A whole new perspective on Lie-Nielsen Hand Planes

[Rich Konopka]

This video is amazing and shows how many people are involved with building a Lie-Nielsen hand plane.

https://youtu.be/LHaXAFh83VE?feature=shared

[Mike Cutler]

They make nice products. I have a small investment in their planes and chisels.
I know that a lot of folks will say that they have $20.00 flea market purchased Stanley plane, or a $5.00 Stanley 750, that does just as good a job, and so do I have those, but I still enjoy using the LN planes, and chisels, I have. That low angle Jack is a pure joy to use.
They're also very nice folks if you should ever get the chance to visit with them.

[Don Stephan]

My first thought, with all that work, how can they sell the plane at such a low price.

[Larry Frank]

Interesting video showing all that goes into producing a plane. I was very surprised with the lack of safety in the foundry. There was very little appropriate safety clothes or.other safety items. One guy was even wearing a short sleeve shirt. I worked with liquid steel and know how dangerous it is and would not come near it with what they had on

[Jim Koepke]

That low angle Jack is a pure joy to use.

My LN LAJ was purchased to use as a shooting plane. At the time LN nor LV offered a specialized plane for shooting.

It does work very well for the work where one would use a #5 size bench plane.

This is from an old post on thin shavings:


As one who enjoys the challenge of a thin shaving it was impressive to me.

The title was what got me to look.

My best shaving with an LN #62 was ~0.0004" if my memory is serving.

The wood used in the Japanese plane videos looks to have a better cell structure than the big box fir in my shop. Could that make much of a difference?

jtk

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?248178

jtk

[Rich Konopka]

Interesting video showing all that goes into producing a plane. I was very surprised with the lack of safety in the foundry. There was very little appropriate safety clothes or.other safety items. One guy was even wearing a short sleeve shirt. I worked with liquid steel and know how dangerous it is and would not come near it with what they had on

I thought the same thing.

[fritz eng]

Always looking for an "excuse" to use my LN 5 1/2. Pure joy!

[Tom Bussey]

As far as safety goes a camera is only 2d and not 3d. So things may appear closer than they are. Most people have no idea how hot it is a foundry. And cotton lets the body breath, helps with heat stroke and heat exhaustion. Also OSHA has control over protective gear and usually they go to extremes. Also there is no amount of protective gear that can protect anyone from a liquid iron. The foundry has safety guidelines and it makes sure they are followed. Again the guy with the tee shirt could have 5-6 foot away and the camera can't show that. So my question is who do you think you are that when you watch a short video can deem that it is unsafe. Obviously the employer didn't think it was unsafe or he wouldn't be allowed to work in what he had on.

How many of you know that the pattern that was being rammed up is is a Match plate pattern. If you don't know that then how do you determine that something is unsafe. Personally I would be afraid of getting Black lung after a few years. I have a friend than has 1 to 3 years to live because of mist problems with breathing mist that came off a surface grinder. No body commented on that . Also how about the coolant off the cutting tools?

Building all of the work holders, jigs and fixtures that were viewed in the film is what I do for a living as a Tool and die maker. And honestly I didn't see one operation that wasn't necessary. I though it was interesting but nothing out of the ordinally.

[steven c newman]

Way about my "Pay Grade"...says the guy with a Wood River No. 62.....

[Larry Frank]

Who am I to make comments??? I worked more than 20 years in an electric arc Steelmaking operation where we handled ladles with more than 100 tons of liquid steel at 3000 F. I have seen first hand what a steel spill can do to a person. Liquid iron or steel can splatter much farther than 5 or 6 feet. We wore green flame resistant clothes, hard hats, metatarsal shoes, aluminized jackets and special glasses. I have a personal idea how hot it is and routinely sweated my butt off. A cotton tee shirt provides no protection from splatter, sparks or heat.

[Keegan Shields]

That’s game, set, match I believe…

It never ceases to amaze me how varied the work experiences are of the members on SMC.

As a side note, looks like LN outsources their castings. The last frame of the video says “in association with Enterprise Foundry”. Unless LN owns Enterprise Foundry…

https://enterprisefoundry.com/

[Dave Anderson NH]

Good catch Keegan. L-N did have a small foundry in the original building back some 30+ years ago. Tom started it when no casting house thought his business large enough to bother doing his work. They even made their own patterns in-house at the time. The pattern makers work area was off the main corridor on the second floor. Kind of just a wide spot under the eaves. Later as the number of products and volume grew outside foundries became interested and started doing his work.

