Blue Max Bandsaw Tires for MM16

[Bruce Wrenn]

Looking at another thread about tires for the MM16 saw led me to do a google search of Blue Max tires for band saws. In their Ebay store, they list a set (2) for less than $60, that fit the MM16. Just an FYI, to be soon forgotten.

[Jim Becker]

I have these in my "shopping list" on Amazon...a little more money than that, but posting as an option:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F5GYPTW/?coliid=I2BTKHPNP06K1C&colid=1PSSQPHW1W9Z9&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

[Tom Trees]

They don't have a tongue, and one would have questions about how much of a crown a flat urethane tire (if these are flat?, unlike the crowned Centauro CO tires)
will create on either side of the wheel when installed.
No crown means no beam tension!
and the saw will not cut well, bog down, burn, and not be in any way accurate, and in all likelihood ('cuz evidently no-one aligns wheels on bandsaws)
compresses set on regular blades, as I've got a box of old ones with minimal use though unusable without setting the teeth again.

Here's the Centauro CO 600 tire for you to see, (for the modern ones which have the grooved wheels)
and although most here seemingly reckon I've either got a reject, from the official UK dealer..
or that the profile is different on 600mm wheeled machines compared to the ones made for the Centauro built MM16 ,
I've yet to find out,
but I'd have no reason to believe the offset apex crown profile would differ on that size wheel,
seeing as the other company down the road making Minimax saws (with vulcanized rubber) state the profile on a similar sized wheel, the 440mm,
in the promo video, aswell as Sam Blasco going through the exact same blade tracking routine/setup, on both flavours of Minimax machines,
as well as the Centauro SP manual ...(the only Centauro manual to state what the profile should be)

I suppose you could just ask, or seek to see if the CO tires from S&S UK are the same as suited as on the Minimax machines,
I'd have no reason to see it would be any different on a MM24 or the CO 600
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Technomax...
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Or the ones with the Minimax sticker would be any different
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And after my own experience, actually having an acting flat profile from dressing my vulcanized rubber like so (not recommended)
the results are very revealing.
I just read an old thread called "the reluctant bandsaw" recently on the Felder owners group,
It kinda sums up my experiences, and I wouldn't be surprised if the "previously unmentioned until recently" profile of the tires might have
changed due to temperature extremes or whatnot, as that crown is obviously very slight.
I dressed mine this summer, in a heat wave and the real rubber acted differently to when I dressed them every other time.

A bit sleepy on my part, still thinking my machine had flat tires, or that flat tires actually work, etc.
as I had the answer already, and could'a heeded ACM's promo video, but I was just wanting to mythbust that idea for myself,
and carry out some more experimentation.

A big red herring!...
and all I had to do was to study the Centauro CO replacement tire I had hidden in a bag.

Well in my defence, it sure looked flat!. :o
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One can see anticlastic curvature is apparent here, as the profile makes a very notable change when stretched out
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The apex of the crown is offset by 1mm,
so unless one reckons this tire from the official UK dealer is a reject...
Then this means there is an acting crown/apex on the wheels,
as one cannot suggest the slight camber evident is to account for anticlastic curvature,
(see Cooks sawmill video below)
i.e creating a totally flat profile when installed.
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Anticlastic curvature demonstraded below, i.e...(a flat tire will curl up on both sides)
Regards of how it may appear, there is compression on those areas, an acting crown,
but that does not explain why you seemingly don't see the offset apex,
which suggests flat tires with such a slight camber would not be the intention, seeing as they go to the bother of doing so,
surely suggests there are gains for performance also.

[Tom Trees]

Some more pics of my Centauro tire
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Not really a true reading due to the tongue twisting the tire, and the fact this should be done around a something round,
but it gets the point across.
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(Cooks sawmill video below for ye to ponder about, demonstrating this phenomenon)
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Happy new year folks.

Tom

[Erik Loza]

I have these in my "shopping list" on Amazon...a little more money than that, but posting as an option:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F5GYPTW/?coliid=I2BTKHPNP06K1C&colid=1PSSQPHW1W9Z9&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Jim, I noticed those as well and have one minor reservation: Wonder if they actually tested those on a live MM16 or are they just adding the MM16 to their list of “should fit because the saw saw says 16 on it”? Reason I mention this is because there were issues with folks trying Carter 18” tires on the S45N. The issue being that 18” is not quite 450mm, just like 16” is not quite 400mm. The tires ended up being too loose and squishing out. Really curious to know. It would be great to have an alternative to OEM.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

That's a very good point, Erik. I don't need to change mine, but should that ever have to happen, I'mma gonna be careful. :) Looking at the reviews...apparently they fit, but require adhesive. I wonder if that's because they are a hair loose as you mention to be a possibility.

