Do I need a RAS in my shop?

[Nick Crivello]

Just ruminating on ways to improve workflow in my small ~425sq ft workshop. I have a 1946 era 12" DeWalt 3hp 3-phase RAS that I really love; it's a great looking tool with character. Despite that, are there compelling practical reasons to keep a RAS in a workspace that includes a Felder slider, track saw, jigsaw, shaper, shaper origin, and full size plunge router? It takes up about 4' of space along one wall next to the workbench. I have several machines on mobile bases such as the bandsaw and planer, which are moved about during projects. It would be handy to have a 'parking spot' for 1-2 as it's annoying to have to keep moving things around...

[Rod Sheridan]

As a slider owner I vote no, it’s just taking up valuable space.

My mitre saw has been banished to the shed, something the slider also replaced

Regards, Rod

[Michael Burnside]

I don't think owning a slider or not matters too much. I don't own one and my answer is probably the same as Ron's. Personally, I think it depends on your workflow and what you build. I cannot think of the last time I used my RAS for final dimensioning lumber. Even when I rough-cut I often just pull out the old jigsaw. It's nice, sometimes, but far from necessary unless what you do or how you do it makes the RAS the best tool for the job.

[andrew whicker]

Interesting.. as a non slider owner I am hoping to get my ras to the point of enough accuracy in order to final cross cut panels.

I more or less hate the tracksaw for efficiency reasons

[Nick Crivello]

I more or less hate the tracksaw for efficiency reasons

I find the track saw very handy for many tasks, but they can certainly be inefficient. Many accessories can mitigate it. A full size MFT table with fence and hinge mounted track goes a long way to overcome them. I have one of those Dashboard PWS tables that I wasn't able to fully realize in my space. :(

[Patrick Kane]

I don't think owning a slider or not matters too much. I don't own one and my answer is probably the same as Ron's. Personally, I think it depends on your workflow and what you build. I cannot think of the last time I used my RAS for final dimensioning lumber. Even when I rough-cut I often just pull out the old jigsaw. It's nice, sometimes, but far from necessary unless what you do or how you do it makes the RAS the best tool for the job.

It does to a certain degree, because the Felder performs all the operations the RAS does. It is redundant, and probably inferior. The Felder will cut a workpiece that is significantly wider than the dewalt's CC capacity, i assume. I havent been around his model of RAS, but im guessing the Felder crosscuts with greater accuracy too.

I would sell it. I sold my MFT and kapex when i purchased a used felder slider. I think that was 6ish years ago and i have zero remorse. Now, oddly enough i did buy a Northfield Unipoint RAS last year. The way my table saw is setup, it isnt terribly convenient to cross cut long lumber. Furthermore, crosscutting something that leaves a 4'+ offcut on the rip fence side of the blade hits my dust collection drop.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I had a 12" DeWalt RAS for about 14 years, and I paid $25 for it at an auction. It was nice for very rough fast cuts, but that was about it. It never was in the shop, but in the sawmill building for 7 years, and then in the new building while I built that and afterward. If a sawmill customer needed to cut a pile of boards shorter to fit in his vehicle the RAS was great, but I could do the same thing by stacking the boards and cutting them all at once with the chainsaw. If you had lots of room I would keep it for those times when it might be handy, but in limited space it wouldn't seem worth it to me. I'm in a similar sized shop to yours now, and have had to prioritize a bit.

[Nick Crivello]

It does to a certain degree, because the Felder performs all the operations the RAS does. It is redundant, and probably inferior. The Felder will cut a workpiece that is significantly wider than the dewalt's CC capacity, i assume. I havent been around his model of RAS, but im guessing the Felder crosscuts with greater accuracy too.

I would sell it. I sold my MFT and kapex when i purchased a used felder slider. I think that was 6ish years ago and i have zero remorse. Now, oddly enough i did buy a Northfield Unipoint RAS last year. The way my table saw is setup, it isnt terribly convenient to cross cut long lumber. Furthermore, crosscutting something that leaves a 4'+ offcut on the rip fence side of the blade hits my dust collection drop.

It's a short arm RAS with about 18" or so cross cut ability. The slider exceeds that by miles. Thought I might be doing more tenon and dado work in future builds, but the routers and shaper(s) can also do this. The Felder is an earlier K700 with short arbor and inability to use dado stacks however.

[John TenEyck]

As one who would never get rid of my old Dewalt RAS, I would not get one if I had a slider. There are things the RAS can do easier than any other machine, like plow dados, and make horizontal cuts (Try that with a slider or just about anything else, and, yes, I've used my RAS for that function and it's saved my bacon a couple of times.), but I easily could live without it IF I had a slider.

Fear not, Andrew, you will get your RAS dialed in and be able to crosscut anything out to the capacity of your saw with as much accuracy as any other machine. I use my RAS to crosscut anything that will fit on it. With a calibrated length stop on the rear fence, I can cut one or a hundred parts to identical length. It can be used on either side of the blade, too, something you can't do with a slider.

John

[Nick Crivello]

I had a 12" DeWalt RAS for about 14 years, and I paid $25 for it at an auction. It was nice for very rough fast cuts, but that was about it. It never was in the shop, but in the sawmill building for 7 years, and then in the new building while I built that and afterward. If a sawmill customer needed to cut a pile of boards shorter to fit in his vehicle the RAS was great, but I could do the same thing by stacking the boards and cutting them all at once with the chainsaw. If you had lots of room I would keep it for those times when it might be handy, but in limited space it wouldn't seem worth it to me. I'm in a similar sized shop to yours now, and have had to prioritize a bit.

Not to mention a battery powered jigsaw can achieve those same rough cuts.

I actually did just that a few weeks back; picked up about 122bf of wide pine lumber from hardwood dealer. Broke them down in parking lot with the jigsaw in all of maybe 5 minutes. Threw everything in the SUV and away I went.

