I don't believe

[Richard Hutchings]

People actually make money selling wooden products. I've been building all my life to some degree and never sold anything for profit. The junk I've seen that actually sells, so they say, cutting boards at the top of the list. What a m8nd numbing way to make your money back. Seriously, I walked by a booth at a craft show and the guy had the boards and wine stoppers and all this woodcraft marketed stuff. Nobody even slowed down. What's the truth? What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?

[Keegan Shields]

IMO to make a decent living as a solo woodworker you need to find a niche that’s not easily filled by mass production.

Artsy studio furniture / one off pieces sold to wealthy clients fits this criteria - assuming you can find the clients. You are providing a unique piece of furniture that none of their friends have. But you need to be good at marketing yourself and develop a brand.

Turning a profit making cutting boards, wine stoppers etc. requires the economies found in mass production. Not something I’d want to do. Now if you enjoy doing it as a hobby that makes some money on the side and you like sitting at craft shows talking to people, that’s a different story.

The individual craftsman making a living building one item at a time became the exception during the last Industrial Revolution. Recall that even the great James Krenov was supported by his wife’s income as a school teacher for years before he made a name for himself.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

SMC contributor Zach Hoyt uses a mixture of hand and power tools. He is productive. His blog is encouraging. Most of the cutting board guys I see at craft fairs have power shops. I have a retired friend who is able to sell quite a few craft items. He also has some power tools. Having your items in the right store in a good location is helpful.

[Richard Hutchings]

Let me just add, I don't need to make a living at it. It would be nice to earn a little extra. I'll c9me up with something I'm sure.

[mike stenson]

Making money at any creative endeavor, let alone making a living, is a tough hustle. At least outside of purely commercial pursuits. Aas an example, I know more cabinet makers that make a living at it than I do purely custom furniture makers. The same is true for the people I went to art school with. There are fewer doing well with gallery shows than commercial pursuits. It's why I code for a living now.

I don't personally know anyone who actually makes their money back, including paying themselves, at craft shows.

[Richard Hutchings]

Sigh, maybe I should build decks. Nooooo, I'm to old for that. Oh well, that's why I decided to work part-time at my job instead of retirement. That way I can continue to have fun with hand tools and such.

[mike calabrese]

People actually make money selling wooden products. I've been building all my life to some degree and never sold anything for profit. The junk I've seen that actually sells, so they say, cutting boards at the top of the list. What a m8nd numbing way to make your money back. Seriously, I walked by a booth at a craft show and the guy had the boards and wine stoppers and all this woodcraft marketed stuff. Nobody even slowed down. What's the truth? What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?
First off you are never going to cover your hours and materials let alone make a decent profit. Think about it this way you can build a very nice dining table from fine wood and maybe a live edge or epoxy inlay and advertise it at lets say $5000.00. The time and material you will have in while it sits around looking for a buyer if you ever do will give you heart burn.
On the other hand you can build small stuff that everybody brags about that builds fast and sells for high profit. here is a huge list of folks making a killing selling woodworking stuff , https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=woodworking+items+that+sell+f ast+

one guy in that list even talks about making 2.6 million on one product https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpphSeKdxw0.
This guy makes cutting boards has it down to a science and is doing very well from what I can discover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJTNwx4FyT8

The reality the $$ and time you spend in materials , making, marketing, or getting someone else to market for you are seldom recovered.
My own personal story that has just recently just started to take off is segmented bowls. I make them because I like them but I also want to sell them. On Etsy and ebay the bowl pictured below would sell for about $175.00 based on the similar stuff I see posted there. That is before the middle man gets a cut my time to pack it, ship it and so on. I have sold the three bowls shown here over a period of about 5 months. But I had them placed in a high end gallery in a high traffic tourist town. The problem there is they are selling but the gallery takes a 40% of the retail price. So for 3 bowls so far that I could struggle to sell myself if ever I have found a process where I make and drop off product and rely on an established venue to sell my stuff. My net for the 3 products pictured here is just over $600.00 not much for my time and materials and everything that goes along with making segmented bowls of some complexity.

The bottom line is.... the bottom line isn't .
calabrese55

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[Mark Hennebury]

What's the difference between these identical tables?

Table A. $60,000.510769 Table B. $1000.510769

$59,000,

Table A. is "made" by someone famous and can sell for $60,000 and one Table B. is made by a "nobody" and will sell for maybe $1,000, which is less than the cost of the materials.

Value is a fictional concept created in the mind, it has no basis in the physical world. It is a perception created by influence.

For instance table A. may never actually have been made by George but by a nobody that worked for him, could be the very same nobody that left George and worked from his own shop and made table B.

