Domino, Domino, everywhere a Domino

[jack duren]

A $1500 dollar tool isn’t a future order anymore. Every hobby woodworker that can afford it, is buying them up. I think the future high end will be be the Domino affect…

[mike stenson]

Ok?


must be a rant in here somewhere.

[jack duren]

Kinda like pocket holes in high end.

[mike stenson]

How does how a loose tenon was made have anything to do with quality? Oh yea, it doesn't.

[Ted Baxter]

I don't understand:confused:

[Rich Engelhardt]

It shouldn't be all that long until Harbor Freight comes out with one.
Around this time next year?

[jack duren]

Two glue joints is never as good as one..

[Richard Coers]

Kinda like pocket holes in high end.
Floating tenons are miles away from a short screw driven at an angle.

[jack duren]

Wouldn’t surprise me..

[andrew whicker]

I look forward to some day having a mortise and tenon setup (I'd really like one of those Japanese machines with an open saw blade, but they don't seem to exist in the NA market).

[Richard Coers]

It shouldn't be all that long until Harbor Freight comes out with one.
Around this time next year?
Making a spinning cutter that oscillates is not a cheap tool. The domino came out in 2007. Why would China wait 17 years if they were going to make one?

[jack duren]

New product most are in favor of like pocket screws

[jack duren]

They make Jorgensen gear clamps too, but that didn’t last. Sure a lawyer had something to do with it.

[mike stenson]

I don't understand:confused:

I don't either, and I'm predominantly a hand-tool guy.


in the 17ish years of these things being available, lots of high-end work has been done with them... I am sure. Since well, really small shops are the target audience for these tools anyway.

[Edward Weber]

Not entirely sure the point of this post.

There are different ways to attach things, all at different price points.
The final product is what counts, the combination of aesthetics and longevit yhave the final say, regardless of construction method.

[Jimmy Harris]

Yeah, they're definitely popular right now. It's hard to start a woodworking YouTube channel without one.

But you don't have to buy and use one if you don't want to. I have a biscuit joiner that hasn't seen the light of day in at least 15 years. I also have some doweling jigs that I hate to use. So I would have no use for one. But if someone else wants to buy and use one, it doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm sure lots of people will say they're indispensable to their workflow. And that's a perfectly valid point of view.

[jack duren]

Easy point. If you like fast, it’s the way to go,,

[Patrick Varley]

The other thing I think happens is that said hobbyists latch onto it because of how prevalent it is in those channels/videos. I wonder if these hobbyists with $1500 to burn would be better off with a Pantorouter. Then you can get more than just floating M/T.

[jack duren]

When I worked at the furniture company they bought two to speed things up. I didn’t care as I always say it’s just a wide dowel..

[mike stenson]

Dowels have always been narrow tenons.


I guess jack's being elitist today.


btw, ALL powered machines exist ONLY to speed things up. No one wants to pay for handwork.

[Myles Moran]

If I had to pay myself an hourly wage in my shop I'd have bought one years ago. Otherwise my plunge router gets me there, just a bit slower though. Or my dowel jig.

[Cameron Wood]

Making a spinning cutter that oscillates is not a cheap tool. The domino came out in 2007. Why would China wait 17 years if they were going to make one?

Patent protections?

[jack duren]

I still believe in M&T for high end..I have considered one for my small shop cause I’ve become lazy:rolleyes:

[andrew whicker]

Bringing a tool to the piece vs the other way around is big positive for a lot of methods. This is one of those methods in my opinion. And it's nice when you're clamping a big table top together and don't have a wide belt sander / want to keep as much thickness as possible after sanding. I don't think you can do that with a panto-router??

I use them a lot. I don't think they are as "wow" as they are marketed, but they are pretty darn handy and fast. There are things that don't need joinery other than butt + tenon. I will say that if there is something out there does a dowel in the same tool like body for half the price or less, that would be pretty awesome. I already have the domino, so I'll stick with what I got, but a simple dowel would work for me. I never use them for 100% strength reasons and more for alignment w/ extra strength as an added bonus.

I've joined a lot of plywood w/ dominoes. Just did that on my assembly table to make it bigger than a 4x8 top in fact. Worked great.

The price tag is high. I got mine back when I was a "wealthy" engineer : ) Now I wonder what it's like to be able to afford (almost) whatever you want! lol.


I'll also say that many sing the praises for the Lamello joiner which is kinda / sorta the same thing but from a company that has wider acceptance as a "whatever they make is amazing", so I'm not sure that some of the hate isn't just Festool hate. And trust me, I'm one to join the Festool hate club when discussing some of their design choices. But the domino machine seems dialed in to me.

[jack duren]

I’m surprised there aren’t more brands. How long can Festool stop other manufactures from,making it?

I’ve seen the Domino fail, so I’m not 100% behind it

[mike stenson]

I’m surprised there aren’t more brands. How long can Festool stop other manufactures from,making it?


Patents last 20 years in the US.

