Crosscutting a ROLL OF PAPER (on cardboard tube) on the table saw

[Tom Burgess]

What type saw blade do you guys suggest? I'm seeking the cleanest cut possible, and will have to choose from several 10" table saw blades on hand. None are exotic, so hopefully something "basic" will work

I use artist paper that comes on a roll, 48" wide by 30 feet long. The hard cardboard tube is about 1-1/2" in diameter, and the overall diameter of a fresh new roll is between 2-1/2 and 3 inches. If I recall correctly, the paper arrives tightly rolled on its tube, and there's a cellophane outer wrapper.

I need to turn that 48" roll into two rolls of 24" length.

If I had a large chopsaw, I'd use that, but I don't, so I'll have to come up with a table saw jig/fixture. Something along the lines of a crosscut sled, but half baked... :D

I intend to leave the cellophane wrapper in place.
I intend to tightly wrap the cut-point circumference with painter's tape, on the outside of the cellophane.
I intend to crosscut the roll by pushing it into the spinning 10" table saw blade.
Please warn me if you see potential problems. :eek:

I have an INCRA 1000SE miter guage (https://www.amazon.com/Incra-MITER1000SE-Miter-Special-Telescoping/dp/B0007UQ2EQ?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A12JH3593ILH9), with a cross beam that extends to at least 24". I'll run that in the left table slot, and extend the cross beam to the right so the saw blade is centered relative to the beam. I'll simultaneously run the basic original miter gauge in the right table slot, using it to support/push the other end of the INCRA's extended cross beam.

I'll concoct a sacrificial wooden "straight edge" to be pushed along in front of the INCRA's cross beam. It will keep the paper roll perpendicular to the saw blade, and will be deep enough (front to back) to accept the short sacrificial saw cut necessary to complete the crosscut of the paper roll.

I found THIS OLD YOUTUBE VIDEO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecMgMmzm0zo), which accomplishes the cut (different kind of paper) using a chop saw; one with a blade that's too small for the job. The video is seven years old. I count all ten fingers in the video. I hope that's still the case. :D

[andrew whicker]

I would have already slapped it on my crosscut and did it. Or used my bandsaw or used my miter saw.

if you're really nervous, find a way to clamp it w/ tools and just push the crosscut sled.

[Jim Becker]

Not difficult...the sled idea is good to insure a straight cut. The biggest issue/risk with cutting round things is keeping them from moving/rotating.

[Tom Burgess]

Thanks for quick reply, Andrew.
It would take a bandsaw with a monstrous 24" throat. ;)
No crosscut sled and no miter saw here.
Ergo, my thoughts and questions as expressed.

[Jim Becker]

You can make a quick and dirty cross cut sled to use on your table saw. Because of the depth of cut you need, you'll want to make the base as thin as practical....25" MDF or ply...and make the fence(s) and rails for the miter slot(s) out of scrap wood that you have available. It doesn't have to be pretty. But it does need to support the roll so you can safely cut it.

[Tom Burgess]

Amen, Jim! I've cut a lot of PVC pipe on the table saw, and the rotation you warn of can be a bugger. :D

If I make my "sacrificial straight edge" the full 48" width, I could put clamps into the tube a both ends, and clamp the roll directly to the wooden fixture.

I think the straight edge need only be 30", but the rotation aspect might justify the longer 48" length. The paper costs about $60 per roll. Would be a shame to mess up the cut for lack of clamping the roll securely in place. Yep, thanks to your comment, I think the 48" length is the wise choice.

Any thoughts on what type of blade will provide the cleanest cut?
There's a freshly sharpened combination blade on the saw now.
Maybe that's as good as any...?

[Tom Burgess]

You can make a quick and dirty cross cut sled to use on your table saw. Because of the depth of cut you need, you'll want to make the base as thin as practical....25" MDF or ply...and make the fence(s) and rails for the miter slot(s) out of scrap wood that you have available. It doesn't have to be pretty. But it does need to support the roll so you can safely cut it.

Good, good, good suggestions, Jim. Thanks. Our posts are leapfrogging one another. Your latest reply arrived while I was replying to your initial comment. And thanks for pointing out the need for the thinnest possible sled base material. A 10" blade stands about 3-3/8" above the table surface, so yeah, that thin base will be a factor.

