Trying CS method on my table top

[Tony Wilkins]

https://youtu.be/zHvDd8wJVoY?si=waUSFkzJWhLZ7--7

now that it’s all glue up, I’m using the method Schwarz talks about in the hand plane essential book/Woodwright Shop episode (at least as far as I remember it). I did use a scrub on some higher lips between boards I glued up (size differences plus some bow). Now I’m working down with a foreplane (or a #4 with an 8” radius blade in my case)*.
512335512336512337

[Eric Brown]

Looking good so far. Looks like a big table.

[Tony Wilkins]

Looking good so far. Looks like a big table.
84” by 36 5/8”

[Scott Winners]

I agree with Eric, looking good Tony.

[Frederick Skelly]

Lotta hard work there. Looking good Tony.

[Dave Anderson NH]

With the amount of calories burned doing that by hand you are now entitled to an extra ration of Christmas cookies and candies. :D Looking good Tony.

[Tony Wilkins]

https://youtube.com/shorts/TtA0xqEPFhg?si=9x54IcU2f6rbuwos

started catty corner with long planes…
512395

[Warren Mickley]

You would use a lot less calories if you would avoid rough planing the low spots. Planing the low spots cross grain not only makes them lower, it leaves a torn surface that has to be made even lower in order to eliminate the damage.

[Tony Wilkins]

You would use a lot less calories if you would avoid rough planing the low spots. Planing the low spots cross grain not only makes them lower, it leaves a torn surface that has to be made even lower in order to eliminate the damage.
I’m trying to stop when I get an even shaving. Please elaborate on what you mean.

[Tom M King]

Don't think about even shavings. Just take off the high spots. Lay something across it so you can see where the high and low spots are. If you take anything off of the low spots you have to bring the whole thing down to that new lowest level.

Here's a video I made some years back flattening shutter panels. They didn't need to be as flat as a piece of furniture. Going on an 1850 museum house, it was better that they weren't perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SED7B65cppM

[Warren Mickley]

I’m trying to stop when I get an even shaving. Please elaborate on what you mean.

A plane does not automatically flatten a board. You have to find the high spots and plane them and find the low spots and avoid them. For example if a panel has two low corners and you plane diagonally from low to low, you can take off a continuous shaving and lower the very places that are already too low.

Planing the entire surface, low spots and all, wastes time and energy, and it wastes material too, because it limits even more how much thickness you are left with after truing a board.

[Tony Wilkins]

A plane does not automatically flatten a board. You have to find the high spots and plane them and find the low spots and avoid them. For example if a panel has two low corners and you plane diagonally from low to low, you can take off a continuous shaving and lower the very places that are already too low.

Planing the entire surface, low spots and all, wastes time and energy, and it wastes material too, because it limits even more how much thickness you are left with after truing a board.
But I’m using the length of the #7 to bridge the high spots so it’s not taking a full shaving until I’ve knocked those down. And I’m not really even getting quite to the point of a full shaving when I stop.

[Warren Mickley]

But I’m using the length of the #7 to bridge the high spots so it’s not taking a full shaving until I’ve knocked those down. And I’m not really even getting quite to the point of a full shaving when I stop.

At the ends of the panel you are not "bridging" anything. The same is true of the edges if are planing diagonally or cross grain.

If you can't bring yourself to use straight edges and winding sticks to ascertain the high spots, your progress will be slow.

[Stew Denton]

Tony,

It's looking good. Nice lumber too. I can't tell the type of lumber from the photos, what is the lumber you are using?

Stew

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony,

It's looking good. Nice lumber too. I can't tell the type of lumber from the photos, what is the lumber you are using?

Stew
It’s walnut

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, I agree with Warren and Tom. Even using a #7 is not going to flatten a panel which has a curve. The length of the #7 is relative, and it will continue to follow the curve.

