Odd gluelike "failure" Titebond III - insights?

[Marty Gulseth]

(Haven't been here for a while, lots of other distractions.) SO I recently, for what I intended to be a quickie Christmas present, bought one of the Woodcraft "Exotic wood cutting board kits" (brown heart, marble wood, purpleheart, wedge, maple) I THOUGHT I did a decent job of sanding the edges before gluing the various strips. I used my longtime go-to glue, Titebond III, manufacture date, as best I can tell, April 23. Glue-up and subsequent sanding seemed to go well. I was about to put on the final coat of oil finish, I noticed a slight split in one of the joints, and pulling a little, two of the joints completely separated. Examining the pieces, the other joints seem to be intact and strong. Looking closely at the two failed joints, it appears that the glue never even substantially penetrated the surfaces of the boards. Glue has been kept in my shop, well above freezing, since purchase in probably late spring, glue-up was done at about 65 F, and curing at no less than 57-58 for 24 hours + before removing clamps.

So I'm curious as to what may have gone amiss. Some kind of odd glue defect is, to my knowledge, unlikely but never say never. (But if that, why are the rest of the joints strong and intact?) Do some of those exotic woods "ooze" some strange residual oil that may have interfered with the glue? Or, entirely possible, did I just do something dumb? Any suggestions or insights? Thanks in advance, and Merry Christmas or whatever Season's Greeting you prefer!

Marty

[Bernie Kopfer]

I commiserate with your dilemma. I think we’ve all had glue failures that left us scratching our heads. But usually find out it was something we should have done differently/better. First thought is inadequate glue in joint. Second is clamping did not pull the wood together adequately. Third clamping pressure released too soon. Others might have more ideas.

[Michael Burnside]

Never used brown heart, but never had any issues with any of the other woods you listed. I rarely use TB III and instead use TB II, but I doubt that's an issue though. Only thing I can think of is that you waited too long and the glue started to set or the edge was contaminated?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Ok - what we know - two joints failed. Other joints held.
That points to something other than the glue being the problem.

Which of the woods are involved in the failures?

Surface "things" that are or can be problems are:
- oil
-silicone
-glossy surface

Were the edges of the failures machined - sawed - sanded in any way?
Sanding to too high a grit - such as 320 440 and above have been known to leave too smooth a surface for glue to adhere.
Which woods are involved? Some can be sanded more than others with no ill effects.
Silicone is a major buzz kill since it can transfer so easily. In this case though, it's doubtful because it isn't universal. Ditto for oil - as a contaminate, but, not as a component of wood species - which goes back to which woods are involved?

[Mel Fulks]

Been a lot of complaints about Titebond 3. That’s all I know, I’ve never used it.

[Ron Citerone]

I used titebondIII a long while back and had a failure. Foget the exact details but I decided never to use it again. Love titebondII my go to glue.

[roger wiegand]

A little known factoid about titebond 3, conveyed by one of the company chemists at a trade show, is that components in it settle out during storage, and that thorough mixing is essential to success with it. Nothing in their product literature conveys this, but the chemist's reaction was "You didn't mix it?? Well of course it failed". Same is not true of TB1 or 2, but I mix them up anyway if they've been sitting a while

I have not confirmed this by experiment. At the least, mixing can't hurt.

[James Jayko]

I would guess either 1. weird oils in exotic woods (IE use acetone before glueup), or 2. what seems way less likely given the thorough nature of your post, you squeezed out all the glue with too much clamping pressure? I've been known to make that mistake one or 50 times.

[George Yetka]

I have a gallon purchased at about the same time you believe yours is from. I havent gotten to it yet but for sure it has seperated. I opened a 18 month old quart yesterday and mixed thoroughly removed a pint and mixed each of those on their own thoroughly as well. On top of that it does turn eventually.

