a set up no matter what method you use would transfer from 1 machine to the next ?

Lou, thanks and great questions. Aside from overall build quality, these are the two main differences that really caused buyers to want to step up:

1.) Frame strength as it relates to being able to put adequate tension into wider, exotic metal blades like carbides. A common complaint I heard from buyers was that they were trying to effectively use a 1” blade (any alloy, not just carbide) on a smaller saw and just get it cut satisfactorily. This was usually because the machine frame would start to flex before the blade came into the PSI range that it wanted in order to cut properly. With Euro saws, the frames are strong enough that you would snap the blade before the machine starts to complain.

2). The second advantage is having truly flat wheels, which makes blade tracking a breeze. For the life of me, I have no idea why bandsaw manufacturers still manufacture machines with crowned tires. Could it be because the mass-produced Asian machines are just cranking out clones of the next guy’s saw, without any real user insight? No clue but I will die on the “flat tires are best” hill. My dad had a Sears 12” bandsaw in his shop before he passed away. I was trying to help him out with some general maintenance and thought, “Oh, let me just put a fresh blade on his saw”. After about 15 minutes of trying to get this 1/4” blade to stay in the same spot on both wheels, I gave up. Blade tracking on a Euro machine is usually a 30-second affair. I’ve rebuilt a number of Centauros from the frame, up, and never needed to check co-planarity of the wheels. I mean, if you wanted to be really an*l, I guess but “not” checking never seemed to hurt cutting performance, so why create more work for yourself?

So, to answer your real question, “yes”, a bandsaw is still just a bandsaw but, due to some general and some very specific design differences, the Euro machines are much more flexible in terms of their application as well as being quicker and easier to set up. Does that answer make sense?

Erik

[Brian Holcombe]

I assume the majority of the aversion to checking co-planar has more to do with trying to keep brand new users from actually adjusting the lower wheel factory setting (which is likely very wise to have them avoid) more than anything else.

To me, it makes sense to check and assure that there is minimal axial load on the bearings and also that the saw is not applying a twist to the blade.

I don't recall exactly how I did this, but I believe it involved clamping a straight edge across each wheel and bridging a level across both straight edges, when they are parallel on x and y axis, but I may have done it with two levels and checked across both of them to sight them like a set of winding sticks.

This is perhaps best left for a saw that has been restored or repaired, or is running horribly, rather than something that is running well. My saw's bearings died very early so to me it was worth checking and I discovered them to be out of alignment enough that I decided to improve the settings.

For guides, I don't think it has been made explicit, but in my experience having them utilize the front portion of the guide (so that they can rotate if the saw blade touches them) has been best, Seems like that is in agreement with what you wrote.

[Tom Trees]

I assume the majority of the aversion to checking co-planar has more to do with trying to keep brand new users from actually adjusting the lower wheel factory setting .

Worth noting, if the faces of the wheels aren't dressed to within tolerance for doing so, then the straight edge could read anything.
I've mentioned earlier, that a 0.5mm discrepancy can show a 4mm variance, regarding projection of the beam.

There's not many machines out there which feature faced wheels, I presumed the tool marks on my wheels suggested such,
but it's likely not that accurate on any wheel machined the same, (nearly all from what I've seen)
and the scribing beam will tell when they are accurate enough to use for checking co-planar or alignment thereafter.
Much easier and not misleading like my other attempts at this.

Folks mentioning all this isn't necessary, as the wheels don't need to be aligned on either axis, but concerning the east/west adjustments,
fail to mention how much of a misalignment between the upper wheel and the motor is tolerable.
(non adjustable, unless you've got a foot mount motor, or adjustable mounting plate for the flange mount)

I've came across a few instances of this being very evident, from machines what didn't fall off a truck.
It's testament to the design and quality of the parts really, especially when you consider some like mine which had a hard life,
and no sort of troubleshooting guide available, apart from the... is it better or worse, clueless adjustments mentioned on some manuals.

All the best
Tom

[Brian Holcombe]

The wheels on my machine are cut. I suppose I could measure the runout but there is no visible runout when rotated by hand.

If they aren’t faced, then how would they make them accurate after machining the bore?

[Tom Trees]

The wheels on my machine are cut. I suppose I could measure the runout but there is no visible runout when rotated by hand.

If they aren’t faced, then how would they make them accurate after machining the bore?

Don't have an answer for you there Brian, but there's nothing precision on any part of my wheels, precision like the wheel bores for example, or the wheel OD...
i.e not the hubs either side of the upper wheel, nor with the lower hub on the front, though seems like it might be at the back where the belt hub is, I didn't measure that.
You'll likely see the hubs aren't machined by eye, but you won't be able to see that 0.5mm discrepancy I mentioned.

If the wheels were dressed, I guess they would likely look like they do on the larger models of ACM's machines
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and not like this, which looks to be the case with most Italian machines, if you look closely.
that is highlighted quite well in this photo.