You need to start with a straight edge and chalk the high spots. Then you take those down. You do not plane anywhere else, just the high spots. Once they are level, then you plane to bring all down to the valleys that remain. Keep in mind that you also need to be maintaining coplanar, hence winding sticks.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

I have heard stories, folklore really, of men actually using these things we call planes to surface wooden objects/panels: I had dismissed these stories as they sounded so incredible: who in their right mind would even attempt such a task? Were these shiny planes not really meant to sit on a shelf and be admired by laptop woodworkers? Your post seems heretical: I must now deal with the possibility that all the fanciful stories from days of yore
might actually be true: you can use hand planes to surface wood. Will life ever be the same again? :p

Seriously: nice work!!!



https://youtu.be/zHvDd8wJVoY?si=waUSFkzJWhLZ7--7

now that it’s all glue up, I’m using the method Schwarz talks about in the hand plane essential book/Woodwright Shop episode (at least as far as I remember it). I did use a scrub on some higher lips between boards I glued up (size differences plus some bow). Now I’m working down with a foreplane (or a #4 with an 8” radius blade in my case)*.
512335512336512337

[Rafael Herrera]

If you're referring to the youtube video of CS flattening an already flat board, it's not a great guide.

First you need to assess how out of flat your board is and the use the proper planes to remove the undesired material. Peter Nicholson's Mechanical Exercises gives you much better guidelines.

https://archive.org/details/PeterNicholson1812/page/n237/mode/1up

[Tony Wilkins]

If you're referring to the youtube video of CS flattening an already flat board, it's not a great guide.

First you need to assess how out of flat your board is and the use the proper planes to remove the undesired material. Peter Nicholson's Mechanical Exercises gives you much better guidelines.

https://archive.org/details/PeterNicholson1812/page/n237/mode/1up

I’m using it as a guideline. I first used a scrub across the grain to lower the highest edges. Then I traversed with a #4 with an 8” radius blade. Now I’m working diagonal with the #7. I have to say that so far it’s working well to bring down the high spots. I may end up doing the hunt and straight edge before it’s done. This is more or less an experiment to see how it works. If a board is basically flat I have had good luck with Charlesworth’s method to fine tune. This is really the first time I’ve started with rough sawn.

[Tom M King]

That's a pretty big jump in shaving sizes. In that video, I start with two different no.6's. I think the first one takes shavings about .015 and the second one about half that. The no.4 in the video probably about .0025. My no.7 is set to take less than that no.4. Since that hump you see in the start of that video is fairly small, there was really no need to start with a plane that takes a thicker shaving. All these are cambered blades.

[Rafael Herrera]

I’m using it as a guideline. I first used a scrub across the grain to lower the highest edges. Then I traversed with a #4 with an 8” radius blade. Now I’m working diagonal with the #7. I have to say that so far it’s working well to bring down the high spots. I may end up doing the hunt and straight edge before it’s done. This is more or less an experiment to see how it works. If a board is basically flat I have had good luck with Charlesworth’s method to fine tune. This is really the first time I’ve started with rough sawn.

I admire your willingness to share your progress. I also tried several methods and spent a great deal of effort learning how to flatten a board by hand. I think as you gain experience you'll figure out how heavily your irons need to be cambered to get the lumber cleaned up with the least amount of effort. That's the key, the least amount of effort, not out of laziness but with the aim to efficiency.

The next step is the smoothing of the table top and tear out is going to raise its ugly head. Set up your planes, not just the smoother, with the chip breaker close to the edge to mitigate/minimize tear out in all the final stages of planing.

If you get tear out, set the cb closer and try again.

[Tony Wilkins]

I read an article recently about the chip breaker. I moved them up on both my #4 & #7. I’m actually surprised how easily it;s going. It’s multiple days but I can only stand to do it about 10-15 minutes at a time. There’s about 30-35 minutes in this side of the top so far.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, Rafael's comment made me aware that I am remiss if I do not state as clearly as possible that I admire you for presenting yourself as openly as you do. For me, this is the very essence of a forum: to create discussion and critique with the purpose of learning. Those who remain silent, or simply post a completed work, are missing out hugely! There is such a diffence between show (only) and show-and-tell. Keep up what you are doing!

Now to the critique. My opinion here ...

When we start out with hand tools, we are so conscious about the tools and using them effectively, that we fail to focus on how to build. Jointing and flattening surfaces are less about the tools and more about the technique. Forget the tools and focus on the work, here the table top. The aim is to create a flat and coplanar surface.

