Band Saw Advice

[Mike Hollis]

Looking at the Harvey HW615P (on sale for $1989 + $499 shipping) vs the Laguna 18bx (on sale for $2519 + $199 shipping). Both have 3 hp motors, the Laguna can take a 1.25” blade vs the 1” on the Harvey, Laguna obviously has 3” more clearance.

I plan to use this for resawing and cutting blanks for turning.

Thoughts?

[Eric Arnsdorff]

When I was searching for a bandsaw I was looking at these as well. Interestingly, the two you listed were on the top of my list after doing an exhaustive search and comparison of all viable bandsaws in this size range that I could find. I think both are a good choice. I was upgrading from a decent Grizzly cast iron 16" bandsaw.

However, I ended up finding a great deal on a used 24" bandsaw (SCM S600P MM24). I'm lucky to have gotten this bandsaw and it is such a pleasure to use.

Obviously, the 24" bandsaw was a much larger saw than I was looking for. After figuring out that it would barely fit in my shop with an 8' ceiling, I made the trip to purchase it. The thing that convinced me it was worth it (other than it being a great price for a bandsaw in this class) is that the space/footprint it takes up isn't as much more as I expected. While it dwarfed my previous bandsaw, the footprint wasn't much larger. Having the extra blade height and depth between the blade and throat really makes it terrific. It came with a carbide toothed 1" blade that still makes resawing wide boards like cutting warm butter with a hot knife.

My suggestion is go big. Go as big as you can afford for a bandsaw. The footprint increase is minimal but the function is exponential.

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[Eric Arnsdorff]

FWIW - I found my decision matrix and I had the Powermatic PM1500 as my 2nd choice. My top 3 from all viable bandsaws I could find on the market:
Harvey HW615P; Powermatic PM1500 and Laguna 18BX:
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But as my prior post indicates - go big! After my upgrade several years ago - I would change this decision matrix with much more weight on the size.

[Tom Trees]

No contest there, a 15" wheel vs 18" for the same money.
If wanting an inch blade (carbide needs more tension) then look for a used CO, or most similar you can find to it.
Not saying you couldn't put 25000PSI with such a blade on the Laguna, but I don't believe it weighs 200kg, which is probably the
ballpark starting point in regards to comfortably tensioning and running long term.
Springs may need be replaced.. see the Swedish article on upgrading the spring on a N4400 to run a CT,
or perhaps Deema and Sideways thread regarding a s45
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/scm-minimax-s45-bandsaw-teardown-overhaul.135069/page-5
"
I briefly had a 200KG machine what wouldn't run right, and the shopkeeper and company rep installed a 1" blade
on it, seemingly in effort to bend it into submission.
Those carriage assembly bolts made big divots in the thin chassis, compared to the thin kerf 3/4" blades I bought for it.
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Not saying don't buy anything but a CO, with foot mounted motor, and perhaps a VFD to tame it, should one wish to go the three phase route,
more likely regarding availability, and much reduced price of such a machine, and not for the gentle starting of nicer bandwheels.

But if I were to go shopping new, in this category of larger cast iron wheels, and reckoned it wasn't too much bother to send it back...
then I'd be looking for something with a slot at the front of the table,
which is the quickest giveaway that a machine will be heavier, i.e better fence, and the rest of the weight likely making things that much more robust,
specifically concerning wheel shaft diameters, and carriage tensioning assembly to match.

Tom

[andy bessette]

Get the Laguna.

[Bill Dufour]

CT, CO. what means?
Bill D

[Tom Trees]

Here's the article for you Bill
https://www.swedishwoodworking.com/articles/upgrading-the-blade-tension-spring-on-the-hammer-n4400-bandsaw/

And the particular era of CO I was referring to, is just about the best designed regular bandsaw ever made.
Many here are very happy with their Minimax saws, as you might have noticed.

The flange or face mounted motors on pretty much anything else, aren't readily adjustable to align with the upper wheel,
though my machine, what came from the same region, one could speculate it was designed with flange mounted motor adjustability in mind,
what doesn't seem to be the case with some manufacturers.
Pot luck buying any bandsaw without that feature, but I suppose good for someone who couldn't afford the machine otherwise,
cuz it would likely be running well..
You might see most of the Italian saws out there feature vulcanized tires, so the chances are that the crown will be gone, on anything with some age to it anyway,
so not just a case of getting another pair of snap on's, and that solving the problem, and for however long they might last, is another story,
one related to alignment, and the other being familiar with the profile of such a crown...

Should one care to look at the very top of the upper wheel of their saw when hand turning blades,
one might see it's less "forgiving" to the eye, than looking at ones thrust guide, i.e the blade will walk on the wheels more than one might think,
on wheels what's out of whack and tires what's not sound.
One could speculate, work for the boys. ;)

All the best
Tom





Tom

[Michael Burnside]

Mike. If you live near a Woodcraft you can have the Laguna shipped to the store for free and pick it up. That’s what I did.

[David Kenagy]

I have the Laguna 18bx. I can’t compare to the other machine, but observations:
- The maximum blade size (resawing) is limited by hardware in the blade path above the upper bearings. The back of a large blade also grinds against screw heads unless you position it further forward than Alex Snodgrass’ video recommends. With my 1/4” blade there’s no problem. But with my 1.25” blade there is. 1” would probably also work fine.
- The brake is more useful than I expected. When I fail to use it, the silent blade continues to run much longer than I realized (low friction is a good thing). That almost harmed a few workpieces (and me).
- The (optional) light isn’t helpful to me. If I position it where it works best, I hit my head on it. If I set the screws that hold it tightly enough to be stable, then it’s too stiff to reposition while working.
- The table insert screws magically migrate upwards, causing it to slowly sink (10 or more hours of use). The consequence can be a workpiece “catching” on the far edge of the table opening, but that’s easy to fix…just requires attention (maybe some thread lock?)
- Table size is great, enabling me to turn small logs into lumber.

