table saw alignment conundrum

[Brian Runau]

This is an old Craftsman cabinet base trunion mounted to the base unit. Using the digalign unit the blade is parallel to the slot within .0005 Squaring the fence to the slot and making a cut the cut is deeper on the back end of the blade. Drove me crazy until I put a square in the slot and pushed it onto the side of the blade. 1st picture is on the back of the blade 2nd picture is on the front of the blade.

The blade is off by a 1/16" or more.

I can't reconcile this with the digialign reading of .0005.

Appreciate any help. Brian

511614511615

[Lee Schierer]

The big question is: Do your cuts reflect that much misalignment and show significant teeth marks or burning marks on the cuts? It sounds to me like one of the following occurred:

1. your digital device did not have sufficient travel distance when you performed the alignment. The digital indicator should be set so the plunger is about mid point in its length of travel and then zeroed.

2. Your blade was not mounted properly and/or the blade was warped. I always mark a spot on the blade tooth root and rotate the blade to always read that spot so that I get a consistent reading.

3. You moved or bumped your table top when moving the saw or doing some other operation.

I recommend doing the check a second time using both methods.

On my saw, the toothed lock washers were moving the trunnion out of position when I did the final tightening. I had to rotate the washer teeth out of the indentations they had made in the softer trunnion metal to keep the setting where I wanted it.

[Brian Runau]

The big question is: Do your cuts reflect that much misalignment and show significant teeth marks or burning marks on the cuts? It sounds to me like one of the following occurred:

1. your digital device did not have sufficient travel distance when you performed the alignment. The digital indicator should be set so the plunger is about mid point in its length of travel and then zeroed.

2. Your blade was not mounted properly and/or the blade was warped. I always mark a spot on the blade tooth root and rotate the blade to always read that spot so that I get a consistent reading.

3. You moved or bumped your table top when moving the saw or doing some other operation.

I recommend doing the check a second time using both methods.

On my saw, the toothed lock washers were moving the trunnion out of position when I did the final tightening. I had to rotate the washer teeth out of the indentations they had made in the softer trunnion metal to keep the setting where I wanted it.

Lee, the cuts do reflect the misalignment. I tried the digialign in a couple different locations, in terms of the plunge depth and same result. My trunions are mounted on the base cabinet. Blade is mounted fine and I am checking rotating so I check front to back on the blade. Not from bumping or moving the saw.

Thanks

Brian

[mike stenson]

You're not using the same reference point on the blade in those pictures.

[Brian Runau]

You're not using the same reference point on the blade in those pictures.

The body of my square is being held in the miter slot. Blade is extended to contact the side of the blade in the rear. Then I slide the square forward in the miter slot still being held against the same reference side and the gap shows on the front of the blade. This is how the Sears manual says to check alignment. Brian

[mike stenson]

The body of my square is being held in the miter slot. Blade is extended to contact the side of the blade in the rear. Then I slide the square forward in the miter slot still being held against the same reference side and the gap shows on the front of the blade. This is how the Sears manual says to check alignment. Brian

Turn the blade, so that you're referencing the same spot on the blade. Otherwise, you're not accurately measuring the alignment.

[John Kananis]

What Mike just said above. Eliminate the possibility that there's warp in the blade. If it's the same using the same part of the blade, then loosen the bolts connections the table to the cabinet and align correctly.

[Michael Burnside]

Turn the blade, so that you're referencing the same spot on the blade. Otherwise, you're not accurately measuring the alignment.

Exactly this. Eliminate one potential problem. At the end of the day you should be measuring with respect to the miter slots not the throatplate gap, but it's ok to start somewhere.

[Bill Dufour]

The harbor fright dial indicator is $17.99. Make a simple holder from a hunk of 2x2 and a wood screw. Well worth it to settle the issue. Also used to adjust planers, jointers, drill press etc. You do not need accuracy just repeatability. Any old one that is not sticky would be fine.
BilL D

[mike stenson]

The harbor fright dial indicator is $17.99. Make a simple holder from a hunk of 2x2 and a wood screw. Well worth it to settle the issue. Also used to adjust planers, jointers, drill press etc. You do not need accuracy just repeatability. Any old one that is not sticky would be fine.
BilL D

Yea, this makes it easy to pick a tooth (colour it with a sharpie) and use the same tooth for repeatability.