First take note of the high and low areas. Use a straight edge and winding sticks. These areas are treated differently, which means you plane them in a specific sequence. Bring the high spots down. Create a coplanar area. The hand planes you use to do this are not important at this stage. We are simply looking at priorities.

Only once you have planned your attack do you choose your weapons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Scott Winners]

Tony, I agree with many of the above. I got a Tshirt that says "forgot to use chalk and a straight edge on this one board that one time." You don't want the T shirt on a project of this size.

[steven c newman]

Did anyone ever watch how Ishitani flattened his tabletops? Didn't think so...

[Rob Luter]

Don't think about even shavings. Just take off the high spots. Lay something across it so you can see where the high and low spots are. If you take anything off of the low spots you have to bring the whole thing down to that new lowest level.

Here's a video I made some years back flattening shutter panels. They didn't need to be as flat as a piece of furniture. Going on an 1850 museum house, it was better that they weren't perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SED7B65cppM

Is the video supposed to have sound?

[Derek Cohen]

Did anyone ever watch how Ishitani flattened his tabletops? Didn't think so...

Steven, Ishitani is not a good example - I enjoy watching him, but he is not a hand tool woodworker.

What he does is use a power jointer first, followed by a thickness/planer, and then glues all together, aligning the boards with biscuits. Everything is nice and coplanar at this stage.

Then he makes out like he is a hand tool user by planing the top. There is no special skill needed at this point ... nothing to flatten. I wouldn't say that it is all for show - planing is preferred to sanding - but to mention Ishitani as a model for hand tool use is just wrong.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

So...did you happen to see WHAT he uses as a "straightedge"to check for flat on that large table...give ya a hint...a STRAIGHT 2 x 4 standing on edge..

As for my table top checking..due to the lengths I work with...a 36" Tinner's Ruler, standing on it's steel edge...

Whether one is a "Hand tool only" or a Power tool only woodworker...they still need a reliable way to check for flatness of a panel...OR, a jointed edge being straight.

Sometimes....even just the old MK2 MOD 4 Eyeball works....and ones hand going across a surface....as a client will only have those to check on one's work...Happy client, full pocketbook.

Try joining two( yes 2) live edge planks together at the live edges....Biscuits? Nah..Butterflies...

Not wrong...all depends on one's point of view....sometimes looking down one's nose from the Balcony of their Ivory Tower, the nose blocks the view of other's working habits.

[Tom M King]

Is the video supposed to have sound?

It was supposed to, but it was the first video I ever made, and I forgot to turn the sound on. I was talking the whole time. I ended up selling that video camera. Trying to take a video while working just slowed me up. I get paid to produce work, and it wasn't fair to the people paying me to use the extra time fiddling with camera and lighting setup.

[Tony Wilkins]

So, winding sticks. Mine are about 18” if I recall. Whatever they are, well short of 37” wide. Should I put together a longer set? How long do they need to be to reliably show twist?

Plan b would be to use my two LV aluminum straight edges (50” & 38”?) and put blue tape on the top corners of the longer to use. Would that work?

[steven c newman]

Have you got a couple 4' levels in the shop? maybe in different colours?

All winding sticks will tell you is...that there is a twist going on down the length of the panel...

Place a 4' level on it's edge with a bright light behind it....look between the surface and the bottom edge of the level...where the light shines through, THAT is the LOW spots...work your way from one end to the other end..and however you wish to mark any high spots, do so....wherever the level touches is the high spots...go until the bright light ( at the end of the tunnel) no longer shows through...

[mike stenson]

Twist is the one thing a level or a string won't tell you.

My winding sticks are about 60mm/24"

[steven c newman]

Didn't READ that comment fully enough to understand it, did you?

Told the OP to use a PAIR OF 4' LEVELS , one on each end, with a bright light behind the one on the far end of the panel...

As the OP stated he did not HAVE long enough winding sticks.....

24" winding sticks would be about 12" too short, and ....useless for the OP.....


Twist is the ONE thing a pair of winding sticks are good at.....and who said a bloody thing about a string?

[Tony Wilkins]

Didn't READ that comment fully enough to understand it, did you?

Told the OP to use a PAIR OF 4' LEVELS , one on each end, with a bright light behind the one on the far end of the panel...

As the OP stated he did not HAVE long enough winding sticks.....