Overall, a very satisfying machine.

[Mark Visconti]

An 18bx owner (and hobbyist woodworker) here. I can't believe how long I lived without a bandsaw and despite purchasing it at the peak of its price point am very happy I had it for the past 12 to 18 months.

I mostly use a 1" blade on it.

It was relatively trouble free (I think there was an overtightened bolt somewhere that kept the blade tension release from releasing, but Laguna told me the problem and it was easily fixed). I will say that the stock fence is a little annoying. It tends to shift when tightened so one ends up doing a bit of back and forth with it. There is a post somewhere on this site about adding a set screw to the fence slide to reduce/eliminate this tendency. I did this and am immensely more happy with the fence.

[John TenEyck]

You can effectively resaw 3- 4" for every horsepower the motor has. 3 HP will be an enjoyable resawing experience up to around 9 - 12". If that fits what you have in mind, then one of those machines should fit your needs. If you're thinking about cutting thicker material very often, I'd look for more HP.

John

[Mike Hollis]

I ordered the 18bx and a 1.25” Resaw King blade today. Thanks for all the advice.

[Tom Trees]

Has anyone ever suggested that having such a blade for a sub 200kg machine is a good idea?
Perhaps some light reading from Mr Van Huskey might be in order, to heed fair warning!
This link was only posted recently, but perhaps you missed it.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!

Not sure if you might find folks running carbide tipped blades successfully, under anything but optimal tension for these blades?

Just saying, should you have chance on changing that blade yet.
If you have change left over, should it be proven possible to get a carbide tipped blade to 25000 PSI with something of lesser width on that saw,
as these are thinner gauge to most CT blades, IIRC?...
Guessing 1" may be the minimum, if not possibly 3/4"? ....
then a regular half inch blade would be excellent for any possible troubleshooting beforehand, should your machine arrive without a blade, that can happen.
There would be nothing worse than damaging a carbide blade in an instant, and I wouldn't use one until I got it running nicely with a wideish regular blade prior.

Also might be worth asking in writing, if installing such a blade might void your warranty!

And another PS, buy a metal detector wand for yourself, as if you're going to do some test cutting,
then you will likely have an auld box o'scraps "handy" and the one with the nail will be the one your bandsaw will find!

Good luck
Tom

[andy bessette]

Yeah, I would not try anything wider than 1" on that saw.

[Mike Hollis]

Has anyone ever suggested that having such a blade for a sub 200kg machine is a good idea?
Perhaps some light reading from Mr Van Huskey might be in order, to heed fair warning!
This link was only posted recently, but perhaps you missed it.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!

Not sure if you might find folks running carbide tipped blades successfully, under anything but optimal tension for these blades?

Just saying, should you have chance on changing that blade yet.
If you have change left over, should it be proven possible to get a carbide tipped blade to 25000 PSI with something of lesser width on that saw,
as these are thinner gauge to most CT blades, IIRC?...
Guessing 1" may be the minimum, if not possibly 3/4"? ....
then a regular half inch blade would be excellent for any possible troubleshooting beforehand, should your machine arrive without a blade, that can happen.
There would be nothing worse than damaging a carbide blade in an instant, and I wouldn't use one until I got it running nicely with a wideish regular blade prior.

Also might be worth asking in writing, if installing such a blade might void your warranty!

And another PS, buy a metal detector wand for yourself, as if you're going to do some test cutting,
then you will likely have an auld box o'scraps "handy" and the one with the nail will be the one your bandsaw will find!

Good luck
Tom

Thanks for the link, I will be returning that blade and getting the 1”.

[Tom Trees]

No bothers Mike, it's the best thread on info regarding the make up of blades you'll likely find anywhere,
Where did Van go to anyways, and was he some kind of secret agent bandsaw spy? :cool:

Only messin :D

Good luck with the new machine

Tom

[John TenEyck]

Has anyone ever suggested that having such a blade for a sub 200kg machine is a good idea?
Perhaps some light reading from Mr Van Huskey might be in order, to heed fair warning!
This link was only posted recently, but perhaps you missed it.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!

Not sure if you might find folks running carbide tipped blades successfully, under anything but optimal tension for these blades?

Just saying, should you have chance on changing that blade yet.
If you have change left over, should it be proven possible to get a carbide tipped blade to 25000 PSI with something of lesser width on that saw,
as these are thinner gauge to most CT blades, IIRC?...
Guessing 1" may be the minimum, if not possibly 3/4"? ....
then a regular half inch blade would be excellent for any possible troubleshooting beforehand, should your machine arrive without a blade, that can happen.
There would be nothing worse than damaging a carbide blade in an instant, and I wouldn't use one until I got it running nicely with a wideish regular blade prior.

Also might be worth asking in writing, if installing such a blade might void your warranty!

And another PS, buy a metal detector wand for yourself, as if you're going to do some test cutting,
then you will likely have an auld box o'scraps "handy" and the one with the nail will be the one your bandsaw will find!

Good luck
Tom


Machine mass is irrelevant to anything other than damping vibrations. Whether or not a BS can tension a blade is determined by the stiffness of its frame, nothing more.

But I agree that a 1" blade is a better choice though. There's no benefit of a wider, thicker blade for a hobby user, even if the machine can put enough tension on it.

