Additional Sealant for Pressure Treated Lumber?

[Thomas McCurnin]

I've got a well head cabinet/enclosure to make which is in a remote location, about a 2 mile hike through the mountains without any trails. I've spent a few hours making measurements, and we will likely make this in sections, and strap them to our backs and assemble it in the field. There is no electricity there and it is very rough terrain, making footings or site building is not an option, we just have to put this thing on the dirt and its back side against the mountain. It will rot, I get that. Our existing one was heavily painted and has lasted since 1980, but it is rotted.

The plan is to use PT lumber, prime it at least twice, and a color coat with about 3 coats, and I will use an expensive paint like Sherman Williams or Dunn Edwards.

But the bottom and back will soon be buried in muck.

Is there an additional sealant to the bottom and back I should consider? I'm thinking multiple coats of Flex Seal or a similar product. I assume I place this over the primed and painted cabinet at the bottom and back.

Any other suggestions?

[Doug Garson]

Have you considered making it from PVC or some other plastic that won't rot?

[Bill Dufour]

Maybe use plastic shutter panels as walls.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

I would suggest rock and mortar.
Bill D

[Thomas McCurnin]

To build the entire structure which is 4x3x3 with a lid out of stone and mortar would take 15+ bags of mortar, each weighing 60 lbs, and you guys would hike 2 miles carrying a mortar hoe, mortar box and a dozen bags of mortar? OK, you are in better shape than I am. And just building a footing doesn't help much as the well head comes out of the mountain horizontally, so any structure has to sit flush with the side of the mountain, up against it, covered in debris and when wet, muck.

Nah, I'm building this out of wood. The other one lasted forty years. My question is sealing pressure treated lumber to enhance its protection against rot where it is direct contact with soil.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I've always used Black Jack - either straight or cut with mineral spirits.

Flex Seal should work - but - the cost of it is up there.

[Brian Runau]

Would coating the surfaces exposed to dirt with black tar or tar paper (sealed) make any difference?

[Alex Zeller]

If you use PT make sure it's the better ground contact rated version. I would also try to find some that's had time to dry. There's a lot of weight difference between wet stuff and dry.

[Lee Schierer]

The plan is to use PT lumber, prime it at least twice, and a color coat with about 3 coats, and I will use an expensive paint like Sherman Williams or Dunn Edwards.

But the bottom and back will soon be buried in muck.

Is there an additional sealant to the bottom and back I should consider? I'm thinking multiple coats of Flex Seal or a similar product. I assume I place this over the primed and painted cabinet at the bottom and back.

Any other suggestions?

I agree with the others that you should let the lumber dry before you attempt to put any type of protective coating on it.

You need to avoid the "buried in muck" part of your plan. Instead you need to provide as much drainage as possible around the base. The lumber will last longer if it is allowed to dry out.

I built this barn over 40 years ago using untreated Hemlock boards for the siding. The siding is still going strong and will likely last another 20-30 years, 510250

Perhaps use a combination of materials. Use materials that don't rot for ground contact and treated lumber for the above grade portions. Metal roofs are known to last over 50 years.

[Tom M King]

Treated lumber today is different than the treated from 40 years ago. Putting any coating on the part below ground is just like putting it in a bag, so it will probably last less time than if it was bare. Drainage would help, but I have no idea what the ground is like there. I've found out the new treated process ground contact posts last less than half as long in concrete as they do bare, so wouldn't expect much difference with any kind of coating.

I have found out that Sherwin-Williams Rain Refresh is great stuff.

[roger wiegand]

Find UC4B rated treated lumber for at least the in-ground portions of the structure. It has half again more preservative than the more common UC4A "ground contact" treated lumber and it suggested for "critical components or difficult replacement". I think your situation qualifies. At least it will last long enough that someone else will probably have to do it the next time!

[Jim Becker]

Choose your PT wood carefully. There's "ground contact" and "in ground" ratings. Using the latter for what actually touches the ground, even if it's not "in" the ground (at least initially) might be a good way to help preserve it longer. You may also want to investigate some of the newer preparations available to coat posts that help with additional preservation.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Get the highest retention rating you can find. Some stores call it "Critical Structure Ground Contact". I would not use paint. You can treat your end cuts, and the whole structure for that mater, with copper green wood preservative. If you do not paint it you can re-apply coper green in the future. Copper green is nasty and leaches. I would want to know for sure that it would not contaminate the well. Pine tar, linseed oil and turpentine is a good exterior coating that can be easily renewed.
+1 for the idea of using a plastic material like Azek.
https://azekexteriors.com/products/sheets

I am intrigued by the logistics of your project!