[Andrew Hughes]

If they sold a domino knock off at harbor freight would you buy it?
I’m thinking you would
I sometimes use my domino to make a mortise then cut the integral tenon of the make part.
It sure beats a router

[Cameron Wood]

I've recently found it handy to make screw slots to allow for wood movement. Drill the rest of the way into a back up scrap as needed.

[jack duren]

I’ve considered selling a few things to buy one…

[Patrick Varley]

If they sold a domino knock off at harbor freight would you buy it?
I’m thinking you would
I sometimes use my domino to make a mortise then cut the integral tenon of the make part.
It sure beats a router

I wouldn't. But only because I doubt they could hit the tolerances required to make it operate as effectively as you hope (at the bargain price point). That's the thing about the Domino. It does feel like a "precision" tool because there isn't really a middle ground. If it's a bit off, you might as well not use it.

It's the same reason why there's a Mafell doweler that costs $1500, and the Grizzly/Triton dowelers that look similar but cost $250 get crappy reviews.

[George Yetka]

When it comes to money, if the domino was $15,000 and it saved 10 minutes a day it would be worth it if it would be used everyday. Tools are cheap and labor is expensive unless you work for yourself. At the labor rate of union guys around here it would take 2 years to pay it off, assuming it lasted longer than that Id make money.

from a business perspective we don't want to send out tools unless they increase productivity. We are pipefitters so the domino doesnt apply to me but newer propress tools are much faster than older ones so replacing the $4,000 tool saves me money when they are crimping all day or Mig automated roller stands can triple a welders output.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Dominos are right there with Forrest blades. Over rated and OVER PRICED! Do some You Tube watching, and you will see a couple ideas to replace Domino's, based upon the Makita cordless trim router.! In the process of building a hand held slot mortiser. Mine will use a $25 corded trim router from TEMU. Have all the parts on hand, just need to get well so I can do something in the shop. Now Amazon offers same router as TEMU, with some 1/4" bits for $25. Look at Izzy Swan's video on building a slot mortiser, instead of buying a $1500 Domino. There is a Chinese slot mortiser, that uses trim router to cut slots. Costs without router motor is right at $200.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have an XL with all the bangles. Meh.....

I still do mostly M&T. I mostly use the domino for cabinet to cabinet locators. Have made a couple of screen doors using the biggest dominoes and they are holding up well. Best use is Azek connectors, made some dominoes out of Azek, makes alignment easy. I have close to $3K in the setup and am sure it has not paid for itself yet.

[mike stenson]

Dominos are right there with Forrest blades. Over rated and OVER PRICED! Do some You Tube watching, and you will see a couple ideas to replace Domino's, based upon the Makita cordless trim router.! In the process of building a hand held slot mortiser. Mine will use a $25 corded trim router from TEMU. Have all the parts on hand, just need to get well so I can do something in the shop. Now Amazon offers same router as TEMU, with some 1/4" bits for $25. Look at Izzy Swan's video on building a slot mortiser, instead of buying a $1500 Domino. There is a Chinese slot mortiser, that uses trim router to cut slots. Costs without router motor is right at $200.

How does that save time? I can cut mortises with any router, or any chisel really.

These are production devices.

[Edward Weber]

I'll be the Jerk.
For many, and yes I'm looking at you, YT content creators. It and easy way to connect wood without knowing anything about joinery.
It's the "makers generation" equivalent of construction paper and paste.
You don't need to know anything, just cut and glue.

They are a great tool, don't get me wrong but many buy them without knowing there actually other ways to connect wood.

[Michael Burnside]

Dominos are right there with Forrest blades. Over rated and OVER PRICED! Do some You Tube watching, and you will see a couple ideas to replace Domino's, based upon the Makita cordless trim router.! In the process of building a hand held slot mortiser. Mine will use a $25 corded trim router from TEMU. Have all the parts on hand, just need to get well so I can do something in the shop. Now Amazon offers same router as TEMU, with some 1/4" bits for $25. Look at Izzy Swan's video on building a slot mortiser, instead of buying a $1500 Domino. There is a Chinese slot mortiser, that uses trim router to cut slots. Costs without router motor is right at $200.

In a production shop, labor is likely the most costly item, certainly affecting the bottom line and final cost in a significant way. Here, "over priced" has little to do with the actual tool in question.

As a serious hobbyist I make zero apologies for buying whatever tool I want and I don't need to justify it to anyone on this forum. While I respect your approach to accomplish the same thing, I similarly respectfully disagree with your assessment of "over rated and over priced".

[mike stenson]

I'll be the Jerk.
For many, and yes I'm looking at you, YT content creators. It and easy way to connect wood without knowing anything about joinery.
It's the "makers generation" equivalent of construction paper and paste.
You don't need to know anything, just cut and glue.

They are a great tool, don't get me wrong but many buy them without knowing there actually other ways to connect wood.

I can, honestly, say the same about power tools in general. Tools do not grant skills or knowledge.