[Tom Bussey]

Yes I agree with you. As far as clothing goes. Personally I would have wanted more protection. Nothing the was warn by anyone in the whole video offered any protection. The John Deere Foundry, which does all the foundry work for the entire company requires Metatarsal shoes in the foundry as well as several other areas of the plant.. It is basically has a flap that covers the top of the foot which helps protects the top of the foot from dropping on it. It is a step above steel toed shoes. Steel toed shoes and safety classes are pretty much industry standards for any form of manufacturing. Safety regulation can very with the different operations of the manufacturing facility.

I grew up with 3 foundries within 3 blocks of my home .One was an Aluminum, Brass, and Bronze foundry. Hawkeye Steel , which made Pride of Farm equipment which did brass and Herford's foundry which poured Cast iron. The heat and smell that came out of the Headford foundry as we walked by told me that I didn't want to work in a foundry.

So again it is the foundry in questions, safety practices that are the governing thing here and not your idea of what they should be. And again OSHA requirements inter in.

Personally, in the end it is me and me alone that is responsible for my safety. Not a list of rules. It is not your responsibility to call out a safety violation as you see it . It is a safety violation because you see it that way? Just because you see it that way doesn't mean it is true. The company allowed him to dress that way. It is the company's responsibility to furnish related safety equipment. .

I indentured myself in a 4 years apprenticeship so I would not have work in a foundry or any other place I didn't want to. Actually I also served a 4 year apprenticeship as a mold maker also so I have journeyman papers for both. I also taught Manufacturing Process at the college level So I have more than a little knowledge of the subject.

Anyway I watched the video for what it is, and that was showing what all is involved with the machining of the plane from start to finish for someone not familiar with the manufacturing process.

My dad was a smoker and a heavy one in his later years. He died of acute lung disease. He was never called out for a safety violation. My sister died of lung cancer, same thing. I thought of black lung which is more common than one realizes in foundry workers. The person ramming the mold had no lung protection but I just took the video for what it was worth and stayed off the soap box.

[Jim Koepke]

Safety is important on the job, but some companies put on a safety "song & dance" but don't really enforce their guidelines until they want to get rid of somebody.

After 9/11, my last employer felt it would be a good idea for everyone who worked in a public area to wear a yellow vest. Of course the ones they provided were not very good and did not breath. Everyone hated wearing them because they caused the wearer to overheat even on cool days.

Most of us kept them close at hand so they could be put on quickly in case it was needed. One guy left his in his locker. He also insisted on not paying his union dues and a few other things to make him a thorn in everyone's soft spots. When he got caught not wearing his vest, he was used to set an example.

There were actually people who died on the job because of lax safety adherence. Wearing a vest would not have prevented their demise.

Another place I worked had a motto posted all over the place, "No job is so important and no service so urgent - that we cannot take time to perform our work safely." Likewise, it went out the window when a supervisor wanted something done now.

jtk

[Larry Frank]

Safety is difficult from both sides... Management and employees. There are some management with ridiculous styles and some employees who refuse to follow safety guidelines. Both groups will blame each other constantly for everything. It is so senseless and accomplishes nothing.

Once in awhile the two groups will work together to put a good program together.

Working together means all people trying to comply with OSHA rules even though people may not agree with them.

[Mark Gibney]

Great video. Such an intensive process, with such care taken at each step.
I'll take my LN low angle jack plane out later and bat my eyelids at it.

[Tom Bender]

I worked as a mechanical engineer in a big foundry. Designing ventilation, conveyors etc meant getting close to all the operations. Cotton clothing was required because it will not melt onto skin and is not very combustable. Very tight fitting safety glasses were required, especially in the finishing department where huge shot blasting machines leaked a bit. A stinging whack in the face was common. In the Melt Shop, spilled iron would splash really far, much further than water would go. Tiny drops would burn little holes in clothes but tended to bounce off skin. After a decade there all my work clothed, including socks and underwear had holes. Except for my leather shoes, they only had holes in the laces.

The people close to the molten iron had heavy reflective clothing which they wore as needed. Rules? It was a long time ago.

Lung protection? that was my job and I loved it.