[Bill Dufour]

See my recent thread about ground contact treated 4x4 fence posts rotting off after ten year or less. This is the new improved brown stuff. The 15 year old ones, green, are fine. Get your treated wood and air dry it for a month or two. Then stand the posts upright in a barall full of the preservative or oil. Let soak for several months. Then stand on the the rend and repeat.
What does the local law say about treated wood near water?
Bill D

[Bill George]

My mom when she was alive had a Neighbour with a treated wood basement. I have not seen that house for 30 years so I have no idea if its still standing.


When I was growing up on the farm in the early 1950s there was a spring coming out of a fairly steep hill someone had put a box around it so the cows could drink but it had something like a 2 inch steel pipe driven back into that hill that kept the water clean and headed into that wooden box. You could also build your well head from native store gathered up and held together with mortar with the suggested PVC shutter to keep it dry enough to set up.

Buy, rent or borrow a 4wd ATV to haul your stuff up the mountain. My dad used a two wheel walk behind garden tractor with chains.

[Thomas McCurnin]

It is U.S. Forest Service wilderness and has never been logged or burned yet. 150-200 foot Ponderosa Pines, often only 10-20 feet from eachother, smaller trees, oaks and thorny bushes make up the rest with huge granite boulders and debris from mudslides and rain. Of course, there are old fallen dead trees everywhere, some with trunks 4 feet across. Arroyos (dry creek beds) criss-cross the area It is also at around a 20% grade. No vehicle could ever make it up there, unless a bulldozer preceded it. Walking is a challenge. There is a remnant of a road which was cut in to install the well, but again, fallen trees, live new trees, arroyos, and debris make the road (what is left of it) impassible.

I do like the idea of ground contact pressure treated lumber. My yard has it, but only KDBT (Kiln Dried Before Treatment) and won't cut it, because it has a high moisture contact (they have SawStop saws), so it will shrink like crazy, which is OK for posts, but probably not for a structure. I've heard of KDAT (Kiln Dried After Treatment), but none of the yards have it here. Regular pressure treated is kiln dried at my yard. So I think we are going with that.

The well is forty feet horizontally so any leeching or evaporating sealants will not go near the aquifer.

Given the advice so far, I am back with ordinary pressure treated lumber and sealants, be it paint, black jack, or flex seal. I can wrap the back of the structure where it makes direct contact with the mountain in EPDM rolled roofing membrane. Putting a membrane on the bottom 2x6 seems like it would be futile.

Bear in mind that what was there from 1980 is still there, albeit pretty rotted.



510277510278

[Bill George]

Interesting, so its basically a spring water source gravity feeding someplace downhill as there is no apparent power source.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Cool! You need a few Missouri Mules. They can go anywhere and carry a lot.

other interesting products

2 x 8 x 12' Critical Structural CCA .60 Green Pressure Treated Lumber at Menards® (https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/treated-wood-products/treated-boards-decking-lumber-timbers/2-x-8-critical-structural-cca-60-green-pressure-treated-lumber/1095303/p-1444422496697-c-13124.htm),

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/08/composite-grade-board/

(no title) (https://hillspg.com/pdfs/Perm%20Wood%20Foundation.pdf)

[Thomas McCurnin]

Nope, no electricity for about 2 miles. It is spring fed, and opening up the valves releases a huge torrent of water stored in our mountain from the aquifer. And the amazing thing is that the line goes up hill for about a mile, with a total elevation gain of about 100 feet, all working on suction. So lower cabins using a siphon principal and the aquifer's inherent pressure cause the water to go up hill then down.

We had to drain a storage tank a couple years ago and the lines were dry, and without suction from the lower cabins, the well wouldn't work. So we had to rig up a suction pump to start the siphon principal.

