Designing a dining carver chair

[Derek Cohen]

We need two new dining room chairs, carvers to go with a new dining table (build after this one). The inspiration for the carver chairs was this photo ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bYSWdfZc/2.jpg


I have since concluded that an elliptical or oval leg profile (see earlier thread - Link (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?306772-Shaping-elliptical-curved-chair-legs)) is not practical. This is a shape would be constructed with CNC machinery in the absence of special shaper/router bits. The shape was my wife's choice, not mine - I prefer rounded, tapered legs, ala the Wegner The Chair style. So back to the drawing board.



For interest, I had drawn up and mocked out the chair. I still like the overall design, but the top section needs some more tweeking. It is too high to rest arms on and fit under the table top ...



https://i.postimg.cc/gkXFrwjq/10.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



The design of the chair needs to compliment the bentwood chairs here, which are original early 1900s. The table is to be replaced with a longer, wider one.



https://i.postimg.cc/63MJ4nCz/8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



https://i.postimg.cc/FFnX9brH/9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



This table is over 200 years old, and has great sentimental value. It is built of Yellow Wood (top) and Stinkwood (legs). We bought this after getting married. Now, 42 years later, Lynndy wants a larger table. The plan is a top in Rock Maple and round, parallel legs in Jarrah. Mid Century modern, and the aim is to blend two modern Mid Century carvers with the bentwood chairs. Consequently, a lighter look for the carvers is needed.



Regards from Perth



Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the re-design.

The legs have been made thinner, with 25mm top and bottom, and 32mm around the seat area. The 35mm thick seat will be attached with mortice-and-tenons (not sure yet whether integral or loose tenons). These will be 25x10mm.

The curve has been retained in the legs ... since this is a desired feature to soften the look and also link with the bentwood chairs. The legs will now be round and not oval. The complication, in shaping, is that there is a taper and a curve.

The height of the top section has been reduced significantly. It is possible to see the original design below the new design ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kMkX87yx/15.jpg

All-in-all much slimmed down.

Then there are finer details being worked out, such as the curve at the rear of the backrest and seat to link with the roundness of the bentwood chairs. The transition from the legs to the arm rest is borrowed from Hans Wegner ...

https://i.postimg.cc/MKVZmgsg/17.jpg

The plan shape for the arm- and back rest will come later.

Thoughts?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

$179 bucks:

https://www.roveconcepts.com/wishbone-chair?locale=en_US&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAnL-sBhBnEiwAJRGigjmYwOvF27eUVpSXdC7I8Fav-SVdk2y4iYnjm7mUMQT7WD0pb8DDPxoCtQcQAvD_BwE&aid[12]=173&aid[35]=445

$339 bucks:

https://www.roveconcepts.com/round-chair

These chairs are a masterpiece of industrial design as they were meant to be -- high style, but could be (and are being) produced in volume and thus made affordable. Designing the work flow and shop floor processes to produce dozens of these a day is the most remarkable thing about them, beyond the original design.

Logic is being turned a bit on its head when the hand-made article is being made to match the original, machine-made one, and one designed for machine manufacturing in the first place.

I'd love to see a virtuoso jig maker take a crack at these and knock out two dozen a week in his or her garage shop. Now THAT would be quite the accomplishment.

[Derek Cohen]

Charlie, you're a class act.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

Charlie, you're a class act.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My insatiable interest in furniture of all kinds has always been my own undoing.

Nothing sadder than the murder of a beautiful theory at the hands of brutal facts.

[Derek Cohen]

Charlie, what is sadder is how successfully you manage to troll forums, and disrupt threads, adding little other than your smarminess.

Well done.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

At some point, watching somebody count on others' stupidity is just too much to bear.

You'll no doubt hack-and-wheeze your way to a couple of chairs using five times the amount of wood it should have taken, and fifteen times the time.

[Derek Cohen]

At some point, watching somebody count on others' stupidity is just too much to bear.

It's called narcissism, Charlie.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

It's called narcissism, Charlie.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ha! Pot, meet black kettle.

At least I haven't regressed to spending $2,000 on wood (and God only knows how much time) to reproduce a couple of $250 chairs, and then call it 'craftsmanship.' And then take internet bows for the next three months after having done so.

Please, brother. Narcissism oozes out of your pores.

Let me hazard a guess. This 'build' will be posted on every woodworking forum of any repute on the internet (already is I think). And you'll spend a not insignificant amount of time monitoring and responding to comments on all of them. And if you don't get the love you think the project deserves, you'll mourn the impending death of internet woodworking forums. All of this mostly for the purpose of being feted when the two-chair build is finally done months from now, with some forest in Australia on the brink of catastrophic ecosystem collapse.

And I'm the narcissist.

[Edward Weber]

I can't tell if you guys are friends, enimies or something in between.
I do however have to agree with Charles on this



Logic is being turned a bit on its head when the hand-made article is being made to match the original, machine-made one, and one designed for machine manufacturing in the first place.


If you want to make chairs, then by all means go for it but for me, there's always a measure of practicality.
Could I make it, sure. Should I make it, probably not.
Time/money is sometimes better spent elsewhere.
Chairs can be tricky to get right. It's been said, I don't know by whom, "Build a chair and you get a reputation for about a decade, longer if it's any good".
JMHO

[Charles Edward]

Beyond the artistic/design accomplishment, the skill was and is in setting up for high production. These chairs can be jigged for the router and shaper -- the jigs an engineering and 3-D masterpiece all their own. The chairs are almost an afterthought.

[Derek Cohen]

I can't tell if you guys are friends, enimies or something in between.
I do however have to agree with Charles on this



If you want to make chairs, then by all means go for it but for me, there's always a measure of practicality.
Could I make it, sure. Should I make it, probably not.
Time/money is sometimes better spent elsewhere.
Chairs can be tricky to get right. It's been said, I don't know by whom, "Build a chair and you get a reputation for about a decade, longer if it's any good".
JMHO


Edward, Charlie and I have a love-hate relationship. It depends on the mood he is in, whether he is back on the sauce, or if he just wakes up grumpy and is feeling hormonal owing to the sex-change meds not kicking in. We have known each other about 20 years on the forums - he has been around with a multitude of names, as he likes to mess with people. Like Warren, Charlie offers critique and nothing more. But he does have some good insights, even though they likely are the result of snorting something.

His point about cost of equipment versus purchase of furniture is spurious. First of all, if you want to purchase cheaply made copies of Wegner (the pieces he linked to), then go ahead. The differences are obvious, and you take the sizing and wood choices that are given. Secondly, we are woodworkers, and capable of building anything, and doing so better than offered. I have furnished 90% of my home and working on my son's now. Building for oneself is worth more than the wood costs. Thirdly, I have been doing this for quite a number of decades, am a hobbiest, and the machines and tools I have purchased over the years reflect the pleasure I get from using them. I spent far more (much more!) on windsurfing equipment back when I raced on the National circuit. By now, all the furniture I have built would have cost several times the layout for the machines and tools I own.