I have ALWAYS(!) needed a cross cut sled, and one day (if material prices ever come back to earth) I'll follow your wise suggestion here. :D But for now I hope to put together the minimal fixture for this particular job. Cutting paper rolls is something I won't do often—maybe 2 or 3 times a year—but I will do it in the future, so a purpose-built jig makes sense.

[George Yetka]

Will it matter that your pieces will be a hair under 24"?

[Stan Powers]

With the tools you have (and don't have) I would take a fine toothed hand saw, or hacksaw, mark and cut. It would be done before you can figure out the jig.

[Lee Schierer]

I would use a cross cut sled with a v shaped channel to support or back up the cylinder. Then I would clamp the cylinder so that it cannot rotate when it touches the teeth of the blade. Make sure your saw blade is high enough to cut the roll in one cut, making a second cut could be messy. I would use a 60-80 ATB tooth blade.

[Tom Burgess]

Will it matter that your pieces will be a hair under 24"?

Good question, George.

In reference to my current half-used roll of paper, it's actually wider than 48" by about a quarter inch. I'm hoping to that'll be the case for every roll I purchase. If not, and to answer your question: Assuming I can hit the absolute centerline of the paper roll width (yeah, maybe) I could live with losing half a 1/8" saw kerf per side. I'm hoping the blade will cut the same kerf through multiple layers of paper as it does through solid wood (hopefully no wider).

I have a Diablo blade that makes a slightly more narrow kerf. Per you remarks, and having received no suggestions yet regarding choice of blade, I think that red blade with its laser-cut tuning features is what I'll use for cutting paper rolls. I bought an inexpensive blade sharpener recently that seems to do a serviceable job. Will make sure the Diablo is particularly "edgy" for this application. Thank you, George.

[Tom Burgess]

With the tools you have (and don't have) I would take a fine toothed hand saw, or hacksaw, mark and cut. It would be done before you can figure out the jig.

Thanks, Stan, but I'm not the most accurate guy with a hand saw. ANY variance in terms of perpendicularity with the saw blade will result in a mildly wavey paper edge. The alternating angles will correspond to the diameter of the roll, so a 3" diameter roll will exhibit a 3" alternating wavey edge.

A good man knows his limitations.
~ Dirty Harry Callihan :D

[Tom Burgess]

I would use a cross cut sled with a v shaped channel to support or back up the cylinder. Then I would clamp the cylinder so that it cannot rotate when it touches the teeth of the blade. Make sure your saw blade is high enough to cut the roll in one cut, making a second cut could be messy. I would use a 60-80 ATB tooth blade.

Lee, that outstanding Naval Academy training wasn't wasted on you. :D Great suggestions, and you answered the circular-saw-blade question, to boot! I've made good use of V-channels under workpieces on drill press, and appreciate your suggestion in this case. As a result of helpful contributions to this thread, I think I should make the jig 48" wide to match the length of the paper roll. That way I can insert bar clamps into the paper roll tube ends (thereby avoiding damage to the paper) and exhert clamping pressure toward the back side of the roll by clamping against the rear of the fixture. That said, I think I can acheive the benefit of your V-channel by simply gluing two strips of wood to the front face of the fixture. IF IF IF I size them correctly and position them correctly relative to the roll, they will exhert pressure on the roll similar to the 'V' you suggest.

It's blasted cold where I am (about what you have in PA) but I just dug out the aforementioned red Diablo blade. It turns out to be a DIABLO 1080X (https://www.amazon.com/D1080X-Diablo-10-Inch-80-tooth-PermaShield/dp/B00008WQ32/ref=asc_df_B00008WQ32/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309807921328&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8414768051245706205&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016348&hvtargid=pla-499728236557&mcid=cdb627d3a8e63649b999746f26ff14d6&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlp_W_5SIgwMVEf_jBx1qKQ6OEAQYASAB EgLeWvD_BwE&th=1), which appears to match your blade suggestion well. I will use that one. It's thin-kerf and claims to make ultra-smooth cuts for both ripping and crosscut. All those teeth will take a while to sharpen, but I've been meaning to do that for a while, and as is always the case, I'll embark upon it only now that the garage has once again turned into a giant FREEZER.

Go Navy (and that includes USMC)!

[George Yetka]

I cut a 4" thick roll of kraft paper that I use on my workbench to not overhang as much. A standard crosscut blade worked fine.

[Bill Dufour]

Use a finetooth blade. The cut will be a little fuzzy. Looks like classy handmade paper.
BilL D

[George Yetka]

I would try with your 48.5" roll to cut 1/8" off the end.