[Ronald Blue]

One thing is clear. Your digalign is not accurate. Whether it's defective or an operator error you will need to determine. However if the fence is that far out as well that makes for some ugly cut's if not dangerous as well. Keep us posted.

[Brian Runau]

Turn the blade, so that you're referencing the same spot on the blade. Otherwise, you're not accurately measuring the alignment.

Mike: I did this also. It's not warp in the blade. I use this instead of a older style dial indicator. Thanks. Brian

http://www.igaging.com/page27.html

[mike stenson]

Let me take a step back and make sure I understand.

Using a dial indicator and an alignment jig, everything is OK.
Using a combination square it's off.

Is that correct?

[Doug Garson]

What is a digalign? Your square is indicating that the blade is not parallel to the miter slot (or that your blade is warped if you are not measuring to the same spot on the blade as others have pointed out). Is the digalign measuring the same distances as the square? (ie from the miter slot to the blade at the front and back) If it is also not measuring to the same spot on the blade, then the .0005" is a false reading. Maybe you have a warped blade and it is not set parallel to within .0005" as you think.

[Michael Burnside]

I'm confused. Are you measuring with respect to the miter slot to blade or the throat plate gap? If the latter, who cares about the throat plate gap?

Maybe try this

Check runout of arbor + blade:

- set your "digalign" at the front of the blade
- mark the blade with a sharpie
- while NOT moving the gauge, slowly rotate the blade one full rotation, until you see the sharpie mark again, and record the total runout

This value should be relatively small, say 2-4 thou max (mine is right around 0.001")

If the above is reasonable you can proceed, if not, you've got a problem with the blade or arbor. Replace blade and try again. If you have a granite reference surface, place the blade on that and see if it wobbles. Measure miter slot alignment using Mike's recommendation. Using that same sharpie mark, measure the front. Slide the "digalign" gauge up and rotate sharpie mark back and measure again. This should be also relatively small.

You will need to do this on BOTH sides of the blade. In particular, start with the side that your fence is on since the cut you're seeing is relative to the fence and blade, nothing more :) Ultimately you want miter slots aligned with blade aligned with fence, but you have to start somewhere first.

Or you can forgo the "digalign" and use a combinational square.

[Cameron Wood]

If that blade was warped 1/16", it would be very obvious.

[Michael Burnside]

If that blade was warped 1/16", it would be very obvious.

That's a lot no matter what, so I'm trying to figure out what the OP is doing.

[glenn bradley]

I know this can be frustrating. I ran that saw for many years. If a windfall would not have made a Saw Stop possible I would still be running it. I made something analog that is similar in function to your DigiAlign here (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?111401-Shop-Made-TS-Alignment-Tool). I also have a thread on here somewhere of me aligning the 22124 at 90* and at 45*.

The fact that your alignment tool and a combo square do not agree is causing some confusion. By now you are familiar with the four bolts that hold the table to the cabinet, the fact that the table top is moved into alignment and not the trunnions, and the fact of how important the washers or shims are at each corner table bolt position. I believe you are rotating the blade so that you are measuring against the same marked tooth area and you are measuring against the blade plate near the tooth and not against the tooth.

All this falls by the way side when you state that the alignment tool run in the miter slot shows one thing and a fixed device like a combo square shows something else when run against the same reference surface. This, of course, should not be possible. The distance between two fixed points does not change just because you measure it with different things. The things may be different but the distance remains the same.

I wish you were closer. I would drop by and we could work through it together. There is something that escapes us. A mystery like this in the past was found to be due to a cracked trunnion casting. Things looked good when the saw was unplugged. The torque of the saw when under load opened the crack and caused things to misalign.