Charlie only makes these points to pull your chain, which is why I am responding to you (since you raised them) and not he.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Hughes]

Derek has two things going for him.
He’s both a good woodworker and word-worker. Some are one or the other maybe neither
Charlie remains me if that guy David W. we kicked out.

[Mike Allen1010]

As my Master Chief in the Navy used to say when guys would start bar fights- “take it outside, I’m here to have a good time “. Not sure what the internet equivalent of that is but if we have to go outside, I’m with Derek.

Gentlemen, can’t we get along here? I for one, want to see Derek’s chair build. Remember, this is just woodworking- there is literally nothing at stake here!

Happy New Year to All!

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I think that in a woodworking forum, arguing that you can buy it for cheaper is by default, missing the point...
I am [sigh] still not done building my bench - my family jokes it will be done on time for my son's 18th (he is 1 years old).
I am sure if I count my hourly, have saved money paying someone else to make it (would probably have finer joinery too).
still, I regret nothing!

[Daan Goense]

$179 bucks:

https://www.roveconcepts.com/wishbone-chair?locale=en_US&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAnL-sBhBnEiwAJRGigjmYwOvF27eUVpSXdC7I8Fav-SVdk2y4iYnjm7mUMQT7WD0pb8DDPxoCtQcQAvD_BwE&aid[12]=173&aid[35]=445

$339 bucks:

https://www.roveconcepts.com/round-chair

These chairs are a masterpiece of industrial design as they were meant to be -- high style, but could be (and are being) produced in volume and thus made affordable. Designing the work flow and shop floor processes to produce dozens of these a day is the most remarkable thing about them, beyond the original design.

Logic is being turned a bit on its head when the hand-made article is being made to match the original, machine-made one, and one designed for machine manufacturing in the first place.

I'd love to see a virtuoso jig maker take a crack at these and knock out two dozen a week in his or her garage shop. Now THAT would be quite the accomplishment.

If you like the Wegner chairs, there are a number of options:

1) You buy a cheap imitation for a few hundred dollars. Made from wood robbed from the jungles of Africa or the Amazon, made by people who work under labor conditions that you can question. You are not annoyed by sloppily made connections and diverging dimensions. Moreover, you don't worry about the copyright on the design. 2) You have the budget and buy a chair made by the Danish copyright holder for thousands of dollars. Made from certified wood by professionals who work under controlled Scandinavian working conditions for a decent wage. You know how to appreciate quality. 3) you receive or inherit one for free from a relation who made it from wood of known origin. The parts of the wood have been carefully selected so that the pattern ends up in the right place on the chair. It was made with you in mind.

I am sure that the third option will be appreciated the most, especially if the quality matches that of the professional Danish craftsmen, but also if it shows some characteristics of an amateur.

Best wishes for 2024 from a frequent reader of this forum.

Daan

[Dean Arthur]

Would love to see this build develop so please keep us updated. Passed by some about a month ago, ones from Carl Hansen & Søn, and thought it would interesting and fun to build by hand. Are you going to go with the solid seat or danish cord?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dean

There is quite a bit of tweaking still to do. The height of the table is pretty standard, and the new chairs have been re-drawn a few times to ensure that they fit. For example, the centre of the new chairs is the same height as the bentwood chairs, and I played around with mock-ups of the arm rest to ensure this is at a comfortable height.

The seat will be solid wood. It will be curved with the rear dished. I have returned to the seat tilt, which will be made higher to take into account added carving out at the rear. Interestingly, it was Charlie who questioned the tilt. I based the seat height and tilt on a Wegner chair I built, and the original I have, along with the height of the bentwood chairs. The Wegner looks different as it has vertical legs. Difficult to judge from pictures.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Frank]

I will also follow the build. I could not build one myself but love watching Derek build.

Of course someone could buy something similar but the feeling of creating something is wonderful.

The comments by one person on this thread were completely unnecessary.

[Peter Mich]

I will follow along, too. You’ll be dealing with many issues and challenges along the way and I am eager to learn from your efforts to push forward. Go get ‘em. It was difficult to understand the rationale for the comments made by the other fellow…is that what they call trolling?

[Mark Rainey]

Perhaps one forum member got a bit irritable, but both members have a tremendous fund of knowledge and we need their expertise. Move on.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Derek,

I have always been fascinated with light, simple, but elegant chairs. Hans Wegner's 'round chair' is a particular favorite.
I've even dabbled at taking past designs and modifying to my own taste with varying success.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?291842-walnut-chair&p=3127205#post3127205

I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with and the execution.

-Jeff

[Tony Wilkins]

Here, here! Says the guy that’s struggling along to make a simple table.

[Edward Weber]

Edward, Charlie and I have a love-hate relationship. It depends on the mood he is in, whether he is back on the sauce, or if he just wakes up grumpy and is feeling hormonal owing to the sex-change meds not kicking in. We have known each other about 20 years on the forums - he has been around with a multitude of names, as he likes to mess with people. Like Warren, Charlie offers critique and nothing more. But he does have some good insights, even though they likely are the result of snorting something.

His point about cost of equipment versus purchase of furniture is spurious. First of all, if you want to purchase cheaply made copies of Wegner (the pieces he linked to), then go ahead. The differences are obvious, and you take the sizing and wood choices that are given. Secondly, we are woodworkers, and capable of building anything, and doing so better than offered. I have furnished 90% of my home and working on my son's now. Building for oneself is worth more than the wood costs. Thirdly, I have been doing this for quite a number of decades, am a hobbiest, and the machines and tools I have purchased over the years reflect the pleasure I get from using them. I spent far more (much more!) on windsurfing equipment back when I raced on the National circuit. By now, all the furniture I have built would have cost several times the layout for the machines and tools I own.

Charlie only makes these points to pull your chain, which is why I am responding to you (since you raised them) and not he.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for clarifying.
I don't however need the whole building over buying spiel, I am a woodworker and I'm completely aware of what goes into a project. It's a personal decision to be sure, I can't always build what I need/want for various external factors, like time, money or space to name a few.

If you have the time to build your chairs, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will enjoy following along.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I have always been fascinated with light, simple, but elegant chairs. Hans Wegner's 'round chair' is a particular favorite.
I've even dabbled at taking past designs and modifying to my own taste with varying success.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?291842-walnut-chair&p=3127205#post3127205

I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with and the execution.