[Richard Coers]

Anything other than a knife will leave a very fuzzy edge. I guess if a table saw was the only option, I'd wrap a bunch of masking tape around the roll at the cut line.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Anything other than a knife will leave a very fuzzy edge. I guess if a table saw was the only option, I'd wrap a bunch of masking tape around the roll at the cut line.Before removing the outer plastic sleeve, I would add a turn of duct tape where I wanted the cut to be.

[roger wiegand]

I don't think it's possible to get a clean edge with any kind of saw. Perhaps a local printer will do it for you on their slitter?

[Tom Burgess]

I would try with your 48.5" roll to cut 1/8" off the end.

I think cutting a narrow slice at the end would be very different (a lot less stable) than cutting at the center of the roll.

[Tom Burgess]

Use a finetooth blade. The cut will be a little fuzzy. Looks like classy handmade paper.
BilL D

Turning lemons into lemonade. :D That hand-torn effect is called a deckled edge. I don't think saw-cut fuzz is gonna "cut it" (pun!) as a deckled edge, but I'm a big fan of looking for ways to take advantage of limitations. Thanks, Bill.

[Tom Burgess]

I don't think it's possible to get a clean edge with any kind of saw. Perhaps a local printer will do it for you on their slitter?

Thank you, Roger. Per your suggestion, I just found what appears to be the only real Printer here. Just left voice mail asking if they might have a slitter or other means. If not, I think I can get an edge that's "clean enough" for my needs

I wonder if a fine grit sandpaper on a flat block applied to the cut end while the paper is still tightly wrapped would minimize any roughness. I'll test it.

[Tom Burgess]

Anything other than a knife will leave a very fuzzy edge. I guess if a table saw was the only option, I'd wrap a bunch of masking tape around the roll at the cut line.

Thanks, Richard. I intend to tightly wrap the outer cellophane wrapper with painter's tape at the cut line.

[Tom Burgess]

Before removing the outer plastic sleeve, I would add a turn of duct tape where I wanted the cut to be.

Thanks, Bruce. I thinking duct tape adhesive might be "gooey". Painter's Tape is dryer and seems like the better choice. But per your suggestion, I will wrap the tape outside the plastic wrapper.

[Tom Burgess]

I cut a 4" thick roll of kraft paper that I use on my workbench to not overhang as much. A standard crosscut blade worked fine.

Thanks for sharing your real-world experience. Good to know, and I'll bet the basic Combination Blade currently mounted on my table saw would do just fine. Still, I will sharpen my "80-tooth, thin-kerf, smooth-cut, laser-tuned Freud Diablo blade" and try that. I'll post a picture of whatever happens.

[George Yetka]

I think cutting a narrow slice at the end would be very different (a lot less stable) than cutting at the center of the roll.

I agree but I figured if he aimed at cutting an 1/8 and burning an 1/8 and got decent results he can expect better on a center cut.

[Tom Burgess]

ere.

I was able to accomplish sawing the roll of paper in half, converting a 48-1/4" roll into two rolls, each slightly longer than 24 inches.

I tightly wrapped the rolled paper at its centerline with clear plastic. Around that I ran painter's tape and marked the cut point on the tape.

Concocted a make-shift, temporary jig based on a white, straight 48" length of steel box tubing. I made four simple wood blocks and hot-melt glued a magnet to each so they'd adhere to the steel tubing. The wood blocks support the paper roll, pushing it out in front of the steel tubing, far enough out so the spinning blade does not contact the steel tubing.

Used two miter gauges, each clamped to the steel straight edge. Then clamped the two ends of the cardboard paper tube to the steel straight edge. Everthing locked up solidly and the cut went smoothly...for a while...

First half of the cut was good, then it slowed down and smoke came out of both ends of the cardboard tube (yikes). The second half of the cut became progressively more bogged down, but did complete without mishap. The rearmost portion of the cut is a bit rough—sort of like blowing out the grain at the back edge of a wood workpiece. This quality of cut will do for my application, but I'd like to avoid the roughness and bogging down next time. If you have a theory or suggestion, let fly.

Images below depict the jig, the right-side cut and the left side cut:

I removed the images.
If I'm not allowed to view them, I'm certainly not inclined to post them.