[George Yetka]

I like the idea of either a RAS or CMS to break down wood. The RAS can double as a cross dado machine. The CMS can double as something you can use outside the shop for trim/framing etc. Each do take up room though. And I agree a jigsaw can handle rough breakdown or even a tracksaw with a short track but I need a place for drawer storage so a Miter saw station fits the bill

[Edward Weber]

Well, I've always had a RAS since about 1990 or so. I never understood the notion that they're only good for rough dimensionless. you can tune up just about ant saw to make straight repeatable cuts.
Recently, i got an Omga for $30 at auction. A little clean up and it's a great tool I would never get rid of.
Work flow, specific tasks, etc, there is a place for an RAS IMO, regardless of your other tools.

[Bradley Gray]

14" turret saw here. It's not going anywhere. Cut some12' to length yesterday.

[Michael Burnside]

I never understood the notion that they're only good for rough dimensionless.

I never said that or meant to imply such a notion. The reason I only use mine for rough-dimensioning is that I generally build furniture and when I'm dimensioning, it's usually rips and crosscuts and I prefer the table saw as it does it all for me.

Even a skill saw and a square can be used to dimension lumber if you got the skill. My grandpa did...I don't.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I don't understand why people choose a jigsaw to crosscut lumber. It seems like a handheld circular saw is an order of magnitude faster, at least for the saws I have owned or used, and tends to cut straighter and cleaner. I'm sure the RAS I had could have been tuned to cut better, but I didn't really need it for that.

[Nick Crivello]

I don't understand why people choose a jigsaw to crosscut lumber. It seems like a handheld circular saw is an order of magnitude faster, at least for the saws I have owned or used, and tends to cut straighter and cleaner. I'm sure the RAS I had could have been tuned to cut better, but I didn't really need it for that.

The commentary I've seen is that for boards which are badly twisted or have tension in them the jigsaw won't get pinched or experience kickback. A cordless circular saw or something like a Festool HKC would work great otherwise.

[Alex Zeller]

I have my father's old Craftsman RAS sitting in a shed. I kept it when he died but I have never used it. It was the first real power tool he owned. His table saw was one of the old cast iron ones where the weight of the motor (that wasn't included with the purchase of the saw) is what tensioned the belt. I've ripped far too many warped 2Xs on that his RAS as a youth. I can't seem to part with it (it may have even been recalled) but I don't ever see myself using it. A few years ago a nice single phase 14" Delta was for sale on an on-line auction about 10 minutes from my house. I wanted so badly to buy it but I knew I would never use it so I passed. Unless you have a specific need I would let it go.

[Jim Becker]

"For me", I'd not buy a RAS nor would I keep one I had unless it was a really nice, old iron machine in good condition that would be "just neat to have" and kewel enough so that I could justify the space it would take away from my shop. There are certainly some things that a RAS can do really well, such as cross cutting dados, but many sliding miter saws now have that ability, too, at least with a single blade. (not a stack) But the world has moved on to a place where there are other options and since I have a slider, there's not a good functional reason to have one. Heck, I very rarely use my miter saw and only keep it around in the "tool corral" on a small mobile stand for construction work or occasional other creative uses.

[John TenEyck]

I don't understand why people choose a jigsaw to crosscut lumber. It seems like a handheld circular saw is an order of magnitude faster, at least for the saws I have owned or used, and tends to cut straighter and cleaner. I'm sure the RAS I had could have been tuned to cut better, but I didn't really need it for that.


Because it's the safest tool for cross cutting rough lumber, short of a handsaw. Circular saws, CMS, RAS, whatever it is with a a rotating blade get pinched easily on lumber that isn't flat, and then it gets interesting. That's just about impossible to happen with a jigsaw. And there are rough cutting blades available for cutting stock at least 3" thick.

It's my go to tool for rough crosscutting lumber.

John

[Jim Becker]

I agree with you, John...a jigsaw or sawzall is the go-to for rough cutting gnarly stuff to length for the reason you mention.

[Michael Burnside]

Yep, and the jigsaw doesn’t require an altar of worship to use either :)

[Warren Lake]

had to cross cut tons of solid over the years and radial arm is best. One I started with was junk so for a while used a sliding table had two one each side on a general cabinet saw. Cutting rough solid on a sliding table saw is crappy. Ive done 100's of times and stopped for the improvement of using my skill saw. Just cross cut 4/4 rough pine for more shelves and the worm drive worked fine. Better than the crap radial I had which was a sears that kicked out as soon as i made it work, thermal overload. have a wadkin now not wired till time.

All of these posts are the same comes down to what you. A radial is a basic tool to cross cut rough solid and a sliding table saw stinks by comparison. Most of my solid is 10 feet and up past some of it 16 feet and once again the slider falls down and gets a fail. I put up with the skil saw for many years, even had to buy a lighter one now that im ancient I could no longer hold the black handle straight out in front of me comfortably with one hand so I dropped to the lighter red one and fine. I had 11 machines in my first shop, radial one of them and im pretty sure that shop was smaller than your space.

[Michael Schuch]

Just ruminating on ways to improve workflow in my small ~425sq ft workshop. I have a 1946 era 12" DeWalt 3hp 3-phase RAS that I really love; it's a great looking tool with character. Despite that, are there compelling practical reasons to keep a RAS in a workspace that includes a Felder slider, track saw, jigsaw, shaper, shaper origin, and full size plunge router? It takes up about 4' of space along one wall next to the workbench. I have several machines on mobile bases such as the bandsaw and planer, which are moved about during projects. It would be handy to have a 'parking spot' for 1-2 as it's annoying to have to keep moving things around...

If you are asking then probably not. My 1947 RedStar radial arm saw is the center of my work and a project is pretty much never completed without some time on the RAS.

That is my style of wood working. Just because a RAS is integral to my shop doesn't mean that it should integral to your shop.

P.S. I do also own a slider.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I've never had much trouble with pinching on a circular saw, and when it did I just backed up and started again, cutting the kerf wider. Not all construction lumber is flat, though it would be nice if it were, and that's how I got used to using a circular saw. I have never been able to make a very clean straight cut with a sawzall or jigsaw, so I only use them when there is no other option.