-Jeff

Jeff, I said then and I'll say again, that your chair is stunning. You may have set out with The Chair in mind, which is near-impossible to copy from photos, as a result of which your creation is quite different. Nevertheless it is beautiful. It has "movement", which defines for me a great composition.

One of the features of your chair, which is present in many chairs I see, is the use of rails, upon which the seat is attached. Even The Chair uses rails. In the chair I am building, the rails will be omitted, and the seat morticed to the legs. The aim is to create a "light" chair, pared down to the minimum of parts.

Will this be strong enough? The Rock Maple seat blank starts off at 50mm thick, and is carved back to 35mm. This allows for a mortice & tenon with a height of 30mm at most, and likely 25mm. If made integral to the seat, this will be 12mm wide. If a Domino is used, it will be 10mm (and made from Rock Maple).

The rigidity for the chair comes from connections at the seat and arms/back.

Thoughts for all on this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

There's a risk they won't work well with a dining table with that deep an apron. The chairs you are contemplating and others of the same ilk (see link below) are more drawing room/smoking chairs. The armrests come all the way to the front of the chairs, though in your design inspiration they don't quite, and they also have a bit of a downward tilt. This may help. If you look at an English elbow chair, with the arms set back through cranked front legs, you'll see how designers turned a comfortable design to one that could be pulled all the way up to a table. If you can't get your chair close enough, food-in-the-lap results.

These chairs' arms bump into the tabletop (scroll down). No bueno as a dining chair at all and were never meant to be. The diner is forced to sit near the front edge of the seat to get close enough to his or her plate of food:

https://interioricons.com/products/the-round-chair-ash?gad_source=1

These are specifically designed to be able to be pulled up close enough, though obviously not in the style you prefer. Presented only to illustrate the point:

https://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.co.uk/artworkdetail/847259/17805/a-george-iii-mahogany-armchair

Obviously your design can be customized, up to a point, to solve the problem.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Jeff, I said then and I'll say again, that your chair is stunning. You may have set out with The Chair in mind, which is near-impossible to copy from photos, as a result of which your creation is quite different. Nevertheless it is beautiful. It has "movement", which defines for me a great composition.

One of the features of your chair, which is present in many chairs I see, is the use of rails, upon which the seat is attached. Even The Chair uses rails. In the chair I am building, the rails will be omitted, and the seat morticed to the legs. The aim is to create a "light" chair, pared down to the minimum of parts.

Will this be strong enough? The Rock Maple seat blank starts off at 50mm thick, and is carved back to 35mm. This allows for a mortice & tenon with a height of 30mm at most, and likely 25mm. If made integral to the seat, this will be 12mm wide. If a Domino is used, it will be 10mm (and made from Rock Maple).

The rigidity for the chair comes from connections at the seat and arms/back.

Thoughts for all on this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Yes I really like the simplicity of no rails. It think it will really give your chairs a light, lively feel to them.
I look forward to seeing things progress.

-Jeff

[Derek Cohen]

There's a risk they won't work well with a dining table with that deep an apron. The chairs you are contemplating and others of the same ilk (see link below) are more drawing room/smoking chairs. The armrests come all the way to the front of the chairs, though in your design inspiration they don't quite, and they also have a bit of a downward tilt. This may help. If you look at an English elbow chair, with the arms set back through cranked front legs, you'll see how designers turned a comfortable design to one that could be pulled all the way up to a table. If you can't get your chair close enough, food-in-the-lap results.

These chairs' arms bump into the tabletop (scroll down). No bueno as a dining chair at all and were never meant to be. The diner is forced to sit near the front edge of the seat to get close enough to his or her plate of food:

https://interioricons.com/products/the-round-chair-ash?gad_source=1

These are specifically designed to be able to be pulled up close enough, though obviously not in the style you prefer. Presented only to illustrate the point:

https://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.co.uk/artworkdetail/847259/17805/a-george-iii-mahogany-armchair

Obviously your design can be customized, up to a point, to solve the problem.


Hi Charles

That is a important observation. You and my wife said (a while back) the same thing!

This prompted one of the re-designs. You can see an earlier design behind a more current design (but not the last design), where the height of the arm rest has been lowered ...

https://i.postimg.cc/kMkX87yx/15.jpg

On its own this will not get one as close up as the bentwood chairs, however the new table will deal with this issue; The table will have 6" breadboard ends, and the aprons will be around 3" (as opposed to the 6-7" the current table has).

Incidentally, the tilt of the seat will alter. Your earlier comment made me aware that, while the tilt was the same in the drawing as an original Wegner The Chair (which I used as a reference), it did not take into account the seat shaping to come. Consequently, the front M&T will be raised 1/2" and the rear M&T by 1". That will give the external appearance of the seat being close to horizontal. The internal curve of the seat will drop the height 1/2" and then the internal scoop at the rear of the seat will be around another 1/2" deep (this will need to be calculated). I'll post fresh drawings when I return from Canberra.

Thanks for your insights!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks for taking the time to post this Derek. I look forward to following along through the process. Chairs are a great challenge to make both comfortable and beautiful.

[Keegan Shields]

Including arms that are connected to both front and back legs in your design will greatly increase the rigidity. You could likely reduce the amount of material in the seat to lighten the chairs up. Having the seat grain running side-to-side would also increase strength and allow even more material to be removed.

[Derek Cohen]

Keegan, the grain for the seat does run side-to-side. The main reason is to enable tenons to be integral. I have considered loose tenons, but the issue there is that the removal of waste for the seat curve/hollowing may interfere with morticing the sides. Integral tenons will be stronger.

The shaping of the seat is planned to create a 35mm high rim. This is the same as the seats for the bentwood chairs.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

That makes sense. Cut the tenons while the seat blank is still square then shape. Do you plan to hollow out the seat with hand tools?

[Chris Parks]

Setting the parameters for chairs is a bit of a challenge and stock sizes do not fit all. My wife is 4" 10" tall and she has never been able to find a chair that was comfortable so I set out to build one. Along the way I recalled a jig I had seen many years ago in FWW #096 that made the fitting of a chair to a specific person fairly easy so it got used and definitely works. I guess I can't post any details here but it is worth a look for anyone building chairs. The specific issues my wife has is being able to sit in a chair upright against the back rest without slumping and have her feet flat on the floor, this means the length, the height and the slope of the seat has to be very specific to her. Once that is decided the height of the arms has to be resolved and different uses mean different heights. The Morris chair I built had to have the arms lower than normal because she does a huge amount of hand sewing and having them higher interferes with her arm movement. If it was used as a lounge care and nothing else the arms would be a bit higher. I built the jig, fitted it to her and she sat in it for some months while we change things to suit the person and the use it was put to.

