Which Tail Vise for new Roubo

[JohnM Martin]

Building a new Roubo. Anyone have any thoughts or experience here?

Trying to decide between

Benchcrafted Classic Tail Vise
Hovarter VX21 Wagon Vise
HNT Gordon Tail Vise


I'm sure they would all do the job, but just curious if there are opinions from those with experience in this area.

[Tony Wilkins]

I only have experience with the Benchcraftef. It works well and is beefy. No knowledge of the Hovarter. The HNT Gordon is beautiful but doesn’t look as heavy duty. It does look easier to install. Have you looked at Lake Erie wooden ones?

[JohnM Martin]

I only have experience with the Benchcraftef. It works well and is beefy. No knowledge of the Hovarter. The HNT Gordon is beautiful but doesn’t look as heavy duty. It does look easier to install. Have you looked at Lake Erie wooden ones?
I haven't but that is another one to consider. If you have a vise made from wood, wouldn't it be susceptible to wood movement just like anything else? Could that lead to problems with smooth vise operation or am I overthinking that?

[Jimmy Harris]

I haven't but that is another one to consider. If you have a vise made from wood, wouldn't it be susceptible to wood movement just like anything else? Could that lead to problems with smooth vise operation or am I overthinking that?

Probably overthinking it. The wood should expand out against the width, not against the length, so the threads will remain at the same distance preventing any binding. So long as they're cut with a bit of extra room, which most threads, it shouldn't be much of a problem. But I don't like wooden screws, as the just don't seem like they'd last as long to me, and usually aren't much cheaper. Then again, you see them on benches that have seen over a 100 years of heavy use and they still work today, so it's probably just a superstition I have.

Personally, I'd opt for the wagon vise. But I use the end vise mostly for planing and the wagon vise provides better support for that. But it's all personal preference. If one was obviously the better choice, you'd never see the other.

[Jim Koepke]

Building a new Roubo. Anyone have any thoughts or experience here?

Trying to decide between

Benchcrafted Classic Tail Vise
Hovarter VX21 Wagon Vise
HNT Gordon Tail Vise


I'm sure they would all do the job, but just curious if there are opinions from those with experience in this area.

Not being familiar with all of those vises, Dr. Google was consulted. It appears they are all wagon vises. At one time this seemed like a good idea to me. Then after paying attention to my woodworking habits it occurred to me my regular inexpensive style vise worked much better for many of my work holding needs.

512287

This vise racks, but that can be handled and sometimes is an advantage.

Otherwise one can make a twin screw vise for ~$120 if they want economy or under $400 if they want a chain drive between the screws.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/vises

jtk

[David Carroll]

I haven't but that is another one to consider. If you have a vise made from wood, wouldn't it be susceptible to wood movement just like anything else? Could that lead to problems with smooth vise operation or am I overthinking that?

My Sjobergs bench has wooden screws and I do notice that they are swollen and harder to turn in the summer months (this affects the tail vise more than the shoulder vise. I don't think that it's a bad thing really, but I do notice it.

I really like traditional european shoulder vises, probably because I have used them all of my life. But there are several ways to hold work with one that isn't just pinching it between dogs. They do sag, which can be a nuisance but all in all, if I had to build a new bench, I would still stick with one as opposed to a wagon vise.

DC

[Tom Bussey]

This to me is a tail vise. The tail vise hardware that Bench crafted sells is more like a wagon vise to me than a tail vise. Lee valley sells the hardware for $56.50 or tail vise for $115. or the quick release tail vise for $395. I prefer the $115 model but making the wooden part takes a little research and planning on how to do it. Frank Klausz uses the 56.50 type screw. The work Bench book by Scott Landis has a complete drawing of the entire vise. Tail vises can get complicated and if your want the simplest to install then The $395 model is the way to go. For me I like the $115 model PS: Woodcraft also sells the vise Hardware.

512288

This to me is a wagon vise. I bought the hardware from Lee Valley for $46.90 I am building a Moravian bench at the present and it will have this type of wagon vise on it. It is routed on the bottom just like bench Crafted's wagon vise. This is the simplest and eases vise to make

512289

I am not familiar with the other vises mentioned

[Jim Koepke]

Another thing about the simple Sjöberg vise is the ability to hold odd shapes using the double row of dog holes.

512290

I've also made a pair of jaw extenders to hold work on the bench, instead of in the vise jaws for mortising.

jtk

[Richard Verwoest]

Why? Just use holdfasts, doe's feet, planning stop(s), etc. And if/when you need a vice, consider a Moxon and a Hi vice.

Richard

[Derek Cohen]

Building a new Roubo. Anyone have any thoughts or experience here?