[Ron Selzer]

I have had better luck when cutting pvc schd. 40 by rotating the pipe once I cut thru the sidewall. always wants to pinch if I try to cut all the way through by pushing straight thru
Also might want to clamp the roll to your steel box tubing to try to keep the kerf open.
Ron

[Jerry Bruette]

I'm curious why you didn't have a block of wood in line with the cut. Would it have helped with the "blowout" on the backside of the cut and prevent any pinching on the blade?

[Lee Schierer]

Used two miter gauges, each clamped to the steel straight edge. Then clamped the two ends of the cardboard paper tube to the steel straight edge. Everthing locked up solidly and the cut went smoothly...for a while...

First half of the cut was good, then it slowed down and smoke came out of both ends of the cardboard tube (yikes). The second half of the cut became progressively more bogged down, but did complete without mishap. The rearmost portion of the cut is a bit rough—sort of like blowing out the grain at the back edge of a wood workpiece. This quality of cut will do for my application, but I'd like to avoid the roughness and bogging down next time. If you have a theory or suggestion, let fly.

It's difficult to give a firm answer without the photos, but I suspect your blade was dull and the paper fibers accumulated on the teeth, causing the smoke and ragged cut. Perhaps a higher blade setting so fewer teeth were in the cut at any one time would help.

[Jimmy Harris]

I'm a professional printer. So, this is the type of stuff I do for a living.

Yeah, you need a straight edge cutter. Any teeth will chew up an edge. We actually do this on purpose sometimes in what we call a "perfect bind", which is where we rough up the edges so that glue will adhere better to them for binding the pages in something like a magazine with a square back. Paper isn't wood, remember. Wood is just one of the ingredients in paper. So it can't be treated and processed like wood.

A slitter is how it would need to be done. However, I doubt you'd find a printer who has that capability AND would be willing to do that for you at a cost that would be reasonable. Cutting sheet paper is easy and most printers, binders, and paper suppliers will have a guillotine cutter for that. But paper on a roll has to be unrolled, slitted, and then rerolled, which is time consuming. A paper distributor might actually have the means and time to do that, as some of them buy larger stock and then cut them down to smaller stock on site. But I doubt most print shops would have the mans for that. At least none that I've ever seen own a slitter outside of something like an attachment to a folder. Then again, I work with sheetfed offset lithography, not on a web press. And a web press would be the environment where you might find something like this. Though web presses are getting harder to find, as there are fewer and fewer large distribution magazines these days. You might try a newspaper though. They're kind of the last web press printers around, for the most part. So that would probably be your best bet. If not, they might know someone. Though I suspicion most newspaper printers only ever print one size and type of paper, so they probably just order it how they need it.

You could perhaps build your own slitter. A couple of rollers and a disk blade in the center would do it. You'd have to tension the two rolls somehow and perhaps figure out a way to keep them aligned so the paper doesn't wander. But I have a better option if you ever run into this again...

Contact some print shops and ask them if they'd be interested in buying your large roll from you. Then use that money to buy your smaller rolls. Or ask them if they have some smaller rolls they'd be willing to swap out with you. Print shops always have a ton of paper left over from other jobs that's just sitting there wasting space, waiting to be used. And if someone does a lot of large format printing, they'll likely have a bunch of different rolls in various widths and paper types lying around. And wider paper is usually more valuable than narrow paper, as wider paper can be cut down.

[Tom Burgess]

It's difficult to give a firm answer without the photos, but I suspect your blade was dull and the paper fibers accumulated on the teeth, causing the smoke and ragged cut. Perhaps a higher blade setting so fewer teeth were in the cut at any one time would help.
Thanks, Lee. To your point, I cleaned built-up pitch from the 80-tooth blade, but did NOT sharpen it. I convinced myself that it felt "sharp enough" and probably caused the issues described. Another good call on your part.

I set the blade as high as possible (3-3/8" above the table surface) but per your remarks—if I'm reading you correctly—next time I'll try a 40-tooth combination blade that will be sharpened just prior to the cut.

[Tom Burgess]

I'm a professional printer. So, this is the type of stuff I do for a living.

Thanks a LOT for your in-depth and very helpful reply, Jimmy. I know a lot more now thanks to your efforts. Member Roger Wiegand in post #19 suggested trying to find a local source who might be willing to slit the paper for me. I found only one serious printer where I live. Left voicemail, but they didn't even return my call...so no dice. And there's a local newspaper, but I take your point regarding how they probably source their paper stock pre-sized, so will not trouble them with this.