[Cameron Wood]

A little known factoid about titebond 3, conveyed by one of the company chemists at a trade show, is that components in it settle out during storage, and that thorough mixing is essential to success with it. Nothing in their product literature conveys this, but the chemist's reaction was "You didn't mix it?? Well of course it failed". Same is not true of TB1 or 2, but I mix them up anyway if they've been sitting a while

I have not confirmed this by experiment. At the least, mixing can't hurt.


I've had a couple of failures- one at low temps. This is good to know.

[Bob Coates]

I use tb iii for all my segmented bowls and vases. Now I have had failure between some segments, BUT discovered that I missed putting glue on those segments. :rolleyes:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I don't know that I have used Titebond III. I do know I've read that some exotic hardwoods contain an oil that one should remove by wiping with a solvent before glueing up.

[Andrew Hughes]

I’ve found some domestic woods are resistant to glue.
Alder is one that I’ve seen titebond glue fail despite my consistent preparation. I don’t sand so normally I glue edges off the jointer or handplane but not with Alder. Abraded the surface with 220 grit is better. The trees do grow on the sides of streams and rivers. Half land half water. So they have some water resistant some boards maybe more then others.
Best thing a woodworker can do is learn about the woods they like and not rely on Youtube or perfect strangers for the truth.
Test test and test more
Good Luck

[Marty Gulseth]

Hey all, thanks for all of the insights and comments. After posting my query this AM, I also went by the local Woodcraft and posed my question.

A summary of what I think that I've learned and tentatively concluded:

1. While I wasn't aware that Titebond III needed to be re-mixed, I'm now reasonably sure that the glue isn't the main issue:
- The "kit" came as a bunch of strips. I applied the glue to the edge of each strip one at a time and "stacked" the strips in an improvised fixture, clamping after the whole "sandwich" was in place. Total time applying glue and stacking was about five minutes or less.
- Joints before and after the two failed joints in the stacking order held with no problem.
- I did a test glue-up on some scrap pieces using the same glue and the test held (I did use domestic wood, more on this detail below)

2. The summarized collective "street wisdom" of the Woodcraft folks was that exotic woods are generally much more "oily" than domestic species, and they can often form an oily film on the surface which will interfere with glue adhesion.I would have thought that sanding the surfaces to be glued would have mitigated any oil issues, but perhaps not. When I examined the surfaces of the failed joints, the sides of the maple strips showed signs of very inconsistent glue adhesion, while the ides of the exotic wood strips showed absolutely no indication of glue adhesion.

So, my tentative conclusion is that oils, or perhaps some other contaminant in the exotics, interfered with the glue. The Woodcraft people suggested that I clean the edges of the exotics with acetone prior to re-gluing, but given that this is a cutting board and will have food contact, I'm not completely comfortable with using acetone. Anyone have other thoughts? Thanks again!

EDIT: I sanded the edges of all strips to either 180 or 220, I was using sanding blocks that already had paper installed. I VERY SELDOM use anything finer than 220 and when I do, that's a light hand-sand operation.
Exotics involved ih the failed joints ( the other sides of the joints were maple) Brownheart and marblewood. The purpleheart and wedge strips bonded well to the adjacent maple.
QUESTION - If I had, in fact, clamped the "sandwich" too tightly, would not at least a few more of the other joints also have shown signs of at least partial separation?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Acetone is fine to use to wipe the wood down.
Just let it sit for 15 min to a half hour so all of the acetone can flash off.

The Wood Encyclopedia says this about Marblewood:
"Workability: (https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-workability/) Tends to be difficult to work on account of its high density. Marblewood can have a moderate to severe blunting effect on tool cutters. Glues, turns, and finishes well—though there is a high risk of checking and resin exudation during drying."


The Wood Encyclopedia doesn't mention any problems with Brownheart.

I'd give Franklin (Titebond) support a call and see if they can shed more light on it.

1-800-877-4583
1.800.347.4583

[Ron Citerone]

Others may offer another opinion on the acetone and would like to hear them. I feel it evaporates so well that if you give it a week or so before applying finish the board I don't see any problem with it. A week is overkill but if you are working on several projects as discussed in another thread that's the way I would do it.