[Derek Cohen]

I am probably never going to have the time to build for money. I don't care. My payment has been worth much more than this.

There is quite a goodly investment in tools over the decades, which is offset by the furniture it has built, not to mention a couple of kitchens and house restorations. Over 80% of our house is furnished by my builds, and I have made dents into the homes of family and friends. The payment is priceless, and the demand will see me through at least a decade more.

I have often thought about an extra monetary income, but it always comes back to the same point - I'd rather have the time to do what I want for myself than give it away for an inconsequential income.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Hughes]

Marks right we saw this happen when Sam m. Passed nobody wanted his chairs without his signature on it. From what I know the workers didn’t want to drop their prices.
I haven’t been able to enter the small handcrafted market in my small town tried going high tried going low.
I haven’t done a craft shows for years the last one felt like trying to sell buggy whips to cars driving by.
Maybe someday until then I’m have fun.
Good Luck

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It helps to have a healthy appetite for cold dog soup and rainbow pie while you attempt to create a body of work.

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[Mark Hennebury]

"What's the truth? What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?"

The answer is nothing or anything! Nothing if you are a nobody, anything if you are famous!

You have to build a perception!
A perception that you are special, everything that you touch becomes special, every one that knows you something about you, or owns something you made becomes special. That's what people pay for, not the work that you have done, only the feeling they get from owning it.

Figure that out and you wont have to work hard.

James. 510771 George. 510772 Sam. 510773 the best of the best Pablo 510774

[Eric Brown]

People actually make money selling wooden products. I've been building all my life to some degree and never sold anything for profit. The junk I've seen that actually sells, so they say, cutting boards at the top of the list. What a m8nd numbing way to make your money back. Seriously, I walked by a booth at a craft show and the guy had the boards and wine stoppers and all this woodcraft marketed stuff. Nobody even slowed down. What's the truth? What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?

Question: What type of work do you want to do? Some people can't handle case work because of size/weight. Some must use power tools for joinery. Some don't have a lathe. If you work in a garage weather might be an issue. Transporting finished pieces or shipping them? So Richard, do you have any limitations?

[Andrew Hughes]

I believe there is a way around earning prestige if someone doesn’t already possess it.
Collaboration through a guild were woodworkers come together and seek out beauty through hard truth. What’s good design and what’s garbage.
Its not difficult to learn techniques and understand woods. Getting around individualistic beauty is the problem.
My wife thinks all my work is the best in the world. Not everyone is my wife.
Good Luck

[Jim Koepke]

What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?

The hard part of making a living out of anything is it can involve losing the joy found in doing something you love.

You may have to work when you don't want to work.

You have to look and see what others are making. You have to investigate to find what people in your area are wanting to purchase and how much they are willing to pay.

I used to sell my wares at a local Farmers Market. It didn't make much money. Here are a few of the things I sold:

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Other sellers sold whirligigs, ice chest cabinets and bird houses. City dwellers are looking for different things than people who live in a rural area. There will be some cross overs, that is where the cutting boards come in.

I kept a page from a competitor's catalog to show folks what a potting bench would cost them:

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This was from about ten years ago, prices have likely changed.

Potting benches were one of my best selling items. It got to a point for me to try and have the parts to build two on hand so if one sold it could be replaced before the next market day.

The boxy item under the top of the bench is a box that holds a plastic tub for dumping or holding soil. It is covered by a section of the top that lifts off. The bench was made using wood sized to make the top, shelf and legs without any waste. That is important when making things, less waste = more profit.

Here is the build thread for a potting bench > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?227535

The item sitting on the bench is a box that holds plastic shopping bags. It is a handy item for folks with dogs. The ribbed area at the bottom is a drawer.

The sitting benches did okay. The ones with the hinged top sold better. People like hidden storage.

Another item that sold well was Adirondack chairs:

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This bench didn't sell, it is still in our yard and gets used at times.

Single seats sell well in pairs. At Farmers Markets and Craft Fairs you can often close the sale by negotiating the delivery cost. Offering a price drop, if they can get it home without you, will get them to start dialing for friends with a pick-up truck.

jtk

[Richard Hutchings]

Question: What type of work do you want to do? Some people can't handle case work because of size/weight. Some must use power tools for joinery. Some don't have a lathe. If you work in a garage weather might be an issue. Transporting finished pieces or shipping them? So Richard, do you have any limitations?

My self imposed limitation would be sheet goods. I'd rather handplane a twisted 2x. I have a lathe and made a bunch things for Christmas presents in the past. Inside out ornaments was my favorite. I l8ke to keep things small as there's no entrance to my shop except through the house. I can't stand in front of a lathe this year but I will do that again next year and try the market for them.

[Jim Koepke]

I can't stand in front of a lathe this year but I will do that again next year and try the market for them.