[mike stenson]

Setting the parameters for chairs is a bit of a challenge and stock sizes do not fit all. My wife is 4" 10" tall and she has never been able to find a chair that was comfortable so I set out to build one. Along the way I recalled a jig I had seen many years ago in FWW #096 that made the fitting of a chair to a specific person fairly easy so it got used and definitely works. I guess I can't post any details here but it is worth a look for anyone building chairs. The specific issues my wife has is being able to sit in a chair upright against the back rest without slumping and have her feet flat on the floor, this means the length, the height and the slope of the seat has to be very specific to her. Once that is decided the height of the arms has to be resolved and different uses mean different heights. The Morris chair I built had to have the arms lower than normal because she does a huge amount of hand sewing and having them higher interferes with her arm movement. If it was used as a lounge care and nothing else the arms would be a bit higher. I built the jig, fitted it to her and she sat in it for some months while we change things to suit the person and the use it was put to.


Thank you. My wife is 4'11". I'll go find it. Living room seating is already on my honey-do list.

[Derek Cohen]

After some discussion, and a sudden increased awareness of dining room chairs, I decided to level the seat in profile ...


https://i.postimg.cc/t4ybGWKJ/CH1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


The seat will not end up horizontal, however, but be curved across the width, and further carved for extra depth at the butt end.


This is a basic template for the seat ...


https://i.postimg.cc/QC52RdSc/CH2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


The seat will be attached directly to the circular legs with through integral tenons for strength, and because the curved seat would make it difficult to use loose tenons. The tenon/mortice with be 10x30mm.


A tracing of the legs was used to create templates ...


https://i.postimg.cc/x1R2fqQR/CH3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


In drawing the legs, each was mapped out separately, but with the same basic parameters: 25mm diameter at the top and bottom, and 30mm diameter through the centre. Similar curve plotted. The rear legs are roughly 30 mm longer than the front legs, and I anticipated that the proportions would differ as a result. However, when I placed the two templates on top of one another, they were exactly the same! And not only that, but the mortices were in exactly the same position as well!!


https://i.postimg.cc/TwZ87DjR/CH3-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


As a result, one template was used for both front and rear legs.


The plan was to bandsaw out each leg ...


https://i.postimg.cc/xdpVm7cN/CH6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


... and then use a pattern bit on the router table to trim the waste ...


https://i.postimg.cc/k5gdB9Xd/CH4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


This did not go to plan. The first leg was uneventful, but the second decided to explode. This is what I feared from the Rock Maple. Even with care in regard to grain direction, and resorting to climb cuts where needed, the router bit I had available was not helpful (the router bit I ordered had not arrived, and would be some days away).


https://i.postimg.cc/hjJW1rdy/CH5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


I had four leg blanks for the first chair cut out, and decided to do it in a method with which I am more comfortable ... with hand tools. Since there was so little waste to remove, a spokeshave on the inside curve was simple enough ...


https://i.postimg.cc/DfX3WxFm/CH7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


... and a hand plane on the outside curve was even easier ...


https://i.postimg.cc/4NRkppNP/CH8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


It is vital to check frequently that everything is perfectly square. Morticing would not be possible otherwise.


Rock maple may be hard and brittle, but it cuts cleanly with a plane blade.


The leg blanks are 30mm thick. Once the outline is cut to match the template, the ends will need to be reduced to 25mm ...


https://i.postimg.cc/9FP3bzDh/CH9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


Lastly, for now, the position of the mortice was marked on both sides of each leg. The legs will be attached with through mortice-and-tenons, and each mortice is cut half-wway from each side ...


https://i.postimg.cc/y87MbBRS/CH10.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


I am putting aside these legs for now, and will return to the final shaping, along with the other four, after the seats are made. which is next up.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Dean Arthur]

I have a near 100% success rate at ruining something whenever I pull out my router to speed up something I know I can do better by hand. Glad I'm not the only one :)

[Derek Cohen]

The question I have is whether to keep the ends of the mortices round, or square them off? Square ends make for easier square (hand cut) tenons .. integral to the seat), but round ends will look better - in keeping with the round legs.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[John Kananis]

I vote for square. It will give the work a nice hand-done look and will compliment the curvature nicely imho. Too much round looks machine made (I feel).

Also, I don't care for doing that sort of thing in a router table. If they're one off's then hand tools are the way to fly. If I absolutely must, I like using a hand held router, flipping the work as needed and climb cutting when necessary.

[Dean Arthur]

Square for sure - agree with all John said. I don't mind round, but only use them when batching out on my mortising unit. Even then, I tend to square the ends.

[Jim Koepke]

The question I have is whether to keep the ends of the mortices round, or square them off? Square ends make for easier square (hand cut) tenons .. integral to the seat), but round ends will look better - in keeping with the round legs.


Regards from Perth


Derek

I've done rounded tenons (& lovetails) by sizing the work to match one of my gouges. Makes it easy to get a tight fit for tenons or lovetails.

513624

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Dean and Jim. Dean, it sounds as though you prefer the look of squared ends, but Jim you do not say which you prefer. Will you say? And any other views, with explanations hopefully ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

One way to look at it is, will one or the other detract from your overall aesthetic?
Will the square stand out too much, or will the round look too "machine made" as has been mentioned.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Edward.

Another way to ask the question is for me to restate the situation as 'I plan to round the mortice-and-tenon because I view the round ends as more sympathetic to the whole design'. Then I need to ask the question, 'do you agree/disagree, and what are your reasons?'.

I am really trying to get some discussion going about design elements. I thought that this would be interesting and perhaps helpful for many.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Todd Zucker]

In your drawing of the side view of the chair, the mortises are tall parallelograms, and the mortises ends are not square or perpendicular to the leg itself. To me, the top and bottom of the mortises look parallel to the seat and the floor, assuming I am viewing things correctly. I find that geometry pleasing.

In your pattern for the leg itself, the mortise ends are square, like you would get from a mortise chisel. Because the legs are slanted in relation to the seat and the floor, I am not sure that squared mortise end would look great in relation to the entire chair once the legs and seat are fully assembled. If your choice is either to have a rectangular mortise or a rounded end, I think the rounded end would be better.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Todd. I agree, rounded ends blend in better.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Shaping the legs have been set aside until the seats are carved. Shaping the seats is a challenge I have been looking forward to, but I must admit that two days have passed, and there is not much to show for a lot of effort. Let's have a look at the design of the seats.


The notable feature of these chairs is that they do not have a single straight line. Anywhere. There are three design aspects ...