I did a quick Google search (https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=594075593&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS763US763&q=paper+slitter+image&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1n5yPwrCDAxVgpIkEHYbHDqkQ0pQJegQIDhAB&biw=1152&bih=592&dpr=1.25) to see what a slitter might look like. If I can find a way to SPIN THE PAPER ROLL on a length of pipe having an outside diameter slightly smaller than the inside diameter of the paper roll's cardboard tube, I wonder if pressing a stationary knife blade (such as a box cutter blade) against the spinning paper roll would cut successively deeper until it finally slit the cardboard tube and all. I'd have to rotate the paper tube by some mechanical means, and attach stops at both ends so as to keep the roll from shifting left or right while cutting... And the blade would have to be long enough to cut through the layers of paper AND the inner cardboard tube.

The cut I was able to achieve on the table saw is "good enough", but I'll look for ways to improve on that method. Per Lee's comments above, perhaps simply using a truly sharp blade, and one with half as many teeth (larger, deeper gullets) will resolve the bogging down, rough cut and smoking issues.

[Tom Burgess]

CHECK THIS OUT!

It's not wide enough, but is very much what I tried to describe in my post above. WOW! :eek:

26" Foil Paper Cutter Slitter Hot Stamping Roll Cutting Machine (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832076088784.html?src=google&src=google&albch=rmkt&acnt=576-373-4425&albcp=16255467009&albag=&slnk=&trgt=&plac=&crea=&netw=x&device=c&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_rmkt&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_tiy-b2wgwMVPWtHAR1hnQw2EAQYECABEgIHUvD_BwE&aff_fcid=ab57d1bfcb94440f8f6cff627037f7ba-1703709988109-03133-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=ab57d1bfcb94440f8f6cff627037f7ba-1703709988109-03133-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=b192b641e3d04cf49cc1508b42bd0d58&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa)

View the video. That's very much what I had in mind.

[jim gossage]

I did a quick Google search (https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=594075593&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS763US763&q=paper+slitter+image&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1n5yPwrCDAxVgpIkEHYbHDqkQ0pQJegQIDhAB&biw=1152&bih=592&dpr=1.25) to see what a slitter might look like. If I can find a way to SPIN THE PAPER ROLL on a length of pipe having an outside diameter slightly smaller than the inside diameter of the paper roll's cardboard tube, I wonder if pressing a stationary knife blade (such as a box cutter blade) against the spinning paper roll would cut successively deeper until it finally slit the cardboard tube and all. I'd have to rotate the paper tube by some mechanical means, and attach stops at both ends so as to keep the roll from shifting left or right while cutting... And the blade would have to be long enough to cut through the layers of paper AND the inner cardboard tube.

Fascinating discussion. The "spin the roll and cut with a knife" plan might work. Today I did that on a much smaller scale. I wanted to slice my roll of 1" painters tape into 1/3" strips. I clamped a boxcutter blade to my workbench with a 1/3" shim between the blade and bench. Then I just slowly turned the roll with pressure against the blade. Then flipped the roll and did the other side. Voila, a roll of three 1/3" tape strips. But I did not cut all the way through the cardboard core. Not sure how you would turn your 48" roll (a big lathe?) but it seems doable at least in theory. You would also need a longer and perhaps sturdier blade.

[Tom Burgess]

Fascinating discussion. The "spin the roll and cut with a knife" plan might work. Today I did that on a much smaller scale. I wanted to slice my roll of 1" painters tape into 1/3" strips. I clamped a boxcutter blade to my workbench with a 1/3" shim between the blade and bench. Then I just slowly turned the roll with pressure against the blade. Then flipped the roll and did the other side. Voila, a roll of three 1/3" tape strips. But I did not cut all the way through the cardboard core. Not sure how you would turn your 48" roll (a big lathe?) but it seems doable at least in theory. You would also need a longer and perhaps sturdier blade.
Thank you, Jim, for relating real-world experience. A great simple solution, and I appreciate your ideas on how to accomplish cutting a larger roll. See my post #34 just prior to yours. It shows a hand-cranked roll spinner, with the blade fixable at any position along a shaft the runs parallel to the spinning roll. Check out the video there, if interested. I hope to achieve a satisfactory cut at the table saw by employing a truly sharp 40-tooth combination blade (thank you, Lee Shierer) and by supporting the paper roll at the center / cut line (thank you, Jerry Bruette, post #29). If that doesn't "cut it" I might make something similar to the tool referenced in my post #34, but longer to accommodate the 48inch+ roll.