[Warren Lake]

When i cut sections out of boards say a 16 footer and laying out all that had to be cut out of it to match and get best grain pattern etc a jig saw might have been used the odd time but any of those drop in rip cuts were best made with a circular saw only time a jig saw if the skill saw cut would be too long and run into another part, Otherwise a giant waste of time.

you can minimize pinching for your skill with a bit of thought. Id say I just made towards 100 cross cuts with the board on the bench and the offcut in my left hand because it was just under 2 foot sections. Simple and easy. yes like lots of this there is a bit of a feel, I could make it pinch if I wanted with poor technique.

[Nick Crivello]

If you are asking then probably not.

That's a good thought.

I put a fair amount of work into getting the thing set up, welded a custom stand with adjustable feet to match the workbench height, built a table for it, etc. Was working on integrating an Incra miter gauge in the table to make super accurate miters while being able to leave the saw locked at 90.

But at the end of the day, workflow is what matters. A lean workspace makes sense in a small shop. If I can more easily use tools and machines then I'll be more apt to want to work there. Making very quick 90 degree crosscuts is great, but keeping it to make rough cuts doesn't quite make sense in my situation.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In my shop I have a SCMS, TS with an accurate sled and a Craftsman RAS. 40 years ago, my former neighbor loaned me the RAS and I used it to cut the wainscoting in our living room. Yes, I did return it. 4 years ago, they sold their home and moved to Tucson, AZ. I bought the RAS for $100. I haven't plugged it in since I bought it. My Dewault SCMS, and my table saw have met my needs. My researching it after I bought it, it was one of the ones recalled and getting parts for it, should I need them, will be interesting. It appears, I don't need a RAS as badly as I thought.

[Ron Selzer]

I vote for the radial arm saw to stay. I do have the first one I bought (1982) in the garage, one in the basement main shop (1994), one in my daughter's garage (2018), one needing a table in my garage. I also have 3 panel saws when I need a wider crosscut. I will not be without one.
Ron

edit to add I do not like or own a SCMS, I use one at work and flat out despise it.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I got rid of my RAS 10 years ago and haven't missed it.

There wasn't anything it could do, at least for me, that another tool couldn't achieve.

I breakdown long boards with a jigsaw, mainly because it's easy to reach for and portable to be used in the best location to perform the task.

[Patrick Kane]

It's a short arm RAS with about 18" or so cross cut ability. The slider exceeds that by miles. Thought I might be doing more tenon and dado work in future builds, but the routers and shaper(s) can also do this. The Felder is an earlier K700 with short arbor and inability to use dado stacks however.

Ah, pre-2002+/- Felder does change my opinion ever so slightly. I assumed you could run a narrow dado/groover on your saw. However, if you are making your tenons effectively in other ways, then that diminishes the need to keep the RAS. On anything longer than 3-4' i find myself crosscutting shoulders on the Felder and then heading to my bandsaw for cheeks.

I am in about 200 more square feet than you, and it was freeing when i ditched my floor standing mortiser and 37" drum sander. I miss those tools once every blue moon, but so many tools in clogs up the workspace in a frustrating way.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Yep, and the jigsaw doesn’t require an altar of worship to use either :)Sort of.....there are plenty of members of the church of the sacred Bosch.

As far as a RAS goes, I talk myself out of one almost weekly. I could make room, but, I'd rather not have to.

[John TenEyck]

Valid points, Warren, but I think the OP is asking about the utility of a RAS vs a slider with regards to hobby level work in a small shop. Not many hobbyists need to cut 50 or more boards (picked that number at random) to rough length. Ten might be on the high side for a project, or portions of a project, and there are plenty of ways to do that short of using a RAS, including a handsaw which I occasionally use when it's the best option for me. And this from a guy who loves his RAS.

John

[Jimmy Harris]

I had a RAS maybe 30 years ago. I got rid of it because it wasn't useful. It wasn't as accurate as a good compound miter saw and not as versatile as a table saw. I don't miss it one bit. Plus it took up way too much space so the decision to get rid of it was easy. There's a reason why you don't see them around too much anymore, in my opinion.

But you already own one, so only you know if you use it enough to justify the space it takes up. For me, it was a net negative on my workflow. 99% of the time, it was in the way. And the other 1%, I had another tool available that would do what it could do.

[Warren Lake]

I counted and 10 machines in my first shop smaller space than that. That shop allowed me to save to buy the next shop which has allowed me to save to buy the next one if I find one that is right.

Id never agree with anyone a slider can replace a radial arm saw to cross cut rough material. We were taught never do anything by hand that a machine will do, its common sense. Ive already said the skill saw will work. Its both slower and clunky compared to the radial. Look at Jack and how much hes done with his radial with his old heads once again better to pass a head over material that is big, long or heavy.

1981


512226512227

[Alan Lightstone]

I got rid of mine about 10 years ago also, and haven't missed it. Don't have a slider, so I make do with my SCMS, track saw, and cabinet saw.

[Warren Lake]

as always it depends on the work you do. There are hobby guys that have better machines than I have even now. I dont care the acid test is when you are out in the real world making a living in a not easy trade to make a living in.

[Edward Weber]

I'll throw in a few more things I've seen over the years.
Some people are scared of them, for what exact reason, I don't know.
Many people don't know all the capabilities a RAS has. They lock it at 0 bevel, 90 degrees and there it sits. (sames goes for most with their SCMS but that's another thread)
I find having a larger table/work surface than any SCMS is a benefit, not to mention the cross-cut capacity also exceeds any SCMS with the same size blade.

Work flow is a very personal preference type of thing, I find when setting up machines for a specific project, there is always some instance where an RAS can be utilized. Usually keeping me from changing setups on other machines to do the same operation.

Hopefully all the info in this thread helps the OP decide

[Warren Lake]

thats cause they were never taught how to use them. Ive stated it a number of times here.

[glenn bradley]

RAS and (S)CMS threads are always a can of worms. Some folks can't live without them and that's fine. Even with 1200 square feet I can't spare the footprint for the function. That decision will vary with what you do. For what I do, I do not need either. That doesn't mean you won't benefit greatly from one or the other.

