1932 Steinway brown????

[Tom M King]

We have a 1932 Steinway M that I'm starting to work on. I need to replace a couple of pieces of veneer. Broken leftover pieces that came off of it were identified as Cuban Mahogany. I have some Cuban Mahogany veneer to replace those parts with, but have never done this kind of finish before.

I think it's just what they called "Brown". It's a mostly opaque, thick finish that polishes to a high gloss. The wood grain can just barely be seen through it.

I have enough of the veneer to do a bunch of test pieces, but if anyone has any idea or guesses from experience, I will appreciate the advice.

Waiting for a picture to go from my phone to computer.

The piano is otherwise a pretty remarkable example. We bought it from the original owner in the early 1980s that had to move into a nursing home. It's always lived in ideal controlled environments. Her husband was an architect and gave it to her for a wedding present. There is no damage to any of the ebony or real ivory keys, and no sign of any crack in the soundboard even.

We don't play. Our Son does, but he has other pianos and keyboards. This one hasn't been used any other than keeping it in tune for several decades.

[Tom M King]

This is before any polishing or cleaning.

[roger wiegand]

Here's a lot of information about Steinway's finishing process. As you'll see, there are a lot of variables and different processes depending on the exact wood and piano model. A good match may well require a highly experienced refinisher. Most folks don't try repairing the finishes on pianos that old, but rather go for a strip and refinish on the whole piano instead. Sneaking up on the desired color with a range of redder and greener toner coats over a lighter dye that comes close might be your best bet.

https://pianotuner.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/chp7.pdf

[Mel Fulks]

Cuban mahogany , that’s the really hard to get stuff. Everybody wanted a piece of it. Real grab -fest . . . then it was gone ! I bought a nice one inch plus piece about 1970. Had a note on it saying “ this was bought 40 years ago” . The early finishes for fine Mahogany
was usually just oil …of some kind. Then waxed often. They also mixed in plaster dust as a filler for mahogany.

[Tom M King]

Thanks Roger. I had found that, but was wondering if anyone had ever been through the process.

Cuban Mahogany veneer is not that hard to find, but I expect any "lumber" would be. I've had the pieces to redo these spots for decades but am just getting to it now because we don't use it, and need the space for another use.

I think it would really be something if carefully stripped and refinished, but I'm allergic to Mahogany and don't want to get into that. I do plan to repair the finish and polish it.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Frank Hennessy, a piano expert in our town, explained to me that faux painting was part of Steinways process. Mr. Hennessy told about visiting Steinway and seeing Mahogany pianos starting out the finishing process by being painted beige.

[John TenEyck]

This is before any polishing or cleaning.

This is a mahogany table I refinished.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ABLVV85f5c42BqmxINQjXc9RrpdwBT5B2kmq5e7-rogLYaO1SjA0hk0LwZwSg0D9KKw6IC7TYpIGz4Ol3SHWxea0KV jDyuMuD1ASC-5F8bgi2fuh87xcXCJBCgJyCvBR4tFody3ZEBr_6uBBEYYSc3Kl Fe_xtw=w664-h885-s-no?authuser=1


Of course the grain is not filled, as it would be on your piano, but the point here is that you can get nearly any color you want, including very dark ones. I used SW's BAC wiping stain. I started with a stock color, but had them doctor it at least twice, and then added more dye on my own until I finally got color and opacity right. Grain filler, dye, stain, toners, glazes, may all play into getting it right. Any documentation of how Steinway finished it would of course be very helpful, but I'll bet it can be done regardless. A good eye, patience, persistence, and really good notes on the samples you make will get you there.

John

[Tom M King]

Thanks John. Notes are a good idea. It's been a long time since I tried to match anything, but it's coming back to me now. It's far from my favorite thing to do, but my Wife is pretty good at it. She's not one for making notes though, so I'm glad you mentioned that. At least the parts that need it aren't a part of another surface, but the whole ends of those parts you see in the picture where the veneer is missing. The rest of it is in pretty remarkable shape.

[John TenEyck]

The type of mahogany you use is likely irrelevant as long as the grain structure is similar. It's going to be colored so dark that the base color won't matter other than it will impact the choice of dyes, etc. that you use. But since you have no starting recipe, it doesn't matter.

John

[Tom M King]

I have some old leftover pieces of Honduran Mahogany veneer that we plan to use for the first test samples before trying it on the Cuban. We're going to try the many leftover various stains we already have before ordering anything else.

[Tom M King]

Here is a picture of it with the Sun shining on it, so you can see it's not like a layer of paint. This might be the first time the Sun has ever shined on it. In the house it came from first, and in our house, it was always protected from the Sun. Sorry that I didn't bother to turn the picture upright for here, but it should serve this purpose.

[John TenEyck]

That looks like dye or stain will get you there w/o too much difficulty. I'd be looking at dye first. It's surprising how matte the finish looks. I would have expected high gloss. Maybe it's just the angle you took the photo at?

That color is light enough that the underlying color of the wood is going to effect the outcome. You can practice on something else, but definitely make samples on the same veneer you intend to use because I suspect you will have to adjust it.

John

[Tom M King]

I think it's just a layer of dust clinging to it. It's had old cotton quilts covering it for 30 years. It's gloss where it's been cleaned to see.

[Keith Pitman]

It might be useful to contact Steinway to see if they have suggestions. A vintage Steinway is bound to have significant value and restoring it would only enhance the value, especially if done in a value-sensitive manner.