[Bill Dufour]

That DI setup looks fine. Just make sure to run the DI into the work about half travel then set that as zero. You want it to read both positive and negative.
Only problem I see is there is not a good way to move the Di setup with out touching the mounting bar. I prefer to clamp the mount bar to the mitre gauge a and use the mitre handle to move it around.
With my mickey mouse setup I could easily shift the bar 8/1000 by using the bar instead of the handle to push.
How good is your mitre slot slider base you have the Di mounted to. On my big saw a 123 block fit perfect in the slot and helps get stuff aligned. Stuff like the fence.
Bill D

[Brian Runau]

Let me take a step back and make sure I understand.

Using a dial indicator and an alignment jig, everything is OK.
Using a combination square it's off.

Is that correct?

I don't use an alignment jig, but using a dial indicator it reads to within .0005 when I rotate the blade 180 degrees. and it is off using a square. Confusing as hell to me. thanks Brian

[Brian Runau]

I know this can be frustrating. I ran that saw for many years. If a windfall would not have made a Saw Stop possible I would still be running it. I made something analog that is similar in function to your DigiAlign here (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?111401-Shop-Made-TS-Alignment-Tool). I also have a thread on here somewhere of me aligning the 22124 at 90* and at 45*.

The fact that your alignment tool and a combo square do not agree is causing some confusion. By now you are familiar with the four bolts that hold the table to the cabinet, the fact that the table top is moved into alignment and not the trunnions, and the fact of how important the washers or shims are at each corner table bolt position. I believe you are rotating the blade so that you are measuring against the same marked tooth area and you are measuring against the blade plate near the tooth and not against the tooth.

All this falls by the way side when you state that the alignment tool run in the miter slot shows one thing and a fixed device like a combo square shows something else when run against the same reference surface. This, of course, should not be possible. The distance between two fixed points does not change just because you measure it with different things. The things may be different but the distance remains the same.

I wish you were closer. I would drop by and we could work through it together. There is something that escapes us. A mystery like this in the past was found to be due to a cracked trunnion casting. Things looked good when the saw was unplugged. The torque of the saw when under load opened the crack and caused things to misalign.

Confusing as hell to me. I'll let myself sleep on it and see what tomorrow brings. Thanks. Brian

[Brian Runau]

I broke down and purchased a sawstop this morning. spending to much time setting the craftsman up to run, but I want to figure out the problem. Can't try to sell or give it to someone knowiing there's a problem.

Thanks all.

Brian

511629

[Doug Garson]

If I understand correctly, you are measuring the distance from the slot to the blade at one location, rotating the blade and you get less than .0005" deflection. This indicates your blade is not warped but does not indicate your blade is parallel to the slot. When you measure the distance from the slot to the blade at the front and back you get a 1/16" difference. This indicates your blade is not parallel to the slot.

[Edward Weber]

Never used a DI on a saw in my life, everyone has their own methods

[mike stenson]

Never used a DI on a saw in my life, everyone has their own methods

The discrepancy is interesting, but hard to tell without seeing both used.. Or perhaps using both.

[Dan Barber]

Congrats on the SS Brain. I think there's a lot of confusing information in this thread. If the blade has less than a thou of runout then there is no need to rotate the balade when setting the table parallel to the blade. The fact that the precision measuring instrument (dial indicator) indicates parallelism from blade to miter slot and the less precision instrument (tir-square) shows that not to be the case is what's most confusing. I wish as another poster said that I lived closer to you, I'd love to help you solve this dilemma! Is there a Creeker that lives in the Indy area that could possibly help Brian out?

[Mark Hennebury]

I can never understand the problem without photos, and while you have a few, not enough to show me what the problem is. Please post more photos of the setups that you are using.
This is an old Craftsman cabinet base trunion mounted to the base unit. Using the digalign unit the blade is parallel to the slot within .0005 Squaring the fence to the slot and making a cut the cut is deeper on the back end of the blade. Drove me crazy until I put a square in the slot and pushed it onto the side of the blade. 1st picture is on the back of the blade 2nd picture is on the front of the blade.

The blade is off by a 1/16" or more.

I can't reconcile this with the digialign reading of .0005.

