First Post - New Machines - $30k budget

[Al Flasi]

Greetings All :D
First time poster. amateur woodworker

I am planning my first real workshop, gleefully dizzy, and thinking about some machines. hope you guys could set me straight

At first I was in love with 5 combo machines especially Felder's CF 741, but researching around the forum, I found out that separates are better if there's space for them.

so instead, i am thinking on going for the KF 700 S with AD741. or SCM ST 4e with fs41es.

I have contacted local suppliers for quotes (I am not in the USA), funnily the Felder rep instead recommended some hammer machines instead of giving me quotes for machines I Asked for. strangely the Minimax rep also recommended the Minimax cu410 classic so I asked again for quotes on the machines i picked and I'm still waiting for a response. I got the feeling that the reps from both companies were just trying to get rid of their stocks.

from what I read and seen, I felt that Hammer brand machines were....hmm.. slightly problematic and much lower in quality than the Felder brand. what do people here think of Hammer recently?


Being new to woodworking, will getting higher quality machines help make things easier, faster, more fun and safer?:confused:

[Rick Potter]

This thread is going to be fun to watch, as we all love to vicariously spend other peoples money.

Seriously though, if you are a beginner, it might be more fun to start with lesser equipment and work with it for a while while you acclimate to woodworking. Then, it will be able for you to know much better what equipment you really want.

Depending on where you live this may be difficult, but I thought I should mention it.

[Al Flasi]

I have some woodworking equipment like a contractors table saw, mitre saw and other small power tools...
I have made a few simple DIY projects using them.

My main issue is that s4s lumber is very expensive, I would like to make my own.

[George Yetka]

Hammer is quality stuff it just lacks bells and whistles and Super quality of its big brother. Will this be Hobby/work? If work, what are you doing? If this is Hobby, Im all for having nice tools but you would be stepping into a shop that lifetime pro woodworkers would dream of.

[Tom Levy]

If you have to ask this question I would suggest a different approach. Put your budget on hold except for a few thousand to take some furniture building classes with a reputable school or instructor. Make some projects in a stocked shop with expert guidance. Then you’ll know what you like making and which machines to buy with the remaining 25k. Otherwise it’s likely you’ll end up making some very expensive mistakes.

[Al Flasi]

Thanks for all the eye opening replies. I really appreciate it.

I guess I was trying to compensate for my lack of skill by trying to buy quality equipment.
In all honesty, woodworking is a hobby that I dream of one day becoming decent at it to be able to make a living.
I find myself now in a fortunate position of having the funds to create the dream workshop. But I guess that I should better invest in myself first.

[Rod Sheridan]

Having owned a Hammer A3-31 since 2008 and a B3 saw/shaper since 2010, I love them.

The A3 had a capacitor failure about 5 years ago, still works perfectly.

The B3 has had no failures, both machines have annual maintenance performed by me.

I wouldn’t hesitate to buy them again.

Annual usage is approximately 200 hours.

4 function combination machines are space effective, however more time is spent converting from one function to another than with 2 dual function machines.

Regards, Rod

Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Personally, I think the "combination" of a slider with or without a shaper plus a jointer/thicknesser makes for a great "heart of the shop" for a one person shop. I like having the jointer/thicknesser separate from the saw because I tend to bounce between them...I flatten first, and unless I miscalculate, I don't return to the jointer function. It's thickness and then straight line, and size at the saw. No need to return the edges to the jointer if one uses the wagon for the ripping and the material is already flat. I'm in the SCM/Minimax ecosystem but could be perfectly happy with the Felder/Hammer arena...I just started where I did and that's where I've stayed.

The Hammer line from Felder is not "inferior" in any way. It's a cost effective way to get Felder technology for folks who are not hammering on the machines in production (pardon the expression). The same is true with SCM...the Minimax tools are great when the higher end machines are not actually needed. Of course, both companies and their authorized sellers will be perfectly happy to sell you the top level gear if you want it. :)

[andrew whicker]

Obviously the main equipment is the fun stuff to spend money on, but if I had 30k and spent all of it on big equipment I'd have nothing left over for all the other stuff...

Routers, hand planes, chisels, saws, wrenches, clamps, drills, drivers, circ saws, jig saws, levels, rulers, marking gages etc etc.

I have some decent equipment by now but all of it is auction items (fixed up and repaired by yours truly). My real money is actually in the other tools and equipment.

[Jim Becker]

Andrew is correct...unless that $30K equivalent is for power tools only, then there are many things to buy. But for power tools, you also need to invest in a good dust collector. I use the Harvey G700 for that now and it services my machines very well and at a remarkably lower decibel level than the big cyclone I had in my old shop. DC can't be an afterthought...it's important for personal health as well as for keeping machines operating better.