Some of the items that sold well were made with my lathe. It was easy to turn a piece that could be sawn to make a spoon blank.

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In the last image is an item that was carved into an owl. Some people are really into owls.

Be sure to research your wood to make sure it is safe for food contact.

I also made honey dippers and an item called a spurtle. A spurtle is an item of Scottish heritage for stirring oatmeal and soups.

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This is a little different than the standard spurtle. Consult Dr. Google for more information.

Kelso and Longview are adjoining cities and Kelso is named after Kelso, Scotland.

From Wikipedia:


Kelso was founded by Peter W. Crawford, a Scottish surveyor, who, in 1847, took up the first donation land claim on the Lower Cowlitz River. Crawford platted a townsite which he named after his home town of Kelso, Scotland.

Just about everyone uses wooden spoons. They can be bought for a few bucks up to the prices like $80 that some artisans receive for theirs with added embellishments.

jtk

[Richard Coers]

The key to making money is make what they ask for, not what you want to build. I've been selling for 40 years. Made it an official business in 1988 as a part time legal business.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

As Richard says "Make what they ask for". This is why I dig ditches, clean gutters, re-caulk the bathtub, fix chairs, and occasionally get to make something nice.

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[David Carroll]

As a young man (mid 20s) I had a few ventures that made me beer money, that was about it. I lived in a College town (Amherst, MA) I worked for a News dealer/Stationer who also sold College supplies and clothing. I talked the owner into letting me sell small unfinished wooden furniture items through the store. Small bookshelves, bedside tables, foot lockers, and crates (the size of a milk crate, but made of wood). These sold pretty steadily when new students came in every fall. Another popular items were pledge paddle blanks. That lasted until the Fraternities were disenfranchised because of a hazing incident.

But my biggest score were wooden toys. One Christmas I made a dozen wooden tops, basically a 3/8-inch sharpened dowel inserted and glued into a commercial wooden toy wheel and painted pretty colors. I had a basket of them near the cash register and they sold steadily during the beginning of the holiday season, right after Thanksgiving. I think they sold for $3.50 and I got $2.50. One day the salesman from Carridi toys came by (they sold toys and novelties to us for resale). The salesman said he thought he could sell a lot of them if I could sell them for $2.00 and get him 300 pieces by December 1st. I agreed and he took them all. A week later he called me and said they all sold and he was sure he could sell another 300 pieces.

I worked my backside off, made another trip to Basketville up in Vermont to buy more wheels (they only had 200 left) and managed to get them all done. He was very happy and I made $1000.00 which was a fortune to me back in 1985. We decided to go big the next year.

Fast forward to the next year. I bought the supplies to make 500 pieces late in November and another 500 later if he wanted them. I supplied the first consignment and after a couple of weeks he came back and said that he was only able to move about 150. I guess we'd flooded the market and the novelty was gone. I still have some of those wheels!

I wonder if the same thing will happen with fancy cutting boards and wooden spoons. So many guys are making them and once everyone has one or three, then they stop moving. Particularly when some enterprising person finds out that some company in Asia will make them by the container load and flood the market.

I was left with a bad taste in my mouth about trying to make a living making wooden toys.

DC

[Maurice Mcmurry]

David, You had some fun and learned a lot. Location and timing certainly play a role in successful marketing. It boiled down to hard work, which has been my experience with making anything.

[Keegan Shields]

From what I’ve observed, it isn’t the actual woodworking that separates the most successful furniture makers from the rest. It’s their marketing and branding.

Know what your good at, and hire out the rest.

[Jim Koepke]

From what I’ve observed, it isn’t the actual woodworking that separates the most successful furniture makers from the rest. It’s their marketing and branding.

Know what your good at, and hire out the rest.

Good observation Keegan. Crafts fairs can be fun. If you are not willing to travel all over the place and treat it like a full time job it isn't going to make a lot of money. My farmers market experience wasn't much better as a once a week sales effort.

One needs to make things other people are willing to sell for you. The problem with that is they want a significant cut to put your work on their floor(s).

When I lived in California there were maybe a half dozen nurseries close enough for me to possibly sell potting benches. Now the closest one is about an hour drive. Our local nursery closed a few years back.

Other than that you might have to sell out of your shop/home. Then there is the cost of making people aware of your product.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I have had to decide if I am woodworking for love or for money. It might be possible to do both, for a very few top end makers at the zenith of their careers. We do have at least one user here who is running a financially successful cabinet shop, the one I am thinking of is back east somewhere, Long Island maybe; and he seems to be happy. Pretty high energy guy, his posts read like machine gun bursts, short, to the point, effective tacka-tacka-tacka. I am happy for him that he seems to be happy.