Trying to decide between

Benchcrafted Classic Tail Vise
Hovarter VX21 Wagon Vise
HNT Gordon Tail Vise


I'm sure they would all do the job, but just curious if there are opinions from those with experience in this area.

John, my bench has the Benchcrafted ail vise, and it has been superb and reliable all the years. I heartedly recommend it. Note that my bench is 3 1/2" thick.

https://i.postimg.cc/Gt09Zk6L/Tailvise2a-zpsoztwxd9j.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have not used or seen the Hovater, and cannot comment.

I did "own" the HNT Gordon tail vise briefly - it was a prize in a competition, and subsequently sold - and have also used one on many occasions. These are beautifully made and run smoothly. They appear to be designed for an easy installation in a thinner bench top (2"), and would be a better choice in this case. The downside is that they are designed for replaceable dogs (of varying heights), rather than pop-up dogs. I would find this inconvenient. Note that the "wheel" is a smaller diameter roller and ts small size makes for a compact set up. But I prefer the larger wheel of the Benchcrafted.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Why? Just use holdfasts, doe's feet, planning stop(s), etc. And if/when you need a vice, consider a Moxon and a Hi vice.

Richard

Have you ever tried planing on a round piece held by a holdfast? How about hollowing out the center for a seat?

Here is my jaw extension for mortising:

512291

That would be prone to flopping over if held by a holdfast.

Put a dog in my vise and it can do what a wagon vise does. Not much to do to a wagon vise to make it as versatile as a simpler to install vise.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

If you have a vise made from wood, wouldn't it be susceptible to wood movement just like anything else? Could that lead to problems with smooth vise operation or am I overthinking that?

Well, yes and no.

When I was in Junior High shop class (in the climate controlled school building) there was about a 50/50 mix between wood and metal screws on the bench vises. I found I prefer a wooden vise screw, but that is a personal preference, not scientific superiority.

I do own the Mac Daddy model wooden screw from Lake Erie, honestly it is (with AYS chain) about the same price as the Mac Daddy model from Bench Crafted with the crisscross hardware. Like anything else, good tools usually cost more than mediocre tools.

I almost mentioned wooden screw as an option earlier in the thread, but it seemed like in the early days you were looking for something almost as good as BC at a lower price.

FWIW when I was ready to order my wooden kit from Lake Erie I first emailed them and said, Hey, you know, the wintertime in my shop gets down to about +55dF and about 10%RH. In high summer I can often record +80dF and 70%RH. Can you cut a screw for me? They emailed back and said "Yes." I sent them money. They sent me awesome product. The screw is a little bit tighter in the nut in the summer, and a little bit looser in the winter, but I have never needed like a hammer or something to turn the Tommy bar.

If you use a wooden vise screw and like it, and know the ordinary extremes in your shop you may, my one data point, order from Lake Erie with total confidence.

As far as tail vises, my opinion (not owning one) is you need to be clear on how often you need to vise something narrow at the front of your bench like a sticking board, versus something wide like a panel. I personally tend to whack things on my bench top. I like the idea of a wagon vise, but I don't like the idea of not being able to whack stuff over near there.

[Mel Fulks]

Bees wax is the best thing for wooden vises. Lasts a long time before needing a new application. Smooth and quiet.

[Scott Winners]

Bees wax is the best thing for wooden vises. Lasts a long time before needing a new application. Smooth and quiet.

I used Johnson's floor wax on mine, 3-4 coats, buffed like USMC. Unsure of previous thread title. I waxed and buffed mine quite a bit more than the usual suspects on youtube, no trouble or indication to rewax with mine yet after however many years. I would not expect future trouble with intentional application and buffing of bee's wax. What I really like is my double lead screw gives one inch of chop movement per revolution, so starting with a closed chop looking at an 8x8 I can rotate the Tommy bar 8.25 turns, have the chop open 'wide enough' and close the chop with my knee while holding the work piece with both hands.

I am happy for the folks with expensive metal screws that can have the jaws on their leg vise open 8.25 inches, spin the wheel, and have the chop close up on 4/4 stock; but at the end of the day it is a stunt. At top end price range both wooden and metal screws provide way more than adequate clamping force. Both metal and wooden screws, at this price point, are more than adequate for pro users and overkill for at home hobbyists like me.

I have no quarrel with anyone who has used both and prefers a metal screw. I have used both and prefer wood, but that is a personal subjective feeling that others may not have or share. If you have used both and prefer a metal screw we can still be friends as long as you understand as a Tarheel I hate Duke basketball so much I want you to hate them too. As long as your second favorite basketball team is 'whoever is playing Duke,' I don't care if you like a metal screw on your vises. I don't care if you drive a Ford or a Chevy or a Dodge; if your truck meets your needs it is a good truck.

I do think that giving a new wood screw/nut combination a thorough waxing and buffing is part and parcel of an intentional, workmanlike install.

[Jason Meinholz]

512299

I absolutely love my Hovarter wagon vise. It locks and unlocks (tightens and loosens) in under a quarter turn of the handle. Once loose, you just slide the vise/block to where you want it, super quick and easy.

My bench top is 4" thick, and Walnut end block is 5".

[David Carroll]

Bees wax is the best thing for wooden vises. Lasts a long time before needing a new application. Smooth and quiet.

When I first got the Sjobergs bench, I used graphite to lubricate the screws. It worked fine, except it turned them black. I don't know where I heard that that advice, but I don't recommend it. When Howard's feed n' wax (a mixture of orange oil and beeswax) came out, I tried that on the screws. I used it to "wash" off as much of the now embedded graphite as I could. It took awhile but much of it did come out. Now at the first sign of squeaking I apply a coat of that. It works great!

DC

[Richard Verwoest]

Hello Jim,

Bench dogs and doe's feet work great on round objects. I have not done much mortising, but I think I have seen a fixture using wedges for this.

Richard

[Reed Gray]

If I had wood screws on my vice, I would not use bees wax. From a bowl turning background, carnauba wax offers far better moisture protection and longevity. Kiwi Neutral shoe polish is carnauba wax. Butchers bowling alley wax is also mostly carnauba. Not sure what all is in Johnson's paste wax.

robo hippy

[Tony Wilkins]

Is Will Myers still selling the wagon vise he put on his Moravian? That might be an option if he is

[Tom Bussey]

The first two pictures are of the front and back of my bench. Personally I prefer a face vise and a tail vise. I put a leg vise and a wagon vise on the back side. Probable 80 percent of the time, it is the tail vise with bench dogs that I use. The wagon vise with bench dogs would probably see more use if it wasn't on the back side. The wagon vise will do almost everything the tail vise will do.

512317 512318

Next is using a face vise with a holdfast. and clamping to a side using holdfasts, as well as using a moxon vise.

512319 512320512322

Then there is the tail vise, as well a a leg vise and holdfast 512324 on the left hand side of the bench as well as just using hold fasts.

512323 512324

[Tom Bussey]

I had to leave so I thought I would finish . Most hobby woodworkers consider themselves lucky if they can get 4 hours a week in the shop. Some get more than others. I think Derick is a professional and if he is, he gets a lot of shop time, And what is cheap for a professional because time is money, is highly expensive for the hobbyist because that person may use a vise one hour a week. All of this should be taken into account when buying a vise.

I have a few more pictures but it all boils down to how much do you want to spend. The shoulder vise screw from Lee Valley is $46.90, while the one from BenchCrafted's is $515. I do not know the cost of the other two that were mentioned. Both install about the same so mounting is a wash. Any way both make great wagon vises. Does 30 seconds worth of speed warrant the cost difference.

Some have said one can get along without a vise by using holdfasts As I have tried to show there are several different ways of clamping so to each his own. As I have said I prefer a tail vise but a wagon vise is all but the next best thing and I wouldn't be with out one or the other.

So in the end the choice is in your hands so please let us know what you decide.

512333

No vises just holdfast and squeeze clamps

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Tom. Just to clarify - I am an amateur, not a professional. When involved with a project, I can manage 3 days a week in the workshop. I continue to run a full time psych practice (4 days in the week). Available time is just as important, whether one is an amateur or a pro. This translates to the need to work as efficiently as possible. No one wants to muck about with fiddly work-holding. This does not mean that the best system is expensive or elaborate; in fact, simple is better, as is reliability.

The question asked earlier was why a leg vise? I think that they came back into the picture because the likes of Chris Schwarz re-kindled a passion for work benches, and shopmade vises. When I built my current bench I was looking for a larger, very solid handtool-orientated structure, and the Roubo met this, particularly as I liked its simplicity. The Moxon dovetail vise was also emerging as a serious aid, and this freed the bench to focus on ripping (a simple face vise for holding long boards) and planing faces (the wagon vise appealed as it did not extend the length of the bench, itself). Prior to the Moxon coming on board, I had been planning a Veritas double screw vise into the side of the bench top. A leg vise is not only much more compact, but allows for the more ergonomic Moxon.