[andrew whicker]

I just did the rough math while looking around my shop:

18 inch Planer
9 hp tilting shaper
Rockwell 16 RAS radial saw
Centauro 600
Delta unisaw (3hp)
Delta 8 inch jointer

Roughly spent 10k on all of the above (including repairs etc). I know for a fact my "other stuff" is well above 10k.

For what it's worth. New equipment does sound fun though : )

[Aaron Inami]

For saws, I personally like the Felder stuff better. The K700 series has a better cross-cut fence than the Minimax stuff. In my opinion, the saw actually looks nicer too. That being said, there is a very cost-effective DRO crosscut system available for the Minimax:

https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/907-3037-001/

The Hammer saws are okay, but there are going to be small annoyances because certain things are not designed as well as the Felder K700 level. They are much cheaper, though.

For the jointer/planer, I would actually lean towards the Minimax FS41ES, like you have in your post. This is also on my future list, as I have read about so many problems with the Felder jointer/planers (including the AD741 and AD941).

The combo machines are good if you are severely space limited. I have a friend who owns a cu410es combo. There are compromises, though. If you want to use the rip fence for anything longer than 12-14", it's a pain in the butt. Also, the jointer fence is not as good since it's from the fs41c machine. There is no over-head saw guard dust collector option for the combo machines (the jointer would get in the way of the overhead support).

[Mike Wilkins]

Sliding table saw, jointer/planer combo, a good bandsaw, and dust processor is where I would start. A good selection of hand-held power tools and hand tools, working in concert with the big machines, and you can make just about anything. I agree with the idea of taking some classes first; that would give you a good idea of what you need to get rolling.
I have 2 Hammer machines and love them both (A3-41 and the F3 shaper). These are first quality machines without all of the bells and whistles of the Felder line-up.

[Richard Coers]

A combination machine is not the best way to process a bunch of rough sawn lumber. You do get a wide jointer, but not a wide planer. Flipping the tables and cranking the planer tables up to go from the jointer and planer is not my favorite thing.

[Ned Otter]

Hi Al,

I originally took the "buy lower quality equipment" route to see if I liked woodworking enough. I donated almost all of that equipment to a neighbor 2 years ago, when I purchased SCM. I could not get wood to be flat and square with that equipment, it was quite frustrating.

As others have said, there are many, many items you'll need aside from the basic set of machines. Not sure what your flooring looks like, but in my case it was ancient and thin concrete, and I had to spend additional money to cover the floors with 1" foam and Advantech (excellent advice given on this site). I went with separate jointer and planer even though my shop is on the narrow side, couldn't see how a combo workflow would work for me.

Dust collection, ducting for dust collection, and electrical work all add up. SCM machines don't come with any cords or plugs, so that was another cost. For my slider I also added an aftermarket parallel fence, and Mac's phenomenal Air Clamps (had to purchase a compressor for them as well). There's lots of tooling required to make all of this stuff work.

I also paid riggers to get the machines into my shop, as it's 100 of unlevel grass from my driveway to the shop.

Wonder if you've considered purchasing the equipment used, as it would allow you to get lots of other items you'll require.

I kept a fairly detailed list of my purchases over the last 2 years, feel free to DM me for details.

Good luck --

Ned

[Thomas McCurnin]

Make your own lumber?

OK, you'll need some serious space, like 30-40 feet of clear unobstructed space. A simple 8 foot board needs about 20 feet to saw the darn thing, 8 feet in front of the saw and 8 feet in back.

You'll need wide jointer, planer and wide belt sander.

You'll need dust control for these, as they really spit out wood debris.

Lumber is thick stuff, so a 12" table saw is probably on your list.

Re-sawing on the band saw is necessary as well, so add a 20" band saw.

Add several work benches for operations

This sounds like 1000 square feet to me.

Yes, lumber is expensive, but cheaper than buying or building a 1000 square foot shop and stocking it.

But hey, if you've got that kinda money, go for it.

[Greg Quenneville]

My only advice is, space allowing, to avoid getting a saw/shaper combo if you can avoid it. You may in fact delay using a shaper initially so could delay buying that particular machine. Most people start off with a router table and many never opt for anything bigger.

If you do end up using a shaper you will find that set-up takes quite a bit of time and will appreciate not having to switch over to the saw function as on a combination machine.

I like the advice already given to invest in learning first. Once you have some knowledge and skills then you will have a better idea of what machines to buy and how to use them.

[Al Flasi]

Thank you all for the kind advice.


I would like to add:
- The space I got planned for the shop is 50' x 32' x 12'

- I thought the shaper would benefit from the sliding table rather than being separate, would you kindly share more?

- Buying used is not an option for me, as. I don't live in the USA, the used market here is not that great sadly.

[Greg Quenneville]

A slider on a shaper is nice to have, and if you get a Felder, the tilting spindle and interchangeable router spindle are nice features too. The slider gets used for coping and tenoning operations primarily.