John

[Tom Trees]

That's an old book where those hymn notes are coming from John,
Perhaps some more light reading from the Van might bring you up to speed on why the Italian's surpassed their competitors,
building "lightweight" machines made from sheet metal with proper cast iron wheels, (spoked at the time)

The Centauro CO being the blueprint of modern bandsaw design, with no cost cutting exceptions made like you see on the rest of the machines today,
whilst the obvious principal regarding this design is for vibration dampness, not solved by adding weight, but by alignment.
This is why the Italian's became the leaders in the business, good manufacturing all starts with good design, and so fourth...
Van has a few posts on the rest, should one care to look.

And since then, there's not really been much difference in chassis design concerning stiffness, (discounting various Far Eastern designs)
some little changes here and there yes,
but I've not see massive changes whilst studying most of the era's of such machines, hence my comment regarding frame stiffness and the weight of the machine
being a darn good judge of that.

Which I guess is where someone like Van comes into play, who's perhaps gone and measured the deflection of near every machine worth talking about on the market,
with various blades and whatnot, to come to the same conclusion as this.
Not to turn up ones nose from everyone else's documentation either, regarding the results they can achieve with a given blade & machine,
what y'all can see for yerselves here, on what most likely has the single biggest resource regarding documentation one could encounter,
behind that Creeker's paywall, what's just too tall for me peek over. :confused:

So you'll have to forgive me pointing out the insouciance regarding the design of anything else but the saws featuring foot mounted motors,
i.e the Centauro/Minimax machines,
what feature adjustability for it to be possible to align with the upper bandwheel.

Now, lots of folks here may roll their eyes up to heaven on that one, but they're not able to explain the collection of machines around the world
with the cowboy antics regarding that lower wheel, which you can't un-see once the doors are opened.

All the best
Tom

[John Lanciani]

So you'll have to forgive me pointing out the insouciance regarding the design of anything else but the saws featuring foot mounted motors,
i.e the Centauro/Minimax machines,
what feature adjustability for it to be possible to align with the upper bandwheel.

Now, lots of folks here may roll their eyes up to heaven on that one, but they're not able to explain the collection of machines around the world
with the cowboy antics regarding that lower wheel, which you can't un-see once the doors are opened.

All the best
Tom


You keep harping on "foot mounted motors on Centauro saws" but as a former owner of a 2006 Centauro (Mini-Max) 20" saw I can say with 100% authority you are wrong Tom. The motors on these saws are face mounted to the chassis of the saw. With slotted holes to allow belt tightening. The lower wheel is mounted on a fully adjustable stub spindle and belt driven.

[Erik Loza]

Machine mass is irrelevant to anything other than damping vibrations. Whether or not a BS can tension a blade is determined by the stiffness of its frame, nothing more…

Correct. The contemporary Centauros definitely each have their own “harmonic” when running. For example, an MM16 can create enough tension to snap a brand-new 1.0” Lenox Tri-Master (don’t ask me how I know :o) but there is still a noticeable vibration when the machine is running.


…The motors on these saws are face mounted to the chassis of the saw. With slotted holes to allow belt tightening. The lower wheel is mounted on a fully adjustable stub spindle and belt driven.

Also correct….

Erik

[Tom Trees]

The good ones have foot mounted motors, much the same as the original design when the changeover to sheet metal construction happened.
I never said all of the CO machines were the same.
Here's what looks to be the earliest example of CO I've seen, though I haven't gone to too much bother like an owner might,
but my impression is something like these being amongst the first, though I'm not sure when Centauro shifted to solid wheels,
sometime just before the machine Andrew has I guess..if the guidepost or door handle are anything to go by.
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Then some green machines
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This machine might be re-painted?
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Guessing these are just before Andrew's machine
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I haven't looked at the badges to see the earliest date on the solid wheel CO series, but seen plenty of early 80's machines.
Powermatic badged some Italian looking saws at one stage, what looked like it might have been amongst the earliest of them?
Guess there's some folks here more fimiliar with this like Eric for example.

Not to discount other Italian manufacturers either, since we're talking the best of the best
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And some Minimax machines obviously
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And just for fun, the mythical Centauro CO PTO Series... ;)
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[Erik Loza]

The good ones have foot mounted motors…

Tom, not sure what you mean by “the good ones” but just to put it into perspective, there are probably 100X the number of contemporary Minimax-badged Centauros in actual operation today, as vintage ones, and the modern ones have a pretty stellar track record. Sure, there were switch issues for a hot minute but as far as mechanics and construction of the machine, I simply never saw issues that would require the kind of disassembly/tweaking/fiddling, etc. that some Creekers seem to be experiencing with their vintage saws. So, no offense taken but I would actually argue that the modern Centauros are superior, from an actual usability standpoint, to the earlier ones. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[John Lanciani]

"The good ones have foot mounted motors, much the same as the original design when the changeover to sheet metal construction happened.
I never said all of the CO machines were the same."

The good ones like yours that you've spent the past two years fiddling around trying to get to work? Get real...

[Tom Trees]

Depends on ones perspective, I suppose.
I've seen and experienced damage concerning wheel bores, along with mentioning the Far Eastern design
which I had previously, which both the localish shopkeeper, and also the rep from the UK, couldn't get to run well,
and I believe I was the first to open the pallet, only to see the jacking screws on the hub were fully retracted, damaged and hanging on by a thread.

I could also point out some of the modern CO machines on YT, should you spot the ones not running nicely, have the flange mount motors.
It'd be interesting to see how they'd fair up with a new set of snap ons, and the longest belt one could fit to the machine,
compared to the older ones what can be aligned, without much fuss compared.

Oh, forgot to mention your point perhaps,
The tires would need dressing on the older ones, but they do seemingly last better compared.

All the best
Tom

[Tom Trees]

"The good ones have foot mounted motors, much the same as the original design when the changeover to sheet metal construction happened.
I never said all of the CO machines were the same."

The good ones like yours that you've spent the past two years fiddling around trying to get to work? Get real...