Actually, this is true of all automation. The more automated something is, the faster it can break things.

[Jim Becker]

I have to say that I'm with Michael. ^^

I bought the DF700 for a specific project a few years ago. It did what was needed, fast, easy and accurate and became a staple for other projects after that. I recently picked up a (so very slightly) used DF500 to make using the smaller tenon stock easer. If I could only have one Festool produced tool...one of the Domino machines would be it. As primarily a hobbyist woodworker (who has done some commission work for sure) I worry less about the initial cost of the tools I choose; rather, I shoot for things that do what they say they will do and do it for decades.

And it's nice to have choices...this joinery method clearly isn't for everyone just like every other possibility. We pick and choose what we like and what functions for how we want to work.

And yea, I use pocket screws too. :)

[Dan Barber]

I agree with Michael and Jim,
It's a tool just like any other, it has it use and one needs to understand when to use and when not. I know of several folks that lamented the purchase and then once they had it, they never look back. I think it's like many things in life; there is buyer remorse when it's expensive and it does not work and there's "buy once, cry once" when it expensive and does exactly what it claims to do. Domino to me falls in the later category.

And I might use a pocket screw or two as well :)
Dan

[Ola Carmonius]

The other thing I think happens is that said hobbyists latch onto it because of how prevalent it is in those channels/videos. I wonder if these hobbyists with $1500 to burn would be better off with a Pantorouter. Then you can get more than just floating M/T.

The pantorouter can sure to more things but when it comes to joining sheet goods and ease of use and short set up times the domino is a totally different beast.

Btw, I own a domino and at the moment building a writing desk with traditional mortice and tenons. Domino I mainly use for sheet good constructions and smaller things like frames.

[jack duren]

A Domino isn't a Forrest blade comparison. You can buy many CNC blades on the market. Not much comparison to the Domino.

[mike stenson]

I have a DF500 as well. I'll be honest, I don't use it often as I prefer actually cutting integral tenons (and if there are only a few mortises, I prefer chopping those). The last time I used it was making drawer boxes. For which, it was blindingly quick, but they're also shop cabs... so, I just need quick and strong.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-746Nffc/0/31757b48/L/i-746Nffc-L.jpg

[jack duren]

Problem is the price of the Domino. If you can get payed for it, it’s okay, if now it’s kinda a waste..

[mike stenson]

Problem is the price of the Domino. If you can get payed for it, it’s okay, if now it’s kinda a waste..


For what it's worth. The build quality is great. They do exactly what they claim to do, and they're cheaper than a Mafell doweler.

[Edward Weber]

I'm one of those strange people who generally buys tools only when they're needed :rolleyes:
If I need one, I'll certainly buy one but I currently don't have a need.
I have a biscuit joiner for alignment/light duty tasks and a mortising machine for everything else.
When the attributes of a Domino are the only solution, I'll have one

[Cameron Wood]

I bit the bullet and got one a while back. Don't use it a ton but really good for some things.

Like dowels or other loose tenons, layout is simplified, and less material is used since no length is needed for tenons.

I worry about the durability of the machine, and about catching the cord and sending it on a fatal plunge to the floor.

It's straightforward to make tenons of matching wood- a good idea for outdoor items.

I disagree that it's too complex for knockoff manufacturing- roto hammers have a similar mechanism, & they are common.

[mike stenson]

I disagree that it's too complex for knockoff manufacturing- roto hammers have a similar mechanism, & they are common.

I agree with this. It was too complex for a company that doesn't invest in R&D to bring to market. Now it's just protected by patent.

Mine's been bounced off concrete more than a few times btw.

[Cameron Wood]

I agree with this. It was too complex for a company that doesn't invest in R&D to bring to market. Now it's just protected by patent.

Mine's been bounced off concrete more than a few times btw.



Good to know, thanks.

[Philip Glover]

If one has a lot of face frames to make a Domino seems ideal.
I have a Hoffman doweler mostly for face frames and other situations which need accurate alignment and the Domino does the same thing as I see it.
It is not going to replace tradition M & T's. That said, I would consider a used one someday when current owners decide to sell.

Phil

[Clint Baxter]

I have, and use, mortise chisels, a hollow chisel mortiser, a Leigh FMT jig, and both sizes of the Domino. Each of them is used when it is the best tool for the job. A certain amount of work I do is for income, but as I continue to age, has been turning into more of the hobbiest type.

I tend to favor the FMT for face frames and the D500 for sheet goods. As stated here earlier, the D500 really shines in that role.

Clint

[Rich Engelhardt]

Making a spinning cutter that oscillates is not a cheap tool. The domino came out in 2007. Why would China wait 17 years if they were going to make one?As mentioned already - patents.
The Domino & for that matter, the SawStop patents are running out real soon.
I saw mention of 2024 for the Domino and 2021 for the SawStop.

Remember back when Festool had a lock on track saws? Now everybody has one.
Or, the Fein multi tool? Remember the commercials selling those for >$700? Then Harbor Freight came out with one for under $20.