For me to make money in woodworking in Fairbanks, Alaska right now I would have to use tools I don't want to use to build projects I don't want to build. If I was committed the smartest thing I could do would be to move to the lower 48 so I could get at a bigger pool of customers.

I do have a number of wooden cooking implements, and they turn over steadily. I dearly love my wooden spatulas from a shi-shi store down in Los Angeles that were made, I think, from Limousin Oak grown in France. But you know something? Good old North American white oak makes perfectly good turners, spoons and spatulas.

I did recently by a wok. It is a great way to make something fast and hot and pretty healthy. The wok tools I have been able to find in Fairbanks don't make me happy. I am about to go on that website named after a big river in South America looking for wooden wok tools and my expectation is I am never going to head out to my shop to make something enough better to bother at a reasonable price/cost.

To me, this is where the rubber meets the road for the OP:


What can I learn to build out of wood that someone might actually want at a price that covers the hours and materials?

One problem here is a thing that sells well this year may be headed for the landfill ten years from now. One possibility is bird houses. I am not one of "those people" myself, but I try to stay in reasonably good alignment with the outdoors. We have been seeing a new species of bird, never seen in Alaska before, right regular now. But there aren't any built houses for the new species, because they have never been seen here before.

The trouble with inexpensive things (spatula, birdhouse) is there is someone (or ten someones) out there who can clobber me on price, every time, once the market is identified.

I have the line "time and materials" bouncing around my brain box now. The technicians maintaining my motor vehicles have been getting flat rate time + materials for a few decades now.

The one I keep coming back to is well built housing. Not headed for architecture awards housing, just well built. Imagine a 25 year old client, tragic accident, spinal cord injury, cash settlement, 350# powered wheelchair, owns a vacant lot. The goal is a house the client can live in for the rest of their life. This client is not looking for a contractor grade house, and they know they are going to have to pay a little more to have good work done.

If I have any other ideas I will stop back by.

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

I remember your potting bench build, and I followed the build with great interest. A friend built a somewhat similar one a few years ago.

Now that I finally have a place for a garden, and a water bill I can afford, I may build something similar in the future. (Where we used to live my first water bill was $140, if I remember correctly, and we could not afford that, so I gave up gardening for 30+ years until we move here.) I will have to review your build.

Regards,

Stew

[Stew Denton]

I think the "Name" factor of the builder is important in a lot of things. I was a member of a fly fishing site for years, and was one of the recognized tiers on that bulletin board. One of the guys, extremely well known, had written several books on tying, and taught classes that were eagerly sought. He was definitely extremely well known, and top fly shops sold his flies and specifically listed the flies under his name as the tier. He had a specific style of fly. He got several times as much for his flies as other extremely good, but not well known tiers, got. The fly shops also charged a lot more for his flies than those of unknown guys.

I am certain that trout regarded the difference between his flies and those of other tiers with a yawn.

Regards,

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

I remember your potting bench build, and I followed the build with great interest. A friend built a somewhat similar one a few years ago.

Now that I finally have a place for a garden, and a water bill I can afford, I may build something similar in the future.

Glad to hear, hope to see some images of your work.


I think the "Name" factor of the builder is important in a lot of things.

There is a word for this, provenance.


provenance
noun
the police were suspicious about the provenance of the paintings: origin, source, place of origin; birthplace, spring, wellspring, fount, roots, history, pedigree, derivation, root, etymology

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

Famous woodworkers are not famous because they are better than everyone else.
People think that they are better because they are famous.

This applies to all things that are not measurable.

The fastest runner is not difficult to determine.
The best woodworker....not so much.
We determine how good a woodworker is by how well their marketing campaign is going, how many people are dropping their name, how many magazines are writing about them etc.

No famous woodworker was ever measured in any way other than how famous they were.

People are like sheep and easily led, we all like famous people, we all like what famous people do, we all think they made the decision on our own. We are all wrong! We are all under the influence!

[Keegan Shields]

Famous woodworkers are not famous because they are better than everyone else.
People think that they are better because they are famous.

This applies to all things that are not measurable.

The fastest runner is not difficult to determine.
The best woodworker....not so much.
We determine how good a woodworker is by how well their marketing campaign is going, how many people are dropping their name, how many magazines are writing about them etc.

No famous woodworker was ever measured in any way other than how famous they were.

People are like sheep and easily led, we all like famous people, we all like what famous people do, we all think they made the decision on our own. We are all wrong! We are all under the influence!

They are often better at marketing themselves and building a brand - which is an essential part of building a successful business. Often they capitalized on a lucky break, while also working their behinds off.