Sorry missed your post there John
You get me wrong, I've been much longer spending time Centaurolizing my solid wheel ACM machine, which did lend itself to the mod rather easily,
but perhaps not to some, hence my recommendation on the foot mounted motors.
One could speculate this is made so, should they study the pulley.
That wasn't much bother to make a plate up, i.e I wouldn't discount a bargain on an Italian machine again, just as long as the wheel bores were sound.

What took me the time, probably a decade of questioning things, with the machine cutting very badly, whilst being clueless, due to any guide of sorts whatsoever,
and the misinformation regarding the crowned tire profile on these machines, which I presume is the same as the Centauro CO,
i.e the apex of the crown 1mm closer to the front of the wheel on the CO 600, as is the spare snap on tire from the official dealer (Scott&SargeantUK)

And I've made some previous videos which partially explains how to dress tires (though with a flat profile, what doesn't work well)
and documented some altercations in regards to whats needed to dress them with a camber,
though I used some auld sawplate from a hand saw, what would be much improved should one source some dirt cheap circular saw plate, i.e Lidl/Aldi middle isle special,
what one could cut with a grinder to make a proper scraper from.

The other videos, prove it doesn't take long when you do things right, well for a solid wheeled saw, it's straight forward to get the wheels to spec.
The rest is easy provided one has a foot mounted motor.

Lets just hope Centauro still makes the foot mount motors, I can't find offhand, new CO machines what's not the HD line,
as I'd hate to see a smaller wheel installed on one.

All the best
Tom

[Tom Trees]

I can't seem to find any of what I guess might be a unicorn, in regarding the best CO what's out there,
but I can see ones point in looking for one with both the foot mount motor, and the grooved wheels, what take the snap on flavour tires.
That I suppose is the ultimate, or least effort from a serviceability standpoint, in a situation where breakdowns need be speedily sorted.

I've seen old Centauro's which feature the groove, and what's possibly interesting to some, dressed faces of the wheels what's on the Uk forum,
of you look up the SSP
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Or seemingly on the S45, like this one...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/scm-minimax-s45-bandsaw-teardown-overhaul.135069/

So it's quite likely such a CO exists, and possibly for a long run at that?
I presume there's plenty of Minimax machines what features both.

I tried searching for those Italian Powermatics, but not sure if it were a Centauro saw afterall, could only find a 900mm wheeled machine.
And I sent a picture of a Multico earlier, which I'm not sure is Italian like the Meber's?
some of those also featuring the foot mounted motors.

Funnily enough, it seems that nearly all the saws in this class now, feature the old style vulcanized tires,
which one might imagine the opposite, but I suppose there's someone like Chris Vesper providing a tire vulcanizing or re-crowning service,
to dress those tires on the new SCM machines in the USA?
Laguna's HD line being the same, as far as I know aswell.

That would make a nice wee earner for someone, take the wheels only, and they might be back again should they be running narrow blades,
on a saw what's not got a foot mounted motor in the first place.
Good to know at least there is still some leeway concerning these machines, should one study the depth of the pulley,
what simplifies things, or lends itself towards the mod, with whatever thickness plate one might have lying around.
Could even grind that ring down either, that wasn't possible on my machine as the chassis is further away from the wheel.
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So I chose to make a plate instead, fully adjstable to align with the column for getting rid of any vibration, and to be aligned with the upper wheel.
Some fine tuning of the depth of the pulley....
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Plenty of adjustment on these ACM machines, regardless what thickness plate you've got.
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That column was checked for trueness regarding being able to trust it, and also for one who wishes for whatever reason,
(guidepost alignment in two axis, whilst also concerning tire thickness)
Levelling is actually a frustrating experience, if wanting accuracy, but with the plumb line supported using four blocks for the column,
it's an easy enough job now, and I can open the door in the shed whilst doing so.

I've maxed out my picture count again, but you've all likely seen that already....
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Along with the scribing beam, what can spot a machine what's not sound, should it be running unsatisfactory,
what one could use to get the best possible alignment from a longevity standpoint, regarding components,
but also what would prove to the retailers, a new customers troublesome machine will be getting sent straight back without any arguments,
as there's no denying that the line tells all.

Unless one might get spun some garbage about the upper wheel... not being the datum for the motor and lower wheel to allign with.
Wouldn't surprise me, from what I was told on the phone regarding the Far Eastern flavour saw, it would be technically impossible for the machine to be misaligned,
as they're built around the wheels, and they got lazers too! :p

What's the old saying...if you can't make it accurate, then make it adjustable.
That seems to be the way things were done.
Might try digging some old threads regarding "the old man in Centauro" who was displeased about something.......
Or is that just me having another good old troll again? :rolleyes:

Well y'know guys, all those little stories were probably of much use regarding inspiring me to figure out how to really get a machine set up with precision,
so gotta say thanks for that all.

Regards
Tom

[Dan Barber]

I recently acquired the BX18 and the 1-1/4" Resaw King. I'm very happy with the results. I'm actually using it to rip stock as I currently don't have the space for a table saw (yet). I think you would have been fine with 1-1/4, but 1" will do well too. It's not going to affect your warranty either. From the Laguna manual "Maximum blade width: 1-1/4", "Minimum blade width: 1/8" " I'm a little sceptical on the 1/8", but I bought Timberwolf 1/8', 3/16" and 1/4" to try out. I really like the machine, congrats on you purchase. Seems like there are lots of opinions out there.

[Tom Trees]

What gauge and type of blade does it state is that "maximum blade width", and do they give the specs for various given blades
as in PSI, normally this is never mentioned, and it takes real effort to get those figures from an engineer,
and worth noting ,you won't be having that conversation if you've not got a proper tension meter.