[Tom Trees]

The new Woodmaster CT blade didn't seem to like being run on those urethane tires, on that MM16 video,
(before the incident, that is)
Once I seen that video, I made my mind up about them, not to mention seeing very similar type tires on some other cheaper machines.
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[Bruce Wrenn]

The new Woodmaster CT blade didn't seem to like being run on those urethane tires, on that MM16 video,
(before the incident, that is)
Once I seen that video, I made my mind up about them, not to mention seeing very similar type tires on some other cheaper machines.
512951Before posting, did you READ the banner across video. These are Carter tires, not Blue Max's made for the MM16. Just might make a difference if right tires were installed. A quick call to Blue Max on Tuesday (Monday is a holiday) could answer questions as to are these made to fit the MM16. Couldn't get video to play, so I don't know what is in it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Off topic however I have used the Bluemax tires on the Felder FB510 and Hammer N4400 daws successfully.

Both of the above saws are flat wheel machines.

Regards, Rod

[Tom Trees]

I'd sooner get the the right replacement, as that groove is there to align on the wheels,
as there's chance of a variable camber happening with other flavours (unless one were to check with tramming before glue sets)
Well, that's my impression, but you can speculate other things might be at play here on the Far Eastern machine below...

If it were an Italian wheel which had replaceable tires, like for like...
and not featuring an alignment groove, which you won't see on any Italian machines, as likely all else but modern Centauro tires are being dressed on wheels...

and something pre-crowned was used, like on those Laguna 18bx saws, should someone have done this before,
then there wouldn't be anything else to speculate, why did the replacement wheel work in this case?
The wheel was pulled from the shaft, so nothing changed there.

I guess most wouldn't be bothered to watch the videos, as it would take a few timestamped links, and I ain't searching through that.
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So it would be worth checking that with some sorta lash up, say with a thicker bit of blunt steel or something, clamped to a block
to ensure the edge of the tire might be true, as the edge of the wheel might not be.

Or just check the wheels beforehand and make flush if sound.
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If one were to try compare those differing profiles, there might be some folks who have replaced tires on their Laguna machines, or older Italian saws with the Cater rubber ones, which might be flat?
It might be the best comparison you'd find between the little crown achieved from anticlastic curvature, vs someone dressing them thereafter.
I've not found that.

PS worth mentioning again the set on the narrower blades will get compressed without dressing.
Though perhaps the urethane tires might have some give compared to the harder rubber, there's a few examples certainly looks so,
Just saying worth seeing the results using a regular non carbide blade before considering.

Even if that might be a non -issue, running such a blade on that profile in which the crown is due to the sides of the tire curling up,
then it sure looks like you'd be damaging them fairly quickly.

(though, I'd not be surprised if all these came with a crown TBH)




All the best
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Tom, my 2003 MM16 made by Centauro has wheels with an alignment groove. There's literally a sticker on the inside of the top door in multiple languages that calls attention to this and the fact that the groove is offset from center, requiring care when installing replacements. And once again, the tires are not crowned.

[Tom Trees]

Sounds like you're agreed with me somewhat on the importance of having the tire being true on the wheel.

Still trying to figure out what you mean here... "the tires are not crowned" as if it's a totally flat profile on the rubber
then it'll be concave when installed.

Perhaps that might be the consensus here, and my spare CO tire should have an apex on centre to account for this.
Seems a bit doubtful as the tongue/groove is offset also.

You can mention again that these are different to the modern CO saws,
but I've shown these photos of the SP wheel before, similar size wheel, same manufacturer, and once again, the manual for the machine,
is the only Italian machine to mention any profile of the tires whatsoever, that I've seen, as only tracking is mentioned on others.
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All the best
Tom

[Erik Loza]

Jim, in regards to aftermarket tires, I’m not sure that the groove matters. I mean,it could if someone planned to run a really skinny blade and track it over the spot where the groove was but for wider blades, I can’t imagine it would matter that much. My feeling was always that the factory indexed the groove more as a guide for the assembly line, as to which way to face the wheel during production. If you think about it, tongue-and-groove tires are probably cheaper, from a manufacturing standpoint, than having to glue or vulcanize a tire onto a wheel. I mean, the modern Centauro tires feel more like plastic than rubber (though they should be made from gold-inlaid graphene, for what Parts Pronto asks for them). Anyway, I always assumed they went the went they went for cost reasons rather than any design advantage. All this being said, Rod’s comments are exciting since it seems like Blue Max might actually be offering a legit Metric option for MM owners.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

I forgot to mention that some Meber's came with grooved wheels, like this
The P400 was a Laguna LT16 frame by the looks of things, should it also have grooved wheels, and should they be the same offset groove like the one in the link,
then it might be worth seeing if you can get a few hits i the search regarding choices or what works and what might not.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/meber-bandsaws-users-comments-experiences-sought-33734/3

Tom

[Tom Trees]

Tires are a consumable you might say, yet it seems a bit of a task to find some folks replacing the vulcanized flavour
what's now amongst the top choice of saws, i.e if the Laguna LT range is still available, and the SCM formula/Minimax saws, both made by ACM.