Firstly, the plan for the seats will be curved like these ...


https://i.postimg.cc/43cr3nZS/CH12.jpg


However, they are to be 35mm high at the sides, and recessed like these ...


https://i.postimg.cc/fTbp98DX/CH11.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/zfTcrMFm/CH21.jpg


The underside must curve sympathetically with the seat ...


https://i.postimg.cc/zGbQd3LG/CH20.jpg


The third factor is that the seats will be attached to the legs with mortice-and-tenons, and will not rest on stretchers, as most chairs appear to do (and seen in an example, above). The reason for this is to increase the appearance of lightness. Shaping of the seat has to make provision for the integral tenons.


The seats are to be shaped with a combination of power- and hand tools. Power is needed .... this is Rock Maple!


I spent time building a router sled to curve the tops and bottoms of the seats. The tops are documented here.


https://i.postimg.cc/brm55tHs/CH14.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/VvfT4Rtx/CH15.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/pTY4D7mQ/CH16.jpg


Today was 37 degrees Celsius (99 degrees Fahrenheit), and it was HOT in the unconditioned workshop, all windows and doors closed to be kind to neighbours. And it was slow going pushing the router back-and-forth. Plus it was messy ..


https://i.postimg.cc/jSmpKyVf/CH17.jpg


This was the result of my labours: two boards with the initial curves on their tops. These boards started out at 50mm thick.


https://i.postimg.cc/cLpbPZYM/CH22.jpg


There is a template for the basic shape. This is simply to position the tenons. The outline will be modified later ..


https://i.postimg.cc/8Pn3BLzY/CH19.jpg


The section for deeper hollowing is marked out, and a grid created to position 10mm holes through the centre and 5mm holes at the sides to guide waste removal ...


https://i.postimg.cc/NMYPf4dK/CH23.jpg


A scorp was used to remove the bulk of the waste ...


https://i.postimg.cc/x8ps5Snm/CH24.jpg


This was hard work - the Maple is hard stuff - and the next seat will use a different method. That will be revealed in the next post.


Shaping is done with travishers. I have two I built with different radius soles. This is one ..


https://i.postimg.cc/mkgX7rfR/CH25.jpg


The result of my labours .... across the width ...


https://i.postimg.cc/k4cYVbHf/CH26.jpg


And through the centre ...


https://i.postimg.cc/kMThqWK5/CH27.jpg


Lots of shaping still to be done at the front and underside.


In addition to the hollowing of the seat for comfort, the extra depth at the rear creates an effect tilt towards the rear legs. The amount of seat tilt can also be adjusted via shortening legs, if needed.


More soon.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Tony Shea]

That's amazing Derek. I really look forward to this build thread, this has to be one of my favorite chair designs.

I feel your pain with shaping a seat in rock maple! I made a Perch Stool a couple year back all in rock maple. I carved the seat completely with hand tools which I will most certainly never do again. I also don't own a lathe and made the legs/rails completely by hand as well.

513721

[Derek Cohen]

That's a nice stool, Tony. Beautifully shaped.

I built these three stools in Hard Maple for the kitchen a few years ago ...

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThreeCorneredStools_html_27c1b362.jpg

Beautiful wood, but a buggah to work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Dean and Jim. Dean, it sounds as though you prefer the look of squared ends, but Jim you do not say which you prefer. Will you say? And any other views, with explanations hopefully ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

My choice for something like this would be rounded through tenons. The would be made proud and rounded over the proudness. To me that feels more voluptuous.

jtk

[Jim Ritter]

Another thought in the rounded tenons, with the somewhat delicate dimensions of the legs a square corner could encourage a split.
Thanks for posting Derek, all good information.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

My choice for something like this would be rounded through tenons. The would be made proud and rounded over the proudness. To me that feels more voluptuous.

jtk

Jim, raised tenons look good on tables and a good idea for another time. bThe aim for these chairs is minimalism and sleekness, and I think that the "bumps" will detract.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Another thought in the rounded tenons, with the somewhat delicate dimensions of the legs a square corner could encourage a split.
Thanks for posting Derek, all good information.
Jim

Thanks Jim - another good reason to use round tenons :)

Have you retired now?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

The initial carving of the second seat ... time to learn something from the initial carving of the first seat! Rock Maple is bloody hard stuff. I have used a scorp to quickly carve Pine and Tasmanian Oak. I used a scorp to scoop out the first seat, and it was not fun in 37 degrees Celsius (98 Fahrenheit). Well today it is 39 degrees Celsius (102 Fahrenheit). Time to try something new.


Here is the second seat, which has been curved on the router sled ...


https://i.postimg.cc/Dy5QMpxz/CHH1.jpg


My 74th birthday present (3 days ago) was an Arbortech Turbo Plane kit ..


https://i.postimg.cc/Z5M8TBtt/CHH2.jpg


This can be set up in three ways: it can plane/joint rough boards, it can sand boards, and it can carve ...


https://i.postimg.cc/Z5RPtPQx/CHH3.jpg


It has variable speed, but I found carving is best at the fastest rate. Most importantly, it has some of the best dust control one can imagine. There is barely any chips to be found.


https://i.postimg.cc/JhHbtrMy/CHH4.jpg


The Turboplane was impressively fast in taking the surface down to the drilled depths ..


https://i.postimg.cc/WzTr90rr/CHH5.jpg


It is an angle grinder, and noisy, but less so than a router.


I mentioned that is is a sander as well. I took the opportunity to try this out. 60-grit was rapid, and left a surface as smooth as a baby's bum.


https://i.postimg.cc/264hF0qr/CHH9.jpg


The second new tool used was one I made ... literally in about 10 minutes at this point in time. I had a small coffin smoother, about 4" long, with an open mouth and a single iron. It had been purchased in an "antique" shop for a few Dollars several years ago for the express purpose of turning it into a chairmaker's plane. I admit - I procrastinated ... until today. These are curved front-to-back and side-to-side. It was not much work, and this is what materialised ...


https://i.postimg.cc/90b9sztk/CHH7.jpg


The iron was rusty, and simply flattened on the side of a 180 grit CBN wheel, and then shaped to match the curve of the plane. You can see that the camber is more like a jack plane than a scrub.


https://i.postimg.cc/ZRk6dG5w/CHH8.jpg


How did it work? Brilliantly! Really, after using the travishers, this plane left them in the dust ...


https://i.postimg.cc/Qx65b9M9/CHH11.jpg


There are a couple of red arrows in this photo. The upper one points to the added curved side lines. The seats were temporarily made with straight sides, but they will have a slight curve (no straight lines on the chairs). The second red line points to where the front of the seat ends. It will be cut off at this line.