I wouldn't give any of these companies the chance to fob people off, they'd jump on that one, just like I experienced with my first saw regarding the loose jacking screws,
and you may left high and dry because of it, and I'd say this about the"smaller" inch blade, at that, if the machine isn't running smoothly,
Not to mention for the sake of a carbide blade also.

You can't blame the retailers really, regarding bandsaw design, they've got a stinking job,
as they're not selling something what's a guaranteed design with foot mounted or otherwise adjustable motor,
so someone's going to get a lemon.

I've seen a fair few of these machines now not running too nicely, one what's seemingly been used as table
as the Jurassic park test, doesn't seem to be taken seriously, and I doubt a nickel test would either,
Though worth mentioning, one youtuber who's made a series on that saw, was able to get a new wheel,
so it was nice to see that for some balance on the matter.
Good results were achieved in the end, so fair play to the retailer on that one.

That didn't seem to go down well for me with my previous 20" Far Eastern saw,
though I didn't make a video series, but posted some snaps and asked some questions on a forum, where other owners were present,
before coming to the conclusion the machine needed be returned, and contacting the retailer.

It's quite likely, that started things off on a bad note, and I wouldn't be surprised if many retailers still feel the same way today.
So it's up to the clueless newbie to get knowledgable fast about these things...
How fast, one might ask?
Well, one piece of advice is, don't go making a custom base for the machine before you get the chance to test it properly! :)

All the best
Tom

[Tom Trees]

Looking again at my post, regarding that Minimax machine, it seems John and Erik are spot on.
I had a search for some more Minimax saws, or what's likely the same machine branded as Technomax across the pond,
and couldn't find anything of any age, bar the S45N,
and looking into when Minimax started properly in the USA, it seems they were brought in around 2002.
Centauro CO machines of that age seem to be white and have the colourful sticker on front, and seemingly only found with the flange mounted motor,
so thought to find some machines from the 1990's era, but very little of them on the ground as it were.
It seems it could be identical to the 1980's machine, as the door handle is the same.
It'd be interesting to know if the wheels were the snap on flavour.

Not yet sure when Centauro went with an all white paint scheme, but wondering if there might be some machine featuring both motor adjustability
and grooved wheels, during some period during the 90's.
So apologies should I've sent one of ye on a wild goose chase.

Tom
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[andy bessette]

My Centauro MiniMax was white.

https://i.postimg.cc/zDcc8Z2K/IMG-2364.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RqwRL8BZ)

[Tom Trees]

Very clean saw Andy, it looks like it's ne'r been lugged onto a trailer.
Would'a been nice to paint mine properly, but was eager to get stuck into other stuff.

Found what looks to be the youngest CO what looks to be featuring the foot mounted motor, if I'm not mistaken like the Minimax photo
I provided earlier, with the shroud what looked like a mounting plate.
This is a grey and white scheme, which doesn't seem all too common, and seemingly the last of the foot mounted motors.
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And also noted some of the two tone paint schemes are still present on a 2004 machine, though the all white ones can be found earlier than that.
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So I looked a little more, to find what might be an in-between, and found out it's a greenish two tone which was produced in the late 1990's.
These seem to be a bit cheaper built compared to the older and newer ones, not featuring a mitre slot, nor near solid wheels.
Perhaps that might have been the cause for upset regarding Van's (IIRC) post about the old man,
as it's surely not such a nice machine compared to the others, and I haven't seen mention of those style wheels in the brochures
but gleaned that the spoked vs disc thing is optional.
Other notable things regarding this machine having what looks like replacement cork/rubber tires, so that likely solves that, looking for a white machine having both features.
Interesting to go looking yet again for more Centauro's, as it was everything else I was trying to glean information on.:rolleyes:
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Found some more CO machines, seems in 1996 they were changed over to the flange mounted motor by then
The 1993 machine is might be the last of those
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So seemingly no unicorn there in the end, and there's no one hour service for CO's which may be troublesome.
Either way, something what can be likely prepared for in good time, what might not be so quick with some other machines.

All the best
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Looking again at my post, regarding that Minimax machine, it seems John and Erik are spot on.
I had a search for some more Minimax saws, or what's likely the same machine branded as Technomax across the pond,
and couldn't find anything of any age, bar the S45N,
and looking into when Minimax started properly in the USA, it seems they were brought in around 2002.
Centauro CO machines of that age seem to be white and have the colourful sticker on front, and seemingly only found with the flange mounted motor,
so thought to find some machines from the 1990's era, but very little of them on the ground as it were.
It seems it could be identical to the 1980's machine, as the door handle is the same.
It'd be interesting to know if the wheels were the snap on flavour.

Not yet sure when Centauro went with an all white paint scheme, but wondering if there might be some machine featuring both motor adjustability
and grooved wheels, during some period during the 90's.
So apologies should I've sent one of ye on a wild goose chase.

Tom

Tom, Centauro was the OEM manufacturer for the SCM/MiniMax machines for many years (with the exception of the S45N which was made in-house) and the SCM/MiniMax color was and still is the off-white color. Red or blue markings changed around from time to time and the Technomax name was also used here in North America...the S315WS slider I owned had that label on it, with blue markings. Later versions adopted red markings, etc. My MM16 circa about 2004 is white with blue markings. And flat, non-crowned wheels. A couple years ago, SCM went with a different OEM manufacturer for the current bandsaw lineup.

[Erik Loza]

To add some context to Jim’s comments, the first “‘Minimax USA-spec’ed” Centauros I am aware of were imported into the US in 2001. I have definitely seen 2001 MM16s. There might have been some in 2000s but please don’t quote me on this. Anything prior to that would most likely have been a one-off import, most likey still configured for the European market. Centauro bandsaws were not readily available in the US until Minimax USA was formed.