[Warren Mickley]

There certainly are issues with Lie Nielsen planes, but they have more to do with design than manufacturing. The limiting factor is their knowledge of planing.

[Phil Gaudio]

There certainly are issues with Lie Nielsen planes, but they have more to do with design than manufacturing. The limiting factor is their knowledge of planing.

Warren: please expand on this issue of their "knowledge of planing". Phil

[Warren Mickley]

Some quick notes:

Blade: Lie Nielsen made a thicker blade than the Bailey design and bragged about it as a positive feature. At the time may gurus claimed that thick blades would eliminate tear out, and some even made blades 1/4inch thick. It is a fallacy.

Steel: Lie Nielsen continues to use A2 steel for plane irons even though the edge forms small chips, and it does not get as sharp as carbon steel. The advantages are way outweighed by the disadvantages and the planes with these irons underperform.

Cap Iron: Lie Nielsen made an "improved chipbreaker" which eliminated the traditional hump and renders it ineffective. On one early model the "improved chipbreaker" was so short that if it was put up near the edge of the iron, the iron could not protrude enough to cut wood. They continue to promote high angle planing, a clumsy remedy for tearout. It could be they suppress cap iron knowledge in order to sell high angle planes, but I have always thought it just ignorance
on their part.

Weight: Lie Nielsen chose the Bedrock design for their planes even though it was historically never very popular. The price of used Bedrock planes is higher than standard planes, but this is more because of their rarity and collectors wanting a complete set. The Lie Nielsen planes are even heavier than the Bedrock line. A common fallacy of previous years was that a heavy plane has more momentum to "power through the cut". The momentum does not come out of thin air; it arises from the work of the guy wielding the plane. Heavy planes are clumsier and more tiring.

[Edward Weber]

Interesting video showing all that goes into producing a plane. I was very surprised with the lack of safety in the foundry. There was very little appropriate safety clothes or.other safety items. One guy was even wearing a short sleeve shirt. I worked with liquid steel and know how dangerous it is and would not come near it with what they had on

I just got around to watching this and had the exact same thoughts.
i'm sure all of these guys have been doing this for years blah, blah blah. This place is a safety nightmare, someone needs to call CCOHS.

[Phil Gaudio]

I just got around to watching this and had the exact same thoughts.
i'm sure all of these guys have been doing this for years blah, blah blah. This place is a safety nightmare, someone needs to call CCOHS.

Those "down easters' are a pretty tough crew.

[Charles Edward]

Meanwhile a real working furnituremaker with verifiable bona fides, happy to show his work, can be seen using Lie-Nielsen planes in practically every one of these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/@Doucetteandwolfefurniture

I guess he's just stumbling his way to some of the best reproduction work on the planet.

[Mike Brady]

Gosh, Warren Mickley, I don't understand how LN has made it this far without your expertise. Mr. Lie-Nielsen must feel crushed by criticism. Your work must me be exceptional, except I don't recall ever seeing even one photo of yours in these, or any, pages.

[steven c newman]

Warren might not even like the saw I'm using..
512744
While just sitting down on the Job...

[Mike Henderson]

Beautiful work, but being one of the workers, doing the same thing over and over on an assembly line would drive me crazy.

Mike

[steven c newman]

BTDT....Gray Iron ain't that fun...BTW

[steven c newman]

Gray Iron.....parts for Pipe Wrenches, small vise castings, blanks for Browning Gears, small fishing boat anchors...LARGE water valves...Shake out/ inspection...molder's assistant...hydraulic brake master cylinders....

2 summers worth...

[Derek Cohen]

Some quick notes:

Blade: Lie Nielsen made a thicker blade than the Bailey design and bragged about it as a positive feature. At the time may gurus claimed that thick blades would eliminate tear out, and some even made blades 1/4inch thick. It is a fallacy.

Steel: Lie Nielsen continues to use A2 steel for plane irons even though the edge forms small chips, and it does not get as sharp as carbon steel. The advantages are way outweighed by the disadvantages and the planes with these irons underperform.

Cap Iron: Lie Nielsen made an "improved chipbreaker" which eliminated the traditional hump and renders it ineffective. On one early model the "improved chipbreaker" was so short that if it was put up near the edge of the iron, the iron could not protrude enough to cut wood. They continue to promote high angle planing, a clumsy remedy for tearout. It could be they suppress cap iron knowledge in order to sell high angle planes, but I have always thought it just ignorance
on their part.