The photo below shows the outline of the seat prior to the underside being curved in the router sled. Note the sections left for the tenons, and the red lines here represent the angle these will be (20 degrees at the front and 10 degrees at the rear) ...


https://i.postimg.cc/m2ZCCNTW/CHH12.jpg


Finally, the router sled was converted from convex to concave ...


https://i.postimg.cc/y8kRr1Jf/CHH13.jpg


That is for tomorrow.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Ritter]

Yes I retired in the sense that I rarely work on anything that has a deadline, lol. I’m helping on rebuilding a 62’ schooner when I can and when I want, and I do a lot less for money and more for friends and neighbors. Currently working on storm cleanup and rebuilding. The Maine coast was ravaged by these last two storms. Sorry for the thread drift.
Jim

[Tony Shea]

That Arbortech Turbo Plane is amazing! The fact that there is little to no chips is hard to believe with that tool. The mess a tool like that leaves behind is the primary reason I wouldn't use it, but if the dust collection is that good I really need to look at getting one.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, it really is that good and dust free. The dust chute can either be used with just a hose (which is supplied), as internally there is a little fan to push the dust down the hose, where it can be expelled into a box. Or use a vacuum cleaner, as I did, attached to the inlet. Google YouTube for a video.

Best of all, these are designed and manufactured here in Western Australia!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Andy, on the WoodHaven forum, left a message which was remarkably predictive of what I had planned to write.


For me, the interest is in the problem solving. To make a single chair, with all parts curved, would be a challenge. But to make a matching set, you are going to need a tight system of reference edges and surfaces, to be removed only when all shaping is complete. Your methods so far make sense - of course they do! - I just mean that it sometimes takes me a minute to catch up and see why you are making a part the way you are. I'll be happily admiring the rest of the build.



Andy, spot on! In fact, you preempted the very topic I planned to write.

Everything in furniture building requires forward planning. This is even more the case where, as here, these chairs have not been built before, do not come with plans, and are based on sketches I have made. One sees chair builds on YouTube where the Maker lays out a template, cuts it out, finishes it with a template router, and then starts glueing parts together. If only ...

When one looks at the chair design, attention is taken by the arms and back. Yet these are aspects which will be approached last. Far more important is the seat, since this creates the plan for the arms. But, building a seat like the one envisioned is complex as it has two shaped sides, a top side and a bottom. Most seats are carved only on the top, with the underside being left flat.

In addition, I have seen very few seats which are attached directly to the legs. Almost all rest on stretchers, with the stretchers morticed to the legs (e.g. The Chair). The latter is easier to construct as you build two sides, and then link them. With integrated tenons in the seat, one has to make allowance for the tenons, and these need to be cut at the correct angle before the underside of the seat can be shaped. The reason for this is that we need a flat reference edge to mark the tenon angles (which come from the drawing).

Here is the seat at the end of the last post ...

https://i.postimg.cc/m2ZCCNTW/CHH12.jpg

The underside is flat at this stage (being the reference sides), as are the sections where the tenons will project. But ...

While I am confident about the angle of the tenons, I want to be sure of this, and this requires that the legs be clamped to the ends of the seat at the angle predicted. The legs have been left flat - not yet rounded - as it is easier to add a mortice at this time.

So the next stage is to do just this, but I only have legs for one chair. As a result, work stopped to complete the other four legs. First, a section was cut off one of the 3m long (x 250mm wide x 50mm thick) Rock Maple boards (my wife helped me load this!).

Easier to crosscut on a MFT with a tracksaw than a tablesaw. Mine is a 20 year old Festool I purchased about a year ago in as-new condition.

https://i.postimg.cc/rmRKLkvq/Tools1.jpg

The section was re-sawn to 32mm and then planed to 30mm. Great tracking by the combination of a Hammer N4400 (which I have had for about 15 years) and a 1" Lenox Woodmaster CT blade ...

https://i.postimg.cc/jjFL9538/Tools2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/pdTmq8Ch/Tools3.jpg

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is less stressful to mark the legs with a template, bandsaw to the lines, and then use spokeshaves to clean up. Here are some of the spokeshaves I use ...

A Stanley #84 boxwood spokeshave excels in taking thick shavings. This is where I begin ...

https://i.postimg.cc/m2fFBPLJ/Tools4.jpg

Veritas make a copy of this in the form of their LA Spokeshave, and it is very good (I use one or the other, not both) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/RCnnk7Bw/Tools5.jpg

Many years ago I was gifted a flat and round spokeshave by Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon tools). It is a Malaysian/Asian design with a high cutting angle. This is my go-to if there is any reversing grain ...

https://i.postimg.cc/65r43BT3/Tools6.jpg

Lastly, the LN Boggs spokeshave takes very fine shavings and is used like a smoother to finish the surface ...

https://i.postimg.cc/BnN8TNTf/Tools7.jpg

Here are the completed leg blanks ..

https://i.postimg.cc/wj9yRnsk/Tools8.jpg

Tomorrow I will mark out the tenons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Kananis]

Derek, I'm enjoying watching along. Comment on that LV la shave. I have it and it's great... until it decides to let go of the blade. It really does excel at taking a chunk off, also on difficult grain and end grain but if you get a little too into the work or take too healthy of an amount of wood off, mine tends to pop the blade. Annoying.

[Derek Cohen]

John, here is the cutting side of the Veritas and Stanley ...

https://i.postimg.cc/j5Dv76HS/Stanley-spokeshave2-zpsm2m2yoj0.jpg

Both have mouth pieces which slide up-and-down.

The Stanley has a very secure fitting for the blade, but is fiddly to set up. The Veritas will fit securely - just! The blade needs to be made a little wider - and needs to be inserted square and evenly ... it is a lot less fiddle than the Stanley.

I would say the the Veritas does not clog quite as easily as the Stanley, but both are the same design - the shavings flow through the body - and both require frequent clearing of shavings, especially if these are on the thicker side.

Both are low angle and bevel up configurations, which makes them better for end grain and they do prefer straight grain. I like the balance of this design, which is due to their low centre of gravity. It is a reason I prefer shaves without adjusters - less mass up high.

The sole in front of the mouth should angle (3 degrees on my travishers), which enables the user to increase- or decrease the angle of attack, which changes the thickness of shaving. [edit to add: watch how you hold the angle - too much can cause the blade to dive).

If you are digging in with your Veritas, you might try a higher bevel angle (just like on the BU planes). Read the grain carefully. Change direction when indicated.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Especially after today, this build really feels like a step forward, a step sideways, and then a step forward again ... cha cha cha ..


I really do know where I am going, and what has to be done, even if it does not seem that way! :) Templates would have made the process easier.