One can also see some discrepancy in width on the face of the wheel, especially if they dress it, (should the wheel not be in tolerance for trusting already.)
The tape highlighted the high spots here, which was also the widest section, so definitely not the case of that being accurate either.
No issues with balance there, mind you...
So I've got no clue how they get the figs in the fig rolls?. :)
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Some old Centauro machines seem to be precision machined, just a guess though.
A safe bet with this machine perhaps agreeably so...
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The SCM S45N looks to have been machined to better tolerances too, I'd be interested in reading the results
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And perhaps more interestingly, but all ponderings really,
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What's interesting about that machine to me is the seemingly lack of adjustability on the lower wheel,
so there could have been some very clever way of fabricating up such a machine. (I actually got told such before, interestingly from a machine company who used to re-badge similar machines to the below one, in the past, i.e non adjustable lower wheel.
so maybe there was some truth to that spiel afterall.
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The pen will show up how accurate the wheels need to be, which would be the case for the co-planar adjustment
as with the above 0.5mm discrepancy on the upper wheel of my 24" saw, gave a variable reading of 4mm depending on the where the beam were placed...
but that's only counting for one wheel, and not both.
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All the best
Tom

[Mark Hennebury]

Trying desperately to tune up an old Meber bandsaw.513323 513324 513325

[Jerry Bruette]

Trying desperately to tune up an old Meber bandsaw.513323 513324 513325
Are you trying to balance the wheel or true up the face?

[Mark Hennebury]

Juts trueing up the face.


Are you trying to balance the wheel or true up the face?

[Brian Holcombe]

Tom, mine are machined like the second one you show. Interesting that yours have nothing machined other than the hub and the OD.

Mark, interesting setup!

Anywho, I'm guessing that in the factory there is emphasis put on getting the wheels co-planar so that the user has a range of adjustability that allows tracking the blade without going outside of the range of what's acceptable for co-planar. They seem to be giving advice knowing how difficult it would be to have the user adjust the wheels for co-planar in most cases so warning them off from touching it seems the prudent approach

Outside of that, it makes little sense that one would setup a bandsaw with no consideration for how co-planar the wheels are.

[Erik Loza]

…Anywho, I'm guessing that in the factory there is emphasis put on getting the wheels co-planar so that the user has a range of adjustability that allows tracking the blade without going outside of the range of what's acceptable for co-planar. They seem to be giving advice knowing how difficult it would be to have the user adjust the wheels for co-planar in most cases so warning them off from touching it seems the prudent approach…. Outside of that, it makes little sense that one would setup a bandsaw with no consideration for how co-planar the wheels are.

Brian, one might think, but I have my doubts and here’s why: Unlike the clock bolts, which control the camber of the wheel, there is no adjustment for the headspacing of the lower wheel in regards to the hub, shaft, frame, etc. You just install until the main bolt bottoms out…So, if someone is implying that there is a means to control the fore and aft position of the BOTH wheels, that would be incorrect. The upper wheel has fore and aft adjustment (via the manual tracking knob), but not the lower. You just install the lower wheel until the mounting bolt bottoms out. My assumption has always been that the various manufacturers engineered parts like the arbor shaft, hub, etc. in such a way that they meant for the production line to simply fit-until-tight…

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My experiences jive with that: Of the various MMs I’ve rebuilt, never needed to break out a straightedge or anything in order to get them cutting the ways I expected. Again, I am talking about CONTEMPORARY machines since there are vintage/worn-out machines being mentioned in this thread.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

They don't align anything from what I've seen.
Maybe they did, back when the design was foolproof, but I reckon they had some sorta tool for that,
i.e a mountable bearing on wheel shaft with a laser would likely be a fast way,
or something along the lines of that.

Tom

[Steve Mathews]

Nice writeup Erik on setting up a bandsaw. I've printed it our the next time I go through my saw. Can you offer some additional advice on SCMI bandsaws made prior to 2000? Mine is a 24" made in '84.

[Brian Holcombe]

Erik, that makes sense. I forget exactly how I went about this when I checked it, I may have just checked it with a spirit level to verify that they were close.

If I recall I clamped a straight edge across both wheels and sighted it from the top down to verify no twist in the assembly.

The machine tracks and cuts well, that's the ultimate verification.

Your comment on headspace makes sense, makes checking across both wheels with a straight edge not useful.

[Erik Loza]

Nice writeup Erik on setting up a bandsaw. I've printed it our the next time I go through my saw. Can you offer some additional advice on SCMI bandsaws made prior to 2000? Mine is a 24" made in '84.

Thanks, Steve. Unfortunately, I’m not really qualified to give advice on vintage Italian saws. Yours would almost certainly be a Centauro, though of much different spec than ones I have experience with. Sorry,

Erik

[Len Rosenberg]

Erik, thanks for this post, it is super helpful. I have a MiniMax S500P, and coincidentally, you were my sales rep! (For that and the FS41 Elite, both purchased in 2015). I would be most appreciative if you could provide detailed instructions on how to do steps 5, 6 and 7 on this saw. The manual is useless for that and I'm not sure what to do with the bolts under the table. Photos are helpful if possible.
Thanks and regards,
Len

[Len Rosenberg]

I figured out 6 and 7, just need your advice on adjusting the table, thanks.