[Mike Wilkins]

If you have the space for a well-tuned RAS, I suggest keeping it. Blame You-Tube, but I have seen some there that have made good use for one and it is interesting (Dusty Lumber Company, Bradshaw Joinery, Frank Makes). I've seen the Dusty Lumber guy making tenons, half-laps and grooves with his, and he also has a sliding table saw. Keep the blade at 90 degrees and make some add-on sleds to make 45 degree cuts or others, referencing off the RAS fence.
I once owned the Ryobi RAS but it was just a lightweight running an 8 inch blade; didn't keep it long.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

RAS and (S)CMS threads are always a can of worms. Some folks can't live without them and that's fine. Even with 1200 square feet I can't spare the footprint for the function. That decision will vary with what you do. For what I do, I do not need either. That doesn't mean you won't benefit greatly from one or the other.

That's my issue, Glenn. I have 720 square feet and the Craftsman RAS is taking up space I could use.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have an Omga RM700 I have not the room for I am thinking of selling. Great saw, but I just don't have a place for it in my semi-retirement shop.

[Thomas McCurnin]

You'll have no consensus of opinions here.

I have a super deadly accurate old Hitachi which is dead on accurate and rarely needs adjusting, so I could live without a Radial Arm Saw. And I have a tiny woodshop, so it would take up valuable floor space, so I vote ....

Wait a minute, I have a 12" radial arm saw and love mine. It is an old pre-war 240v Rockwell and is deadly accurate and easy to adjust with some allen wrenches if need be, and cuts through 2x4 and 4x4 lumber like a breeze and does a great job of dados on narrow (< 12") stock. It is on casters so it can be wheeled out of the shop to cut down large lumber and can be fitted with an auxiliary fence and stop block for repeatable cross cuts.

I use mine weekly, so I vote to keep mine.

[Dave Zellers]

LOL Thomas. :p

I used to have 3 but now I'm down to two and will stand pat. Both old, one Craftsman and one Rockwell and they are both bang on accurate, and the 15" cut length is huge when I need it. It is a versatile machine, I have screwed a drill chuck on the end opposite the blade and used it to bore holes in the tops of posts perfectly straight and square. (is that redundant?) Right now one is set up with a 10" sanding disk that I can tilt to any angle.

A 12" with 18" cut length would have me drooling.

She's a keeper.

[Michael Burnside]

I will summarize this thread and numerous like it: Yes or no, you be the judge

[Mark Gibney]

I have a 10" Craftsman RAS. Great for accurate cutting of long pieces to final length.
But it bogs down in thicker material.
I'm considering getting a Festool Kapex chop saw in the new year.

[Larry Edgerton]

thats cause they were never taught how to use them. Ive stated it a number of times here.

Almost every Radial I see has the wrong blade in it. You can't go to Walmart and buy a blade for a RAS. Has to be a negative Hook.

[Edward Weber]

Almost every Radial I see has the wrong blade in it. You can't go to Walmart and buy a blade for a RAS. Has to be a negative Hook.

I always use a negative rake blade on my RAS and SCMS, I've never had an issue with the blade grabbing and the cut quality is perfect.
In the old days, negative rake blade were pretty much non existent and the saw could get quite grabby, This was the cause of many shorts to be soiled and why you can get a used craftsman for about $100.

[Warren Lake]

you keep your arm straight not bent at the elbow, either blade it cant take off, elbows fold. Straight arm doesnt and there is not material for the saw to grab its been removed you are holding or pushing it back no material to creep climb whatever. End of story no matter what blade is on it

A cheap saw will be well more prone to creeping because of flex in it and it will try and climb up. They also dont have the weight, heavier is better less creep. Heavier is better on almost every machine.

I have a 275.00 Negative hook on the one I have as it came from a school.

In over 40 years ive never seen anyone use one right yet an English cabinetmaker told me that back then. Negative rake good for sure but if you dont have it keep your arm straight

[Warren Lake]

often this site wont let me open my last post so I can edit it and here I am again. Only site that does this. If someone could explain what to do in simple terms ill try and fix it as head office hasnt.

All the shops i saw in auctions usually with Omga saws did have negative rakes on them. They didnt learn from you tube

[Gordon Stump]

I am not a cheerleader for my craftsman RAS. But I have the room and with my extended tables and a thin kerf Industrial blade it will cut 6/4 rough boards. I am 78 and getting a 12 foot 6/4 walnut board over to the RAS table is enough work. Wrestling with it on sawhorses or whatever with a jig saw or circular saw ain't gonna happen in my shop. So if there is room, why not keep it.

[Edward Weber]

Higher quality saws have a recoil mechanism that keeps the blade/carriage from creeping.

I'll have to disagree with Warren on this, but with a recoil system holding the blade in place and a negative rake blade, you're doing the pulling, not trying to hold the blade behind the fence, this makes a huge difference.
I have to pull my blade through the cut, I'm controlling the feed rate, not pushing back against a saw that wants to self feed. When I'm done a cut, the carriage wants to go back to it's resting position behind the fence. (if I were to let it go, it would do it by itself)
The self feed (grabby) is what scares people and why the "straight arm" technique is adopted by some.
Cut safely, whatever you choose

[Warren Lake]

hog wash you need to get out more. Probably been in or seen over 100 shops for auctions. Omga Wadkin other pro saws, nothing to pull them back. It may exist but never saw it in the real world.

[John TenEyck]

I haven't used many 3HP or larger RAS, but when I have, I never experienced climbing, unlike my 1.5 hp Dewalt GWI which will sometimes want to climb even with a negative hook blade on it. The reason the large ones don't do it while the lower powered ones do isn't in the motor, it's the column (mostly) and arms. Those large HP saws have really beefy columns and arms that don't easily bend. If you have ever experienced climb cutting and afterward thought about how it happened, it's usually when you are working near the bottom of the blade, where the angle to the wood is shallow. That allows the blade to walk up on top of the board, because wimpy column bends and allows it to. If you take that same board and support it on another board underneath on both sides, but not directly under where the blade will cut, you'll find it doesn't climb. Why? Because the angle of the blade to the wood is much steeper and that prevents the blade from being able to walk up on top of the board.

Larger RAS's seem inherently safer to me, once you get over their scare factor. If I were a few years younger I would pass my beloved GWI on to someone else and get an RA or similar saw with a 12 or 14" blade, and one with at least 18" of travel.