The biggest mistake I see with the struggling craftspeople I’ve known is they don’t understand why their customers are buying their goods. People buy something as much for the story of its origin as the quality/features/design. The craftspeople also don’t make enough profit to invest in really great marketing. 30% gross margin just isn’t enough.

And finally, to emphasize Jim’s great point - you need to build what your customers want, not only what you like to build. Or, you need to find the right customers who do like what you make - and hopefully they can afford to buy your wares at 50%+ gross margin.

[Mark Hennebury]

I remember years ago about an investigative report that found that a very prestigious company in England was selling expensive 17th century French antique furniture that they found was made a couple of hundred miles away in England in the 20 century. All fake reproductions, but people paid for the feeling not the furniture. why tell them the truth and spoil it all?



They are often better at marketing themselves and building a brand - which is an essential part of building a successful business. Often they capitalized on a lucky break, while also working their behinds off.

The biggest mistake I see with the struggling craftspeople I’ve known is they don’t understand why their customers are buying their goods. People buy something as much for the story of its origin as the quality/features/design. The craftspeople also don’t make enough profit to invest in really great marketing. 30% gross margin just isn’t enough.

And finally, to emphasize Jim’s great point - you need to build what your customers want, not only what you like to build. Or, you need to find the right customers who do like what you make - and hopefully they can afford to buy your wares at 50%+ gross margin.

[Jim Koepke]

you need to build what your customers want, not only what you like to build.

Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

Ikea, Walmart. etc...

QUOTE=Jim Koepke;3284513]Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

jtk[/QUOTE]

[Keegan Shields]

Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

As this applies to furniture, (among many other things) the large companies do this better, so it’s best not to compete. Without the economies of scale, cheap East Asian labor, and heavy capitalization, a solo/small furniture makers best (and only reasonable) bet is to go to the high-end market where customers will pay more for your product’s unique story.

Of course finding and connecting with high-end customers is a whole different challenge.

[Chris Parks]

Contrary to most opinion here when I was selling dust extraction equipment it always astonished me how many customers were small commercial workshops that make a living out of woodworking of various types. I had an old customer call me last week because his VFD committed suicide and it has been many years since I have spoken to him. I had at least three customers who only did eye wateringly expensive tables and they seemed to do alright as well.

[Mark Wedel]

What got me into woodworking was that I wanted some display cabinets for miniatures, and I could not really find anything out their commercially that liked. So making my own gets me exactly what I want. I can imagine that is a fair amount of what US woodworking shops are doing is likely this custom work - someone wants a table that is a certain size to fit into a specific space. It is going to be expensive, but the person wanting it is willing to pay for it, vs an off the shelf (but relatively cheap) solution that isn't quite what they want.
But it is going to take quite a bit of effort to establish such a business - before someone is going to plunk down a bunch of money for that custom work, they are going to want to see examples of what you have done so can understand the quality and detail they are getting. And running such a business may have a considerable amount of time not doing the actual woodwork, but providing quotes, going over details of the design, contracts, etc.
I know I'm never going to do commercial woodworking - the closest I might ever get is if a friend asks 'could I make this for them', and I might come up with something. Or if I make a lot of something and have excess to sell off (in which case I already have the product - up to the public to decide if they want to buy it for the price I set).

[George Yetka]

I can agree with you to an extent. I like making boards they are quick and easy and dont require a ton of time to produce. I work 70 hours a week and have 2 small kids so time is limited, cutting boards are something I can spend a few hours a week in the garage and actually accomplish. If you work a couple of these events a year you can possibly do OK. If you work strictly with cutoffs you can be profitable. There are some guys out there getting 500 a board. Devo for instance. I couldnt sell 12 x 18 edge grain boards for 70 so I gave up.

Few people want something built by hand or more accurately few people want to pay for something built by hand. If they can get a fake teak board built oversees and finger jointed together for $30, they will buy that

[Jimmy Harris]

It's like any hobby. There's no money to be made in it. A hobby, by definition, is designed to occupy your free time and resources. Making money, is what a job is for. And hardly anyone likes their job (except for those who don't like their personal lives or can't be honest with themselves), which is why you get paid to do it. If your company could find someone willing to do your job for free, trust me, they would. But your job sucks, so they have to pay someone to do it. And the harder it is to find someone who can and will do the work, the more value the worker has. Everyone wants to play for a living. Which is why having fun doesn't typically pay well, unless you're in the top 0.00001%, like a professional athlete.

But there are people who make money off of woodwork. Cabinet makers can make a decent living. Also, custom furniture makers. But again, it's a business, not a hobby, if you're making money. And like any business, it's not about doing what you like, but about assessing the market and filing a niche that's missing. Business isn't about making stuff. It's about making money. Which means you'll need to focus most of your time on networking, building contacts and relationships, and developing your brand. You need to treat it like a business, which means no fun (kind of).