I've got a video of my saw not being able to cut a piece of ash, due to me dressing a flat profile on the vulcanized tire,
(The videos of dressing flat tires are there too, for those interested.)
with a new blade which was unused IIRC, the set was compressed just like the other blades I've got,

so it makes it very apparent, the importance of the crown in regards to the saw refusing to cut before dressing a crown on the wheels.
I should'a filmed the same blade cutting the piece thereafter, should one speculate my timber has got drier since.



All the best
Tom

[Dave Sabo]

I forgot to mention that some Meber's came with grooved wheels, like this
The P400 was a Laguna LT16 frame by the looks of things, should it also have grooved wheels, and should they be the same offset groove

Tom

Laguna hasn’t sourced a saw from Meber in 30-40 years !

[Jim Becker]

Jim, in regards to aftermarket tires, I’m not sure that the groove matters. I mean,it could if someone planned to run a really skinny blade and track it over the spot where the groove was but for wider blades, I can’t imagine it would matter that much. My feeling was always that the factory indexed the groove more as a guide for the assembly line, as to which way to face the wheel during production. If you think about it, tongue-and-groove tires are probably cheaper, from a manufacturing standpoint, than having to glue or vulcanize a tire onto a wheel. I mean, the modern Centauro tires feel more like plastic than rubber (though they should be made from gold-inlaid graphene, for what Parts Pronto asks for them). Anyway, I always assumed they went the went they went for cost reasons rather than any design advantage. All this being said, Rod’s comments are exciting since it seems like Blue Max might actually be offering a legit Metric option for MM owners.

Erik
I agree with you, Erik. I do not believe the alignment grooves matter for aftermarket tires. I was only pointing out that they exist, per the sticker on the door. Size is absolutely important, whether held by friction or adhesive.

[Lee Schierer]

As you can see there have been several posts deleted. If the trend continues, the thread my be locked and or vanish. Let's keep it civil and stick with the facts. Sometimes when we see things differently than others, we can all agree to disagree

[Tom Trees]

As you can see there have been several posts deleted. If the trend continues, the thread my be locked and or vanish. Let's keep it civil and stick with the facts. Sometimes when we see things differently than others, we can all agree to disagree

Hard to stick to the facts, or indeed try to moderate it, when the facts themselves aren't very civil to discuss! :rolleyes:
I take it, lots see my posts as possibly bashing the design of whichever flavour or colour schemed saw available today,
when infact things are very much the opposite, and it's testament to the quality of the parts.

[Jim Becker]

Still trying to figure out what you mean here... "the tires are not crowned" as if it's a totally flat profile on the rubber
then it'll be concave when installed.

This is what I mean, Tom...the surface of the tires are flat and perpendicular to the sides of the wheels. The bands are run with the teeth slightly off the front edge of the wheels which is common for uncrowned tire bandsaws. This photo was taken today while I was cleaning up my MM16 and installing a new band on it as well as replacing the 20 year old foam tape on the inside of the doors.

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[Tom Trees]

Not sure what you're showing Jim, and can only guess it's something like this, from my first attempts at dressing them.
One can see things are clearly needing a lick again.
Whilst one can see the apex in these photos, so a good example of testing things through various stages, from a mile off, to as flat as what the square & straight edge would
read, bearing in mind the wheels had a 0.5mm discrepancy of the face, as likely with most machines.
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As it happens that/any apex was pretty difficult to eliminate, it's almost like the machine was fighting me! :)

In the end I had to cut a rebate into the scraper mounting block to stop specifically that from happening.
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I could screenshot or timestamp my videos and whatnot, to demonstrate flat as good as your eye will see,
but the proof is in in the pudding, and such crown either perceivable or otherwise exists, regardless of what one can see,
as having no crown is a recipe for blade set compression, and I'm including blades of a suitable width, strictly to be run with the teeth off the wheel, at that
Hence my comment about anticlastic curvature providing a crown on the edge of the wheel........
if it is indeed true, that all these urethane tires might have a flat profile (uninstalled, that is)
I'd guess it might just turn out somewhat a bit more similar to the CO saws than some might reckon, (except for the offset crown apex obviously)
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Obviously, I'm way off the mark here, and whatnot, but just clearing up matters on that deceptive profile on Centauro's tires.
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Happy new year