John

[Edward Weber]

hog wash you need to get out more. Probably been in or seen over 100 shops for auctions. Omga Wadkin other pro saws, nothing to pull them back. It may exist but never saw it in the real world.

I won't argue, I'll simply point out that my 2001, 12" Omga has a recoil/retract system.
Item #3
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[Doug Garson]

Guess I should have quoted Michael or my post doesn't make sense. Michael said"I will summarize this thread and numerous like it: Yes or no, you be the judge"

Or "it depends". :rolleyes:

[Warren Lake]

point taken

so you are telling me there is a pull back on your saw that is so strong that it stops a 2-3 HP saw from feeding? thats quite the set up if so. im sure if a saw was set tilted back it would return to the post.

For the rest of you if you want to not have issues with creeping keep your arm straight and it wont fold and if you push back on it there is no way it can keep feeding forward. I used these saws from the start mostly with the wrong blades on them as you use what the shop has. they dont always listen though now with nanny state they have to or more chance they do. The school one the had to but they changed t he saw out for some other 6,500.00 Radial

[Edward Weber]

It won't stop it from self feeding, though with a negative rake blade, that's not an issue. It does keep it from creeping. The amount of tension can be adjusted to the operators liking.

[Larry Edgerton]

hog wash you need to get out more. Probably been in or seen over 100 shops for auctions. Omga Wadkin other pro saws, nothing to pull them back. It may exist but never saw it in the real world.

My Omga RM700 has one.

[Warren Lake]

yeah edward said so and I acknowledged, its irrelevant to the discussion of radial arms feeding and climbing. Ill put two shims mine at the front and it will return as well

I stated long in here heavy better climb less, straight arm no matter what blade or what saw. I do what people taught when I see it works. Sometimes i dont listen to past info for other things and have my own way.

[Larry Edgerton]

Its real simple Warren. With a negative hook the teeth are pushing the wood at the table, with a positive it is trying to lift it up off the table, which at the same time is providing a better bite and inducing the saw to push toward the operator. Most of the people that I know that got hurt were ripping, with the wrong blade, and I am here to tell you you are not fast enough when the stuff hits the fan. Pulls their feed hand right in to the saw before they let go. The saws may be able to rip, but not in my shop.

[Bradley Gray]

I worked in a lumber mill in high school. The owners son in law used the 18" RAS one night and tried to rip a 2 x 4. Fed it the wrong way. Went through the wall.

[Warren Lake]

I know you are a skilled guy respected you for many years

Many saws exist with no negative hook blade. Ive seen them. Ive had negative hook blades including dadoes for a long time. The crap radio alarm saw I started iwth in the 70's didnt have negative hook, it climbed enough times and I also ripped on it. School was 81 and I don't remember what they had but do remember the English teacher and the straight arm, its all I learned from him as there were germans there with history. I can tell you once i did the straight arm the cheap radial with a regular carbide blade never never climbed again because a straight arm it cant. The only reason it could was with not having a straight arm.

The English guy was right, so if you have a cheap radial like a sears and dont have negative hook the straight arm will work.

[Larry Edgerton]

I worked in a lumber mill in high school. The owners son in law used the 18" RAS one night and tried to rip a 2 x 4. Fed it the wrong way. Went through the wall.

At the old school lumber yard, and oh I miss those days, they had a big Rockwell 16 in the back. It was in an old common brick train yard and there was a 2x2 oak stuck in the brick wall. The saw put it there. It was stuck in so hard it would not wiggle, so they left it there as a reminder.

Warren, I do the straight arm thing even with the neg. blade, especially in big timber. Oh, and I am missing a finger, so there is that too.:D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Dads shop in the Seventies was in the saw shed of the derelict Bowling Lumber Company. It sat in a corner of the train yard. Use of the giant potbelly stove and the giant radial arm saw were included in the $50.00 a month rent. Both were fascinating and terrifying to be around. I enjoyed the trains too.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ive had few Dewalts big and small in my shop for rough cutoff. I just phased out the last one, a 12" downsizing a bit for semi retirement. If you have the space they are OK for rough cutting to length. Slider saw can work for shorter pieces but awkward. I put a auto return on the Dewalt and that adds a bit of safety. For rough cutoff another safety item is keeping a couple spacers handy for crooked material that is not touching the fence. the can cause a big blade pinch especially in thick hardwoods. I also have a German Graule radial that is extremely accurate. I try to preserve the blade on that one by not using it much on rough cutoff. The Graule has a built in return and also a adjustable hydraulic dampener to prevent blade climb. I've run non negative blades in this with no issues. hard to argue against safety!

Back in the 50s and 60s my uncles had a lumber yard and planing mill. They used a big Comet radial to both crosscut and rip framing material. My dad as a contractor always had a radial on job sites back then. I think the portable chop saws ended all that.

My rough cutoff method now is evolving to the electric chain saw with a simple ladder jig. works also with a hand circular saw and very safe. i couldn't imagine rough cutting with a jig saw.
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[Warren Lake]

Killer set up and shop Joe. Nice.

Old guy said there was one german who did all on a radial and they all thought he was nuts. One thing is a radial is still a thing with a wood table so cast tables likely better. For the most part for me it was a rough cut saw I cant see doing that or dont want on on those compound sliding saws. I know some people have those in very high quality the radial for me is a fast rough cutting saw.

Didnt have many issues with pinching on the radial but did some of the times I tried to do stuff on sliding tables the excaliburs on the cabinet saw. On the radial the crown side to the back fence and it was predictable. I used to use the craftsman then poof it would shut off and have to wait cool and and clic the reset argh I think they said once that they had an issue with some heat overloads. Mine was gutless cause of it and why I switched to the skill saw. Not ideal but get the work chopped and continue on. This wadkin has a short stop auto brake and i want to run it then remove it after reading here that auto breaking wears capacitors in Rotos. Thanks for whoever posted that.

[Mark Gibney]

My Craftsman RAS does indeed shut off too frequently to be a dependable tool.
Otherwise great, but I find myself dragging out the little Hitachi SCMS to finish.