With that said I would avoid gluing any wood that requires an acetone wipe. I know many are beautiful and add a great accent look. It might be Mother Nature saying it wasn't meant to be.

[roger wiegand]

Acetone is extremely volatile. It will be completely evaporated in a a matter of minutes. Your body produces quite a bit of it every day as a matter of normal metabolism, you breathe it out when your blood exchanges gasses with the air in your lungs.

[Ron Citerone]

Acetone is extremely volatile. It will be completely evaporated in a a matter of minutes. Your body produces quite a bit of it every day as a matter of normal metabolism, you breathe it out when your blood exchanges gasses with the air in your lungs.
Thanks! Never new about the body producing it.

[John C Bush]

I made a fly fishing landing net for a friend. Thought I'd make it "special" for him and I used two strips of bloodwood and one inner of oak. Tough to steam and bend the bloodwood but
got it in the jig with TBIII. Turned out beautiflly--but as I was stringing the net I torqued the frame and it delaminated. Imagine the grief I woiuld get if he lost the prize winning stealhead catch of a lifetime because my choice of wood and glue!!

[Marty Gulseth]

It’s been a few days, I’ve been a bit distracted. (And, the forum has been BUSY!) For those who may be interested. Did some test glue-ups, convinced myself that my glue was OK. Learned about the oils/resins in tropical hardwoods and potential effect on glues. I settled on sanding the separated edges to 180 (or maybe 220, already in my sanding block, then wiped with alcohol, it was what I had on hand. Redid the glue on the two failed edges, let cure about 30 hours. All good after, gift gets wrapped tomorrow ( that detail NOT my department!)

[Marty Gulseth]

It’s been a few days, I’ve been a bit distracted. (And, the forum has been BUSY!) For those who may be interested. Did some test glue-ups, convinced myself that my glue was OK. Learned about the oils/resins in tropical hardwoods and potential effect on glues. I settled on sanding the separated edges to 180 (or maybe 220, already in my sanding block,) then wiped with alcohol, it was what I had on hand. Redid the glue on the two failed edges, let cure about 30 hours. All good after, gift gets wrapped tomorrow ( that detail NOT my department!)

[Rich Engelhardt]

Thanks for coming back to this.
I was sort of hoping you had called Franklin tech support to see what they thought.
It sounds like some sort of contamination - possibly due to oils in the wood - was at fault.

[Curt Harms]

It would be interesting to hear what Franklin Intl. has to say. What I remember attributed to a tech at Franklin Intl. is that the perfect glue joint using titebond is smooth straight edges and clamped so the glue thickness is 1 molecule. It seems unlikely to me that the clamps we use in home shops have enough clamping force to squeeze joints such that there is not one molecule of glue remaining. Of course if the joints are imperfect that changes the conditions.

[John TenEyck]

Good deal. I think that 30 cure helped, too, considering you were using bent laminations with some spring back.

I hope your friend does indeed land the catch of a lifetime in the net you made for him.

John

[Marty Gulseth]

Thanks for coming back to this.
I was sort of hoping you had called Franklin tech support to see what they thought.
It sounds like some sort of contamination - possibly due to oils in the wood - was at fault.

I am now convinced that oil in the exotics was the culprit. I may have failed to mention, but I did a test glue-up on some domestic scrap with the glue on hand. The joint held intact, including serving my clamping the piece in a vice and pounding the joint with a small sledge! That convinced me that the glue was OK.

[Rob Luter]

I'm glad that the issue seems to be resolved. By the sounds of things all you did to the edges was sand them? I ask because of an instructional video I saw on planing glue line surfaces with a jointer. The demonstrator made it a point to say the jointer (or any other plane used to prep edges to be glued) should never have wax applied to the sole. It might slide better, but any wax deposits left on the edge will reject glue. While that seems like a "Mr. Obvious" kind of thing, I'd never thought of it.