[Tom M King]

I've studied on it some. As it is, it's value is only as a carcass to rebuild and is worth about 6k as it sits. New this size is around 70. Restored with a well built action it will be worth around 30. Steinway doesn't rebuild actions, but just puts a whole new action in. These days there a composite actions sold that play the same as the wood and felt actions, but last longer and are more consistent. I'm thinking about rebuilding the action myself and putting everything new in it, including strings. All the parts will cost about 6k.

My Wife justs wants to sell it because we have another use for the space it's been taking up, but after looking into it I really want to rebuild the action myself with the carbon fiber parts.

[roger wiegand]

As a sometime piano and organ rebuilder I've seen many substitutions of modern space age materials for the traditional wood, leather, and felt over the years. They have almost invariably failed, and frequently make it way harder for the next guy, as removal of the latest space-age goop so you can rebuild a piece adds many "happy" hours to the project. You really learn that hot hide glue is your friend after rebuilding a few instruments!

I'm not saying there is no role for modern materials, just a warning to test extensively. It would require incredible care in design to start swapping carbon fiber for wood and maintain the tone and feel. I'd very much want to play an identical instrument on which such a restoration had been done to see whether or not it works. In a new piano, designed from the ground up with those parts, I'm sure it's possible to build a good instrument. As a retrofit I'd withhold judgement.

Rebuilding a piano can be a fun and rewarding, if tedious project (you get to do a lot of things 88 times). There are parts that are going to present a serious learning curve. Having a skilled and patient mentor will help a lot. Recrowning a soundboard and fitting bridges is not best learned by watching youtube, nor is the voicing of new hammers. (I still regard both of those things as being beyond my current knowledge/skills)

The traditional materials will give you an instrument good for another 50+ years of use; to me that seems pretty reasonable. Just because Steinway can't profitably rebuild an old action doesn't mean that you can't, the economics are different.

[Tom M King]

Some will always cking to traditional materials. Steinway usage Renner actions and bought the company in 2019.

The company making the composite components is owned by mason & Hamlin. Their new pianos use these HMG components

I’ve done what reading on piano technician forums there are. There were some design issues with these space age components in the early stages around 2012, but have been solved by now. The main problem was trying to use Teflon bushings in wood parts. As they have gone away from those wooden parts, those issues have gone away.

There are good choices both with wooden parts and felt gaskets, and space age parts. I have done my research and chose space age. Some buyers will prefer one over the other. I’m not worried about that one way or the other. A grand action can be just slid out of the piano and exchanged with another one.

I asked here about staining those small pieces of veneer. I don’t care to get opinions on one type of action over the other.

[Tom M King]

We only had a couple of bottles of transtint dye. I ordered the dark kit and primary kit of 2 oz. Bottles from Homestead to experiment with to start with.

Word has gotten out that we will have this piano for sale and already have had some inquiries just all by word of mouth.

Comparing some veneer pieces I have, it looks closer to Brazilian Rosewood than to Cuban Mahogany. The Cuban Mahogany doesn't have the dark color variations in it like the Brazilan Rosewood veneer and the piano have. I forget who I had look at the little pieces of veneer that were falling of those ear places, so nothing much to favor that diagnosis. We don't remember the lady we bought it from saying anything about what type of wood. I'll call Steinway next week to see if they know anything according to the serial number.

This finish on it is too thick to be able to tell much about the pore structure. What may look like pores in that picture is really just surface crazing in the finish and dust on the surface. We haven't touched it other than taking the old cotton quilts off of it.

[Tom M King]

If anyone is interested about the carbon fiber action parts, and not just take Roger's view that they are simply bad, here are a few videos. One of these by the company that sells the parts made me decide right off that I could do a better job. I won't be using sandpaper discs on die grinders or heat guns to twist carbon fiber shafts.

I have no desire to discuss anything about the differences between actions here, so this is just in case anyone is curious. One of my scientist friends sent me these, as well as others but these will give you an idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7SGhb5qrEI&t=568s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRvtUGDHJ8&t=105s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvHq-xFNbm4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjPD8Tbvu6c

[roger wiegand]

If anyone is interested about the carbon fiber action parts, and not just take Roger's view that they are simply bad,

I most assuredly did not say that. I said to test them in your application to be sure that they function appropriately in a piano not designed for them.

[Tom M King]

Playing around with this piano finish this morning, whatever is on it is pretty soft. It has very small crazing all over it. It will polish out to a high gloss, but is very easy to burn and curdle the surface with automotive polishes. Also, my variable speed buffers are trigger control without speed knobs, so they make it too easy to put too much heat into the surface.

So far, I'm only working with the inside of a leg, where any goofs won't show too much. I'm tempted to buy a Rupes high end buffer, but also just tempted to clean it up and sell it like it is. We can tune it and clean it up with not too many hours required, but my to-do list is just way to long to put this ahead of everything else I have to do.

We have some type of piano cleaner and polish in one, that does pretty good, but it's hard to get a consistant shine over a whole area with it.

The wood looks great after polishing. If anyone has worked with whatever this type of 92 year old piano finish is, and has some ideas, they would be appreciated.

[Mel Fulks]

The best bowed string instruments have always had soft finishes. I’m guessing that goes for old pianos, but not for ‘modern ones’.