You can build the most beautiful chair in the world, and it'll still be hard to sell it for more than it costs to make it. But, if you build someone the chair they designed, they'll likely pay a lot more for it, because it's what they wanted, and not what you wanted. And, if you can get your chair published in a magazine or on the display floor of a high-end furniture store, it'll command a lot more money. Why? Because people are dumb and don't know what they want. But if they're told this is what they want, they'll believe they want it. So you have to make what they want, one way or another, if you want to profit off of it.

It's all supply and demand. So you either have to win on the supply side or win on the demand side. Either way, you're creating something they can't get anywhere else, which is why they'll pay more for it. And making something you like that's not that different from everything else out there, just isn't a smart way to run a business.

[Stew Denton]

I should have added that at the time, I made a little over half what the plant technicians were making, and we were buying a house, so we could not afford much at the time. Also, I soon discovered that we had a strong hot dry south west wind in the summer since we had nothing south of us to block the wind. That made it very difficult to grow anything anyway.

Stew

[chuck van dyck]

As a 38 year old with kid, mortgage, and business in NYC I was gonna share my thought, but Jimmy nailed it. If you want to make make money, architectural millwork pays well, thats what I do. But its hard to maintain a love for it as it destroys your body in the field, and if you’re busy enough to be stuck in the office, well whats the fun in that?
There’s a rustic modern thing happening right now that seems to sell well. I make a lot of turned items and it seems the more tool texture the better it all moves. Tear out is never okay, but a clean plane track or gouged texture reminds people this was not machined. My advice on small market items is don’t put yourself in diminishing returns territory by sanding for hours and applying 10 coats of varnish. Remove sanding all together if you can. Otherwise just embrace it and plug in the belt sander and get it done.


It's like any hobby. There's no money to be made in it. A hobby, by definition, is designed to occupy your free time and resources. Making money, is what a job is for. And hardly anyone likes their job (except for those who don't like their personal lives or can't be honest with themselves), which is why you get paid to do it. If your company could find someone willing to do your job for free, trust me, they would. But your job sucks, so they have to pay someone to do it. And the harder it is to find someone who can and will do the work, the more value the worker has. Everyone wants to play for a living. Which is why having fun doesn't typically pay well, unless you're in the top 0.00001%, like a professional athlete.

But there are people who make money off of woodwork. Cabinet makers can make a decent living. Also, custom furniture makers. But again, it's a business, not a hobby, if you're making money. And like any business, it's not about doing what you like, but about assessing the market and filing a niche that's missing. Business isn't about making stuff. It's about making money. Which means you'll need to focus most of your time on networking, building contacts and relationships, and developing your brand. You need to treat it like a business, which means no fun (kind of).

You can build the most beautiful chair in the world, and it'll still be hard to sell it for more than it costs to make it. But, if you build someone the chair they designed, they'll likely pay a lot more for it, because it's what they wanted, and not what you wanted. And, if you can get your chair published in a magazine or on the display floor of a high-end furniture store, it'll command a lot more money. Why? Because people are dumb and don't know what they want. But if they're told this is what they want, they'll believe they want it. So you have to make what they want, one way or another, if you want to profit off of it.

It's all supply and demand. So you either have to win on the supply side or win on the demand side. Either way, you're creating something they can't get anywhere else, which is why they'll pay more for it. And making something you like that's not that different from everything else out there, just isn't a smart way to run a business.

[chuck van dyck]

Currentflowwoodwork.com this is the story I push and deeply believe in. Im obsessed with tripod furniture. I will sell more stools than you because it’s my obsession, not yours. Find something that excites you and write fact and fantasy to create a world you feel good about. At least some people will dig it. You’re gonna hafta do a lot of talkin though. No one wants to buy from someone unwilling to engage.

[Charles Edward]

There are fine furniture makers that make a living making furniture. You won't find them on discussion boards, in magazines, or offering woodworking instruction 'in between commissions' to paying hobbyists.

They're too busy making.

They know that their customers are not other woodworkers. They're delighted you don't know who they are, because they wouldn't have time for you in the first place, and validation comes from the work and making a living from it, not from adoring subscribers to some magazine gasping its last breath.

The people you see in magazines aren't even close to the tip of the iceberg and in fact might be some of the least talented people around, comparatively speaking. Don't shrink your world unnecessarily. Gallery owners in large cities, employees of Sotheby's, Christie's, etc. know who these people are. You don't, because you think Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking, and the people who have time to appear in them, are the be-all and end-all when in fact they aren't even close. Many, if not most, don't have websites because they have virtually nothing to gain from one, they're busy enough as it is, and don't have time for tire-kickers who could afford the work only in their dreams.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Note to self, "Don't shrink your world unnecessarily.". I am going to pin that to a wall in the shop and try hard to spend time out there.