As far as the proliferation of them on YouTube goes, Dominos are just one of the things a lot of people with a YouTube channel spring for.

[Jack Frederick]

I bought a 500 last month. It was a lift. Over my working career I spent much more freely and accumulated as lot of gear for shop, home and, what? Madness? I sold a couple rifles which I no longer need/want and pulled the trigger on the Domino which so far I have used extensively. I’m just getting my hand with it. Festool products are expensive. No doubt about that, but every one (sander, 24, 55, 1400, 500) I’ve purchased has been of excellent quality. The 55 and Dust x-tractor I’ve had over 20 yrs and have used extensively with no issues. Having the parf guide, Once the jointer/planer are done things move to the MFT and I don’t have to be moving the material as much. The 500 suits the way I work. I’m with Michael and Jim on this one

[Jim Dwight]

I am a hobbiest woodworker with a DF700 and cutters from 5mm to 14mm. You have to use an adapter for the little ones but they work fine in the DF700. The domino is my only Festool power tool. I think Festools are nice and seem well made but I also think they are overpriced. I have made mortises with my plunge router and it worked well but is slow and loud. I next tried a hollow chisel mortiser and it worked but the mortises were not as nice, but fully functional, and it took up more space than I wanted to give it in my little 14x24 shop garage. The domino is fast and takes up very little space. I have not purchased even one domino tenon nor have I purchased any Festool cutters for the machine. CMT and Amana make cutters, I have some of both. They work fine but Amana may be better. I've had 14mm CMT chip and fail. I make my own tenons from scrap. I keep sticks around of the stock sizes but I also make a lot of larger, wider, tenons when that is what the project calls for.

I think domino joints get a worse than deserved reputation because it is so easy to just use the pre-made tenons even when that is not the right size for the project you are making. If you resist that and use an appropriately sized joint it will be just as strong as an integral tenon. Joints do not fail at the glue when properly made and assembled. It is a little more work to glue up both sides but only a little. It is a WHOLE lot less work to make a loose tenon than to cut a integral tenon. When I need a wider mortise I just make overlapping plunges with the tool. It does this fine, the only negative is the dust does not come out as well.

Recently I've been using my DF700 to inlet the action for gunstocks. It is just a hand held mortising tool. Works great to make all kinds of mortises. I wish there was a version with U. S. measurements and cutters but I can work with silly metric markings when I have to.

[Jared Sankovich]

It's a fast and relatively easy way to make a mortise, and is cheaper than a maka. Cost wise its about the same as a monthly payment on a new truck.

[Randy Heinemann]

Maybe the reason the Domino is so popular is because it's a unique solution that produces a quality joint. Is it a necessary tool? Not at all. However, it is enjoyable and easy to use, while allowing the user to push the envelope creatively in some situations where another tool wouldn't. Can you do without it? Absolutely! The same is true for some other tools that are not needed but make woodworking more enjoyable.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a DF500, which I purchased about 5 years ago when re-building a kitchen full of frame-and-panel frames. It received little use after this as I am a traditionalist at heart, and prefer "proper" M&T joinery. Then I needed to build a pair of beds, and it dawned on me that my mindset on the Domino needed to shift away from viewing it as a fixed set of sizes machine for loose tenon joinery. Not only can it make any size of loose tenon joinery, it acts as a movable morticing machine.

Prior to the Domino, my main method of making mortices was a morticing chisel or a router. The DF500 is nearly perfect in sizing for furniture, with 6mm, 8mm and 10mm wide bits. This covers all one needs. The perceived limitation had been the width of the fixed mortices covered on the machine. But there is a simple way around this.

For the beds I made a 10mm template to position the start and end points of a wide mortice ...

https://i.postimg.cc/GppPy409/2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Then it is easy to make ..

https://i.postimg.cc/bwgHrQBK/3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Make your own loose tenons ...

https://i.postimg.cc/JzM5RTPN/4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/fLRfMckh/15.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I did the same for a bedhead with a multitude of 8mm thick slats slats ...

https://i.postimg.cc/5NrPnp71/26.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Use a hollow mortice chisel to square the ends ...

https://i.postimg.cc/ht72wx6m/28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/LstN4SH6/29.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/mk5Sp2SV/34.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Last comment is to view the Domino and Biscuit machines serving different purposes and not used interchangeably. The Domino is, as shown, a morticer. The Biscuit cutter makes splines. Use biscuits to align boards for panels and mitres.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Heinemann]

Why does the reason have to be anything other than the Domino is simply a great tool. It's not a necessity, but it sure is a great tool for joinery; fast, easy to setup, solid joints, and flexible. It encourages creativity I think. It's expensive and, if I didn't have it, I'd cut mortise and tenon joints the old way, but it would take longer, the joint wouldn't be any more solid, and I would have less time to do other projects. So, for me, it really is as simple as it's a great tool that produces greate results (and I do know how to cut regular mortise and tenon joints and did that for years before I got the Domino.)