Tom

[Erik Loza]

Jim, this thread has me thinking about “outside-the-box” options for tires. Assuming were talking about a wide blade, I’m not even totally sure that a tire is necessary. That sounds whacky but I’ve seen plenty of ancient shop machines with practically non-existent tires that ran fine. Also, one of the handful of bandsaws I sold during my time with Felder was an FB710. That particular machine basically doesn’t have tires. It seemed to be just this ribbon of canvas fabric-type material glued to the wheel. Zero cushioning. I’d never seen anything like it before but the FB710 is a really nice saw and it behaved fine.

So, is it possible that (assuming the owner is not planning to fit a small blade) that you don’t need a conventional tire? It’s a crazy notion but if I had an MM16, I’m curious enough that I’d remove the tires and give it a shot. No answers, just thoughts.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik, metal cutting band saws have uncrowned metal wheels without tires.

Regards, Rod

[Erik Loza]

Erik, metal cutting band saws have uncrowned metal wheels without tires.

Regards, Rod

Rod, thanks. Of all the bandsaws I’ve sold/worked on/etc., cannot remember a single issue that could be attributed to tires or tire condition. But again, none of these were abused, ex-shop machines.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Jim, this thread has me thinking about “outside-the-box” options for tires. Assuming were talking about a wide blade, I’m not even totally sure that a tire is necessary. That sounds whacky but I’ve seen plenty of ancient shop machines with practically non-existent tires that ran fine. Also, one of the handful of bandsaws I sold during my time with Felder was an FB710. That particular machine basically doesn’t have tires. It seemed to be just this ribbon of canvas fabric-type material glued to the wheel. Zero cushioning. I’d never seen anything like it before but the FB710 is a really nice saw and it behaved fine.

So, is it possible that (assuming the owner is not planning to fit a small blade) that you don’t need a conventional tire? It’s a crazy notion but if I had an MM16, I’m curious enough that I’d remove the tires and give it a shot. No answers, just thoughts.

Erik
The wheels on my MM16 seem to have "edges" as far as I can tell (but I could certainly be wrong about that) so unlike those "auld arn" machines with smooth metal wheels (I think some metal cutting bandsaws don't have tires, too) I do not believe one could run a band on the wheel without a tire installed. But that's certainly speculation since I have not needed to change out those "beautiful" 2003 tires at this point. They are certainly cleaner now after today's maintenance...since I can't really do projects due to the cast on my right wrist, I'm "puttering" in the shop doing various sharpening things and machine maintenance that is unfortunately way over due on some things.

[Jim Becker]

Not sure what you're showing Jim

Succinctly, I'm showing that the tires on my MM16 are flat. They are not crowned and never have been.

[Tom Trees]

I've got no reason to believe anyone without seeing the tire profile when off the wheel, so unless that's what you've shown,
then I will continue to mention the offset crown on Centauro wheels is apparent, as with the rest of the Minimax/Centauro saws,
as per the SP manual, which take the same tires as the CO machines.
i.e on the 500mm wheeled size for the CO or SP saws.
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All the best
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Well...on the wheel is what counts in the end and as I clearly show in that nice fresh photo, the tire is flat. I'm out of this discussion.

[Erik Loza]

To Jim's point, even if there was some minor crown on the tire, Centauro wheels are machined flat and when you put a 1" blade on there with 20,000psi+ of tension, that tire is going to get flat. I'm likewise about through with these types of "debates". Peace to all and so long as your personal machine runs the way you want, nobody else's opinion matters.

Erik

[andrew whicker]

I got some orange tires from Sulphur grove.. called to ensure 600 mm would work. Supposedly don't need glue
.. bs. They need glue. The next advice is to use a gasket adhesive in a few spots.

In the spots without the adhesive I can easily move the tire back and forth. My bottom tire came off when I ran the machine. So I re did the bottom tire (removed, cleaned etc) and am currently waiting on the adhesive to dry (again) to try my failure of a centauro again. Maybe buy different tires.

So anyway. Not happy with this brand so far...

[Erik Loza]

Andrew, is it a true 600mm tire or a 24" tire that they say ought to work for a 600mm machine? Only curious. I agree, BTW: You gotta' use some type of adhesive to keep the tire in place when there isn't a groove or something. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Erik