And the water quality? We have bettered city water for bacteria and contaminants by 100%. Just amazing crystal clear clean tasting water. Never been written up by the County Health Department. It is the gold standard for water quality. Then again, we're at about 6,500 feet elevation and the source is spring water and snow melt. We had 10 feet of snow last year.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

My experience has been that at soil level even pressure treated goes to crap in a couple years. Have you considered trex where it contacts the ground or the new plastic materials and sheathing used on sheds etc.

I packed in concrete mix and water to set fence posts. in a remote corner of my property. Only about 100 yds from the tractor on the old logging path and the hauling that stuff wore me out.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Tom, I am enjoying learning about your well. My wife's family has a cabin with the remnants of a very similar system. It had to be drained every winter and has been derelict for 80 years. The water source was a dug well across the road and up the hill on what was the family farm. The cabin has permanent water rights protected by the deed for the property with the well. We would like for the camp to have water again. There is another shallow well close by and down hill. The hand pump for that system is still present.

[Tom M King]

Instead of paint, I would consider wrapping it with stainless steel sheet metal, or even vinyl coated aluminum, especially the top. If I was closer, I'd help you hump stuff up there.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Instead of paint, I would consider wrapping it with stainless steel sheet metal, or even vinyl coated aluminum, especially the top. If I was closer, I'd help you hump stuff up there.

+1 for a metal roof. Find some CCA 60 and wrap it with aluminum with trim coil. CCA is not corrosive to metals.

[Bill Dufour]

Metal might be a magnet for scrappers.
Bill D

[Doug Garson]

Metal might be a magnet for scrappers.
Bill D
Yeah, that's a serious concern considering it is about a 2 mile hike through the mountains without any trails. With 150-200 foot Ponderosa Pines, often only 10-20 feet from each other, smaller trees, oaks and thorny bushes make up the rest with huge granite boulders and debris from mudslides and rain. Of course, there are old fallen dead trees everywhere, some with trunks 4 feet across. Arroyos (dry creek beds) criss-cross the area It is also at around a 20% grade. No vehicle could ever make it up there, unless a bulldozer preceded it. Walking is a challenge. There is a remnant of a road which was cut in to install the well, but again, fallen trees, live new trees, arroyos, and debris make the road (what is left of it) impassible.

I think you could make it out of gold bars and not worry about theft. :D

[Thomas McCurnin]

We were also considering placing the structure on a Railroad Tie base, but that simply won't protect the back of the cabinet which must sit against the mountain/hillside, and it is the back which quite rotten at this point, so that feature was abandoned.

Rains and mudslides, gravel, large rocks, and muck flow down the side which has about a 60% grade. The bottom line is that this mountain, the largest in Southern California at 11,500 feet, is very unforgiving, and this structure just might have to be re-built occasionally.

[Tom M King]

Railroad ties don't last any longer on the ground than treated lumber. For train tracks, they're sitting on a big bed of well draining railroad ballast stone. I can tell you that for a fact. We lined the outside of our Dressage arena with railroad ties just sitting on the ground. In fact, they don't last as long as treated.

[Thomas McCurnin]

We are also considering simply digging out the area and shoring the hillside with stairstep shoring of rocks, plywood, railroad ties and slowly lugging 9" blocks to make a crude retaining wall. This will have to be done over time into next year as we are bumping into snow season. My experience with railroad ties is different, as our cabin has original outdoor stairs made of railroad ties which appear to be near original from the 1930s or 1940s.

[Tom M King]

Your soil must be better draining than ours. Where I had the Dressage arena built, it was cut into a hillside. These railroad ties are sitting on red clay. They were used ones to start with too. I think they're about 20 years old and need to be replaced. They just keep the footing from washing away and serve as the perimeter.

[Jim Becker]

We were also considering placing the structure on a Railroad Tie base, but that simply won't protect the back of the cabinet which must sit against the mountain/hillside, and it is the back which quite rotten at this point, so that feature was abandoned.

Rains and mudslides, gravel, large rocks, and muck flow down the side which has about a 60% grade. The bottom line is that this mountain, the largest in Southern California at 11,500 feet, is very unforgiving, and this structure just might have to be re-built occasionally.

Construction of the little shed aside, you need to do a little ground work behind it to try and redirect most of the moisture moving down the slope toward it or you'll be revisiting this faster than you (or your successors) might prefer.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

How about casting an igloo out of secure set foam? Are rodents active in the area?