Len

[andrew whicker]

Brian, one might think, but I have my doubts and here’s why: Unlike the clock bolts, which control the camber of the wheel, there is no adjustment for the headspacing of the lower wheel in regards to the hub, shaft, frame, etc. You just install until the main bolt bottoms out…So, if someone is implying that there is a means to control the fore and aft position of the BOTH wheels, that would be incorrect. The upper wheel has fore and aft adjustment (via the manual tracking knob), but not the lower. You just install the lower wheel until the mounting bolt bottoms out. My assumption has always been that the various manufacturers engineered parts like the arbor shaft, hub, etc. in such a way that they meant for the production line to simply fit-until-tight…

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My experiences jive with that: Of the various MMs I’ve rebuilt, never needed to break out a straightedge or anything in order to get them cutting the ways I expected. Again, I am talking about CONTEMPORARY machines since there are vintage/worn-out machines being mentioned in this thread.

Erik

That's interesting. My vintage (80's) has a spacer between the back of the lower wheel and the sheet metal box. So you can adjust the axial position of the lower wheel by changing the spacer width. I actually did that w/ my machine to make the wheels co-planar.

According to a laser and my tape measure, the lower and upper wheels were off 3mm. HOWEVER, I'm not convinced that the new co-planar I have (I made my own spacer and purposely did not modify the original), the blade seems to track worse axially.

As anyone that is reading my posts knows, I'm going to re-install the tires a 3rd time w/ different adhesive and slightly different methods, but I'm almost thinking that making the wheels "perfectly" co planar (< 1 mm) is not correct.

I can see how someone could possibly get into trouble by adjusting the lower wheels X and Y bolts, but you could always mark them before adjustment so that you can bring everything back to factory. However, I'm not convinced I understand what is important and what isn't important so far on these machines. I think there is a lot of discussion of: these are simple machines, etc.

I didn't think I had to be super careful on the tire side of the install, but I was wrong. I was under the impression I had to be really careful w/ co-planar, etc (i.e. machine setup), but I think I may have it backwards.

Anyway, I have time today / this weekend after I get an airbnb ready for guests to mess around with it some more. Hopefully I can share some good news.

[Erik Loza]

I figured out 6 and 7, just need your advice on adjusting the table, thanks.

Len

Hi, Len! Yes, I do remember you. I’m out of the house today but let me throw up some pics of the process tomorrow (Sunday) morning.

Erik

[andrew whicker]

In fact, I think as far as co planar is concerned, I would do the following:

1) Ensure the tires are correctly installed and trued (trued on the machine IMO).

2) install blade and track it to where you want it on the top wheel (teeth hanging off in my case)

3) take the lower cover off and see where the blade is running axially.

When I get to #3 after making the machine co planar, I see about 3mm of extra blade overhang... which tells me the factory knows something I don't. I.e. the lower wheel has to stick out further towards the user than the upper wheel.

I've tested my laser level a few different times and according to my various levels, it seems to be pretty darn level. So I'm going to assume that my laser is vertical. I did my co planar measurements w/ the blade on, tracked and tensioned for what it is worth. Obviously you can tilt the upper wheel to make it the same angle as the bottom. So that measurement is a bit silly unloaded. I mainly concerned myself with using the 0 deg and 180 deg points on the rim of each wheel against my laser. I took those numbers from the bottom wheel and made sure they matched the top wheel. This I assume you can do either loaded or unloaded. The lower wheel shouldn't move whether loaded or not so the 90 deg and 270 deg number should match each other as close as possible with your reference line. Once the machine is loaded you can measure the top wheel 90 deg and 180 deg and compare to the lower.

Sorry, this probably sounds like an expert giving instructions. Not meant to be that way. I'm just letting you know what I did. So far, I'm obviously missing something. But the shafts are tight to the new bearings so I don't think I have a terrible machine per se. I think I have a machine that no one cared about, but I do think I'm getting closer to making it work. I only feel like paying someone to drop into the Mariana Trench when I'm actually working on it, but once I'm away from it and have time to calm down I'm able to think more rationally!

I will say one thing: no one that sells tires has yet impressed me. They all give one word answers and / or have bad websites with lousy descriptions, etc. For as much holy praise as my machine gets, it sure doesn't seem to gain a good tire vending apparatus.

[Len Rosenberg]

Hi, Len! Yes, I do remember you. I’m out of the house today but let me throw up some pics of the process tomorrow (Sunday) morning.

Erik
Great, thanks!

[Len Rosenberg]

Hi Erik, I figured it out. Was looking at the front of the table instead of the rear. Easy adjustment, first loosen the table tilt clamp, tilt the table until the blade is square with it, tighten the tilt clamp, and adjust the support screw at the rear of the table until it touches the bottom of the table to prevent any travel or drift if the tilt clamp loosens up. (Posted this for others who might be interested).

[STUART Robertson]

Excellent helpful thread for me.
Erik in particular.