24" winding sticks would be about 12" too short, and ....useless for the OP.....


Twist is the ONE thing a pair of winding sticks are good at.....and who said a bloody thing about a string?

‘I only have one longer level and I’m not sure if it’s 4’ (and it’s been through 5 army moves so Lord knows if it’s accurate as a level any more).

[steven c newman]

Maybe get a second one, in a contrasting colour?

[Tony Wilkins]

Maybe get a second one, in a contrasting colour?
I could do that. Would that be better than riving out some straight gain stock and making a pair?

[Rafael Herrera]

Steven is recommending using two 4' levels as winding sticks. They are of uniform width so they'll work fine as winding sticks, even as straight edges, not as levels per se.

[Tony Wilkins]

Steven is recommending using two 4' levels as winding sticks. They are of uniform width so they'll work fine as winding sticks, even as straight edges, not as levels per se.
I understand. It is an easy solution for longer straight edges. If I need two, looks like it would be about $50 on Amazon.

[Derek Cohen]

So, winding sticks. Mine are about 18” if I recall. Whatever they are, well short of 37” wide. Should I put together a longer set? How long do they need to be to reliably show twist?

Plan b would be to use my two LV aluminum straight edges (50” & 38”?) and put blue tape on the top corners of the longer to use. Would that work?

Tony, that should work well.

Remember that you also site for twist progressively down (or up) the panel, taking readings along the way.

Mark and remove the high spots.

Drink plenty of eggnog :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

512634Thanks for posting this big table flattening by hand Tony. It is fun to follow. When is Warren going to schedule a day to demonstrate his techniques? - nothing like an in person demonstration. Many of us are not far away - I will barter a nice all heartwood cherry board. Tony, I am working on the end grain of my board and find standing on a platform gives me the best position, allowing me to use the weight of the plane. You may consider doing the same.

[steven c newman]

Simple..walk into Lowes or Home Depot tomorrow...buy a colourful 4' level that contrasts to the one you have. Easy as can be.

[Tony Wilkins]

512634Thanks for posting this big table flattening by hand Tony. It is fun to follow. When is Warren going to schedule a day to demonstrate his techniques? - nothing like an in person demonstration. Many of us are not far away - I will barter a nice all heartwood cherry board. Tony, I am working on the end grain of my board and find standing on a platform gives me the best position, allowing me to use the weight of the plane. You may consider doing the same.
One good thing about breadboards, I don’t have to smooth/overly flatten the ends.

[mike stenson]

I've, literally, used two pieces of MDF cut on a tablesaw.


A hell of a lot cheaper than buying levels you don't need. This forum makes all of this so much harder than it needs to be.

[Tom M King]

I've never bought anything to use for them, and don't even bother to keep any. If I don't have something laying around that will work, I just make some out of scrap. These in the video were just leftover scraps of roof purlins for Cypress shingles on that job. They were already straight, but if they weren't there is a jointer and tablesaw right there. I was working in the temporary shop setup in the daylight basement of that museum house. My little bench was clamped to the tablesaw for mass.

[Brian Hale]

Hey Toni. The walnut top I'm working on is smaller than yours but doing basically the same process. Not sure if it was mentioned before but I never leave something this size laying flat on the bench overnight as I've had a couple twist, particularly as I get closer to both sides being flat. This batch of wood is what I call Urban Lumber since it came from my neighbors front yard next to the street and even after slow drying for ~2 years it would move after initial machining.

Brian512638

[Tony Wilkins]

Hey Toni. The walnut top I'm working on is smaller than yours but doing basically the same process. Not sure if it was mentioned before but I never leave something this size laying flat on the bench overnight as I've had a couple twist, particularly as I get closer to both sides being flat. This batch of wood is what I call Urban Lumber since it came from my neighbors front yard next to the street and even after slow drying for ~2 years it would move after initial machining.

Brian512638

So far, so good. Unfortunately I can’t move it without help so it will have to stay put for a bit.