[Michael Burnside]

Yea, the Domino is over-priced for what it is!!! Who needs it? I can do the same thing for twice the cost and nearly as quick!

<ps if you don't see this as tongue-and-cheek, perhaps the next tool you should buy is a sense of humor instead of a Domino>

https://i.postimg.cc/7PMjqGbm/Sad-Domino1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/jdM9JpHf/Sad-Domino2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/X7jmqjC3/Sad-Domino3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/597Q2Ffb/Sad-Domino4.jpg

[Jim Becker]

^^ That right there is funny!! ROFLOL

[Mike Cutler]

Yes, it was. ;)

[Dan Barber]

I just now saw the sad face on the Domino :D

[Norman Pirollo]

Then there is this old school "horizontal mortiser" option. In my furniture maker schooling, this is what we often used for loose tenon joinery or to create mortises for integral tenons. I don't own a Domino as I find it very expensive. All kitted out here in Canada, a Domino is over 2K with taxes. Cannot justify the expense although I do see the merits others have been discussing in this thread. I have a couple of alternatives to the Domino and this one came to me at very little expense (free). Some rust removal, restoring, fitting a router, and added workholding to it and I am happy with the results. I do need to bring the work to the machine, unlike a Domino. I work with predominantly smaller furniture pieces, so the components are smaller.

https://youtu.be/T8Atx1LHAr4

[mike stenson]

Horizontal mortisers are about twice as expensive as a domino.
We can't compare used tool prices to new tool prices. If you got a deal, that's awesome, but it's not a fair comparison.

I've never paid list for a festool product, going all the way back the atf55 I bought first, and still own. But I don't use those prices as a comparison, either.

[Stan Calow]

No doubt it's a useful and quality tool. I think a hobbyist should look at buying one, and maybe any expensive tool, on a $ per project basis. I'd consider how many future projects I might use it on and decide if the cost is worth it. At my stage in life, again as a hobbyist, I might have ten or less projects involving M/T left to do. Not worth a $1500 investment, even if my widow ends up selling it for $50 at my estate sale :eek:. Now a HF version that is $200 or so might be of interest.

Beadlock is an option for the poor man. And there are router jigs for horizontal mortising.

[Edward Weber]

I have a question for those who say it spurs creativity, how exactly?
I seriously don't understand

Having the ability of putting a loose tenon join virtually anywhere can be great but it's also not always the right thing to do. You still need to understand wood and grain orientation, etc, at least at a basic level.

[Robert Mayer]

If you dont like the domino, dont buy one. Keep doing your joinery however you wish. This argument has been around since the domino launched years ago. The only people complaining about the domino are those who cant afford it and secretly want one.

[Edward Weber]

If you dont like the domino, dont buy one. Keep doing your joinery however you wish. This argument has been around since the domino launched years ago. The only people complaining about the domino are those who cant afford it and secretly want one.

Ignoring the snarky response;
I never said I didn't like them, I think they're a great tool but too many start giving the tool attributes that I think are unrealistic.

[jack duren]

“If you dont like the domino, dont buy one. Keep doing your joinery however you wish. This argument has been around since the domino launched years ago. The only people complaining about the domino are those who cant afford it and secretly want one.”


yes and no…

[mike stenson]

“If you dont like the domino, dont buy one. Keep doing your joinery however you wish. This argument has been around since the domino launched years ago. The only people complaining about the domino are those who cant afford it and secretly want one.”


yes and no…

yet it seems you started this thread to complain about the price.

[jack duren]

I didn’t start the thread to complain about the price..

[Jim Reffner]

Good one Michael. Maybe 2 tears for those that never stop crying?

[Edwin Santos]

I have a question for those who say it spurs creativity, how exactly?
I seriously don't understand

Having the ability of putting a loose tenon join virtually anywhere can be great but it's also not always the right thing to do. You still need to understand wood and grain orientation, etc, at least at a basic level.

Hello Edward,
I don't know if this is a good example but here goes - A friend of mine is an excellent craftsman designer. Most of his work involves exposed joinery.
He has a chair line where the back post is joined to the crest rail with a through tenon that is flushed and exposed on the side of the back post. The way he fabricates this joint is to cut the pieces to size and precise angle, then clamp them together (imagine the crest rail clamped between the back posts a/k/a back legs) then he cuts the mortise through both pieces with the Domino to form the joint. The result is a nicely centered mortise which will receive a through tenon that he mills from solid stock.
I thought it was a creative solution and the finished chair is beautiful. He's a guy that's in business so he needs to find ways to do things efficiently and get first rate product out the door.

The alternative would be to cut the tenons on the end of the curved crest rail and precisely mortise the back posts to receive them, which I think is much more time consuming and complicated.

I hate to use the word "better". This is just one example of where the Domino offered a creative solution.