[andrew whicker]

For those who have used both.. are the modern omga's better than, equal to, worse than vintage heavy saws?

[brent stanley]

For reference, here are a number of modern European makes and models, and a few have prices included for reference. I have a couple of Wadkin crosscut/radial arm saws not represented here and they are very robust and designed for longevity and adjustability to make up for wear.

https://www.scosarg.ie/new-machines/saws/crosscut-saws.html

IMO, a radial arm saw is a great addition to a shop if you have the space and the knowhow to dial them in well such that you're never dissuaded from using it for things it excels at. Most things you can do on a RAS you can do another way, but it is great for some things and you'd be more efficient if you had it there ready to go.

[Dan Chouinard]

My Grandfathers Dewalt RAS (1950?) shares a bench with my Castle pocket hole machine. It gets far less usage now that there is an old Martin slider in the shop but still earns it keep. It is stationed right next to my assembly table and comes in real handy especially when making face frames as I like to cut spacers for aligning rails with stiles rather than trying to align with a pencil mark. Also use it when cross cutting short pieces and cutting scrap for kindling.

[Larry Edgerton]

For those who have used both.. are the modern omga's better than, equal to, worse than vintage heavy saws?

I have had both. I switched to the OMGA for the extended cut capability to fix a glitch in my process. I was surprised that it cut better than the old iron as it is considerably lighter. The arm is an aluminum casting, quite thick, with stainless ways for the 8 bearing carrier to run on. The eight bearings are in a X, so opposing bearings in two locations and they are adjustable, ways are replaceable. I used it to cut cabinet sides too length, always square and nice cuts. Overall it was better than I expected. I see the price has doubled since I bought mine. I just don't have room for it in my "Retirement" shop. wish I had not sold my commercial building, I'm working more now that I ever have. At 67 years old I don't see building a bigger shop as a smart move, but.......

I would give the nod to the old iron for working with big timbers. The OMGA is OK, has 5 HP, but the motor has much less mass that the old ones.

[Larry Edgerton]

It is stationed right next to my assembly table and comes in real handy especially when making face frames as I like to cut spacers for aligning rails with stiles rather than trying to align with a pencil mark.

I find as my eyes get older that is the way to go as well. I crosscut then rip in half so I have one for booth sides.

[jack duren]

I have a 12”Delta turret. I’ll continue to keep it. I mainly use it for dentil molding..

[jack duren]

I wouldn’t buy anything but a turret RAS..

[brent stanley]

I wouldn’t buy anything but a turret RAS..

Oh really? I'm aware of the pros and cons of the different styles, but what are the pros to a turret style that win you over?

[jack duren]

Never alignment problems..If you have to fight to keep it aligned, it’s not worth having..

[Benjimin Young]

I am moving to a new location and setting up shop from scratch all-beit in a smaller venue. But for now I plan to keep my craftsman RAS and sliding miter side by each. I built a disk sander table for it's OEM 10" disk sander disk and also like using it for dadoes. I will however loose the OEM stand for the RAS as I think I can build something a little more footprint efficient.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ive had few Dewalts big and small in my shop for rough cutoff. I just phased out the last one, a 12" downsizing a bit for semi retirement. If you have the space they are OK for rough cutting to length. Slider saw can work for shorter pieces but awkward. I put a auto return on the Dewalt and that adds a bit of safety. For rough cutoff another safety item is keeping a couple spacers handy for crooked material that is not touching the fence. the can cause a big blade pinch especially in thick hardwoods. I also have a German Graule radial that is extremely accurate. I try to preserve the blade on that one by not using it much on rough cutoff. The Graule has a built in return and also a adjustable hydraulic dampener to prevent blade climb. I've run non negative blades in this with no issues. hard to argue against safety!

Back in the 50s and 60s my uncles had a lumber yard and planing mill. They used a big Comet radial to both crosscut and rip framing material. My dad as a contractor always had a radial on job sites back then. I think the portable chop saws ended all that.

My rough cutoff method now is evolving to the electric chain saw with a simple ladder jig. works also with a hand circular saw and very safe. i couldn't imagine rough cutting with a jig saw.
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I'm perpetually on the hunt for one of these, Joe. Absolutely love the idea of a compact accurate radial saw. For parts, I feel the Omga is excellent, but for wider things and taller things I think the Graule is probably ideal. The largest model would be absolutely glorious for most shop-made timber framing work since it will cut 200mm (almost 8") high, and 20.5" deep. Having precisely square edges on material this large is wonderful for making accurate tenons. It's not necessary but it's really helpful to have.

WRT the OP's question, there are items that are desirable to have cut to a precise length that are very awkward to do on a sliding table saw. Long parts are hard to deal with on a slider, not impossible, but awkward. Much easier to have them up on a fixed table. The long stops on a slider tend to have a limitation on distance of around 9-10'.

On a RAS or chop saw setup you can have stops out as far as necessary for your shop and they can be made extremely accurate if so desired.

[brent stanley]

Brian, timberframing is one of the things I do for a living and very few shops use RASs at all, and if they do it's for small stuff like braces, struts or extremely small members like truss components and bracketry etc. The RAS will only give you an accurate cut if you can count on the timber being straight and square on your table and up against your fences, and unless you can run them across your jointer, they often aren't, especially if you've seasoned them a bit. Not many folks want to lift 400lb timbers (or more! I've worked with 2000lb timbers!) up onto a table anyway. I have two RASs, one swings and 18" blade that will crosscut 36" and the other a 14" good for 20 something and will be set up in the new shop for brace production. One for the end cuts, the other to hog away the cheek and shoulders. They will be extremely helpful for struts and bracketry and maybe parallel chord truss components, but the real timbers will be done on the sawhorses with skillsaws.

[Joe Calhoon]

I'm perpetually on the hunt for one of these, Joe. Absolutely love the idea of a compact accurate radial saw. For parts, I feel the Omga is excellent, but for wider things and taller things I think the Graule is probably ideal. The largest model would be absolutely glorious for most shop-made timber framing work since it will cut 200mm (almost 8") high, and 20.5" deep. Having precisely square edges on material this large is wonderful for making accurate tenons. It's not necessary but it's really helpful to have.