Appreciate any help. Brian

511614511615

[Brian Runau]

Congrats on the SS Brain. I think there's a lot of confusing information in this thread. If the blade has less than a thou of runout then there is no need to rotate the balade when setting the table parallel to the blade. The fact that the precision measuring instrument (dial indicator) indicates parallelism from blade to miter slot and the less precision instrument (tir-square) shows that not to be the case is what's most confusing. I wish as another poster said that I lived closer to you, I'd love to help you solve this dilemma! Is there a Creeker that lives in the Indy area that could possibly help Brian out?

I am sure it will be a "Mr. Obvious" moment once I do figure it out and I will, won't quit until I do. Thanks. Brian

[Clint Baxter]

Congrats on the SS Brain. I think there's a lot of confusing information in this thread. If the blade has less than a thou of runout then there is no need to rotate the balade when setting the table parallel to the blade. The fact that the precision measuring instrument (dial indicator) indicates parallelism from blade to miter slot and the less precision instrument (tir-square) shows that not to be the case is what's most confusing. I wish as another poster said that I lived closer to you, I'd love to help you solve this dilemma! Is there a Creeker that lives in the Indy area that could possibly help Brian out?

I'm interpreting this the same as Dan.

I will be visiting my son who lives in Westfield on the 20th and 21st. If you haven't got it figured out by then and still are looking for an answer, let me know with a PM and maybe I can help you determine what the issue is.

Good luck. Clint

[Cameron Wood]

So as Doug Garson points out, you are measuring two different things with the DI and the square, and getting two different results.

[Dan Barber]

There's lot's going on here folks. Read very carefully what Brain has explained. He is measuring the same thing with two different measuring devices and getting two very different results. He's not measuring two different things. Puzzling to say the least.

[Cameron Wood]

There's lot's going on here folks. Read very carefully what Brain has explained. He is measuring the same thing with two different measuring devices and getting two very different results. He's not measuring two different things. Puzzling to say the least.


Post #1 shows measuring to the trailing and to the leading sides of the blade.

Post #20 says: "I don't use an alignment jig, but using a dial indicator it reads to within .0005 when I rotate the blade 180 degrees"

[Edward Weber]

Not puzzling at all, Doug nailed it from what I can tell in post #23
You have to measure the same thing to compare, not front and back on one device and rotate the blade for your measurement on another device.

[Mark Hennebury]

I don't know what a "digiliine" is and don't care what you measure it with, either the slot is parallel to the blade or it isn't. So whatever the OP is doing is what is causing the real or imagined problem. The miter fence has nothing to do with it.

[mike stenson]

I don't know what a "digiliine" is and don't care what you measure it with, either the slot is parallel to the blade or it isn't. So whatever the OP is doing is what is causing the real or imagined problem. The miter fence has nothing to do with it.

From the webpage listed, it's a dial indicator on a jig.

[Michael Burnside]

I don't know what a "digiliine" is and don't care what you measure it with, either the slot is parallel to the blade or it isn't. So whatever the OP is doing is what is causing the real or imagined problem. The miter fence has nothing to do with it.

LOL, I think Mike hit it on post #6 but what do I know. Hopefully Brian figures it out. I'd recommend sticking with one measuring stick rather than two however...

[Dan Barber]

Post #1 shows measuring to the trailing and to the leading sides of the blade.

Post #20 says: "I don't use an alignment jig, but using a dial indicator it reads to within .0005 when I rotate the blade 180 degrees"

But, post # 1 says "Using the digalign unit the blade is parallel to the slot within .0005"

Now I'm starting to wonder if Brian used the digalign at both the front and rear of the blade like he did with the square, if not then this all makes a little more sense. It seems he might have been measuring runout with the digalign and parallelism with the square. If that's the case then much of this makes sense.

Brian, did you use the Digalign to measure from the miter slot to the blade both front ant rear like the square?

[Dan Barber]

I don't know what a "digiliine" is and don't care what you measure it with, either the slot is parallel to the blade or it isn't. So whatever the OP is doing is what is causing the real or imagined problem. The miter fence has nothing to do with it.

The miter fence does not, but the miter slot does...