In my shop I have cut mortises and tenons by hand, used a plunge router with a jig, and recently began using the PantoRouter. This particular joint example would have been much more difficult with these methods. In fact, it might be why I rarely see chairs made with through tenons for that particular crest rail joint.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I don't own one, and I'm not altogether sure what they do which is different that a mortise and tenon, biscuit joiner or dowel joint. I've lived without one for decades now, and unless there is a project in which a Domino is a must have, I will use work arounds.

I mainly use M&T joinery and using a mortiser and table saw can hack one out in a few minutes. A dowel jig (I have several) is also a common go to tool. Finally, I have owned a biscuit joiner for decades, and have used for plywood glueups but honestly, I find it is hard to align the stock if there is a slight error, so a firm hand or a clamp works best. I think biscuit joinery is pretty much worthless.

[Mike Henderson]

Even when I do traditional tenon joinery, I usually use the Domino to make the mortise.

I use the Domino on almost all of my projects - not all, but most.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

A creative use of a gizmo is Joe. Hes used a Hoffman dovetail machine in mitred mouldings on doors. There are approaches to make mitres a bit better. Joes use of the Hoffman is excellent as now pulling the mitre together tight under pre load for its life. Hes not finding a time saving way in that case hes adding time using a gizmo to make a certain joint even better. Ill call that creative and better.

Dont have a domino and not cause of cost if I make a beaded face frame I make it mortise and tennon, not domino and more so not pocket hole. I don't care if it takes longer its how it was done and I care more about that. I have to learn to be faster and more efficient and do it how I want.

[Edward Weber]

Hello Edward,
I don't know if this is a good example but here goes - A friend of mine is an excellent craftsman designer. Most of his work involves exposed joinery.
He has a chair line where the back post is joined to the crest rail with a through tenon that is flushed and exposed on the side of the back post. The way he fabricates this joint is to cut the pieces to size and precise angle, then clamp them together (imagine the crest rail clamped between the back posts a/k/a back legs) then he cuts the mortise through both pieces with the Domino to form the joint. The result is a nicely centered mortise which will receive a through tenon that he mills from solid stock.
I thought it was a creative solution and the finished chair is beautiful. He's a guy that's in business so he needs to find ways to do things efficiently and get first rate product out the door.

The alternative would be to cut the tenons on the end of the curved crest rail and precisely mortise the back posts to receive them, which I think is much more time consuming and complicated.

I hate to use the word "better". This is just one example of where the Domino offered a creative solution.

In my shop I have cut mortises and tenons by hand, used a plunge router with a jig, and recently began using the PantoRouter. This particular joint example would have been much more difficult with these methods. In fact, it might be why I rarely see chairs made with through tenons for that particular crest rail joint.

Thank you very much

[Edward Weber]

A creative use of a gizmo is Joe. Hes used a Hoffman dovetail machine in mitred mouldings on doors. There are approaches to make mitres a bit better. Joes use of the Hoffman is excellent as now pulling the mitre together tight under pre load for its life. Hes not finding a time saving way in that case hes adding time using a gizmo to make a certain joint even better. Ill call that creative and better.

Dont have a domino and not cause of cost if I make a beaded face frame I make it mortise and tennon, not domino and more so not pocket hole. I don't care if it takes longer its how it was done and I care more about that. I have to learn to be faster and more efficient and do it how I want.

Thank you as well Warren

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have a Powermatic hollow chisel mortiser, a Domino 500 and a Domino 700. The mortiser is very lonely. Loose tenons are exceptionally strong. I worked in a shop making doors, and we had a stationary loose tenon cutter. It was huge. It had air powered hold-downs. I now have my own shop and am in the middle of making 26 doors for a hotel. We are using the Domino 700 and it’s much easier than when I was using the stationary machine.

Im not a Festool fan, but they have the patent, so here I am.

[Warren Lake]

shops ran large tennon heads and cope and stick and tennon in one pass. They wouldnt waste time on a domino and loose tennons.

[Warren Lake]

I think the last door only shop I was in ran a CNC that did all the machining and likely have a photo in another computer. Know I saw one company at one of the shows and talking to the owner he told me he had a 500k tennon machine. I think there were cross grain grooves cut in the tennons to hold glue even better. .

[Jon Grider]

I like mine and use it frequently. I don't take offence if anyone else doesn't like them though. My HCM and TS tenoning jig don't get used nearly as much as they used to. For me it's about time. If it's about hand sawing and chisel work for others go for it, and you can have a bit of deserved smugness that your work takes more skill. That's OK. For me I just can't use 10 to 15 minutes on a hand cut rail and stile joint.

[Kevin Jenness]

As someone who has made a living building custom cabinets, millwork and furniture I just don't see why Domino joiners should be controversial. I have a 500 and have used the 700 in employment, and have a Steton slot mortiser and a small hollow chisel machine. There are many ways to skin cats. I believe in using the simplest and most efficient joinery to get the job done well with the equipment at hand. There's no question in my mind that it's easier to make a clean butt joint with a spline tenon than an integral m&t joint with 4 shoulders all lining up perfectly - not that isn't the right joint to use in some situations - and I don't believe there is a significant difference in strength in most situatioins.