The MM16 went through a number of design changes over it’s life but it’s important to note that the MM16 of today is different enough in design from the vintage Centauros that comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. IMHO, that is the real upshot of this conversation.

Erik

[andy bessette]

My MM16 was produced in 2004.

[Tom M King]

I don't know when my 600 was made. I just plug it in and use it. Flange mounted motor, flat tires, last real use was 10, 000 lineal feet of Cypress on edge making shingles. I bought it from Johnny Means who posts here. He as at least the second owner.

[John Lanciani]

Thousands of saws in use every day with flange mounted motors and flat tires working properly. One guy with a saw that was most likely dropped or tipped over or otherwise used up and now we all need to get out our torches and cut holes in our saws and go all Rube Goldberg on them...

The irony is all of the "features" that he is pining for are available on many of the vintage and antique saws that he also rails against; my 1952 Yates-American 20" saw weighs 650 lbs, has a foot mounted motor, upper and lower wheels that are adjustable in all 3 axis, crowned tires on spoked cast iron wheels, fully adjustable guides, and a 3 phase motor with VFD for speed control. (I only replaced the MM20 that I had with it because I prefer the soul of antique machines)

[Tom Trees]

Thanks for your replies folks.
I must admit regarding my comment of "the good ones", I've changed my mind to the same as with Erik,
as I wasn't aware that seemingly all of the older CO's don't have a mitre slot.
I'd sooner make one of those fully adjustable, than not have that.

Nice to know the features on the likes of Yeats saw is present, but take some of the stuff you might see on OWWM,
or even the saw Keith Rucker's restored with wooden wheels for example.
Not saying one needs to dress the faces of the wheels for alignment,
as they could somehow clamp something to the wheel instead somehow, but for someone with vulcanized rubber, on a cast iron wheel,
there's two reasons, compared to a newer Centauro with snap on's featuring the alignment groove.

Yes there's thousands of saws using such non adjustable motors, basically a thoughtless rendition of the Italian designs,
and there are many running rough, or worse, from day 1, which didn't take a fall.

Then you've got all the small wheeled machines out there, from differing factories, which I don't believe you've got an answer for.
I'm not here to shame, and I've done enough by the mention of such a bodge,
though I could PM someone who might be interested, just not fair to do so on an open forum,
and the same regarding the brand new Far Eastern machine I had prior, seems the branding has changed, as well as most of the design,
that's fair game, and feelings at best are getting hurt, not someone's livelyhood.


The way I see it, regarding a machine what's running well, at the end of the day, you either don't care about the components like wheel bores or tire wear,
or you do.
The flange mounted motor design means someone's going to get a lemon which they'd need to fix, (fair game when everyone's doing the same thing)
and once the line drawn from the upper wheel is done...then I think you might change your mind if you seen what you had to work with,
and question if that is indeed, the path you're suggesting for the blades to point at.

One could speculate if all the machines were made so, there'd be a lot more folks not buying anything new.

All the best
Tom

[Tom Trees]

I don't know when my 600 was made. I just plug it in and use it. Flange mounted motor, flat tires, last real use was 10, 000 lineal feet of Cypress on edge making shingles. I bought it from Johnny Means who posts here. He as at least the second owner.

Been there done that with the flat tire experiments, and basically proved the difference on the bandsaw forum with the old blade with a damaged set
for a real test, before and after crowning, a notable difference, as blade refused to cut beforehand.
Pity I didn't see this manual for the SP, which will likely be a direct download from possible questionable source, didn't seem to cause problems for me, nor others on the UKforum

I guess there's plenty of photos out there with someone using a ruler or whatever on the tires, (discounting the photos of those troubleshooting, and which might seem
obsessive to those who've got it easy, well at least for now)
but just because a rule may seem to lay on the rubber, that doesn't account for what the blade feels, as quoted from the old SP manual below.
What I've pictured multiple times the profile of a CO tire, stretched out flat, with a gap accounting for the tongue, to get an honest look,
because when a flat profiled object is bent around a circumference, then there's "anticlastic curvature" at play, so perhaps one would need something different to a bladed item
to get an honest look how the tire behaves when stretched onto a wheel.

Tom

intervesp.ddns.net/?sitemap/file/6sh-nSuQ&view=%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0 %B0%20%D0%B8%20%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B E%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BE%D0%B1%D 1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5%20%D1%8 1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8/Centauro/SP0305gb.pdf

That's the best Italian bandsaw manual I've ever read by a long shot.

Here's an interesting snippet which I cannot screenshot....
" MAIN TROUBLE AND RELATIVE REMEDIES "


The blade moves very far back when it receives the cutting force
- Insufficient flywheel seal convexity, notify the technical service of the area dealer.

[Tom Trees]

So there we have it, by the looks of things everyone's accounts alignment is important, and the design on all needs changing,
That is...for every machine to go out the door running very nicely, or at least what can be adjusted as such.

Van Huskey's posts, wherever he's hiding...
Suppose he's got magic fingers like some of the rest, and can do a better job of getting any fimiliar saw running,
than the people who build them, test them and so fourth....

"I don't know it is kinda hard to explain but it has to do with the fact that they are sorta like dogs. Each has its own personality, not just every make and model but each individual saw but when you get to know them they become like an old pal. When you first adopt them they can be kind of angry and/or scared but with a little love they begin to open up and do what you ask of them. They are also quite versatile and make the best case to have multiples in the shop. I guess I just like the fact they are so simple but yet confound when it comes to setting them up."

And those who've got it easy with their superior skills, would like to see things kept the way they are,
as it keeps the economy going, and better luck the next time round, kinda thing?
However, that's not answering the question, and a philosophical opinion.