Weight: Lie Nielsen chose the Bedrock design for their planes even though it was historically never very popular. The price of used Bedrock planes is higher than standard planes, but this is more because of their rarity and collectors wanting a complete set. The Lie Nielsen planes are even heavier than the Bedrock line. A common fallacy of previous years was that a heavy plane has more momentum to "power through the cut". The momentum does not come out of thin air; it arises from the work of the guy wielding the plane. Heavy planes are clumsier and more tiring.


Warren, there is much you write with which I agree. Also some factors which are not relevant.

Firstly that 5/16" thick blade. I agree with you that it is unnecessarily thick, but I have a good idea why it is so, and will remain so. Why 5/16"? Well, that is how thick infill planes, such as Spier, Mathieson and Norris, would use. The Stanley #4 1/2 was designed to compete with these infills, and it is not a big leap to understand the choice of 5/16" thickness for a line of premier hand planes.

Further, at the time of these first bench planes being constructed by LN, the consensus belief was that tear out was best controlled by either/both a tight mouth and a higher cutting angle. Infill planes used 47 degrees, and cutting angles around 50-55 were considered "high" (outside Australia, where 60 degrees would be better for the local hardwoods). The thicker blades were never for tear out, but for controlling chatter, and they continue to do this very well. But is is overkill. My LN planes - a #3 and a #4 1/2 Anniversary - came with A2 5/16" blades, but I use 1/8" PM-V11 in them.

So why does the 5/16" thick blades continue (with other modern makers as well)? Two reasons I can think of: one is that there is the perception by buyers that "thicker is better". The other is that a thinner blade will require some re-tooling by LN. Yes, the frog can be adjusted to close the mouth, but there is not a lot of adjustment length to do this.

The higher mass of the LN (compared with Stanley) is not significant if you are an amateur and use machines as well. "Lighter is better" is only a factor is using these planes for extended periods. For the average amateur, the extra mass is really quite handy .... I am not saying that more mass creates a better working plane - mass has no part to play here ... I am saying that more mass increases control when all one is doing is smoothing or jointing.

I think that criticisms over the chipbreaker are overdone. Yes, there may have been years of production of short chipbreakers, ones that do not close up for planing interlocked grain. However the part played by the chipbreaker really only became understood by most (myself included) from 2012. I still do not see LN-made videos offering advice about setting up a hand plane with the chipbreaker. Like you, I perceive that they view higher cutting angles - by way of higher angled frogs - to tame tear out. Everyone has copied the "Improved Chipbreaker", and there has not been any progress in its design. What I see missing is some curve to the body. These chipbreakers are too flat and, when tightened down, the leading edge can open up. The leading edge is 30 degrees, which is far too low for function. I add some bend to the body. I also add a curved leading edge of around 75-80 degrees.

I still do not like the Stanley-style of chipbreaker. They are too thin - too floppy - for my liking, and either open up at the leading edge, or creep forward when tightened down.

A2 steel is not my favourite, although it still performs very well. I would prefer O1 for the fine edge it can achieve. However O1 simply struggles to hold an edge in my local woods, and PM-V11 is the best compromise for quality of edge, both fineness of the grain and edge holding.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Edward]

God-awful piece of garbage:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aJ7-QekNhWs

[steven c newman]

The plane itself? Or, the video?

Currently have a Stanley No. 4-1/2c, Type 11 IN my shop, and working nicely, thank you very much....Plus there is a Sargent No. 410c, type4 on "Stand-by" in the tool cabinet....No issues.

[Charles Edward]

The plane itself? Or, the video?

Currently have a Stanley No. 4-1/2c, Type 11 IN my shop, and working nicely, thank you very much....Plus there is a Sargent No. 410c, type4 on "Stand-by" in the tool cabinet....No issues.

Sarcastic/sardonic...

The plane was working rather well out of the box, despite those posters claiming the tool is essentially garbage.

Fair disclosure: I do not own any L-N bench planes.

[Steve Demuth]

Again the guy with the tee shirt could have 5-6 foot away and the camera can't show that.

Actually, he was the one pulling the ladle to the molds. Literally holding on to the ladle, bare arms no more than a foot above the melt at one point.

[Mike Shields]

Great video! Thanks for sharing.

Now if I can only find one in stock (as opposed to back ordered) to purchase....