If I was to replace anything today, I would install the HNT Gordon face vise in place of the leg vise. The fact that I have not done so to date is the high cost if said vise and that the leg vise continues to do a great job. I think the HNT Gordon would do it better (= more reliably, absolutely nil racking, and compact). It is just personal preference at this point. Some will also like this vise, while others will not see the point (it looks similar to a Record, but lacks any quick release). The BC wagon vise has been a jewel all along. That stays.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[JohnM Martin]

Thank you for sharing, Tom. It seems you have quite an array of options, and in one of your other comments you mentioned Lee Valley wagon vise hardware. How has that worked for you? That is the way I'm leaning currently


The first two pictures are of the front and back of my bench. Personally I prefer a face vise and a tail vise. I put a leg vise and a wagon vise on the back side. Probable 80 percent of the time, it is the tail vise with bench dogs that I use. The wagon vise with bench dogs would probably see more use if it wasn't on the back side. The wagon vise will do almost everything the tail vise will do.

512317 512318

Next is using a face vise with a holdfast. and clamping to a side using holdfasts, as well as using a moxon vise.

512319 512320512322

Then there is the tail vise, as well a a leg vise and holdfast 512324 on the left hand side of the bench as well as just using hold fasts.

512323 512324

[JohnM Martin]

Thanks for sharing, Jason. Was the install difficult?


512299

I absolutely love my Hovarter wagon vise. It locks and unlocks (tightens and loosens) in under a quarter turn of the handle. Once loose, you just slide the vise/block to where you want it, super quick and easy.

My bench top is 4" thick, and Walnut end block is 5".

[JohnM Martin]

Thanks for sharing, Derek. My bench top is going to be somewhere around 4" thick and I've decided on a solid slab so it will (hopefully) look similar to yours when its all done.


John, my bench has the Benchcrafted ail vise, and it has been superb and reliable all the years. I heartedly recommend it. Note that my bench is 3 1/2" thick.

https://i.postimg.cc/Gt09Zk6L/Tailvise2a-zpsoztwxd9j.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have not used or seen the Hovater, and cannot comment.

I did "own" the HNT Gordon tail vise briefly - it was a prize in a competition, and subsequently sold - and have also used one on many occasions. These are beautifully made and run smoothly. They appear to be designed for an easy installation in a thinner bench top (2"), and would be a better choice in this case. The downside is that they are designed for replaceable dogs (of varying heights), rather than pop-up dogs. I would find this inconvenient. Note that the "wheel" is a smaller diameter roller and ts small size makes for a compact set up. But I prefer the larger wheel of the Benchcrafted.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[JohnM Martin]

I hope its ok to post youtube links here. In reading this thread, and especially after your replies, Tom, why not opt for something like what is shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZhblpgm8xo which appears to be a much more economical option than some of the premium options. Are you giving up anything by going with something like this?


I had to leave so I thought I would finish . Most hobby woodworkers consider themselves lucky if they can get 4 hours a week in the shop. Some get more than others. I think Derick is a professional and if he is, he gets a lot of shop time, And what is cheap for a professional because time is money, is highly expensive for the hobbyist because that person may use a vise one hour a week. All of this should be taken into account when buying a vise.

I have a few more pictures but it all boils down to how much do you want to spend. The shoulder vise screw from Lee Valley is $46.90, while the one from BenchCrafted's is $515. I do not know the cost of the other two that were mentioned. Both install about the same so mounting is a wash. Any way both make great wagon vises. Does 30 seconds worth of speed warrant the cost difference.

Some have said one can get along without a vise by using holdfasts As I have tried to show there are several different ways of clamping so to each his own. As I have said I prefer a tail vise but a wagon vise is all but the next best thing and I wouldn't be with out one or the other.

So in the end the choice is in your hands so please let us know what you decide.

512333

No vises just holdfast and squeeze clamps

[Tom Bussey]

The vise pictures is a little easier to install. The one block doesn't need to be morticed into the end plate like on mine. But I guess it could be turned around. I think it just looks cleaner in morticed in. Be carful because both of the blocks in the video need to be in very good alignment or it is going to be sticky. The screw goes through the jaw so that is why to holes side by side. You may have to cut the screw shorter. It will work fine. I just like the way I did mine and I am planning on doing my next build the same way.

[Tom Bussey]

Derek, From what I have seen of your work I kind of figured that you got in a little more shop time than most hobbyist. I will not get any until the end of march.

My grandfather was a carpenter by trade. He was retired and lived in California but he came to visit each summer. Anyway he managed to get a hold workbench and we had it in the basement. The bench was basically a Nickelson except that it t had a leg vise and maybe the pin on the bottom was missing or something but I couldn't get it to work properly. I was maybe 8 at the time. I asked my dad but he said He would show me latter, which meant it was never going to happen. I prefer a shoulder vise because it is open to the floor. And possibly because I have a distaste for a leg vise that stems from 70 years ago.

[Jason Meinholz]

Thanks for sharing, Jason. Was the install difficult?

Hi John,

Apologies for the late response. I felt it was fairly simple and straight forward to install. Just mill the required dimensions and install.