I have built architectural doors for nearly 40 years using spline tenons and have not yet seen a joint fail. Spline tenons work well in combination with cope and stick cutters on smaller shapers. If you are specializing in door work you will probably want to invest in heavier tenoning equipment and an oscillating mortiser or a heavy hollow chisel mortiser. I'll never get rid of my stationary mortiser as it is so versatile for frame work, allowing for boring and mortising with larger bits, but for a small shop doing a variety of work a Domino 700 and a medium duty shaper can manage pretty much any door work at a reasonable cost.

What makes the Domino design worthwhile? For one thing, it's very useful for cabinet work. It can plunge into the face of a wide panel to make tee joints as well as corner joints, and like a Lamello the standard, well-fitted splines available save considerable time over making your own, yet it is not limited to the standard sizes- you can cut overlapping mortises and make your own splines to fit the project requirements. The mortises are very accurate and consistent and symmetrical around the machine's center marks. It is easy to bring the Domino to large pieces that are too heavy or unwieldy for some medium duty stationary machines. I still use a biscuit joiner a lot, but if I had to choose only one slot cutter I could get by pretty well with a large Domino machine.

There are situations where it doesn't work so well, for instance narrow section frame work like windows or chairs where the tenons need to be full width of the rail or nearly so, or through tenon joints where the design calls for a square-ended slot. For most work though, unless you insist on handwork or traditional integral tenons the Domino machines are a good value for producing strong accurate joints for both frame and carcass work.

[Warren Lake]

sure ill get one one day if I need one or see a use for it.

I likely got the lamello over 40 years ago then a second one along the way. I worked for a crazy austrian guy and he was the first shop where I ever saw one. One man in a 12,000 foot shop that could not keep employees for more than 2 -3 weeks. I lasted 9 months putting up with his crap hoping to learn more till we had a fight over moose hunting. Him all serious about how difficult it was and me why the moose doesnt have a gun. Wrong answer. I think I lasted a few weeks more after that not sure we even spoke. What a character, real live master not self appointed title like some. Same time he was the biggest fraud work wise. Even scammed an aspect of work for an ex president. Good I got out of there he threw knives at least twice and remember finding one in the spray booth. He even knew and insulted the best cabinetmaker I ever met and when I told him he turned red and laughed and said yeah but not to my face.

Oh yeah domino. Never know always depends on the work. Worst case was buying a machine half way through a job to complete it and then not using it again so far.

[Larry Edgerton]

Interesting discussion. I guess because I have a morticing machine and the ability to make long tenons on the shaper I never really looked at the Domino as anything other than a solution for odd situations. I am going to try some of the uses I have seen in here as I am getting old and taking a lightweight machine to a heavy part is more appealing that manhandling heavy stock. I like Derick's use for larger tenons except I would probably split them in two with a bridge in the middle. That little locator jig is cool.

I bought it for narrow styles and rails but it was not as accurate as I had hoped so went back to the shaper/morticer and it has been mostly gathering dust. I will have to try to use it more.

[jack duren]

It has its positives and its negatives..

[Keith Hankins]

I had one when it first came out. Nice, but not practical in smaller areas. Sold it for what i paid for it and bought floor model M&T

[mike johnston]

It’s not necessarily about the domino. It’s about how many green boxes you have in the back ground of your YouTube videos

please hit the like button and subscribe

[Bryan Hall]

It’s not necessarily about the domino. It’s about how many green boxes you have in the back ground of your YouTube videos

please hit the like button and subscribe

Call me crazy but I hate those green boxes :D my tools go in drawers or on shelves, those boxes are a nightmare for me.

I find I generally use a biscuit joiner or my lamello joiner far more than the domino. I'm sure it all relates to what type of work you are doing.

[Warren Lake]

some people sing about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiDcPUOD-vY

[Justin Rapp]

Problem is the price of the Domino. If you can get payed for it, it’s okay, if now it’s kinda a waste..

Why does it always have to do with money? From a production standpoint where labor costs are involved, if it makes sense for the business owner, fine. However, from a hobbyist standpoint, if you have the means and enjoy using the tool, regardless if it's or a Festool Domino or a $550 hand plane from Lie Nielsen vs a home-made jig and 69 ryobi router or a used rusty no-name hand plane picked up at a garage sale, if you enjoy using it, go for it.

[jack duren]

Why does it always have to do with money? From a production standpoint where labor costs are involved, if it makes sense for the business owner, fine. However, from a hobbyist standpoint, if you have the means and enjoy using the tool, regardless if it's or a Festool Domino or a $550 hand plane from Lie Nielsen vs a home-made jig and 69 ryobi router or a used rusty no-name hand plane picked up at a garage sale, if you enjoy using it, go for it.

We used it in business because it was faster. As a matter of fact, they bought me two of them, This way a helper could plunge parts and I could plunge parts.