[Mark Hennebury]

Woodworking, and machine setup is about understanding relationships between parts.
All of the expensive gadgets and measuring equipment are useless to you if you don't see the relationships, and if you do,, you don't need any of them anyway.
To check the slot is parallel,
crank the blade up.
stick the mitre fence in the slot.
clamp a scrap of wood to it and trim a bit off,
run the mitre fence with the stick still clamped past the back teeth,
If more wood is trimmed off the slot is not parallel,
If the back teeth don't touch the wood the slot is not parallel.
If the teeth touch the front and back just a whisper as the wood passes , the slot is parallel to within 0.005"
I requires understanding the basic relationships, observation, listening feeling, what it doesn't require is Digiline or anything else.
To adjust the slot to true it up, smack the table with a hammer.
Your welcome

[Doug Garson]

No offence to Brian or any of the posters on this thread , but this thread is classic example of trying to advise someone how to solve a problem without fully understanding it. As Cameron points out in post #32 some think Brian is measuring the same thing two ways and getting different results, others, including me think Brian is measuring two unrelated things and is confused when they don't agree. Speaks to the difficulty in communications when trying to describe a problem and the tendency some have to offer a solution to a problem without fully understanding it. I always try to fully understand the problem before trying to offer a solution. More often than not my first response to a question is to ask for more information to clarify it and try and understand it, not jump to a conclusion and try to solve it. Just my 2 cents worth :).

[Tom M King]

I didn't answer because I was lost to start with.

[Michael Burnside]

No offence to Brian or any of the posters on this thread , but this thread is classic example of trying to advise someone how to solve a problem without fully understanding it. As Cameron points out in post #32 some think Brian is measuring the same thing two ways and getting different results, others, including me think Brian is measuring two unrelated things and is confused when they don't agree. Speaks to the difficulty in communications when trying to describe a problem and the tendency some have to offer a solution to a problem without fully understanding it. I always try to fully understand the problem before trying to offer a solution. More often than not my first response to a question is to ask for more information to clarify it and try and understand it, not jump to a conclusion and try to solve it. Just my 2 cents worth :).

You’re not wrong, and I have the same conclusions as you. That said, this forum is filled with DIY and field experts with “know how” and enough self confidence to be the proverbial Monday morning quarterbacks. Isn’t that part of forum discourse anyway?

[Brian Runau]

So this morning, I started from scratch. Solving problems in my work life, was always go back to the beginning to see who did what when exercise. Not in a hunt for the guilty party, but to see where we screwed the pooch along the way.

Put the calibration disc back on, loosened all the table top bolts and used the square to get it close to parallel. Put the digital dial indicator on it, made a minor adjustment on it and everything was good. Checked it with the square, it all matched. Lowered and raised the blade, checked everything again to see if the mechanism was introducing play. Stay the same. Put the Forrest blade on. Checked it with the dial indicator. , the same. Lowered and raised the blade, stayed the same. Checked it with the dial indicator and the square, stayed the same. Cut some wood to check the cut, square.

I have no idea what was wrong or how it got that way, but what the hell maybe this was the universe pushing me to get a new saw! I feel better about selling it or gifting it now.

Thanks for all suggestions. Brian

[Dan Barber]

Glad you got it sorted out Brian!

[Earl McLain]

Congratulations Brian!! Now...when you get ready to sell that saw, make sure you post it on here...i may be interested.

[Doug Garson]

Good to hear, sometimes starting over from scratch is the best way to solve a problem. Applying a fix to a fix to a fix can just get confusing. Now you can get full value for the saw or make it a really nice gift without worrying that you're passing a problem on to someone else.

[Alan Lightstone]

I went through the SawStop manual, and they say to do this to your old saw so that you get frustrated and buy one of theirs. Go figure.

Enjoy the new saw, and congrats that even though you might not have an answer regarding the old one, the problem no longer exists.

[Ray Newman]

Brian: not sure which SawStop table saw you purchased.I had about 4-6 weeks delivery time on my ICS back in 2016. During the "wait for delivery time", I logged on to the SawStop web site and downloaded the ICS user's and the assembly manuals. Saved me time me time and frustration trying to figure it all out as to what went where, how it operates, etc. You might also find it helpful.

On the SawStop support page, click on https://www.sawstop.com/support/
Then choose the saw you ordered and click on manuals.