Buy expanding foam to set fences, poles and level concrete. (https://www.secureset.net/)

[Walter Mooney]

Thomas, your PT lumber supplier will likely have on hand a sealant that can and should be painted onto every cut of the lumber. It’s primarily for end grain cuts, but can and should be applied to rip faces as well. Different manufacturers have different formulations, but all PT lumber suppliers can sell you their product’s sealant.

I’d recommend that after you design the structure you dry fit it or even completely screw it together to work out any assembly difficulties, or discover one of those ‘there’s something we didn’t think about’ moments, which you don’t want to happen out there in the middle of nowhere!

Best of luck to you

[Tom M King]

Put one of those plastic rock well covers over it. They come in many sizes and colors.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/emsco-group-landscape-rock-natural-sandstone-appearance-large-lightweight-easy-to-install-2181-1-1584285?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1584285&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA0syqBhBxEiwAeNx9NyXLR77jNEd4rv29D7Qw wpjak80QoEXIdDR0EFTncbWgc-UGzZ487xoC2cIQAvD_BwE

[Bill Dufour]

How about fiberglass doors as side panels and a roof.
Bill D

[Doug Garson]

Put one of those plastic rock well covers over it. They come in many sizes and colors.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/emsco-group-landscape-rock-natural-sandstone-appearance-large-lightweight-easy-to-install-2181-1-1584285?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1584285&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA0syqBhBxEiwAeNx9NyXLR77jNEd4rv29D7Qw wpjak80QoEXIdDR0EFTncbWgc-UGzZ487xoC2cIQAvD_BwE
That's an interesting idea, maybe you could make your own using wire mesh covered with fibreglass or hypertufa in modules that could be carried up and assembled on site.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Jeeves the family mule is a livestock guardian rather than a pack animal. Jeeves sure thinks pack mules could help with this project.


https://youtu.be/vIPwgVPki3k?si=vQr7HLJc1FszjHQt

[Thomas McCurnin]

Yep Jim, We've already started up the hill drying to divert rock and mud slides. But this mountain is quite active in that regard, especially after two forest fires.

Check This Out: Same side of the mountain, and this is what we deal with nearly every heavy rain or thawing, its only a 15 second video in our little community. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58SnfEdUGsw

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58SnfEdUGsw)Trying to divert these types of slides is a bit of fool's errand.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58SnfEdUGsw

Yikes! Can you hire a Chinook to air lift some armor plate?

[Allan Dozier]

That looks like what we call a cistern around here but not sure. Anyway, I think the idea of PVC boards is how I would go. They aren't cheap but it would be a one and done. I've been using them more and more on anything exposed to the ground and weather.

[Mel Fulks]

Again …I suggest the old method of gluing on canvas . Available in different weights ,but even the light ‘duck’ will last many years with
a coat of paint or epoxy. Old way was using paint as the adhesive, but I would use a water proof glue or the epoxy paint. The canvas
was used on ships into 19th century.

[Thomas McCurnin]

My outdoor porch floor was T&G 2x4s with canvas glued on it, but I think the modern equivalent, is EPDM rubber roofing membrane which is likewise glued and/or nailed to the substrate.

[Bill Dufour]

I thought pack Llamas were the more PC pack animals, cuter too.
BilL D

[Bill Dufour]

Would a plastic 55 gallon drum work. look at those plastic rubbermaid kids forts that snap together. If keep painted the plastic lasts a long time in the sun. Got an old one piece tub surround kicking around?
Bill D

https://www.littletikes.com/collections/playhouses?sort-by=manual&page=1

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I thought pack Llamas were the more PC pack animals, cuter too.
BilL D

After having several fascinating conversations with a 10th Mountain Division WWII Veterans widow this summer, I am reading about the 10th Mountain Divisions activities during WWII. They used Mules.
Llamas are cute. The family tried a Llama as a livestock guardian as well. It had a rather nasty personality. The Llama went missing one summer. I had the sad misfortune of finding it deceased.

511144 Tale of a 10th Mountain Division Muleskinner | Article | The United States Army (https://www.army.mil/article/68201/tale_of_a_10th_mountain_division_muleskinner#:~:te xt=Thompson%20said%20the%2010th%20Mountain,war%20f ront%20from%20southern%20Italy.)