[Warren Mickley]

There are fine furniture makers that make a living making furniture. You won't find them on discussion boards, in magazines, or offering woodworking instruction 'in between commissions' to paying hobbyists.

They're too busy making.

They know that their customers are not other woodworkers. They're delighted you don't know who they are, because they wouldn't have time for you in the first place, and validation comes from the work and making a living from it, not from adoring subscribers to some magazine gasping its last breath.

The people you see in magazines aren't even close to the tip of the iceberg and in fact might be some of the least talented people around, comparatively speaking. Don't shrink your world unnecessarily. Gallery owners in large cities, employees of Sotheby's, Christie's, etc. know who these people are. You don't, because you think Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking, and the people who have time to appear in them, are the be-all and end-all when in fact they aren't even close. Many, if not most, don't have websites because they have virtually nothing to gain from one, they're busy enough as it is, and don't have time for tire-kickers who could afford the work only in their dreams.

Do you still operate "Llanfair Studios"?

[Tom M King]

I've seen good short runs from such fine woodworkers, but have never seen one successful long term through good and bad economic times.

[andy bessette]

I manage to make a living customizing yachts. Your woodworking skills must satisfy some of the fussiest people on the planet.

[Chris Parks]

There are fine furniture makers that make a living making furniture. You won't find them on discussion boards, in magazines, or offering woodworking instruction 'in between commissions' to paying hobbyists.

They're too busy making.

They know that their customers are not other woodworkers. They're delighted you don't know who they are, because they wouldn't have time for you in the first place, and validation comes from the work and making a living from it, not from adoring subscribers to some magazine gasping its last breath.

The people you see in magazines aren't even close to the tip of the iceberg and in fact might be some of the least talented people around, comparatively speaking. Don't shrink your world unnecessarily. Gallery owners in large cities, employees of Sotheby's, Christie's, etc. know who these people are. You don't, because you think Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking, and the people who have time to appear in them, are the be-all and end-all when in fact they aren't even close. Many, if not most, don't have websites because they have virtually nothing to gain from one, they're busy enough as it is, and don't have time for tire-kickers who could afford the work only in their dreams.

Charles sums up what has been my experience. I know one who is making an excellent living and never has any shortage of work nearly all of it large stuff the average WW would not tackle. They are out there but you don't see them.

[Chuck Hill]

I wonder I f it is that younger people just have no life experience with things built with a quality that last generations. Now it’s all buy it use it. It breaks, throw it away buy a new one. Everything is ephemeral, so why spend more?

[Rob Luter]

I wonder I f it is that younger people just have no life experience with things built with a quality that last generations. Now it’s all buy it use it. It breaks, throw it away buy a new one. Everything is ephemeral, so why spend more?

That hits the nail on the head. To many out there it's a disposable world.

[Tom Beltran]

Currentflowwoodwork.com this is the story I push and deeply believe in. Im obsessed with tripod furniture. I will sell more stools than you because it’s my obsession, not yours. Find something that excites you and write fact and fantasy to create a world you feel good about. At least some people will dig it. You’re gonna hafta do a lot of talkin though. No one wants to buy from someone unwilling to engage.

I saw that with a neighbor, who made one thing, but had it down to a science. When I started working in my first rented shop space in 1979, my neighbor who was renting a space next to me, made redwood signs bearing the last name of the occupants of a home, which was meant to hang outside. He went to craft fares, took orders which were apparently paid up front, return to his shop, make, ship, and start over. He would make stacks of the signs every day. He had very little equipment, all craftsman tools - a radial arm saw, vacuum, hand belt sander, router, and a guide system to rout letters. And those signs were the only thing he made. He cut the redwood board to size, routed the letters, sprayed spray can black paint on the front, sanded the paint off the surface, leaving the black letters, sprayed clear lacquer, and he was done! He had a tremendous work ethic, and seemed happy, and made a living doing it. Apparently, he found something that worked, if not excited him, and this was also apparently better than other options available to him.

[Mark Wedel]

One thought about younger people wanting cheaper stuff - until they get to the point where they own a house and settle down, they might just not want the hassle of moving around big and heavy pieces of furniture. And until they are in a semi permanent residence, investing significant amount of money in a piece of furniture which may just not work in their next residence may not be very tempting.
I certainly know that some people, when doing a long distance move, find it easier (maybe not cheaper) to sell all their old stuff, and then just buy new (cheap) stuff at their new place, vs hiring movers, ending up with some things they don't need, and still needing to buy some other things they do need.
It might be that after these people have lived for a while in their new residence, they start investing in nicer/better quality/more expensive furniture since they know they will use it for a while. Sort of like how some people deal with tools - buy the cheap one first, figure out what you like/don't like/need from the tool, and then buy the expensive one that meets all those requirements.