So where are we up to? Well, it is the stage where the through mortices are made. We start with 8 legs ..


https://i.postimg.cc/6qZVBQH0/Legs1.jpg


The mortices will be made with a Domino ...


https://i.postimg.cc/sDF9wpX0/Legs1b.jpg


Then it gets a little complicated :


1. The legs are curved.
2. The mortices are cut half way from each side, and must be aligned well to meet in the centre.
3. The Domino can cut a maximum of 24mm width. The mortices are 30mm wide (by 10mm).


I have a guide for setting up the Domino to cut a specific size mortice width. This is for a 10mm x 24mm domino. Since the legs curve, the boundary lines for the mortice angle. The boundary lines cannot be dropped down on the vertical, so ...


First set the left side centre indicator ..


https://i.postimg.cc/1tnwKtZQ/Legs8.jpg


.. and then the right side indicator ...


https://i.postimg.cc/xdFLHmh5/Legs9.jpg


Two plunges of the Domino creates this ..


https://i.postimg.cc/Kc3DP9ZM/Legs1a.jpg


Repeat on the other side.


With all 8 legs morticed, I began to lay out the tenons.


All the legs are angled at 10 degrees towards the centre. This is prior to cutting the tenons ..


Rear leg ...


https://i.postimg.cc/pLJZ9pPc/Legs-10.jpg


Front leg ...


https://i.postimg.cc/bvYR1pJy/Legs-11.jpg


Here is the mock up with the plan/drawing in the background ...


https://i.postimg.cc/26VFXGhg/Legs-12.jpg


And a close up ..


https://i.postimg.cc/HxR4GMtn/Legs-13.jpg


A last photo for today - taken from the rear. The ears represent the stock for the tenons ...


https://i.postimg.cc/8CymH9Jh/Legs-14.jpg


Tomorrow the tenons will be cut, and then we can get back to shaping the seats.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Time to saw the tenons.


I have gone back-and-forth on doing it this way. I can understand why so many builds use loose tenon joinery. Simply, it is easier to do so than creating integral tenons. It also makes it possible to shape the seat fully separately, especially the perimeter. The seats here have been roughly cut to shape, and only the top partially sculpted. It has been a very round-about way of building ... more steps that could have been avoided.


So why build this way? Well, I want integral tenons as they will be stronger than loose tenons. It is also difficult to rout the mortices in the edge of the seat owing to the awkward angles involved. Lastly, adding mortices may not be possible owing to the reduced depth of the sculpting.


The tenons are not straight-forward as they angle inward at 10 degrees, creating compound angles, as will be seen shortly ...


https://i.postimg.cc/xj7MtfB6/T1.jpg


Using a template for 10 degrees, the angles for the tenons were plotted on the ears ..


https://i.postimg.cc/gkZR59Wm/T2.jpg


Dividers are used to mark the 10mm width ..


https://i.postimg.cc/JzCJCTrJ/T3.jpg


There is also a 10 degree splay angle to add ...


https://i.postimg.cc/76hJnd9v/T5.jpg


At this stage my spatial-ability challenge came to the fore and I was in over-load with angles. Marking out the angles on the reverse side gave me the biggest headache, and I came so close to accepting loose tenon joinery!


I decided that loose tenon was always a backup, and so just go for it. The saw used is a 16" Wenzloff & Sons tenon saw (10 tpi rip). It is a HUGE saw, but worked really well here with its aggressive cut.


https://i.postimg.cc/FR6dWpCY/T6.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/zfJgVVRG/T7.jpg


Cutting to the line, which left just a smidgeon of waste.


Waste removed with a Ryoba ...


https://i.postimg.cc/TPCWmfrq/T8.jpg


All tenons cut ...


https://i.postimg.cc/y8hR1FxG/T9.jpg


I checked several and all were on the money at 10 degrees. I'm a happy camper ...


https://i.postimg.cc/NFryWXZp/T10.jpg


Eight tenons and eight mortices ...


https://i.postimg.cc/V5QS1681/T11.jpg


Next on the agenda: rasp the perimeter to shape, finish the tenons while there is still a flat reference (under) side, and then shape the underside of the seat.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Wow!

jtk

[lou Brava]

To the Bonehead who posted about buying & production has a very narrow minded view but that's his problem.
Derek, thanks for posting up your chair builds, seeing some of your work in progress has given me ideas & direction on how to solve some basic chair construction. I also appreciate the full size drawings and design work. I haven't done a full size plan in over 40 years ! Right now I'm slugging my through a bent lamination bench, a full size drawing would have saved a lot of head scratching over the work bench !
Anyway carry on & looking forward to seeing how your chairs progress.

[Tony Shea]

Very cool to see this one. Great work as always Derek.

I am very jealous of the HNT Gordon spokeshave you have. I own a flat and curved sole HNT Gordon which are amazing, but they are the narrower soled versions. I feel like the wide sole version you have would be amazing to fair gentle curves. Any idea why he doesn't make the version you have anymore? Again, I really do love my 2 HNT's but I'm a bit of a spokeshave junky. I have the Boggs LN curved and flat, Veritas curved and flat, small bronze LN curved and flat, Caleb James low angle, and the HNT curved and flat. And I use all of them as each one excels at a slightly different task. I agree the Boggs LN shaves are amazing as the last shave for smoothing.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

I do not know why Terry stopped making the wide spokeshaves. However they are amazingly good - like small, high angle planes. The grain direction does not bother them. Being large, however, means that they do not fit in smaller spaces.

I have written some notes on the Veritas LA in the next post. It is a magnificent spokeshave (which used appropriately).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

We ended up last time with the sides cleaned up and the tenons cut to angle ...


https://i.postimg.cc/V5QS1681/T11.jpg


The tenons were now sized to correct width ...


https://i.postimg.cc/qMpqjF4Z/TT2.jpg


... pared ...


https://i.postimg.cc/cCSCq9YC/TT3.jpg


.. and rasped to width ..


https://i.postimg.cc/0Nhrn2yp/TT4.jpg


I made a template to ensure each would later be a tight fit ...


https://i.postimg.cc/P5RqfrZB/TT6.jpg


So now we have two chair blanks with a semi-shaped outline, a profiled upper side and four sized tenons ...


https://i.postimg.cc/pd5LmbJy/TT7.jpg


Now it was back into the router sled to shape the underside, which was to curve in parallel to the upper side ...


https://i.postimg.cc/3RMJpSt1/TT8.jpg


The result was two of these, after some cleaning up with a jack plane ...


https://i.postimg.cc/prC2w2Rc/TT12X.jpg


Time to give the seats their final plan shape. The seats were flipped over ..


https://i.postimg.cc/G3xh8jGP/TT13.jpg


And a template used to mark the new rear curve ..


https://i.postimg.cc/J477bB5f/TT14.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/9Fxm1Fxr/TT15.jpg


One of the problems photographing this Rock Maple is that the light colour does not show details particularly well. Especially the seat hollows and internal curves. In addition to the upper curve, the seat is hollowed out to a depth of 18mm.


https://i.postimg.cc/q7Kpkcp3/TT19.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/cCBHdRMm/TT21.jpg


Nothing to see here. But ... from the sides ... one then the other ...


https://i.postimg.cc/T3wwXWyV/TT22.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/2jQ3dYRZ/TT23.jpg


Note that the carved seat adds a 4 degree slope to the seat, which is what is in the design (however the original drawings missed it coming from carving seat, and adjustments had to be made).