WRT the OP's question, there are items that are desirable to have cut to a precise length that are very awkward to do on a sliding table saw. Long parts are hard to deal with on a slider, not impossible, but awkward. Much easier to have them up on a fixed table. The long stops on a slider tend to have a limitation on distance of around 9-10'.


On a RAS or chop saw setup you can have stops out as far as necessary for your shop and they can be made extremely accurate if so desired.

Brian,
The Graule is the most accurate radial saw I have used. We set up a Omga radial in Bhutan. It was far better than any of the Dewalts I have owned but not as accurate as the Graule. It’s the design of the Graule is where the accuracy comes from.It will not do as many tasks as a conventional radial but cuts square and miters both ways very accurately. Who wants to rip on a radial anyway. Here is a picture of the large protractor and positive stops on the saw.
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The one downside of these saws is you cannot put a groover or dado in them. Graule makes a separate saw for trenching. I should use mine more for certain cuts. After owning several crappy radials I automatically go to the slider. Its awkward because you have to turn the workpiece every time. On a radial you can just keep pushing the material one direction.
When we toured UK joinery shops most had Graule's or Omga radials and separate trenching saws usually Graule or older UK iron like the Dominion in this pictures. A separate trenching saw would be a treat especially for double hung work. I think for your Japanese style timber work one of the would be useful. My little Graule will cut almost 6" thick.
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[Edward Weber]

The RAS will only give you an accurate cut if you can count on the timber being straight and square on your table and up against your fences, and unless you can run them across your jointer, they often aren't, especially if you've seasoned them a bit.

This is one of the big factors that scares some away from RAS's.
If the wood isn't firm against the fence, the blade can and will pull it until it is. Your typical home center 2x4 is not straight. This can cause sudden unexpected movement of the saw head and wood. Binding and burning can often occur, as well as the ruining of undergarments.
Any saw that utilizes a fence, needs to have wood with a straight reference surface for a safe, accurate cut. At least have the wood clamped securely.

[brent stanley]

Exactly, now if you could get an 800lb timber up on the benches in front of the saw it may have enough weight to stay put and maybe wouldn't matter so much if you're not doing a thru cut, but in the time it took you to muscle the beast up there and tap tap tap it in line with the cutting path of the blade, then repeat it when you roll it 180degrees to do the opposite shoulder, most folks could have finished the job with skillsaws twice over. Now if it's square stock and you can easily lift it onto the table, that's a different story.

Many times a year people see me cutting joinery with skillsaws and chisels right beside my RASs and ask me why I don't do it with the RAS. Then I ask them to place the 18', green 8x12 timber up on the bench for me so we can give it a test run!

[Brian Holcombe]

Brent, perhaps I should narrow the scope of my commentary. For Japanese traditional work within the envelop of the tea room, it involves a standard post size of approx 5 x 5. Larger stuff is fairly common in temple carpentry but not what I deal with most often. I tend to revolve my thinking about this, but it’s basically just making XL furniture in how it’s constructed.

The folks who do larger structural work and roof work tend to be similarly geared up as a western timber framer, leaning toward skil saws or Mafell stuff for most of the work.

For my work I joint everything and indoor work is often laminated similar to door stiles. This is a common practice now for show beams which are structural but want faces in the highest grade VG material.

The work I do is typically non-structural and non-load bearing and so I often make beams by laminating a poplar core and facing it with hardwood.

Common sizes are 5x5 for posts and 4x6 or 4x8 for beams. They’re typically in the weight range where I can handle them myself and they can be loaded onto stationary machinery. I’ve made beams in walnut and yellow cedar that look like perfect VG on three visible faces.

Joe, thanks for the details! Both of those would be excellent :D

[brent stanley]

Brent, perhaps I should narrow the scope of my commentary. For Japanese traditional work within the envelop of the tea room, it involves a standard post size of approx 5 x 5. Larger stuff is fairly common in temple carpentry but not what I deal with most often. I tend to revolve my thinking about this, but it’s basically just making XL furniture in how it’s constructed.

The folks who do larger structural work and roof work tend to be similarly geared up as a western timber framer, leaning toward skil saws or Mafell stuff for most of the work.

For my work I joint everything and indoor work is often laminated similar to door stiles. This is a common practice now for show beams which are structural but want faces in the highest grade VG material.

The work I do is typically non-structural and non-load bearing and so I often make beams by laminating a poplar core and facing it with hardwood.

Common sizes are 5x5 for posts and 4x6 or 4x8 for beams. They’re typically in the weight range where I can handle them myself and they can be loaded onto stationary machinery. I’ve made beams in walnut and yellow cedar that look like perfect VG on three visible faces.

Joe, thanks for the details! Both of those would be excellent :D

Hi Brian, those sizes are exactly what I was thinking would suit a RAS very well. I am incorporating more Japanese approaches , styles and joinery into my work all the time. Our house will be very heavily.inspire by Japanese approaches. Have you heard of the Menomonie Farmers market pavilion? One of my favorite modern timberframes, done by a couple of folks I know: https://exploremenomonie.com/events/menomonie-farmers-market-wednesday/

[Brian Holcombe]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

[John Pendery]

I have an Omga RN 700 that I use for anything from breaking down rough lumber to certain final dimension cuts and occasional dados. I can’t comprehend trying to rip anything on a radial arm saw. It’s not as accurate as my slider, but as Joe pointed out flipping material end for end on repeated length cuts can be a major pain. I can’t imagine getting rid of it unless I came across a Graule for sale in the states and Brian didn’t beat me to it! Good thing about Omga is parts are very easy to get and not much has changed in the designs. Used Omga’s are also easy to find for reasonable prices considering the quality of the saw.

I would love to get an opportunity to do more Japanese style timber framing that you guys are discussing. What little timber framing I’ve done involves very large circular saws, a woodmizer, heavy equipment, and a very sore back from bending over a chain mortiser all day!