[Tony Wilkins]

I've never bought anything to use for them, and don't even bother to keep any. If I don't have something laying around that will work, I just make some out of scrap. These in the video were just leftover scraps of roof purlins for Cypress shingles on that job. They were already straight, but if they weren't there is a jointer and tablesaw right there. I was working in the temporary shop setup in the daylight basement of that museum house. My little bench was clamped to the tablesaw for mass.
That’s pretty much what I had in mind. I’m sure I have st least two 4’ scraps in the shop somewhere.

[Tony Wilkins]

I’m continuing to work as I had intended. One thing I don’t get with y’all’s objection… I am sensing a lot of feedback through the #7 as I go 45*. I can feel the high spots very well and I’m far from taking down the low spots. I can see the method y’all suggest on a board this long going along the length though. After all I learned with trying to flatten the edge I was seriously considering that 36” plane Scott Meeks sells :rolls eyes:
512758

https://youtube.com/shorts/UpfT5PeCeeE?si=uv-dJoAF_1Rg9WlZ

[Tony Wilkins]

Cleared off to gauge progress…
512796

[Mark Rainey]

Impressive Tony...I nominate you for King of the Neanderthals 2023! Keep us posted...

[Tony Wilkins]

Impressive Tony...I nominate you for King of the Neanderthals 2023! Keep us posted...
Perhaps knave or most definitely joker.

BTW, I have some birch long enough to make a long winding stick set — mostly straight grain. Found my level and it’s 2’.

[Tony Wilkins]

Had a realization when I was watching a Bob Rosaieski on planing. My plan was always to stop before installing the breadboards to bring the top and putt it in the space it will live. I was going to do this to see what length we will want to live with and make sure that any remaining movement moves. I hadn’t looked for twist yet but if I do shorten it (which is likely) then I’ll cut some of the twist out.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tried a longer video…
https://youtu.be/iOMlZee2s9w?si=IUBME2eoPIgb_a4E

[Mark Rainey]

Good video Tony. At a certain point when the top is reasonably level, you should scribe a line around the edges and ends for thickness ( using a marking gauge referencing the top ). Then have 2 hyperkinetic 14 year olds help you out with the planing. Keep us updated.

[Tony Wilkins]

Still working on scrubbing done uneven edges.
https://youtube.com/shorts/FuKxc4POJS8?si=ITmthCq4GEIGQ2cU

[Jim Koepke]

I could do that. Would that be better than riving out some straight gain stock and making a pair?

The actual experience of making your own will alway surpass the knowledge gained by buying a simple to make tool.

Winding Stick / Straight Edges > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331

Even though this was my second and third pair, it still presented a few lessons to learn.

If you do have some scrap stock, rip it and be done. It will take less time than driving to the store and cost less.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

The actual experience of making your own will alway surpass the knowledge gained by buying a simple to make tool.

Winding Stick / Straight Edges > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331

Even though this was my second and third pair, it still presented a few lessons to learn.

If you do have some scrap stock, rip it and be done. It will take less time than driving to the store and cost less.

jtk

CS, through open line, basically said if it looks straight leave it be. But I will probably make another set of them sometime.

[Tony Wilkins]

Sharpening the blade I took to the grinder isn’t going well so I put the one I got from LN into the #4. Getting unevenness out of the bottom is work but I’m surprised at the flatness of the result. Took the longest straight edge to it n
https://youtu.be/lat5Pp9kYGs?si=8qrBOMs7BVb4aR6V

[Tony Shea]

I'm a little late for my suggestion of winding sticks but will give it anyway. Buying 4' levels for winding sticks is a bit of an expense IMO. I use a aluminum angle which is typically produced by extruding. This process produces relatively straight pieces. You can spray paint them two different contrasting colors or take the lazy way and put blue painters tape on one piece. You can sight down the pieces before you buy them and pick out the straightest pieces, you'd be surprised at how good a human eye can see a straight line.

I admire you taking this challenge on, it's a ton of work to plane such a large surface. Eat some carbs and keep at it!!!

[Tony Wilkins]

Brought in and roughly in place…
513443

[Mark Rainey]

Looking good Tony

[Jim Koepke]

CS, through open line, basically said if it looks straight leave it be. But I will probably make another set of them sometime.

I have a bit of an astigmatism. Looking straight in line with something works most of the time. Looking at something from certain angles can make something straight look slightly bowed. Having a solid mechanical indicator helps to remove any guess work.

jtk