[Derek Cohen]

We are closing in on the last lap for the seats - well, next to last lap (it seems to go on forever!). The undersides need to be shaped to remove the bulk (which was needed for the tenons), and create a sleeker presentation. Back to the Arbortech carver to remove the waste ...


https://i.postimg.cc/XvPP0Bzh/TT24.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/TYvZwm3v/TT25.jpg


I frankly do not know how many hours this saved if I had been using hand tools. I did try a razor sharp drawknife, and the Rock Maple laughed at it. The Arbortech is terrific. It does take a little while to get the feel for gentle carving, as it can run away from you if you carve with a climb cut.


Spokeshaves next, and the Veritas LA does a magic job ...


https://i.postimg.cc/dVqpRYCW/TT25-1.jpg


To get the best out of this spokeshave (since many described it "diving" into the wood), it is important to understand that the toe is curved 4 degrees from the mouth (as is the Stanley). Think of this in the same way one uses a travisher, which has a similar toe: The angled mouth acts to open or close the mouth. Set the blade and then adjust the depth of cut when using the body - toe down and it cuts a fine shaving, pressure on heel and the shaving is thicker. I suspect that "diving" occurs when the shaving is thicker, and attention is not given to grain direction.


The tenons are at the centre of the design. The seats started out at 50mm thick. They are down to 35mm at the centre, and will end up about 15mm thick at the surrounds. However the tenons must end up 30mm high.


Here the tenons are being "extended" from the seat, with two saw cuts ...


https://i.postimg.cc/NjpVpz7Q/TT26.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/jj2194ZP/TT27.jpg


The spokeshaving of the first seat is done, and alongside an unfinished seat for comparison ...


https://i.postimg.cc/QCGnFGsJ/TT28.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/L6kGZXJY/TT29.jpg


Working on the second seat at the close of the day ...


https://i.postimg.cc/vTr29qZF/TT30.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Ritter]

Making good progress Derek. It’s wonderful seeing how all this comes together.
Jim

[Tony Shea]

Derek, do you sharpen the LV low angle spokeshave at a higher angle to prevent chip out? Or do you just hold the shave at the correct cutting angle using the sole to do this? I have the Caleb James spokeshave that uses a similar theory of operation, but I still struggle a bit in hardwood planing with the grain. Using that shave on end grain cuts is where it really shines, taking cuts with the grain in temperamental hardwoods can give me some tear out.

[Derek Cohen]

I fitted the legs then decided that the seats made were not good enough. There was run out at the tenons which placed them at risk or breakage. So ... deep breath ... they are canned. The tenons will be re-made with loose tenon stock, where I can control the grain durection.

Sometimes it is an ill-wind that blows good. I am now rather pleased I am remaking the seats as I have found better info on the original chair, and details of the seat design. I have the legs right but not the seat.


In the mock up at the factory, the seat was screwed to the legs, but the final version used mortice-and-tenon. These joints are made very solid by a great deal of supporting mass around them. I plan to make the joints loose tenons for extra strength, but try and follow the original design in this regard. (At this stage it is a toss up whether I copy the arms or go with a design I think is more elegant).


Here is a video I found of the build:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yLS-aoBXNI&ab_channel=yasuhiromurai



https://i.postimg.cc/tC0DNbXV/Chair-set1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XX8wnTBV)


The chairs are sold in Oz for $3600 each.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[David Carroll]

That's a tough decision, but likely correct. Do you need to start over with the seats? Or can you just saw off the tenons and mortise the seats for the floating tenons?

I have been faced with similar predicaments, where instinctively I knew that some part was wrong and that it should be done over, but lamented the investment in time already made, so pressed on. But then you must make accommodation after accommodation. Remaking the part(s) is usually the best plan.

DC

[Derek Cohen]

David, the seats will be re-made from scratch. The original seats look like this. Note that how the area around the tenon is reinforced.

https://i.postimg.cc/wxtqy7QH/Chair-seat10.jpg (https://postimg.cc/hhBWN4Y3)

https://i.postimg.cc/SxSH9Pb8/Chair-seat5.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QHz6G0tx)


Edit to add: just to be clear, the chairs I am building take elements from the DC09 chairs, designed by Scandinavian–Japanese duo Inoda + Sveje in 2011. Without a real model, it is impossible to get that close. I have built an exact replica before, Hans Weger's The Chair, but I had an original to work with. Now all I have are photos. So I am taking a little license here and there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lou Brava]

I fitted the legs then decided that the seats made were not good enough. There was run out at the tenons which placed them at risk or breakage. So ... deep breath ... they are canned. The tenons will be re-made with loose tenon stock, where I can control the grain durection.

Sometimes it is an ill-wind that blows good. I am now rather pleased I am remaking the seats as I have found better info on the original chair, and details of the seat design. I have the legs right but not the seat.


In the mock up at the factory, the seat was screwed to the legs, but the final version used mortice-and-tenon. These joints are made very solid by a great deal of supporting mass around them. I plan to make the joints loose tenons for extra strength, but try and follow the original design in this regard. (At this stage it is a toss up whether I copy the arms or go with a design I think is more elegant).


Here is a video I found of the build:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yLS-aoBXNI&ab_channel=yasuhiromurai



https://i.postimg.cc/tC0DNbXV/Chair-set1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XX8wnTBV)


The chairs are sold in Oz for $3600 each.


Regards from Perth


Derek

Been enjoying the thread & was wondering (and didn't want ask) if you tracked your hours on the build. Because I just finished a bent laminated chair/bench build & it took me way way longer than I figured. Now seeing these chairs at 3.6K each tells me a lot !
Also I ran into more than a few problem solving issues along the way in the joinery/strength dept. I ended up with loose tenons.
Looking forward to seeing the finished chairs !

[Derek Cohen]

Iou, I only very loosely track my hours. Results are very relevant, but so is the journey of discovery and the problem-solving. It is not a race - which is why I am prepared to re-do the seats.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Another video of the DC09 chair by the Scandinavian–Japanese duo Inoda + Sveje in 2011.



https://vimeo.com/438408781



Regards from Perth



Derek