The game's up regarding good design, and unless the questions I've asked can be answered...

i.e the smaller wheels, where one draws the line with vibration when things aren't a bodge, and that's with a longer than spec belt used, and the motor being
cranked up as high as the table in some cases...
how much walking of the blade (and associated tire wear with it) is acceptable when looking at 12 o'clock on that upper wheel, when even hand turning wheels,
much clearer impression than looking at the thrust guide.

All one could ask about maximum discrepancies of wheel alignment, and associated bearing bore wear in the wheels.
More questions regarding the longevity of standard blades which have set teeth, which can get compressed on a misaligned saw.
The complete lack of clarity on the whole "flat" tire thing, jobs for the boys, should there actually be any lads in the USA, like Chris Vesper for example.
That flutter guide something what might prove to be interesting, in regards to it being mainly BS, as it seems like the idea has stuck.
and likely a bunch more things what's unanswered,

So unless these things are challenged and/or explained, then there is indeed a revision needed in the design.

Should there be someone doing this kinda thing like Chris across the pond,
then it'll hopefully send quite a bit of business their way, for those who aren't making excuses, and haven't got the time to put in some work on their saw,
or just a decent second hand outfit who can guarantee all of the things mentioned won't be an issue.

All the best
Tom

.

[Chris Parks]

Tom, Chris Vesper is Australian and I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve but that is my problem, not yours. The whole thing has baffled from the get go to tell the truth.

[Tom Trees]

No bothers Chris, you might have a look at the posts on the "troublesome to some" Centauro CO,
of which flavour which has full adjustability compared to the rest of the line.

The bottom line being...
Some dawgs are far more stubborn than the usual ones ya get from the pound, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get a home,
as those make the best companions in the end of the day.
One might say going to an acclaimed registered breeder and picking up a pup, might give a better idea of knowing the temperament,
but at the end of the day.. there's still no guarantee of that!
So one might try the usual training routines and techniques, before going on a visit to the ranch.

511707

All the best
Tom

[Chris Parks]

No bothers Chris, you might have a look at the posts on the "troublesome to some" Centauro CO,
of which flavour which has full adjustability compared to the rest of the line.

The bottom line being...
Some dawgs are far more stubborn than the usual ones ya get from the pound, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get a home,
as those make the best companions in the end of the day.
One might say going to an acclaimed registered breeder and picking up a pup, might give a better idea of knowing the temperament,
but at the end of the day.. there's still no guarantee of that!
So one might try the usual training routines and techniques, before going on a visit to the ranch.

511707

All the best
Tom

Tom, can you tell us in a few words what you are trying to achieve because I know there are a lot of people here are totally baffled and have been for a long time. No one can engage in the conversation if they don't understand what started all this, what has happened and if you have found an answer. What I have quoted is meaningless to me and I guess a lot of others as well.

[Tom Trees]

Tom, can you tell us in a few words what you are trying to achieve because I know there are a lot of people here are totally baffled and have been for a long time. No one can engage in the conversation if they don't understand what started all this, what has happened and if you have found an answer. What I have quoted is meaningless to me and I guess a lot of others as well.

Accurate alignment of everything, for a smooth running machine, and for the longevity of components.


If you'd seen the... what at best can be called clueless experimentation regarding wheel alignment, using a spirit level and rule,
compared to actually using those tools correctly, like in the other Centauro post which I explained, in detail, some pages back,
Then they could instantly dismiss anyone using a beam of any kind for the same purpose of alignment,
as they won't be seeing the variability in which the pen shows up.

So alignment starts with dressed faces of the wheels.
I had to dress my wheels to around 0.2mm as the upper one had the most discrepancy, @0.5mm..
which turned out to give a projected variable of 4mm.

On my 600mm wheeled machine, that variable which the pen draws on the floor of the machine, one won't
get a true reading (a straight line) until the wheels are within tolerance,

Once you have that datum line drawn from the upper wheel ...
the upper wheel being non adjustable in 99% of Italian welded sheet steel saws/or others styled as such..
then its just a case of lining up the motor and lower wheel to match to the line,
Simple enough right?
well..
The motor not being adjustable on most of those style bandsaws, bar very few might complicate matters, as mentioned above.

Cheerio
Tom

[Chris Parks]

Accurate alignment of everything, for a smooth running machine, and for the longevity of components. Cheerio
Tom

Thanks Tom.

[Erik Loza]

…the upper wheel being non adjustable in 99% of Italian welded sheet steel saws/or others styled as such…

That is absolutely incorrect.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

That is absolutely incorrect.

Erik

Well... I suppose everything is adjustable if you want it to be, though I wouldn't want to skew the upper wheel to suit the lower one, that'd be a bit odd,
wouldn't it?

Someone was at this before on my saw, and attempted such bodgery that they wished for it ne'r to be seen, by somehow jamming up the roll pin
on the tension screw handle, which took a lot of attempts with everything I had, did I mention those Italian castings can take a beating?
Took grinding that roll pin out, and it was still there needing clouts, even after most of it was ground away.
511774511775
Seems the idea might have worked, if it were the other side of the carriage.
They obviously had no scribing beam what would have drawn a line to tell them that.
511777511778511779511780

Now, as I was saying I've not studied some of the elements regarding the Centauro CO series,
but I have tried to get the best glimpse of the inner workings of the machine, specifically regarding the bits which interested me.

So perhaps I missed something there, but it seems to me there's no adjustablity of the upper wheel on any welded steel chassis machine I've seen,
bar the Centauro S45N, with some possible determined intervention.