[mike stenson]

It's not just younger people. Full grown, older than me, adults have baked heavily and then complained that I would charge them more than they would pay at Walmart for a piece. It's the same reason people balk at the cost of well made tools, or really anything.

Quantity trumps quality in the consumer marketplace.

[Jim Koepke]

It's not just younger people. Full grown, older than me, adults have baked heavily and then complained that I would charge them more than they would pay at Walmart for a piece. It's the same reason people balk at the cost of well made tools, or really anything.

Quantity trumps quality in the consumer marketplace.

Most of the time my tools are purchased to last. A few years back a fuel pump pressure gauge was purchased at Harbor Freight because it was likely only going to be used once in my lifetime.

If one wants quality at a discount, get up early on the weekends and comb the estate & yard sales then hit the flea markets. I have found many quality tools in those venues.

The majority of my woodworking tools were purchased second hand. When buying my first thought is if an item can be sold for as much or even more than what a seller is asking. During my more active buying days it was a regular habit of mine to keep track of auction prices.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Contrary to most opinion here when I was selling dust extraction equipment it always astonished me how many customers were small commercial workshops that make a living out of woodworking of various types. I had an old customer call me last week because his VFD committed suicide and it has been many years since I have spoken to him. I had at least three customers who only did eye wateringly expensive tables and they seemed to do alright as well.

There is truth here. The business I think of as my one and only local purveyor of hardwoods is actually a millwork shop. They recently finished a re-org on the showroom. I took a class there last weekend to meet other folks interested in woodworking. Of 4 paying students, I was the only one that showed up for the class, so I had a couple hours one on one with the shop owner - but it is clear to me the showroom has been re-organized to act as inventory storage for the shop in the back. Everything in the back is 3 phase / 220 volt, except for the Sawstop tablesaw running on I think 20amp/ 220volt single phase. The owner has zero time left over to participate here.

In the showroom there are thousands of lineal feet of standard moldings in various woods, but really that is just 'something to do' for the part time employee when there isn't a custom job to be done.

The dust collector is outdoors, and easily 30 feet tall. At ground level is a RORO (roll on roll off) dumpster standard container size but maybe 3/4 of standard tall. The cyclone on that beast is 20 feet tall easy. The glue up room is 3 walls and open to the shop on the fourth side. The table in the middle is 8x8(ish) feet, and the three solid walls are all clamp clamp clamp with two small windows. I asked the owner if he had enough clamps and he said , "No, I need a lot more clamps." So we got that going for us, not even the pros have enough clamps.

The barrier to entry is the startup capital. Besides the dust collector, there are 3 planers at >24" that run on 3 phase 220, and the jointer. Then jointer is from 1909, no idea if the motor is original. The trouble is the fence goes out of square every time it is moved, and the outfeed table sags low to the right. There are many shims on the outfield table already. At the pace of that business, there is no option for the shop to be down while the jointer is rebuilt. When the new backordered (3 phase 220 volt) jointer is delivered, the 1909 jointer will be forklifted out to the barn, the new jointer comes in, the old jointer goes on CL, the shop stays open. And there is a shaper bigger than a dishwasher. And a flat bed sander at like 48x96 inches. Blast gates all over the place. And a finishing room.

If I had the money I could order all the interior trim for a 5k sqft home tomorrow morning and it would be ready Friday if they weren't working on someone else's millwork already next week.

The main thing I see about this business is the owner operator, and his wife/ bookkeeper and the sweating part timer all working. They are working with wood, but they are working hard. I am a hobbyist playing with wood. I already have a thing I work at to make money, and I am content to keep wood playing as a hobby of mine.

[Jim Koepke]

In the showroom there are thousands of lineal feet of standard moldings in various woods, but really that is just 'something to do' for the part time employee when there isn't a custom job to be done.

Many years ago there was a story on the radio about a small cabinet shop. When things were slow the owner had the workers build "rat boxes." These were small cages for rats used in a medical lab. The lab was a regular customer and would order up hundreds at a time. Instead of waiting for orders, the owner would build them ahead of time when things were slow. When an order came in they might have to build a few more, but the bulk of the order was in storage.

Many years ago my employment was in a print shop. Things were often slow at the beginning of the year. We would print up Christmas cards during this time. We always worked a little slower on those because we knew if new jobs didn't start coming in we would have a layoff for a week or two.

The moral of these stories is to have some nonessential work to fill the day during the slow times.

jtk