[Joe Calhoon]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

Brian,
Chris was a amazing craftsman! I had a chance to visit him in his shop years ago. I think this timber might have been part of the project you mention. He gave me a demo using his hand planes. His passing is a great loss to woodworking.
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[jack duren]

There definitely a touchy tool. Something isn’t right , it will quickly let you know…

I leave mine setup for dados…I got tired of setting up for dados. If that’s all that saw does for me , I’m happy..

[brent stanley]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

If you can hunt around and find some additional pics of it, the scope and scale of it will blow your mind. Someone said it was the largest outdoor timberframe built in the last 100 years or something like that. The joinery is well executed and fascinating. I've borrowed a couple of things from it for my first workshop and my second will steal some more. I really enjoy Oxbow Design's Instagram. I talk with him and Jay fairly regularly about TFing and design.

I knew Chris actually. We used to talk a fair amount about shaper stuff and joinery. Talked with him a few days before he died, and have enjoyed going back through his work. He brought things to North America in a very tasteful way I thought....a real loss.

[Brian Holcombe]

Certainly miss Chris, he was a close friend and incredible craftsman. Safe to say he’s the one who most turned me onto German, English and Japanese machinery.

[brent stanley]

Certainly miss Chris, he was a close friend and incredible craftsman. Safe to say he’s the one who most turned me onto German, English and Japanese machinery.

Some day when I grow up I would like to have a super surfacer ...

[Brian Holcombe]

Some day when I grow up I would like to have a super surfacer ...

One of the best things I did was add a super surfacer. Finding one was a PITA and costly, as was repairing it, but it's one of the best additions to the shop. I originally regretted that I was only able to find an older machine but now I'm quite glad, it's very heavy duty. Doesn't have auto return but it's very heavy and works very well.

I had a project this past year where we added visible beams and T&G ceiling material. We surfaced thousands of linear feet of material in one day, all perfectly clean without skips or tearout, 6-7" wide. I was knee deep in full width shavings and it took one knife change.

Did the same for the interior millwork, all of it got super surfaced, did hundreds of feet of material in a day, then direct to oil finish. Took less oil since the wood absorbs less and was mirror-like after one coat. Cost zero in terms of sandpaper.

That would have been weeks of work by hand or multiple days with a sanding machine and much much more expensive in terms of consumables. Sanding would have required sealing.

It amazes me that these are not only not popular, they aren't in almost anyones shop. I know maybe 4-5 people that own them, all into Japanese work.

[brent stanley]

One of the best things I did was add a super surfacer. Finding one was a PITA and costly, as was repairing it, but it's one of the best additions to the shop. I originally regretted that I was only able to find an older machine but now I'm quite glad, it's very heavy duty. Doesn't have auto return but it's very heavy and works very well.

I had a project this past year where we added visible beams and T&G ceiling material. We surfaced thousands of linear feet of material in one day, all perfectly clean without skips or tearout, 6-7" wide. I was knee deep in full width shavings and it took one knife change.

Did the same for the interior millwork, all of it got super surfaced, did hundreds of feet of material in a day, then direct to oil finish. Took less oil since the wood absorbs less and was mirror-like after one coat. Cost zero in terms of sandpaper.

That would have been weeks of work by hand or multiple days with a sanding machine and much much more expensive in terms of consumables. Sanding would have required sealing.

It amazes me that these are not only not popular, they aren't in almost anyones shop. I know maybe 4-5 people that own them, all into Japanese work.

Wow! I'd never imagined using it for millwork, but the argument is sound! Thanks, now I want one even more!
I really prefer a planed or scraped surface to a sanded one and the SS would really make it fast and easy, thank you for the details. Do you find it difficult to set up and tune? Can you sharpen the blades yourself or do you send them out?

A chap I know up here (used to frequent this site) Mark Hennebury has restored and sold some over the years including a dedicated sharpener. One of my favorite woodworking YouTubers (Ishtani woodwork) uses one but I've been trying to figure out why he does for some projects and why not for others....

Thanks Brian,

B

[Brian Holcombe]

Mark is the man for super surfacers! They’re pretty easy to setup and tune. I changed the knife to a Kanefusa replaceable insert knife set, and so I just buy knives. They last a long time and produce an excellent finish. It adds a consumable to the machine but I’m happy with how they work.

Ive taken up to 10” wide shavings on this machine. It’s a sight to see a hand plane thin shaving that wide.

[Derek Kessler]

Considering your workshop setup, I'd say you already covering a wide range of woodworking applications. So the DeWalt RAS, while charming, may not offer significant additional benefits, especially given the limited space in your shop. About the machines on mobile bases, I agree that it would be handy for you to have a designated 'parking spot'. For me, what works is I group together the tools that I frequently use, and I place them close to my primary work area so I don't have to spend much time moving between stations.

[Warren Lake]

by the way its a radio alarm saw.

[Rod Sheridan]

by the way its a radio alarm saw.


When I hit 60 I had to upgrade to a 16” 10HP diesel radio alarm saw to avoid sleeping through the alarm.

Regards, Rod

[brent stanley]

Mark is the man for super surfacers! They’re pretty easy to setup and tune. I changed the knife to a Kanefusa replaceable insert knife set, and so I just buy knives. They last a long time and produce an excellent finish. It adds a consumable to the machine but I’m happy with how they work.

Ive taken up to 10” wide shavings on this machine. It’s a sight to see a hand plane thin shaving that wide.

Brian, could I bother you to take a picture of the insert style knife system you upgraded to? I'm really curious about it. Thank you,

Brent

[Warren Lake]

Rod not so sure about the Diesel. What no Tesla motor?

[Brian Holcombe]

Next time I take apart the knives I’ll take some photos. I look through my roll of photos and so far only have some of the group assembled.

[Rob Luter]

There’s need and there’s want. Do you use it every day? Would you be in the lurch without it? If yes, then that’s need.

if it sits idle most of the time and the utility is satisfied by other tools, that’s a want.

I had a really nice compound miter saw once. I bought it to use on a trim job when we did some remodeling. I saved a ton of money versus hiring someone and had a sweet saw for my shop afterwards. Then it gathered dust for two years before I sold it. I always wound up using an old fashioned miter box.

[jack duren]

I always want mine till I need it.. But I hate cutting dentil molding on th table saw