I've seen some other designs, what might look like it's possible though, not really got a good look.
That bodge above made a nice job of the carriage assembly bolt too, so I had the chance of skewing the upper wheel, but chose not to

511776

Some further Centaurolizing on the screw, might have gone a bit OTT with that one:rolleyes:
Wouldn't have made it so hefty again, as it needs a hand to stop the second roll pin from rubbing against the carriage when the wheels at it's lowest point.
Should for some reason or another, someone find really cheap blades what's too short for the machine really, then holding down the wheel to change a blade
might be of annoyance.

511781


Correct me if I'm wrong with that though.

Tom

[Erik Loza]

….I wouldn't want to skew the upper wheel to suit the lower one, that'd be a bit odd, wouldn't it?…

That is, in fact, precisely how you adjust blade tracking on any contemporary Italian bandsaw: Centauro, ACM, Agazzani, Meber, etc. They are all adjusted the exact same way. The lower wheel is adjusted to a fixed angle and the upper wheel, through a quick manual camber adjustment, is how you establish blade tracking.



…the Centauro S45N….

The S45N is manufactured by Minimax, not Centauro, though the blade tracking adjustment procedure is identical.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Wheel alignment and/or bandsaw setup is a quite distinct subject, compared to blade tracking though, as I was referring to Andrew's CO
in particular, as it's the only Centauro machine which one can adjust for horizontal rotation, and the motor allow for the adjustment.

Since the upper wheelnot being adjustable in this regards, the lower wheel must match, and therefore the motor must also do the same,
and if you aint got a machine with a foot mounted motor, then you might have to bodge things like mentioned a page or so back.

Not sure if you'd like me to be more clear about this, but I presume every creeker with a bandsaw has likely seen it allready.
I don't think we need keep going back to the blade tracking tutorial videos again, do we really need to..again? :confused:

Regards
Tom

[Dan Barber]

I'm sorry, this thread is making my brain hurt. I'm trying to understand what's being posted, but my little brain is not able to decipher the circular intergalactical language that I'm encountering. Hopefully one of you has a grasp on this and can help out. I for one can't at this point.

[Erik Loza]

…the lower wheel must match, and therefore the motor must also do the same...

Not in my experience. I guess that if we were talking about a bandsaw with a direct-drive motor, “motor alignment” would a thing but with belt-driven bandsaws, even if the motor was crooked, I imagine that the belt(s) would would either jump the pulley, fray their edges, or something along those lines long before cutting performance suffered.

Not sure why I am even replying to these types of posts any longer. To the bandsaw users on the Creek, if you have an Italian bandsaw and can’t get it cutting the way you want, PM me and I’ll share how I set up one up, no step of which involves cutting or modifying your machine. Peace-out: Too many other things to devote mental energy to.

Erik

[Chris Parks]

I'm sorry, this thread is making my brain hurt. I'm trying to understand what's being posted, but my little brain is not able to decipher the circular intergalactical language that I'm encountering. Hopefully one of you has a grasp on this and can help out. I for one can't at this point.

I have been reading Tom's posts in various fora for some years hence why I asked him to tell us what he is on about and like you I still have no idea. His style of writing, sentence construction, bad formatting etc leave me bewildered. Sorry Tom but do you ever look at the posts you put up because I for one find them unintelligible for the most part. Post #48 is an example of this but actually better than most os his posts but his thinking and explanations are beyond me and always have been.

[Tom Trees]

The S45N is manufactured by Minimax, not Centauro, though the blade tracking adjustment procedure is identical.

Erik

Cheers, I keep forgetting that one, as the paint scheme is very similar on the old green ones.
It's not as hefty as the larger saws what comfortably can handle a hefty gauge 1" blade, so I haven't an in-depth familiarity with them.


Not in my experience. I guess that if we were talking about a bandsaw with a direct-drive motor, “motor alignment” would a thing but with belt-driven bandsaws, even if the motor was crooked, I imagine that the belt(s) would would either jump the pulley, fray their edges, or something along those lines long before cutting performance suffered.

Not sure why I am even replying to these types of posts any longer. To the bandsaw users on the Creek, if you have an Italian bandsaw and can’t get it cutting the way you want, PM me and I’ll share how I set up one up, no step of which involves cutting or modifying your machine. Peace-out: Too many other things to devote mental energy to.

Erik


A friendly little game of spot the difference, for one who thinks wheel alignment is not of importance,
and as I was saying, it's probably better we don't play the final rounds, but can do ya a light hearted round or two without going there. :)

Perhaps I can give clues too, like mentioning one of these designs from what I can see, isn't guaranteed to run well.




511819511820


Regards
Tom

[Jim Becker]

Cheers, I keep forgetting that one, as the paint scheme is very similar on the old green ones.
The S45N has been the same off-white color as the rest of the SCM/Minimax bandsaws since the very early 2000s.

[Tom Trees]

There seems quite a few paint schemes on those, mainly the two tone green ones I see, the butter coloured ones, and also the off white ones which you mention.
but see pineapple yellow and red coloured ones too, which I've not seen round these parts on the bay.

It's an interesting machine in it's own right, as it's not quite the norm construction wise,
and seemingly a possibility, the faces of those wheels being dressed, as you don't see them painted,
nor featuring the same tool marks as seen on most other Italian wheels.

It'd be interesting to read how accurate the wheels on one of those might be.
Though like myself, most folk might have dismissed the value of accurate wheel faces before.

Sure seemed to help the guy with the series of troubleshooting videos on a Laguna 18bx, who got another wheel sent to him, (one pulled from the showroom machine IIRC)
though there are many other possible variables with those strange wheels which muddies the waters, and I don't know if there's a groove for tire alignment in the wheels.
511855
That might be worth mentioning, for those who've got replacement pre crowned tires, to install on a wheel without any sort of alignment groove,
as no-one wants a variable crown on their wheels.

All the best
Tom