[Justin Rapp]

We used it in business because it was faster. As a matter of fact, they bought me two of them, This way a helper could plunge parts and I could plunge parts.


Well, if it saves time, it pays for itself very quickly. Look at the plumbing industry. Years ago, water lines were run in threaded pipe and it took for ever to plumb new builds. So copper came into the picture and sweating fittings instead of threading pipe ends was much faster. And there was some attempts at fittings pre-loaded with solder, crip connectors and shark bite. Now, pex is becoming the standard as running it is very efficient labor wise and cost-effective material as well.

The evolution of ways of working, tools, automation, etc is all driven by efficiency and cost, however in the hobby world, it's driven by enjoyment!!!

[jack duren]

I had no choice but to go along with the Domino.Personally, If I want a high end piece, I want M&T, not Domino…

Now ai have done both M&T and Domino. I have seen a Domino fail, but haven’t witnesses a M&T fail. Go figure…

[mike stenson]

I had no choice but to go along with the Domino.Personally, If I want a high end piece, I want M&T, not Domino…

Now ai have done both M&T and Domino. I have seen a Domino fail, but haven’t witnesses a M&T fail. Go figure…

Really Jack, there is not one iota of difference. It's simply a loose tenon. We've made those for a very, very long time. I've seen poorly done integral tenons fail, I've seen poorly done loose tenons fail.

Poor joints are poor joints.


I'll admit, I'm really not looking forward to making this 3/4"x 11 1/2" through tenon....

[jack duren]

Really Jack, there is not one iota of difference. It's simply a loose tenon. We've made those for a very, very long time. I've seen poorly done integral tenons fail, I've seen poorly done loose tenons fail.

Poor joints are poor joints.


I'll admit, I'm really not looking forward to making this 3/4"x 11 1/2" through tenon....


You can explain there’s no difference on the 700 barstools that failed at Chili’s restaurants

So really…

I can complain when I had to set up shapers to correct problems from the Domino..


I know it’s tough to swallow that that kinda money still isn’t a perfect tool…

[mike stenson]

Are you suggesting that the tool should replace the user? ;)

It's a loose tenon (prove me wrong). If it's poorly fitted, undersized, or otherwise poorly executed. That's a user issue.

[Michael Burnside]

Are you suggesting that the tool should replace the user? ;)

It's a loose tenon (prove me wrong). If it's poorly fitted, undersized, or otherwise poorly executed. That's a user issue.

You're not wrong Mike. This thread as ventured into pedantic.

[jack duren]

Domino doesn’t go in but one way..

you likee you can usee for everything. Okay with me..

[Thomas Crawford]

I think someone mentioned glue failure earlier, having 2 glue joints. I think this would be mitigated by glue selection, if you are worried about 30/50/100 years from now use hide glue or similar and it will be repairable like any other glued joint.

FWIW I own a DF500 and like it. I get no joy out of chopping mortises by hand so its great even if you are just simply replacing a hollow chisel mortiser (like Derek's pics earlier).

[mike stenson]

You're not wrong Mike. This thread as ventured into pedantic.

At this point, I'm going with user error.

[Mike Cutler]

I do not own a Domino, nor have I ever used one.
Many people that have responded do this type of work for a living, and to be honest, I'm envious. These folks know multiple ways to produce an M&T Joint, and do not limit themselves to just one method.
I make "traditional", integrated, M&T joints. That's just what I like to do. Loose tenon joinery is every bit as strong, as long as it is sized properly, and follows the rules. To many magazine articles and tests have proved that through the years.
I think that one of the things we forget, folks that have been doing this for years, is just how hard it is to make an M&T joint.
It is a very exact joint, in all three axis. Everything has to as close to perfect as can be, or the joint is weakened, or you have a lot of sanding and filing to do. If a Domino helps someone achieve this, and make something useful for themself, or a family member, then have a blast.
As for the cost, that's just not relevant. We all have some form of past time, or hobby, that we spend too much money on. I've wasted more money shooting at clay pigeons, than someone will ever spend on a Domino, and I'm not even very good at it.;)

[Derek Cohen]

Here is another helpful use of the Domino DF500. Through mortices in chair legs, used with (still shaping) integrated tenons in chair seats ...

https://i.postimg.cc/V5QS1681/T11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The legs are curved, and the mortices are 30mm long (x10mm wide), consequently the positioning needed the jig (as the maximum length for dominos is 24mm) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/1tnwKtZQ/Legs8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The tenons are integral, rather than loose, as the seats are hollowed, and maximum strength is needed. These were hand sawn as they are compound angles ...

https://i.postimg.cc/zfJgVVRG/T7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The use of the Domino here was key.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jared Sankovich]

It's a quick easy way to cut a oval shaped slot. If you eat soup with a fork, Is the fork the problem?


The 700 worked well here fixing a poor design and a even worse repair attempt(s)
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[Todd Zucker]

some people sing about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiDcPUOD-vY


Thank you for that.