For comparison, I have a full Felder combo but I also have an older, more basic spindle moulder which is my first choice since I use that machine quite often, and it has a dedicated power feeder.

Used machines can be an inexpensive way to go, but they often require you to have the secondary hobby of machine repair.

[George Yetka]

A combination machine is not the best way to process a bunch of rough sawn lumber. You do get a wide jointer, but not a wide planer. Flipping the tables and cranking the planer tables up to go from the jointer and planer is not my favorite thing.

Me neither, I would have paid another 1000 for an auto down/up feature on the planer table. But the space savings is great

[George Yetka]

Building your shop will be half the fun. Machines are only the start and you will probably spend as much or more on the rest of the shop so plan for that as well

I consider myself a hobbyist and my machines are is on the upper end of average(Hammer/sawstop/laguna) and my machines total 1/3 of the cost of the shop.
Small power tools are 1/4
Hand tools 1/6
Clamps/benchs/workholding 1/8
Dust collection/ lighting 1/8

[Erik Loza]

…In all honesty, woodworking is a hobby that I dream of one day becoming decent at it to be able to make a living.
I find myself now in a fortunate position of having the funds to create the dream workshop. But I guess that I should better invest in myself first.

This is probably why your Felder rep steered you towards Hammer machines. In my opinion, something like a B3 Comfort, an A3-41 with spiral cutterhead, N4400 bandsaw, and an HS-950 edge sander would be a pretty ideal pacakage. You’ll learn on solid machines that are more precise than you are (at this stage) and still have money left over for tooling, dust collection, accessories, etc. Good luck with your project.

Erik

[John Kananis]

I'll just add there's there's so much out-of-site cost to every machine you add, which is usually exponentially higher than the cost of the individual machine. For instance, my last tool purchase was a lathe. Cost was 3k but I've spent triple that easily in accessories, chisels, chucks, etc, etc. 30k is not getting you as far as you believe. My premise is new equipment btw, buying used is another thing but then you need even more knowledge and experience to maintain, etc. I would take the advice of taking some classes and getting involved with the craft before making large purchases. Even the cost of hose clamps for your dust collection system will surprise you, there's so many little things like this that add up...Best of luck, I hope this works out for you.

Edit: also, have you considered the cost of work bench, work surfaces, clamps, guides, hand tools (good ones), so many things...

[William Hodge]

OP, what are you building?
There's a big difference in what you need, based on what you want to do.

[Al Flasi]

OP, what are you building?
There's a big difference in what you need, based on what you want to do.

As a beginning, I would love to try making doors and simple furniture. like simple dining tables , desks etc..

[Michael Burnside]

There are a lot of good replies, but the problem is that they're all coming from their own personal/professional experience. I don't see anywhere in this thread where you state what you're wanting to do in any detail. Cabinetry? One-off custom furniture pieces? Interested in handtool work? What style of furniture interests you. Is it ornate or clean lines? Do you want to build small projects, boxes, cutting boards and home decor?

With a 30k budget I personally wouldn't skimp out on the critical tools. To process lumber you need a jointer, planer/thicknesser, some sort of saw and a good dust collector. If you have space, I prefer separate tools, if you don't, get a combo for the jointer/thicknesser. For the saw, you have lots of options. I had no budget but I chose a cabinet saw. Plenty of people here have good advice on a slider, so listen to them. For dust collector, don't cheap out and get one with a cyclone.

You'll need clamps...don't cheap out here either. You'll need a couple squares. Buy a few good ones. My recommendation would be to stop here and start your first project. If you need a router, buy one. If you need a track saw, buy one. If you need a set of chisels, buy them.

You'll probably be able to build quite a few things before you need much else. For example, first project is likely a workbench :) I've built so many pieces of fine furniture and I only have 2 hand planes and 4 Narex chisels LOL. So, what I prioritize might not be what you do. For example, I personally wouldn't own a woodshop that didn't have a CNC. So, that would be the next thing I bought. OneFinity with spindle will set you back around 6k and is a VERY capable machine.

Good luck.

[Derek Cohen]

Al, you are in a most enviable position to be able to afford high quality machines from the start. My own workshop is the product of over 30 years of learning, building furniture and upgrading. I'm a serious amateur, and own a Hammer K3 slider, Hammer A3-31 combination jointer/planer, and Hammer N4400 bandsaw as the main machines. I have zero interest in upgrading further. I am experienced enough to recognise what these machines are capable of, and that personal skills really account for at least 75%. That said, since you lack the skills to build much, if anything, you really should spend the time acquiring this by taking courses and doing anything hands-on.

I know that you have your eye on machines, but hand tools are really the best place to start. They will educate you about wood and traditional joinery .... don't get sucked into instant joinery tools, such as the Domino or biscuits. They have their place, just not in your education. Start with a course in using hand tools. Build a solid workbench. Learn to use handsaws and hand planes and chisels .... you will be the richer for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek